Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 January 5



Category:English-language education

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Keep & rename.


 * Keep Category:English-language education
 * Rename Category:Language education by language to Category:Education by language (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl  talk  21:47, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:English-language education to Category:.
 * Nominator's rationale: most subcats of Category:Language education by language are probably wrong. "English-language education" refers to education carried out in the english language, but not education of the english language. for example, teaching sci and math in english in malaysia is an aspect of "English-language education", but not education of the language.
 * some subcats correctly reflect this. Category:English-language schools contains english medium schools, but not language schools that teach english. RZuo (talk) 11:44, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  09:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  08:34, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It rather seems that Category:Language education by language should be renamed to Category:Education by language. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep unless a better alternative can be suggested. Like many categories this one is somewhat diffuse in its scope, but that is no harm.  Trying to make categories too precise tends to result in lots of small categories which them have to be merged back.  English-medium Education is the gateway to well-paid work in many parts of India.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * do you know what's being discussed here?
 * Temple University, Japan Campus is "English-language education" or "education in the english language". Wall Street English is "English language education" or "education of the english language".
 * Lycée Français de Los Angeles is "French-language education". Institut Français is "French language education". RZuo (talk) 07:53, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 05:36, 5 January 2023 (UTC) Relisting comment: Tagged Category:Language education by language Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  20:11, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep — and broaden Category:Language education by language to Category:Education by language as suggested. Editors are confused by overly specific distinctions.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * This was relisted (more than twice, contrary to WP:RELIST instructions). I'd have preferred closing keep, and starting a new broader discussion. But now we are discussing:
 * Propose renaming Category:Language education by language to Category:Education by language
 * Note that is using a hyphen ("-language") to distinguish between education in a language and education about a language.
 * William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:56, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Support that, per actual content of the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:27, 6 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment -- There are several kinds of institution for which the present name may be a high level parent:
 * "English-medium education" where the instruction is given in English (or mainly so) where that is not the main language
 * "English language-schools" whose function is to teach English as a second language.
 * "schools teaching in English language", for example in French-speaking Quebec; or in Wales where some schools teach in Welsh
 * Universities teaching their courses in English (for example in Netherlands or Japan), because English is the main language of scientific communication.
 * To some extent these will inevitably overlap. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:07, 8 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Anti-patterns

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: purge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  21:49, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose splitting Category:Anti-patterns to Category:Software engineering anti-patterns and Category:Project management anti-patterns
 * Nominator's rationale: "Anti-pattern" is too vague to be useful on its own. Most readers are probably looking for examples of a specific type of anti-pattern, but this category groups topics that are only vaguely related together. It's also currently a sub-category of multiple software development categories, despite not all the anti-patterns being related to software development, which only makes things more confusing. Zerbu  Talk 08:49, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I have checked a significant number of articles and they were all about software programming. Can you give a few examples of articles that would belong in Category:Project management anti-patterns? I also noted that a number of articles were not about anti-patterns but instead more generally about poor programming habits, where would they go? Marcocapelle (talk) 09:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Instruction creep, Law of the instrument, Shturmovshchina are a few random examples. I suggested splitting because I felt it would be better than just removing articles, but if others feel differently, an alternative could be to rename the category and remove the unrelated articles. As for the articles about poor programming habits, if the consensus is to split, then perhaps they could be moved to a third category (maybe Category:Code smells, since code smell is a common term for poor programming habits). Zerbu  Talk 09:53, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I would remove these three altogether and others as well. The subjects of the articles should be called anti-patterns, and that is more than often not the case. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:42, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps they should be moved to Category:Conflict of interest and Category:Mechanism design with Unintended consequences template added? ··gracefool &#128172; 23:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  08:42, 28 December 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  19:56, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The basic concept of an "anti-pattern" is pretty general, and applies to domains outside of software engineering and project management. E.g. Peter principle, Tick-box culture, Counterproductive work behavior describe anti-patterns in organizational management, though not necessarily using the specific term "anti-pattern". 73.223.72.200 (talk) 02:35, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:10, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * IP user is right, in that concepts are not necessarily using the specific term "anti-pattern", i.e. anti-pattern is not a defining characteristic in many cases. Purge the category and only keep articles for which it actually is defining. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:31, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Purge per Marcocapelle — WP:NOR I've spent a significant portion of my life in software research and engineering, many of these concepts are common, but the term anti-patterns is new to me. Limit the category to those the literature has specifically identified as anti-patterns.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wives of the Beatles
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 January 13%23Category:Wives of the Beatles

Historians of religion
Relisted, see Categories for discussion/Log/2023 January 13%23Historians of religion

