Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 3

 &lt; July 2 July 4 &gt;

Category:1999 disestablishments in Nauru

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: speedy delete. CSD G7 Liz Read! Talk! 02:51, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting 1999 disestablishments in nauru
 * Nominator's rationale: This category was accidentally created by me due to a typo. When I made the article for the Nauru Local Government Council, I accidentally made the category "1999 disestablishments in Nauru" instead of "1992 disestablishments in Nauru". It is now an empty category. RoundSquare (talk) 22:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Charles W. Whittlesey

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 01:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting charles w. whittlesey
 * Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary eponymous parent category for only two articles that are already in an appropriate subcat. WP:OCEPON. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 21:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete, obvious case of WP:OCEPON. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Lounge music organists

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 01:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Lounge music organists to Category:Lounge musicians
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 18:56, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. The whole tree of Category:Lounge musicians contains less than 10 articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Lounge music pianists

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 01:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Lounge music pianists to Category:Lounge musicians
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 18:56, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. The whole tree of Category:Lounge musicians contains less than 10 articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Members of the Five Second Society of Wikipedia editors

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete per user assent. I also userfied the associated pages, and noted it at User talk:Captchacatcher. Hopefully this will help avoid more XfD trips for the content in question. - jc37 09:34, 11 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting members of the five second society of wikipedia editors
 * Nominator's rationale: Inappropriate Joke/nonsense/all-inclusive user category. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:43, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. I  think Five Second Society probably should be userfied as well. (I dunno if this is supposed to be humour, or if it's WP:POINT, but either way...) - jc37 16:52, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, it does not aid user collaboration. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep, there is nothing wrong with being inclusive. There are user categories which are practically more inclusive (most being more inclusive unless they have actually edited something...), such as:


 * There is a difference between a Userbox and a User category. This discussion is about deleting the category. - jc37 01:17, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm new to editing Wikipedia. What is the reason behind wanting to delete it? Is it different from this category: Five Year Society? Captchacatcher (talk) 06:36, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Assuming you mean "Is it different from this category: Category:Members of the Five Year Society of Wikipedia editors", well I would be in support of deleting that category too but the differences are explained in the nomination: WP:Five Year Society is a real thing whereas WP:Five Second Society is a silly joke that includes every user in existence. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:48, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, only users that have actually edited something on Wikipedia, so probably a far minority of users. But I understand. I created it, just copying the Five Year Society, and if it isn't allowed you can remove. But is it fine if I keep the userbox without the category? Captchacatcher (talk) 01:43, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It should be. As I noted on your talk page, I went ahead and userfied it for you. I'll go ahead and close this and remove the category. - jc37 09:34, 11 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American football teams in Europe by country

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  15:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:American football teams in Europe by country to Category:American football teams by country
 * Propose merging Category:Baseball teams in Europe by country‎ to Category:Baseball teams by country‎
 * Propose merging Category:Baseball teams in North America by country‎ to Category:Baseball teams by country‎
 * Propose merging Category:Ice hockey teams by continent and country to Category:Ice hockey teams by country
 * Propose merging Category:Ice hockey teams in Asia by country to Category:Ice hockey teams by country
 * Propose merging Category:Ice hockey teams in Europe by country to Category:Ice hockey teams by country
 * Propose merging Category:Ice hockey teams in North America by country to Category:Ice hockey teams by country
 * Propose renaming Category:Defunct ice hockey teams in Europe by country to Category:Defunct ice hockey teams by country
 * Nominator's rationale: The layer (Sport) teams by (continent) and country only exists in these three sports (American football, baseball, and ice hockey). It doesn't aid navigation as none would be near hitting 200 countries (American football 30, baseball 22, ice hockey 51). Kaffet i halsen (talk) 06:51, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose [see below] the 1st one (and probably the others on similar grounds). The nom takes Category:American football teams in Europe by country out of Category:American football teams in Europe and hence out of Category:American football in Europe, which seems a perfectly reasonable category. Oculi (talk) 11:25, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * They could have a second merge target, Category:Baseball teams in Europe. At least the ones except Europe don't look so useful right now, e.g. Category:Ice hockey teams in North America. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 09:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * on the contrary they are not taken out from Category:American football in Europe because all content is still in Category:American football in Europe by country, so the second merge target is not needed. 20:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right. Change to support. Oculi (talk) 09:14, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Hard science fiction

