Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 13

 &lt; July 12 July 14 &gt;

Category:People from Lake Forest, California, by occupation

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting people from lake forest, california, by occupation
 * Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary container category User:Namiba 20:45, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge to Category:People from Lake Forest, California, as I can't see a reason why we should remove the content from that tree. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:36, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge to Category:People from Lake Forest, California.4meter4 (talk) 19:15, 16 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:16th century assassinated French politicians

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Xth century assassinated politicians and Category:Assassinated French politicians. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  13:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging to Category:Assassinated French politicians and Category:18th-century French politicians
 * Propose merging to Category:Assassinated French politicians and Category:19th-century French politicians
 * Propose merging to Category:Assassinated French politicians and Category:16th-century French politicians
 * Nominator's rationale: There are only 30 people in all in and splitting by century is not justified. I again urge User:Thinker78 to reflect before creating more categories: Category:1930s assassinated French politicians is lacking an important parent, viz Category:1930s assassinated politicians. Also Category:20th-century French politicians is hyphenated so I expect Category:20th century assassinated French politicians should also be. (I will leave the more complicated Category:20th-century assassinated French politicians for another nom.)  Oculi (talk) 13:33, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:54, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose What would be the point of merging era-specific categories to a parent which has no specific era in mind? I view the parent category as rather useless, and making navigation harder. Dimadick (talk) 16:06, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I have added other merge targets. Oculi (talk) 16:38, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:16th-century assassinated people and Category:18th-century assassinated people, these weren't politicians, they were nobility and government officials. If renamed this way, the categories should also be re-parented. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:38, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a new trend at cfd where the creation of a completely different super-tree is suggested. Creating and populating would seem an admirable plan which should precede  etc. Petscan finds 111 for Category:16th-century assassinated people. Who is supposed to do this? if the contents of  are not politicians, it would seem to me that 'delete as empty' would be the logical conclusion. Oculi (talk) 22:44, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems you do not dislike the plan. If renamed, this can be listed at WP:CFDMW to get further populated. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, I would support a plan where various experts set up a properly named, parented, templated etc Category:16th-century assassinated people for others to populate and copy to other centuries. (Eg Category:Railway stations in Poland opened in the 1920s is created entirely by the template Railway stations in countryname opened in the YYY0s category header, a thing of rare beauty due to @user:BrownHairedGirl, and any fool can now use this to create say Category:Railway stations in Turkey opened in the 2010s in 2 seconds. And there's a by-year one, a by-century one, and it (or a variant) works for 'closed in' as well.) Oculi (talk) 11:09, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, @Oculi: I hope that any fool is restrained in using that template. It is intended to make it easy to create a series of such categories, not one-offs. My rule-of thumb is that a series should ideally average close to ten articles per category, but that a lower threshold  may work if it doesn't include to much of a long, thin tail.  My absolute minimum average is 5, unless there is a strong prospect of imminent expansion.
 * As to a Category:nth-century assassinated people, it looks like it has only 2 parents, making it simple enough that it probably doesn't need a dedicated template. With Title century and Ordinal, the following markup can be used without modification for each of the AD categories in the series:
 * Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:42, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * OK. 2 slight corrections, within my limited range of abilities: 'people', not peopled;  and we have Category:Assassinated people by century. I have foolishly created a 17th century one (with no pre-existing subcat) which I had better go populate before user:Liz becomes involved. What is WP:CFDMW (Marcocapelle)? One might guess that Title nationality would pluck French from the title:  might be the one. Oculi (talk) 13:06, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That was a typo, I meant WP:CFDWM (Manual Work). Marcocapelle (talk) 20:48, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Further note: the 19th-century category contains two politicians. This can likewise be renamed to Category:19th-century assassinated people, whereas the two politician articles can also be added to Category:Assassinated French politicians and Category:19th-century French politicians per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:17, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Update, meanwhile Category:16th-century assassinated people etc. have been created, which defaults my earlier rename vote to a merge. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:51, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Marcocapelle, I've put a list of potential members on each talk page, eg Category talk:16th-century assassinated people. — Oculi (talk) 23:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Marcocapelle (talk) 04:35, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: @Marcocapelle I think the discussion whether they were politicians or not should be started in the individual talk pages for each one. For instance, the first sentence of Stanislas Marie Adélaïde, comte de Clermont-Tonnerre states that he was, "a French nobleman, military officer, and politician during the French Revolution." I think there is more info in the relevant pages for context that at least a number of them are indeed politicians. The article mentioned indicates that Stanislas Marie Adélaïde was involved in French politics, even being a voting member of the General Assembly of France. That seems to say he was indeed a politician.
 * As such for now I call for those centuries to be merged into
 * Category:19th-century assassinated politicians
 * Category:18th-century assassinated politicians
 * Category:16th-century assassinated politicians.
 * Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 00:26, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Category:16th-century assassinated politicians.
 * Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 00:26, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Ok, let's follow Thinker78's latest alternative for now, and tackle the other issue separately. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:41, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle, so the by centuary assassinated politician category would be the only merge target for each? — Qwerfjkl  talk  12:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you for paying attention! No, they should still be merged to Category:Assassinated French politicians too. (And afterwards articles may be purged on an incidental basis from both merge targets if they are not about a politician.) Marcocapelle (talk) 12:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ukrainian historical regions outside of Ukraine
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Ukrainian historical regions outside of Ukraine