Category:National Hockey League venues by team

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  21:56, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting national hockey league venues by team
 * Propose deleting anaheim ducks arenas
 * Propose deleting arizona coyotes arenas
 * Propose deleting boston bruins arenas
 * Propose deleting buffalo sabres arenas
 * Propose deleting calgary flames arenas
 * Propose deleting carolina hurricanes arenas
 * Propose deleting hartford whalers arenas
 * Propose deleting chicago blackhawks arenas
 * Propose deleting colorado avalanche arenas
 * Propose deleting dallas stars arenas
 * Propose deleting detroit red wings arenas
 * Propose deleting edmonton oilers arenas
 * Propose deleting florida panthers arenas
 * Propose deleting los angeles kings arenas
 * Propose deleting montreal canadiens arenas
 * Propose deleting new jersey devils arenas
 * Propose deleting new york islanders arenas
 * Propose deleting new york rangers arenas
 * Propose deleting ottawa senators arenas
 * Propose deleting philadelphia flyers arenas
 * Propose deleting pittsburgh penguins arenas
 * Propose deleting san jose sharks arenas
 * Propose deleting st. louis blues arenas
 * Propose deleting tampa bay lightning arenas
 * Propose deleting toronto maple leafs arenas
 * Propose deleting vancouver canucks arenas
 * Propose deleting washington capitals arenas
 * Nominator's rationale: These are overcategorizations based on venue per WP:OCVENUE "There is no encyclopedic value in categorizing locations by the events or event types that have been held there..." User:Namiba 22:05, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Won't contest this one if it's congruent with (policy) and fair for everyone .. Danielsltt (talk) 22:23, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Upmerge contents into the parent category Category:National Hockey League venues as per the final paragraph of WP:OCVENUE. Flibirigit (talk) 13:20, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * No objection to this.--User:Namiba 20:15, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Merge targets? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  19:50, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Upmerge to all parents, e.g. to Category:Anaheim Ducks, Category:Indoor ice hockey venues in California and Category:Sports venues in Anaheim, California as well as Category:National Hockey League venues. Do Namiba, Danielsltt and Flibirigit think WP:OCVENUE rules out merger to Category:Indoor ice hockey venues in California? I don't agree – an ice hockey arena is a specialist type of venue. – Fayenatic  L ondon 14:37, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, the articles are already in Category:Indoor ice hockey venues in California and other state-related categories. This is why I didn't propose merging to those destinations.--User:Namiba 14:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I checked Tampa Bay and Toronto and all articles in there are also in an indoor ice hockey venue. Nevertheless, there is nothing against adding those as merge targets too, just in case one article is not in an indoor ice hockey venue yet. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:52, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * delete -- I should probably have sampled further than I did, but these appear to be multi-use venues used by the team in question. This fails OCVENUE, probably usually SMALLCAT, as there are less than 5 items.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:14, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete all — if an arena is not yet categorized as an indoor ice hockey venue, somebody else will correct it anyway. Better to be clear and concise that we don't categorize by venue.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Laura Nyro tribute albums
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 January 13%23Category:Laura Nyro tribute albums

Gambling media -> Media about gambling

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  22:00, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Gambling films to Category:Films about gambling
 * Propose renaming Category:American gambling films to Category:American films about gambling
 * Propose renaming Category:Baccarat (card game) films to Category:Films about baccarat
 * Propose renaming Category:Blackjack films‎ to Category:Films about blackjack
 * Propose renaming Category:British gambling films‎ to Category:British films about gambling
 * Propose renaming Category:Indian gambling films‎ to Category:Indian films about gambling
 * Propose renaming Category:Poker films‎ to Category:Films about poker
 * Propose renaming Category:Roulette films to Category:Films about roulette
 * Propose renaming Category:Gambling television shows to Category:Television shows about gambling
 * Propose renaming Category:Gambling in anime and manga to Category:Anime and manga about gambling
 * Propose renaming Category:Blackjack television shows to Category:Television shows about blackjack
 * Propose renaming Category:Poker television shows to Category:Television shows about poker
 * Propose renaming Category:Lottery game shows to Category:Game shows about lotteries
 * Propose renaming Category:British lottery game shows to Category:British game shows about lotteries
 * Propose renaming Category:Irish lottery game shows to Category:Irish game shows about lotteries
 * Propose renaming Category:Lottery game shows in the United States to Category:American game shows about lotteries

William Allen Simpson (talk) 07:40, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Nominator's rationale: Change to more current syntax that emphasizes that the category is for media where the element is a primary factor, not an incidental one. DonIago (talk) 14:59, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Support: The renaming would match the syntax of other categories, like those in Category:Films by topic. Nine hundred ninety-nine (talk) 01:52, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Support with one change: Category:Films about baccarat doesn't need disambiguation. I doubt there are many films about fine crystal. Besides that theoretical category would be capitalized Films about Baccarat anyway. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:53, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Support and agree with Clarity. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:34, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with Clarity's suggestion. I've updated the CfR. DonIago (talk) 13:54, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Baccarat is not capitalized for the game, only for the company. Clarityfiend (talk) 14:48, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, you were the one who used the capital B in your comment from 28 December...I believe I had it as a lowercase b to that point. Would you like me to change it back? DonIago (talk) 21:01, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I've changed it back.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  19:40, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Question: if I understand correctly, the lottery game shows all included the draw of a national or state lottery (e.g. the British ones listed at The National Lottery Draws). Does this really make them about lotteries? Is there a better name, e.g. "Game shows including lottery draws"? – Fayenatic  L ondon 16:17, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm open to other options. When the original discussion that spawned the paradigm shift from "X films" to "Films about X" was ongoing, I'd suggested, as a bit of a compromise option, "Films featuring X", but the feeling was that we needed to be more explicitly clear that X needed to be a primary feature of the film. To me, "including" would have the same issue. I realize "about" is a bit fuzzy too, but for the purposes of consistency and emphasizing the intention, I'm not sure there's a better option. DonIago (talk) 16:40, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Several of the articles described the show as a "lottery game show", which implies that the current category names may be fitting. – Fayenatic  L ondon 17:55, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with dropping them from this batch in the interest of moving things along as well. DonIago (talk) 18:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 07:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Support "films about" per precedent. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:55, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Support — please document this decision in Category names.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Irish Canadian baseball players

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge Timrollpickering (talk) 14:14, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Irish Canadian baseball players to Category:Canadian sportspeople of Irish descent and Category:Canadian baseball players
 * Nominator's rationale: The Irish influence in Canadian sports has been well-documented (see, for example, Gaelic Games Canada but not this particular intersection. Therefore, this intersection fails WP:OCEGRS. User:Namiba 14:12, 5 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:57, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep -- The category has a population of 15, which suggests to me that this is a substantial intersection; hence potentially notable. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:18, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Not every substantial intersection is notable.--User:Namiba 20:56, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 07:43, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 21:35, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.