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  11:21, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting hard science fiction
 * Propose deleting hard science fiction films
 * Nominator's rationale: Whether a given work counts as "hard" science fiction is subjective. Some of these articles may mention critics characterizing them as "hard", but most do not, with categorization instead representing individual editors' opinions. Even in the rare cases where "hard"ness is of encyclopedic relevance, it is generally not defining. This is better left to the lists at . --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she&#124;they&#124;xe) 06:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC)


 * shouldn't subCategory:Hard science fiction films be co-nominated? Marcocapelle (talk) 07:00, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah right, done. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she&#124;they&#124;xe) 07:05, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Soft oppose Hard science fiction Doesn't seem that subjective, but a well-established genre. Plenty of examples supported by WP:RS. However, if we're worried that this may not be enough to give editors an idea, Listify is always an alternate option. Hard science fiction is essentially already a list. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:33, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Per WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. While there might be a list of archetypical hard science fiction works that are generally agreed on, this seems likely to be subjective in many other cases. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Would Listify be an acceptable alternative to you? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:24, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Absolutely it would! That would allow for citations or other context for this label. - RevelationDirect (talk) 11:49, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I told off-wiki that I would oppose a CfD nomination to simply delete the category, so here I am making good on that. – MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 02:40, 29 May 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 09:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep or Listify "hard science fiction" is a genre, and works that fall under it generally are defined by it (WP:CATDEFINE). If it wasn't possible for people to define what specific works do or do not count as hard science fiction, then we wouldn't be able to make.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support nobody knows that defines "hard". Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:07, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Would Listify be an acceptable alternative to you? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Listify, if no consensus to listify, then Keep, per hard science fiction, and the above. - jc37 22:01, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Executive power in Ukraine
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 19%23Category:Executive power in Ukraine

Category:Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 19%23Category:Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine

Category:Philosophy writers
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 19%23Category:Philosophy writers