Category:Meta Platforms-related lists

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  13:41, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Meta Platforms-related lists to Category:21st century-related lists and Category:Internet-related lists and Category:Corporation-related lists
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 15:49, 25 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Withdrawing my vote after discussion below. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:03, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: 4 members (2P, 2C) currently. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:33, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Do not merge I have populated the category. UnitedStatesian (talk) 22:08, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Television stations in the Paducah–Cape Girardeau–Harrisburg market
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Television stations in the Paducah–Cape Girardeau–Harrisburg market

Category:Television stations in the Greenville–Spartanburg–Asheville market
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Television stations in the Greenville–Spartanburg–Asheville market

Category:Television stations in the Tri-Cities (Tennessee/Virginia)
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Television stations in the Tri-Cities (Tennessee/Virginia)

Category:Television stations in Grand Rapids, Michigan
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Television stations in Grand Rapids, Michigan

Category:Television stations in the Monroe–El Dorado market
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Television stations in the Monroe–El Dorado market

Category:Television stations in the Mobile–Pensacola market
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Television stations in the Mobile–Pensacola market

Category:Television stations in Scranton, Pennsylvania
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Television stations in Scranton, Pennsylvania

Category:Television stations in the Charleston–Huntington market

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  13:42, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Television stations in the Charleston–Huntington market to Category:Television stations in West Virginia
 * Nominator's rationale: Doesn't make sense to group in a hyphenated market. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 19:47, 25 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:43, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. With regard to Huntington–Charleston, virtually all stations based in Huntington or Charleston are available in both, so they constitute a distinct region usually known by this hyphenated phrase.  Both cities are of comparable size, and they're located about fifty miles apart, in a state where all other cities of comparable size (and all others happen to be smaller—the state's two largest cities are relatively close together) are much further away.
 * As for "West Virginia" being a distinct media market, Huntington–Charleston television stations also extend beyond West Virginia into the Ashland, Kentucky–Ironton, Ohio area, and as far west as Portsmouth, Ohio. But nobody in this area has access to stations in the Wheeling–Steubenville market (which also crosses state lines), or to stations from Beckley, Bluefield, or the eastern panhandle.  West Virginia may seem like a small region that can be treated as a unified whole, but in fact most media markets in West Virginia are distinct and localized, usually overlapping with areas of neighboring states, but not with other areas of West Virginia.  P Aculeius (talk) 15:02, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * There will be all sorts of things that Charleston and Huntington have more in common with each other than with other cities in the same state, that is simply a consequence of drawing arbitrary state borders. It is not meaningful however to have a different geographical category tree for television stations than for any other topic. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:00, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Except that in this instance, there is no distinction between Huntington and Charleston stations—they're identical, and share nothing in common with anywhere else in the state. It's a distinct market that crosses state boundaries—locally known as the "tri-state area" (and I know there are several of these in the U.S.).  It makes sense to have a category for these stations that doesn't include those elsewhere; it's not a huge category, but many, many categories are considerably smaller, and it plainly has usefulness for readers.  If categories in other states are oversized, maybe they would benefit from subcategorization as well.  It makes sense to have categories for New York City that don't include Buffalo just because they're in the same state; I don't know why that wouldn't be desirable for television stations.  P Aculeius (talk) 22:19, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * They are not the same, some are licensed to Charleston, some to Huntington. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:22, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I fail to see the relevance of the locus of their licenses—all of the active stations (and there are only a couple of defunct ones) explicitly serve the Huntington–Charleston market, as well as Ashland, Kentucky and Ironton, Ohio. WSAZ maintains studios in both Huntington and Charleston, and has the largest regional coverage, extending west to Portsmouth, Ohio; WQCW is the CW affiliate owned by WSAZ to serve the same market; WOWK's call letters are for "Ohio, West Virginia, and Kentucky", WCHS is for "Charleston–Huntington", WTSF broadcasts to the Huntington–Charleston market from Ashland, Kentucky, WVAH was deliberately set up to serve both Huntington and Charleston, WPBY (now part of West Virginia Public Broadcasting) is explicitly the Huntington-Charleston affiliate.
 * This is a single market extending between Charleston, West Virginia, Ashland, Kentucky, and Ironton, Ohio, with some segments extending as far west as Portsmouth, Ohio. They serve the most populous part of West Virginia and have a fair bit of reach, but the peripheral parts of West Virginia are all parts of different markets that cross state lines—the northern Panhandle and Morgantown are all close to the Pittsburgh market, the eastern Panhandle is closely associated with Washington D.C., the southern and southeastern areas are associated with western Virginia.  It makes sense to group the Huntington–Charleston stations as they all cover roughly the same area and have little or no presence beyond it, while stations broadcasting in the rest of the state have no presence in the Huntington–Charleston market.  P Aculeius (talk) 20:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep I read the above discussion and found P Aculeius's position significantly more convincing - that these are combined with each other and distinct from the rest of the state. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:11, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep. Real world name of the media market in question. Categorizing media by real world systems is appropriate.4meter4 (talk) 19:46, 16 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Television stations in the Wheeling–Steubenville market
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Television stations in the Wheeling–Steubenville market

