Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 29

 &lt; July 28 July 30 &gt;

Category:Medieval rulers of Thessaly
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 6%23Category:Medieval rulers of Thessaly

Category:3rd-millennium executions
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 6%23Category:3rd-millennium executions

Category:4th-millennium BC deaths

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:53, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting 4th-millennium bc deaths
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT. 1 P, 0 C. I reckon it would theoretically be possible to populate this category with probably everyone who is also in parent Category:4th-millennium BC people, but honestly, I don't see the point; they would be entirely duplicative. Having separate "people by date" and "deaths by date" categories and trees only make sense if these data are different and almost completely non-overlapping (e.g. "1853 births" & "1927 deaths"). But when we get into the thousands of years, the question whether person X died just before or after the turn of a millennium seems very much WP:NONDEFINING to me. Given that the BC(E) / AD/CE chronology was not invented until 525, people thousands of years before then would not have had any clue they died just before or after crossing that millennium-threshold anyway. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:55, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete In any event, the birth and death dates of people who died prior to about the 3rd millennium BC are often not well-constrained. The only current entry is already in Category:32nd-century BC Pharaohs. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 00:46, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:44, 30 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:10, 30 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:14th-century rulers of Monaco
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 6%23Category:14th-century rulers of Monaco

Category:East Bengal MLAs 1954
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 6%23Category:East Bengal MLAs 1954

Lords by country

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:56, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Lords of Belgium‎ to Category:Lords in Belgium‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Lords of France‎ to Category:Lords in France‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Lords of Germany‎ to Category:Lords in Germany
 * Propose renaming Category:Lords of the Holy Roman Empire‎ to Category:Lords in the Holy Roman Empire‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Lords of Italy‎ to Category:Lords in Italy‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Lords of the Netherlands‎ to Category:Lords in the Netherlands‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Lords of Portugal‎ to Category:Lords in Portugal‎‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Lords of Spain‎ to Category:Lords in Spain‎
 * Nominator's rationale: rename: "of" suggests it is followed by the name of the lordship, but that is obviously not the case here. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom. Category:European monarchs > Category:Monarchs in Europe is a relevant precedent here. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:27, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support rename per above -- Lenticel ( talk ) 02:20, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:27, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Lords of Serbia in the Middle Ages

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:56, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting lords of serbia in the middle ages
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, only one article in the category which is already in Category:12th-century Serbian nobility. Merging to Category:Lords is questionable because lord is not an exact translation of Župan. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:58, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:28, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom -- Lenticel ( talk ) 02:21, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:36, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Female-led UK punk bands of the 21st Century