Category:Ethicists by nationality
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus to merge per SMALLCAT. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  15:51, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Swiss ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Swedish ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Spanish ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:South African ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Slovenian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Scottish ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Romanian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Portuguese ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Polish ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Peruvian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Pakistani ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Norwegian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Nigerian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Mexican ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Maltese ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Lithuanian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Kenyan ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Japanese ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Italian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Israeli ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Irish ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Iranian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Indian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:German ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:French ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Finnish ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Dutch ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Danish ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Croatian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Colombian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Chinese ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Canadian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:British ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Bengali ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Australian ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:Argentine ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Propose merging Category:American ethicists to Category:Ethicists
 * Nominator's rationale: Nationality is not a useful subdivision for ethics, as most work in ethicscrosses country borders. Ethicists should be split by field, tradition (virtue, utlitiltarian, etc) or other related divisions instead. Most of these are also WP:SMALLCAT, and don't need to be merged to the relevant Category:Philosophers by country because those are also split out by century. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 03:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge at least the smaller categories with less than 5 articles, per WP:SMALLCAT, neutral about the others. They don't need to be merged to the relevant subcats of Category:Philosophers by nationality because they are already in there, or split out by century and nationality. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:45, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:SMALLCAT refers to "categories that, by their very definition, will never have more than a few members". Lots of categories here have lots of potential for growth. Right now, for example, Category:Italian ethicists has three members. I suspect if you gave me half an hour, I could find dozens of Italian ethicists who are notable, I suspect I could even find a couple who already have Wikipedia articles but aren't in the category. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge at least the smaller categories with fewer than 5 articles per WP:SMALLCAT / Marcocapelle. if you want to have ethicists split by field, you should build up a new category tree rather than changing an existing branch of the well-established Category:People by occupation and nationality tree. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:20, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "Ethicist" isn't a meaningful occupation for most of these people - the most correct description of their occupation is "philosopher" - so this doesn't actually belong in people by occupation at all. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 23:33, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It is part of Category:Philosophers by field rather than in people by occupation. Articles about philosophers who were not ethicists should be purged, obviously. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:16, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * While ethics is a branch of philosophy, not all ethicists are philosophers. For example, lots of political theorists, theologians, lawyers, historians of thought, or sociologists might meaningfully describe themselves (or be described as) ethicists. (Especially if you start thinking about subfields. Lots of medical ethicists are physicians, for example.) Insofar as it's worth splitting up academics by nationality (no strong view on this) I suspect it makes sense to split up ethicists by nationality, too. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * There are multiple meanings of the word "ethicist" but the meaning of this category is philosophers who study ethics, which is why it's categorized the way it is. Physicians don't belong in this category if they're not philosophers. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 23:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Medical ethicists subcategories should be allowed though. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:39, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "the meaning of this category is philosophers who study ethics". There are many academics with 'ethics' in their titles who are not philosophers. (There are university departments with 'ethics' in the title that contain few, if any, philosophers.) I don't see any reason to exclude these ethicists from our ethicist categories, and I'm struggling to understand why you're claiming that we should. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:11, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ideally we should have a category that reflects a single meaning of a WP:SHAREDNAME Since the category that is currently labelled "Category:Ethicists" is under the Category:Philosophers tree, that category should contain people who are philosophers. If we need to, we can make a new category for non-philosopher ethicists and disambiguate between categories so the meaning is clear, but we shouldn't mix them together. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 18:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose Category tree is evidently large enough to warrant splitting by nationality in addition to philosophy. However, some of these are WP:SMALLCAT, and should be merged. Here are all of the ones smaller than 5 pages, in reverse alphabetical order:
 * –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 16:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge at least the smaller categories with fewer than 5 articles per WP:SMALLCAT, as listed above by LaundryPizza03. No objection to recreating them if they grow to 5+ article though. A whole tree with many underpopulated cats doesn't aid navigation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:09, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you please quote the part of WP:SMALLCAT you're referring to? Why do you believe that these categories have "no potential for growth", which is what WP:SMALLCAT is about? Josh Milburn (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose merging smaller categories, unless all are merged. The argument that we should merge the smaller categories appears to be based on WP:SMALLCAT. But "this criterion does not preclude all small categories; a category which does have realistic potential for growth, such as a category for holders of a notable political office, may be kept even if only a small number of its articles actually exist at the present time". Independent argument is needed that these categories do not have "realistic potential for growth". I many (most? all?) do. Josh Milburn (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * For example: I just added three existing articles to the Italian ethicists category. We have dozens of articles about Italian philosophers on Wikipedia, and many of them will be ethicists. And that's before we've even added (e.g.) Aquinas, Machiavelli, Cicero... (But I've not done that as I realise it might be a little anachronistic to call them "Italian", and I don't want to pick a fight.) Right now, the categories are underpopulated. But that's a reason to give them a little love, not a reason to delete them. Josh Milburn (talk) 16:02, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I favor keeping the Italian subcat based on those edits; thanks for improving the encyclopedia! - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * An underlying assumption in smallcat is that we're talking about a potential for growth in articles that actually belong in a category. WP:NONDEFINING is what defines whether an article belongs. While many (most?) philosophers dabble in ethics (as do some other professions), the number who focus on ethics and are defined by that specialty is quite limited. The crux of our disagreement is actually with WP:NONDEFINING, not WP:SMALLCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure; we can argue about who counts as an ethicist, and/or who should be defined as such. But I'm still not clear that you've actually provided an argument than any/many/most of these categories do not have "realistic potential for growth". Maybe some of them don't, but they should be explored individually. They shouldn't be deleted in one fell swoop just because they don't have lots of articles right now. The fact that you now support keeping the Italian category should surely make you pause. I only chose that one to populate a little more because I happened to create it... Josh Milburn (talk) 21:01, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * For most of the editing guidelines under WP:OC, a CFD decision would be based on the concept of a category like being subjective, or overlapping, or being a non-defining award and those problems typically wouldn't change even as articles are added and improved. With WP:SMALLCAT it's a predication about future growth potential that is subject to correction. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:30, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe so. But at risk of repeating myself: You've not offered an argument to support your "prediction", and, as I've shown with the Italian example, your prediction seems to be baseless in at least some cases. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 16:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge at least the smaller categories with fewer than 5 articles per WP:SMALLCAT, as listed above by LaundryPizza03. No objection to recreating them if they grow to 5+ article though. A whole tree with many underpopulated cats doesn't aid navigation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:09, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you please quote the part of WP:SMALLCAT you're referring to? Why do you believe that these categories have "no potential for growth", which is what WP:SMALLCAT is about? Josh Milburn (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose merging smaller categories, unless all are merged. The argument that we should merge the smaller categories appears to be based on WP:SMALLCAT. But "this criterion does not preclude all small categories; a category which does have realistic potential for growth, such as a category for holders of a notable political office, may be kept even if only a small number of its articles actually exist at the present time". Independent argument is needed that these categories do not have "realistic potential for growth". I many (most? all?) do. Josh Milburn (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * For example: I just added three existing articles to the Italian ethicists category. We have dozens of articles about Italian philosophers on Wikipedia, and many of them will be ethicists. And that's before we've even added (e.g.) Aquinas, Machiavelli, Cicero... (But I've not done that as I realise it might be a little anachronistic to call them "Italian", and I don't want to pick a fight.) Right now, the categories are underpopulated. But that's a reason to give them a little love, not a reason to delete them. Josh Milburn (talk) 16:02, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I favor keeping the Italian subcat based on those edits; thanks for improving the encyclopedia! - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * An underlying assumption in smallcat is that we're talking about a potential for growth in articles that actually belong in a category. WP:NONDEFINING is what defines whether an article belongs. While many (most?) philosophers dabble in ethics (as do some other professions), the number who focus on ethics and are defined by that specialty is quite limited. The crux of our disagreement is actually with WP:NONDEFINING, not WP:SMALLCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure; we can argue about who counts as an ethicist, and/or who should be defined as such. But I'm still not clear that you've actually provided an argument than any/many/most of these categories do not have "realistic potential for growth". Maybe some of them don't, but they should be explored individually. They shouldn't be deleted in one fell swoop just because they don't have lots of articles right now. The fact that you now support keeping the Italian category should surely make you pause. I only chose that one to populate a little more because I happened to create it... Josh Milburn (talk) 21:01, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * For most of the editing guidelines under WP:OC, a CFD decision would be based on the concept of a category like being subjective, or overlapping, or being a non-defining award and those problems typically wouldn't change even as articles are added and improved. With WP:SMALLCAT it's a predication about future growth potential that is subject to correction. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:30, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe so. But at risk of repeating myself: You've not offered an argument to support your "prediction", and, as I've shown with the Italian example, your prediction seems to be baseless in at least some cases. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 16:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge at least the smaller categories with fewer than 5 articles per WP:SMALLCAT, as listed above by LaundryPizza03. No objection to recreating them if they grow to 5+ article though. A whole tree with many underpopulated cats doesn't aid navigation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:09, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you please quote the part of WP:SMALLCAT you're referring to? Why do you believe that these categories have "no potential for growth", which is what WP:SMALLCAT is about? Josh Milburn (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose merging smaller categories, unless all are merged. The argument that we should merge the smaller categories appears to be based on WP:SMALLCAT. But "this criterion does not preclude all small categories; a category which does have realistic potential for growth, such as a category for holders of a notable political office, may be kept even if only a small number of its articles actually exist at the present time". Independent argument is needed that these categories do not have "realistic potential for growth". I many (most? all?) do. Josh Milburn (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * For example: I just added three existing articles to the Italian ethicists category. We have dozens of articles about Italian philosophers on Wikipedia, and many of them will be ethicists. And that's before we've even added (e.g.) Aquinas, Machiavelli, Cicero... (But I've not done that as I realise it might be a little anachronistic to call them "Italian", and I don't want to pick a fight.) Right now, the categories are underpopulated. But that's a reason to give them a little love, not a reason to delete them. Josh Milburn (talk) 16:02, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I favor keeping the Italian subcat based on those edits; thanks for improving the encyclopedia! - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * An underlying assumption in smallcat is that we're talking about a potential for growth in articles that actually belong in a category. WP:NONDEFINING is what defines whether an article belongs. While many (most?) philosophers dabble in ethics (as do some other professions), the number who focus on ethics and are defined by that specialty is quite limited. The crux of our disagreement is actually with WP:NONDEFINING, not WP:SMALLCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure; we can argue about who counts as an ethicist, and/or who should be defined as such. But I'm still not clear that you've actually provided an argument than any/many/most of these categories do not have "realistic potential for growth". Maybe some of them don't, but they should be explored individually. They shouldn't be deleted in one fell swoop just because they don't have lots of articles right now. The fact that you now support keeping the Italian category should surely make you pause. I only chose that one to populate a little more because I happened to create it... Josh Milburn (talk) 21:01, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * For most of the editing guidelines under WP:OC, a CFD decision would be based on the concept of a category like being subjective, or overlapping, or being a non-defining award and those problems typically wouldn't change even as articles are added and improved. With WP:SMALLCAT it's a predication about future growth potential that is subject to correction. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:30, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe so. But at risk of repeating myself: You've not offered an argument to support your "prediction", and, as I've shown with the Italian example, your prediction seems to be baseless in at least some cases. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe so. But at risk of repeating myself: You've not offered an argument to support your "prediction", and, as I've shown with the Italian example, your prediction seems to be baseless in at least some cases. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge at most the smaller categories - there are 1214 people in, quite a lot, and I see no convincing reason why these should not be divided by nationality. A brief glance at the numbers suggest that many of them have not been subcatted by nationality. Petscan is a useful tool for this: This search finds 2 Norwegians. Oculi (talk) 23:36, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I do not quite know if e.g. bioethicians would belong in a (general) ethician category by nationality. Ethicians without prefix seems to suggest philosophers only. Bioethicians would surely belong in a bioethician category by nationality but that does not exist yet. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  15:16, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I see potential for growth. The definitional problem is a larger question and embraces the entire tree structure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:31, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Oppose. Clearly part of a wider tree and does not fail WP:SMALLCAT. Nationality is not a useful subdivision for ethics, as most work in ethicscrosses country borders could apply to most occupations. People are generally categorised by nationality. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:03, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Nations at competitions
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 19%23Category:Nations at competitions