Office buildings in the United Arab Emirates

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  13:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting office buildings in the united arab emirates
 * Propose deleting office buildings in the united arab emirates by city
 * Propose deleting office buildings in abu dhabi
 * Propose deleting office buildings in dubai
 * Nominator's rationale. Pointless category layer. Only content is Category:Skyscraper office buildings in the United Arab Emirates by city and Dubai International Financial Centre, which is not an office building. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:18, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete the Subcats/Neutral on Parent per nom. I'm wondering if the country one is worth keeping though to aid navigation across Category:Office buildings by country. (But there are already more subcats at Category:Skyscraper office buildings by country so maybe not.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 11:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree if Dubai International Financial Centre is not an office building, otherwise some merging is needed. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete per nom, the only child has apparently already been deleted anyway. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 05:53, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete all per above.4meter4 (talk) 19:51, 16 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Imperial Chinese government officials by province

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  13:46, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians by province to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Anhui to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Beijing to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Chongqing to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Fujian to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Gansu to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Guangdong to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Guangxi to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Guizhou to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Hebei to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Heilongjiang to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Henan to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Hubei to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Hunan to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Jiangsu to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Jiangxi to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Jilin to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Liaoning to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Shandong to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Shanghai to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Shanxi to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Sichuan to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Xinjiang to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Yunnan to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Qing dynasty politicians from Zhejiang to Category:Qing dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Anhui to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Fujian to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Guangdong to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Hebei to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Henan to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Hubei to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Jiangsu to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Jiangxi to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Shaanxi to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Shandong to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Shanghai to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Shanxi to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Sichuan to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Tianjin to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Song dynasty politicians from Zhejiang to Category:Song dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Anhui to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Beijing to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Fujian to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Gansu to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Guangdong to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Hebei to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Henan to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Hubei to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Hunan to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Inner Mongolia to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Jiangsu to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Jiangxi to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Jilin to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Liaoning to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Ningxia to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Shaanxi to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Shandong to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Shanxi to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Sichuan to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Xinjiang to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Category:Tang dynasty politicians from Zhejiang to Category:Tang dynasty government officials
 * Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:OCLOCATION, trivial intersection between occupation and province where people grew up. A second merge target is not needed because articles are already categorized by city or county within every province. If these categories are not merged, then at least rename "politicians" to "government officials" per precedent 1 and 2. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:11, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Neutral/Rename if Kept I'll defer to others if these aid navigation but, if kept, they should be renamed to better reflect the contents. - RevelationDirect (talk) 18:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Merge per WP:OCLOCATION, this is far too granular and doesn't aid navigation, it makes it more difficult. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 18:51, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 05:52, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Irish police officers by county
Relisted, see Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Irish police officers by county