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete * Pppery * it has begun... 13:48, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting female-led uk punk bands of the 21st century
 * Nominator's rationale: narrow intersection (WP:NARROWCAT). 1857a (talk) 20:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep The 21st century etc is not a narrow intersection. Rhagfyr (talk) 22:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, female-led punk bands is not a defining characteristic, and altogether it is a very narrow intersection indeed. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:35, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep As per the category talk page, this refers to a specific scene/generation of bands affiliated to the current UK punk scene (the wave of bands championed by Steve Iles). Ideally there should be an article on this wave (see talk page and draft article).  Unfortunately this a relatively recent scene/generation of bands and musicians operating in a time after the collapse of the conventional UK music press who in the past would have given them a name/label and boundaries (which makes it easier to write articles on earlier scenes).Romomusicfan (talk) 08:49, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't quite imagine that "championed by Steve Iles" would be a defining characteristic, but in any case an article should precede a category, not the other way around. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:52, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well this is the problem, the demise of historically the main source for UK music scenes/waves/movements such as this, which creates a problem for articles on scenes/waves/movements after said demise. At the moment there is a section on this scene in the Women in punk rock article which myself and a couple of other editors have been trying to farm off to make a separate article, and that section is cited as the main article for the category. There is an interview quote from Healthy Junkies' frontwoman Nina Courson referencing the scene which has come in useful for referencing mentions in articles such as 2010s in music and Music of the United Kingdom (2000s and 2010s).11:38, 6 July 2023 (UTC) Romomusicfan (talk) 11:38, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "There is also a strong movement of bands with girls and it is very refreshing to see, it gives new life to the scene" – Nina Courson, lead singer of Healthy Junkies interviewed by Bruce Turnball, Vive Le Rock issue 61 p35 Romomusicfan (talk) 11:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:12, 20 July 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  15:09, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete - there are many problems with this category. We have Category:English punk rock groups, not Category:UK punk bands. We don't have Category:Female-led bands or Category:Female-led groups, and we have Category:21st-century musicians and Category:Musical groups but not  Category:21st-century musical groups. So this is an extremely narrow intersection of 3 or 4 categories which don't yet exist. Oculi (talk) 13:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep and Rename to: Category:21st-century woman-led punk bands and there should also be a Category:20th-century woman-led punk bands. This format is more inline with other women-affiliated categories such as Category:20th-century women musicians and Category:21st-century women musicians, Category:20th-century women rappers‎, Category:20th-century women guitarists‎, Category:20th-century women pianists. I do not think the category in question needs to be so specific as to only include UK bands, and feel strongly that it should be more global and inclusive. Netherzone (talk) 16:46, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That would partly address the narrowcat concerns, but not the nondef issue. A band is not primarily known for being female-led, instead the lead singer is known for being a woman. We are mixing up the subjects of gender here. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:22, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It says female led not female-fronted. These are not manipulated chanteuses, they are - AFAIK without exception - the musical directors and dominant artists within their bands.  A significant proportion lead all-female or mostly-female bands. Generally, as artists they have gravitated to the more liberal punk scene and away from the highly testosteronish metal scene and an indie rock scene still obsessed with the "Four Young Lads" ideal 25-30 years after Britpop.
 * They are also the dominant demographic component of the younger generation of the UK punk scene in the 21st century. If anything, it is younger male-led bands of comparable standing that are becoming the "novelty" and the "rarity" such as Hazard from Luton and possibly Pizzatramp (not sure of the latters' ages), although "Old Man Bands" (mostly male survivors of the first two waves of punk) are still the biggest drawing acts at the box office.
 * Ideally there should exist an article on this whole wave of bands and subsequent waves - most of the first wave except Maid Of Ace and Dragster have their own Wikipedia articles - but with the collapse of the traditional music press there is no-one to give the phenomonon a collective name and define parameters. A category is the next best option, although at the moment what we do have is a bulging subsection of a wider article (the 2010s section of Women in punk rock). Romomusicfan (talk) 07:44, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * If the band is all-female then gender is a defining characteristic of the band. If they are not all-female it should (hypothetically) need to be "mixed-gender bands" instead of "female-led". Marcocapelle (talk) 06:37, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The point is that the artistic leadership of the bands is female (unlike, say, indie rock band The Lottery Winners who include one side woman but are male led.) Romomusicfan (talk) 11:48, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * or the kind of "female fronted" band such as Curved Air, Sneaker Pimps, Theaudience or Bow Wow Wow (up to 1982) where the female vocalist was just an employee with no artistic vote.Romomusicfan (talk) 17:18, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete per Oculi etc. - intersection, non-defining. — Qwerfjkl  talk  20:24, 6 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per Oculi.—Alalch E. 09:10, 20 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Lords of Emmeloord

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Lords of Emmeloord to Category:Lords of the Netherlands
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, only one article, and if I understand correctly this has been the only Lord of Emmeloord. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:59, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. The Lord of Emme Loord, nooit van gehoord! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Same articles in multiple Lords categories
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting
 * Category:Lords of Purmerend
 * Category:Lords of Hoog- en Aartswoude
 * Category:Lords of Sotteghem
 * Category:Lords of Armentières
 * Category:Lords of Oud-Beijerland
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, not a defining characteristic, and overlapping with Category:Counts of Egmond which is the more distinctive title. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:30, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:37, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Counts of Egmond
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 6%23Category:Counts of Egmond