Category:Psychonautics researchers
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 19%23Category:Psychonautics researchers

Category:Raygun Gothic
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 01:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting raygun gothic
 * Nominator's rationale: Created 2021, still completely empty. Its purpose seems to be to hold other broader categories; but those categories should just be on the Raygun Gothic article page, if they actually apply at all. The category itself is empty of articles. Quuxplusone (talk) 14:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:C2F, this could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Constituencies of the Parliament of the United Kingdom represented by a sitting prime minister
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 * The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 01:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting constituencies of the parliament of the united kingdom represented by a sitting prime minister
 * Nominator's rationale: IMHO it's not WP:DEFINING for a constituency to have returned a prime minister. These constituencies share a historical coincidence. The existing list article List of United Kingdom Parliament constituencies represented by sitting prime ministers is a lot more useful. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Support - it isn't defining for a constituency. Oculi (talk) 14:41, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NONDEF. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. WP:NONDEF. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:21, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:1960s assassinated Nigerian politicians
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 * The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 01:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting
 * Propose deleting
 * Nominator's rationale: Apparently abandoned category scheme; each has one article. Each article is already in a plethora of categories. Oculi (talk) 12:28, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Seems like WP:NARROWCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:41, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Cola-like brands
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
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 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Category has already been emptied. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:13, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting cola-like brands
 * Nominator's rationale: Undefined category. Blanked by . What was included weren't even copies of Coca-cola and their selection wasn't clear (biased) to cola brands behind the Iron curtain. A09 (talk) 12:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. In the category were only 3 pages, all now moved to "Category:Cola brands". There wasn't any difference between those two categories. I support deleting Category:Cola-like brands. Artemis Andromeda (talk) 12:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete, Category:Cola brands suffices. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per Marcocapelle. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Yep, this category is emptied. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:14, 5 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:German chroniclers
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  15:55, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:German chroniclers to Category:Chroniclers from the Holy Roman Empire
 * Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to Category:Belgian chroniclers being Alt Renamed (per Marcocapelle) in August 2022 to Category:Chroniclers from the Holy Roman Empire (because "Belgian" was found to be "anachronistic", and it was not possible to assign them to more specific lands such as Flanders, Liège etc.). Closely related to the ongoing CfR on "German chronicles".
 * The current cat exp reads articles about medieval and early-modern chroniclers from the German-speaking lands (why "German-speaking"?), but the Template:fooian fooers and Category:German historians put them in the Category:German people nationality tree (arguably anachronistic for all pre-1871 people in this category, which is probably all of them), while Category:Austrian historians (which will not apply to the vast majority of them) puts them into the Category:Austrian people by occupation tree (which goes back no further than the 16th century according to Category:Austrian people by century and occupation, although Category:Austrian historians goes back no further than the 18th century). One of the few "Austrian" chroniclers in this category is Jans der Enikel from Vienna, writing in Middle High German in the late 13th century (when "Austria" was still just the small Duchy of Austria around Vienna). Why should Jans be in the same category as, say, the 11th-century Adam of Bremen from the stem Duchy of Saxony writing in Latin? The only thing they have in common is being HRE subjects, not which duchy they lived in, nor which language they wrote in.
 * All this is really strange and silly. Language has nothing to do with this, especially if the chroniclers in question wrote in Latin, (Middle) French, Middle Dutch, etc. And we do not need to insert "Germany" or "Austria" before they existed. We should Merge them into the HRE chroniclers cat, and take them out of the German and Austrian nationality trees. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:48, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * FYI as you participated in the 2022 Belgian chroniclers CfR, to which this is a follow-up. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I haven't checked all articles, but assume that they all refer to a pre-1806 period. Support per nom under that assumption. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Assuming there's a manual review for any outliers, this will be more historically accurate and match the earlier nomination. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:31, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fantasy war films
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 * The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 01:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting fantasy war films
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:OVERLAPCAT; most — if not all — of the articles in this category are also in war- or fantasy-related categories. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:03, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete, it does not seem to be a subgenre in its own right. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete War is kind of inherent to the fantasy genre, especially high fantasy such as LOTR which has been quite genre-defining. I expect to see war in a (high) fantasy film. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:National Highways in China
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 19%23Category:National Highways in China

Creating an "Anime and manga about death games" category or renaming and changing the parent categories of the "Battle royale anime and manga" category?
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Procedural Close  (non-admin closure) This was more of a WP:TEAHOUSE type question and the answer was provided. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:39, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Category:Fiction about death games, which "should directly contain very few, if any, pages and should mainly contain subcategories," currently has a large number of articles about anime and manga in it. There is currently Category:Battle royale anime and manga, and some articles are in both that category and Category:Fiction about death games. Should a new "Anime and manga about death games" category be created, should the "Battle royale anime and manga" category be renamed and have its parent categories changed, or should something different (or nothing) happen? QuietCicada (talk) 00:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * By all means go ahead and create/populate Category:Anime and manga about death games. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've created the category and given it parent categories, and I'm putting articles into it now. Thanks for your help! QuietCicada (talk) 13:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)