Old userspace drafts
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  14:12, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from september 2005 to Category:Userspace drafts from before 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from january 2006 to Category:Userspace drafts from before 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from october 2006 to Category:Userspace drafts from before 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from november 2006 to Category:Userspace drafts from before 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from january 2007 to Category:Userspace drafts from 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from february 2007 to Category:Userspace drafts from 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from march 2007 to Category:Userspace drafts from 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from may 2007 to Category:Userspace drafts from 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from june 2007 to Category:Userspace drafts from 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from august 2007 to Category:Userspace drafts from 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from september 2007 to Category:Userspace drafts from 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from october 2007 to Category:Userspace drafts from 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from november 2007 to Category:Userspace drafts from 2007
 * Propose merging userspace drafts from december 2007 to Category:Userspace drafts from 2007
 * Nominator's rationale WP:SMALLCATs with between one and three members each and no clear potential for growth. The subcategorization of Category:Userspace drafts is best thought of not as a standard dated maintenance category (and thus a well-established scheme exempt from SMALLCAT deletions), but instead as subcategorization for size management since, unlike dated maintenance categories, a draft's presence in this tree is not requesting any specific action. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 18:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:01, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree - merge as suggested above. Months are far to small a time frame. --Bduke (talk) 02:40, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom, or keep 2005 and 2006 split as two year categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:58, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The 2005 category would contain only one page, so that seems itself pointless, and I don't want to have to deal with this again if someone dredges up an untagged userspace draft from 2004. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 14:45, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comments I understand, but picking 2007, is kinda WP:ARBITRARYCAT. So I oppose the "before 2007" merges. That said, I don't think 2007 needs to be split by month either (or 2008, for that matter). So, I'd support all subcats of Category:Userspace drafts just being by year, unless/until they are big enough to be split by month. - jc37 10:00, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Merge per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 05:51, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge all per nom.4meter4 (talk) 20:02, 16 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Exploration video games
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Exploration video games

Category:Independent watchmakers
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  14:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Independent watchmakers to Category:Watch manufacturing companies
 * Nominator's rationale: The fact that these watchmakers are "independent" is not, imo, a defining characteristic. I think the idea is to group together smaller companies, but as far as I know, a behemoth such as Rolex is not a subsidiary, so it should be part of the category. Also, defining characteristics should ideally be permanent but any of these watchmakers could be bought by, say, LVMH tomorrow and stop being "independent" despite the fact that its operations would barely change. (This is what happened to TAG Heuer for example.) Pichpich (talk) 16:59, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Just delete, the three articles are already in Category:Watch manufacturing companies of Switzerland. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:47, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bandy World Championship-winning countries
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Bandy World Championship-winning countries

Category:Atolls of the South China Sea
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Atolls of the South China Sea