Category:Governors of the medieval Islamic world
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 13:25, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: rename, repatent, and populate. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  19:01, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Governors of the medieval Islamic world to Category:Medieval governors, and populating it (e.g. subcategories Category:9th-century governors, Category:13th-century governors‎, Category:14th-century governors‎, Category:15th-century governors, as well as other subcats and items which qualify)
 * Propose re-parenting from Category:Governors and heads of sub-national entities by country to Category:Governors by century
 * Propose re-parenting from Category:Officials of the medieval Islamic world to Category:Medieval people by occupation
 * Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to several recent precedents:
 * Follow-up to Category:Treaties of the medieval Islamic world being Upmerged to Category:Medieval treaties (Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_May_27)
 * Follow-up to Category:Foreign relations of the medieval Islamic world being Upmerged to Category:Medieval international relations
 * Follow-up to Category:Ambassadors to the medieval Islamic world being Upmerged to Category:Medieval diplomats (Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_June_29)
 * Currently, this is an WP:ARBITRARYCAT (as the precedents have established, "the medieval Islamic world" was not a "country"), but if we drop the 'Islamic world' part just like in the previous conclusions, we get a WP:DEFINING category that takes 'Middle Ages' as its scope. Category:Governors by century is already a thing, Category:Ancient Roman governors is already a thing, so we could establish Category:Ancient governors and Category:Medieval governors as new trees by analogy with Category:Ancient monarchs and Category:Medieval monarchs etc. The alternative would be to delete this category, but I don't think that's necessary. We can Rename and Populate it, and Re-Parent it to make it much more DEFINING, useful and appropriate than it currently is. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: Went ahead and created Category:Ancient governors already. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment A typo in the nomination was fixed. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 13:26, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination. (I added links to the precedents in the nomination.) – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:38, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:58, 2 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Use of the term Illyrian in modern history
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 6%23Category:Use of the term Illyrian in modern history

Category:Solar System bodies
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  19:04, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting solar system bodies
 * Nominator's rationale: Redundant per Category:Bodies of the Solar System. Note that I'm not notifying the creator because of their burnout combined with the previous CfD that they were already notified of  Closhund (talk) 08:07, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Nearly identical to another recently deleted category, Category:Solar System objects. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 13:13, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. With thanks to nom's courtesy to the category creator. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:36, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Videocassette formats
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 6%23Category:Videocassette formats

Category:Advertising-free websites
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  19:06, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting advertising-free websites
 * Nominator's rationale: Not a defining characteristic of everything other than the Wikimedia projects, which have their own category. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 03:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:27, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikimedia Philippines
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  19:07, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting wikimedia philippines
 * Nominator's rationale: Not a defining characteristic of Johnny Alegre; removing him would make this a C2F. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 02:59, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:28, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikimedia DC
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  19:08, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting wikimedia dc
 * Nominator's rationale: Sole content is the eponymous article and a bunch of project pages that should be in Category:Wikipedia and Wikimedia DC instead per the hatnote. This would be a C2F if it were populated properly, but it feels wrong to depopulate it and then list it as speedy, so here we are. The mainspace redirect Wikimedia DC can be manually recategorized into appropriate parents. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 02:59, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Support per nom, but leave a redirect as it is likely to be recreated. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:32, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:2nd-century women rulers
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  19:13, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:2nd-century women rulers to Category:2nd-century women regents
 * Nominator's rationale: This better describes the lives of these ancient women. I checked them all. All were Category:Ancient women regents, except Himiko, who belongs in Category:Ancient queens regnant. Yasovati, Queen of Kashmir should be recategorised as Category:Characters in Hindu mythology (compare sibling Category:Characters in the Bhagavata Purana). Follow-up to 2nd-century BC women rulers (Split), 3rd-century BC women rulers (Split), and 4th-century BC women rulers (Split). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:01, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename + manual clean-up per nom, per precedent. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:19, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems to me like there is already agreement, and no objection. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:17, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Support per above -- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:54, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I received some complaints on my user talk page about this relisting. One was that I did not properly sign it ... I thought the 4-tilde would work but it did not, so consider it signed as a reposting now.  Second, there was a complaint that it didn't need to be relisted at all.  That's a matter of opinion and style and not protocol.  Third, I did not leave a subst:cfd relisting template on the origin CfD page; that has been rectified.  Then there was a fourth complaint about my not adding a clickable link to a page from which I removed a category; that was due to trying to link to a particular version of a page and won't be done again.  Regards --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 00:09, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Ceyockey, I would consider this an unnecessary relisting. It has a detailed rationale and support from two CfD regulars, who are as such familiar with category policy. I'm addition there is nothing contentious about it that warrants any further discussion. Regarding the technical errors, I would suggest using the gadget XFDcloser to relist discussions. If you want to discuss this, feel free to to continue this at my talk page.<span id="Qwerfjkl:1691349181152:WikipediaFTTCLNCategories_for_discussion/Log/2023_July_29" class="FTTCmt"> — Qwerfjkl  talk  19:13, 6 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.