Category:Celtic culture by country
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  14:20, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting celtic culture by country
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:ARBITRARYCAT; WP:CROSSCAT of Category:Culture by country and the Category:Culture by language family tree via Category:Celtic culture.
 * Example 1: What is "Celtic" about The Bowler and the Bunnet? Nothing. It's a film about shipbuilding in Scotland in the 1960s. That means it's in Category:Documentary films about Scotland > Category:Works about Scotland > Category:Scottish culture > Category:Celtic culture by country. Everything is correct until that last step, because not everything about "Scottish culture" is by definition "Celtic", far from it. This whole film is in English, a Germanic language.
 * Example 2: What is "Celtic" about Lucía Pérez? Nothing. She sings in Spanish and Galician, two Romance languages. Because she is from Galicia, she's in Category:Singers from Galicia (Spain) > Category:Musicians from Galicia (Spain) > Category:Galician music > Category:Galician culture > Category:Celtic culture by country. Again everything makes sense until the last step, because there is just nothing "Celtic" about her just because many many centuries ago there were people speaking Celtic languages living in Galicia. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:05, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete at least for now. With more specific Celtic content I might be persuaded to keep, but the category currently has too much non-Celtic content in it. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:51, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe, although I would prefer just Category:Celtic culture for that rather than trying to frame entire countries as "Celtic" by definition. Incidentally, Category:Celtic culture's description says: Do not place any articles in this category directly. Topics on Celtic antiquity go to Category:Ancient Celtic culture. Topics on Welsh culture to Category:Welsh culture, topics on Gaelic culture to Category:Gaelic culture, topics on Breton culture to Category:Breton culture (etc.). Dbachmann added this in 2023, but what they probably meant/needed was Template:Containercat, because there are still 13 items in it.
 * And even these examples are flawed, of course; not everything "Welsh" in "Welsh culture" is "Celtic". E.g. there are plenty of Latin, French, English etc. texts from Wales that are not "Celtic" at all. (Unfortunately I failed to convinced people at Talk:Welsh chronicles of that; apparently they preferred ambiguity over clarity, or I failed to provide clarity and make a good case for why clarity is important...).
 * Lots of things are only associated with Celticness (? Celticdom? Celtiquity? Celtichood?). Especially the Celtic League appears to have quite successfully marketed the whole idea of six specific "Celtic nations", despite how flawed (arbitrary/subjective) that is as a concept. (I'm considering Category:Celtic nations as a follow-up, but let's not get ahead of ourselves). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:31, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:16th-century Turkic women
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  14:20, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting 16th-century turkic women
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:NONDEFINING WP:ARBITRARYCAT WP:CROSSCAT WP:OR/WP:SYNTH. WP:SMALLCAT (2P 0C). What is "Turkic" about Daulat Sultan Khanum and Sultan Nigar Khanum? Parent Category:16th-century women by nationality is clearly incorrect, since "Turkic" is not a "nationality", but a language family. (The original Göktürks may be said to have been a "nationality" as subjects of the First Turkic Khaganate, but otherwise there is no such thing as "Turkic nationality").
 * Follow-up to long series of precedents confirming that the Turkic languages family is WP:NONDEFINING, see Articles for deletion/List of Turkic dynasties and countries. Shortly after Category:Turkic female royalty was also deleted and manually merged to Category:Female royalty.
 * There is also no main article for Category:Turkic women such as ancient Turkic women or women in early Turkic culture; compare the recent renaming of "Celtic women" to Category:Ancient Celtic women per WP:C2D Ancient Celtic women (stops in 5th century), and the recent renaming of "Germanic women" to Category:Early Germanic women per several renamings plus WP:C2D women in early Germanic culture (stops in 12th century). So the entire Category:Turkic women tree is questionable (and if it is legitimate, whether it should stretch all the way to the 16th century?), but let's start with this one as a test case. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:07, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom, per precedent. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:53, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Agriculture in Santa Catarina
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  14:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Agriculture in Santa Catarina to Category:Economy of Santa Catarina (state)
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 11:24, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:19, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:54, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Battles in the Netherlands by province
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete/merge/split. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  14:25, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting battles in the netherlands by province


 * Propose upmerging (Ane) Category:Battles in Friesland to Category:History of Friesland
 * Propose upmerging (Ane) Category:Battles in Groningen (province) to Category:History of Groningen (province)
 * Propose upmerging (Ane) Category:Battles in Limburg (Netherlands) to Category:History of Limburg (Netherlands)
 * Propose upmerging (Ane) Category:Battles in Overijssel to Category:History of Overijssel
 * Propose upmerging (Ane) Category:Battles in Utrecht (province) to Category:History of Utrecht (province)
 * Propose upmerging (Ane) Category:Battles in Zeeland to Category:History of Zeeland
 * Propose upmerging (Ane) Category:Battles in North Holland to Category:History of North Holland
 * Propose upmerging (Ane) Category:Battles in South Holland to Category:History of South Holland
 * Alt merge County of Holland battles in County of Holland between 1091–1795 to Category:County of Holland, possibly even Category:Battles involving Holland (9th century–1432)
 * Propose merging (Scheut) Category:Battles in Gelderland to Category:Duchy of Guelders, except WW2 battles:
 * Propose upmerging (Ane) Battle of Arnhem, Liberation of Arnhem, Battle of the Grebbeberg, Operation Market Garden, Battle of Nijmegen, Battle of the Nijmegen salient, Operation Pegasus, Schoonderlogt estate, Operation Veritable to Category:History of Gelderland (all these are already in Category:Military history of the Netherlands during World War II)
 * Propose merging (Scheut) Category:Battles in North Brabant to Category:Duchy of Brabant, except all post-1648 battles:
 * Propose upmerging (Ane) Siege of Bergen op Zoom (1747), Siege of Bergen op Zoom (1814), Siege of Breda (1793), Siege of Breda (1813), Operation Market Garden, Battle of Mill, Battle of the Nijmegen salient, Battle of Overloon, Operation Pheasant to Category:History of North Brabant
 * Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 22 (Alt Upmerged to Category:History of Drenthe). We established the Manescheut ( M[erging] Ane / Scheut) principle: We put battle articles into historically applicable territory categories / trees such as the Battle of Scheut (nl:Slag bij Scheut) into Category:Duchy of Brabant, unless these don't exist, in which case we put them in a History of (modern territory) category, such as Battle of Ane into Category:History of Drenthe.
 * Alt County of Holland rationale: battles taking place in the County of Holland between 1091–1795 can also be moved to Category:County of Holland (Scheut-style merge), possibly even Category:Battles involving Holland (9th century–1432), but this needs to be done on a (time-consuming) case-by-case basis. We would need to assess whether each and every battle site was really part of the County at the time, whether it was named "Holland" or still (West) Frisia at the time, and whether Holland was "involved" as a belligerent or that it was just some skirmish between others on its territory. I'm open to this, but recommend against it because it's a tedious job, and an Ane-style Upmerging works just fine. I'm also worried that lots of editors from outside the Netherlands think Category:Battles involving Holland is just the same as Category:Battles involving the Netherlands because in modern English parlance "Holland" is usually used as a pars pro toto of "the Netherlands", but just like England isn't the entire United Kingdom, Holland =/= the Netherlands. (CfR Category:Battles involving Holland to Category:Battles involving the County of Holland?) Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:09, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge/split per nom. For South Holland I agree with Category:Battles involving Holland as a second (manual) merge target, for articles until 1432. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:04, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The Alt merge County of Holland option also goes for North Holland, btw. I personally do not recommend it because of how much manual work it is, but according to the Manescheut principle we should try to merge battles to the County of Holland category wherever applicable. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:07, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Not much manual work at all, North and South Holland have 14 + 5 articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:39, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, well I don't feel like doing it haha. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Dutch regents
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  14:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Dutch regents to Category:Regents of the Netherlands
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C all siblings in Category:Regents by country are named Regents of Fooland. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:29, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Question Should parent Category:Regents by country be re-parented from Category:Heads of state by country to Category:Heads of government by country, or not? There is general agreement that Category:Child monarchs are legally the real heads of state, but what does that make regents? "Acting heads of state"? Or is "Heads of government" a better description for the relation between child monarch and regent? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:34, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Regents are representing the head of state, they aren't heads of state, nor are they heads of government (which is a modern distinction), they are a class on their own. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:09, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Interesting. So they should actually have their own category tree? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:13, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * They have a tree of their own anyway, all I am saying is they should not be parented to heads of state/government. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:51, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok. Then we should just un-parent Category:Heads of state by country. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Shinto shrines dedicated to individuals
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  14:36, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting shinto shrines dedicated to individuals
 * Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:OCMISC. The articles are already somewhere else in the shrines tree too. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:11, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:13, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:8th-century rulers in Europe
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  14:36, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose upmerging Category:8th-century rulers in Europe to Category:8th-century European people
 * Propose upmerging Category:9th-century rulers in Europe to Category:9th-century European people
 * Propose upmerging Category:10th-century rulers in Europe to Category:10th-century European people
 * Propose upmerging Category:11th-century rulers in Europe to Category:11th-century European people
 * Propose upmerging Category:12th-century rulers in Europe to Category:12th-century European people
 * Nominator's rationale: Redundant layer. Follow-up to "1st-century rulers in Europe" (Downmerged); "4th-century rulers in Europe" (Upmerged); and "7th-century rulers in Europe" (Upmerged). By long-established precedent, Popes are not categorised as 'monarchs'. "11th-century rulers in Al-Andalus" is currently in CfR, but we can re-parent it as needed regardless of this CfM's outcome. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:58, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge, redundant category layer with only two relevant subcategories (the al-Andalus subcategories should be under monarchs too). Marcocapelle (talk) 07:15, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's my expectation too. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:40, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Secondary School Kanji
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21%23Category:Secondary School Kanji