Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 31

 &lt; July 30 August 1 &gt;

Category:Medieval archaeological cultures

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 01:40, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose upmerging Category:Medieval archaeological cultures to Category:Archaeological cultures by period and Category:Medieval culture
 * Nominator's rationale: Redundant layer: 0 P, 1 C. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Archaeological cultures of Western Europe

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 01:40, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeological cultures of Western Europe to Category:Archaeological cultures of Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeological cultures of Northern Europe to Category:Archaeological cultures of Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeological cultures of Central Europe to Category:Archaeological cultures of Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeological cultures of Southern Europe to Category:Archaeological cultures of Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeological cultures of Southeastern Europe to Category:Archaeological cultures of Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeological cultures of Eastern Europe to Category:Archaeological cultures of Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeology of Western Europe to Category:Archaeology in Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeology of Central Europe to Category:Archaeology in Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeology of Southern Europe to Category:Archaeology in Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeology of Southeastern Europe to Category:Archaeology in Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Archaeology of Eastern Europe to Category:Archaeology in Europe
 * Propose upmerging Category:Scandinavian archaeology to Category:Archaeology of Northern Europe
 * Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to Category:Archaeological cultures of Southwestern Europe and Category:Archaeology of Northwestern Europe (and other precedents before it, each concluding that dividing Europe into "Western", "Northern" etc violates WP:ARBITRARYCAT). Archaeology of Northern Europe is the only main article which deserves its own category, Category:Archaeology of Northern Europe, but we should still upmerge Category:Scandinavian archaeology into it per WP:NARROWCAT. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:58, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose upmerging Category:Scandinavian archaeology to Category:Archaeology of Northern Europe
 * Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to Category:Archaeological cultures of Southwestern Europe and Category:Archaeology of Northwestern Europe (and other precedents before it, each concluding that dividing Europe into "Western", "Northern" etc violates WP:ARBITRARYCAT). Archaeology of Northern Europe is the only main article which deserves its own category, Category:Archaeology of Northern Europe, but we should still upmerge Category:Scandinavian archaeology into it per WP:NARROWCAT. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:58, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge, it could hypothetically have been helpful to have these categories if archaeological cultures would consistently be located within one of these regions and across countries of that region, but that is not the case. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:59, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Therefore, Upmerge. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Video games with title protagonists

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 01:40, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting video games with title protagonists
 * Nominator's rationale: Not a WP:CATDEF by any means, video games in which the protagonist is also mentioned in the title? C'mon. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 20:04, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Might as well start a Category:Video games with names beginning with "The". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:44, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. Firstly, there were a HUGE number of games named in this way. Secondly, it's kinda equivalent to a category for characters with games named after them, but this is better because a lot of the characters might not have their own article, ie the game is the tangible object with more notability/sources, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.9.68.82 (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * there were a HUGE number of games named in this way. There is also a HUGE number of games with names beginning with "The". So what? That doesn't make it WP:DEFINING. I'm also pretty sure there is a HUGE number of games with names in which "of" is the second word. So what? Still WP:NONDEFINING. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:28, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Treasure troves by country
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Relisted * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 00:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Relisted, see Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 8%23Treasure troves by country
 * Support Option 1, per User:Nederlandse Leeuw's rationale. -- Green  C  18:55, 8 August 2023 (UTC)


 * @GreenC You might want to move your comment to Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 8. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Green  C  19:26, 8 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American people of West Asian descent
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 8%23Category:American people of West Asian descent

Category:Al-Masry SC matches
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 01:41, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Al-Masry SC matches to Category:Al Masry SC matches
 * Nominator's rationale: Requesting renaming of the category to Category:Al Masry SC matches, to match parent article Al Masry SC. Note that I created the target category without noticing that it was already existing but with a different name. Ben5218 (talk) 16:24, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge at Category:Al Masry SC matches to match the article title Al Masry SC. <b style="color:#0033ab">Joseph</b><b style="color:#000000">2302</b> (talk) 07:49, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 18:23, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per Joseph. GiantSnowman 18:25, 4 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Baseball at the 2015 Pan American Games templates
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 01:42, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting baseball at the 2015 pan american games templates
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT, the events sidebar and Canadian roster templates are already well-categorized, so no upmerging is needed. Frietjes (talk) 15:15, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete as per nom. <b style="color:#0033ab">Joseph</b><b style="color:#000000">2302</b> (talk) 14:38, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Hong Kong political prisoners
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Political prisoners held by Hong Kong. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 01:42, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Hong Kong political prisoners to Category:Political prisoners in Hong Kong
 * Alt Rename Category:Hong Kong political prisoners to Category:Political prisoners held by Hong Kong
 * Re-parent from Category:Chinese prisoners and detainees to Category:Prisoners and detainees of Hong Kong (child of Category:Prisoners and detainees of China)
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent Category:Political repression in Hong Kong (location/authority); child Category:People convicted under the Hong Kong national security law (location/authority); most siblings siblings in Category:Political prisoners by country are already named Category:Political prisoners in Fooland. Category description: Current or former political prisoners in Hong Kong. Follow-up to the failed bundled CfR "Political prisoners by country". This one of the easier ones I wish to rename separately. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:59, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt Rename rationale: Consistent with cousin categories such as Category:Prisoners of war by detaining country, containing children called Category:Prisoners of war held by Fooland. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:24, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Support alt for consistency with cousin categories. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:13, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Romanian political prisoners
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Political prisoners held by Romania. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 01:43, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Romanian political prisoners to Category:Political prisoners in Romania
 * Alt Rename Category:Romanian political prisoners to Category:Political prisoners held by Romania
 * Re-parent from Category:Romanian prisoners and detainees to Category:Prisoners and detainees of Romania
 * Nominator's rationale: More WP:CATSPECIFIC, WP:C2C. Follow-up to the failed bundled CfR "Political prisoners by country", where the question was whether these categories were defined by the nationality of the prisoners, or the country they were held in (location) or by (authority), especially in the case of Polish / Poland. With Romania, I think the case is much clearer: these are all people who have been both imprisoned/detained in Romania (location) as well as by Romania (Romanian governmental authorities). In practice, these are the same; all were detained on Romanian soil by Romanian authorities. However, not all of them necessarily had "Romanian nationality".


 * Nationality seems not of primary importance in this tree, and there are many ambiguous examples: Dumitru Topciu (the only item directly in this category) could be categorised as Imperial-Russian, Republican-Russian, Bessarabian, Moldovan, Romanian, Gagauz (and perhaps Bulgarian) for various reasons, and if you look at the categories, he actually is. The two subcats are much clearer: Category:People detained by the Securitate and Category:People detained by the Siguranța, both of which are also children of Category:Prisoners and detainees of Romania, which is explicitly exclusively for Prisoners and detainees held by Romania. For prisoners and detainees of Romanian nationality, see Category:Romanian prisoners and detainees. If you look at various items in these subcategories, you see lots of different or double nationalities (Boris Stefanov, Bulgarian/Romanian; Elek Köblös, Austro-Hungarian/Hungarian/Romanian; Vitali Holostenco, Imperial-Russian/Ukrainian/Bessarabian/Romanian/Soviet etc.). What these three have in common is not so much Romanian nationality, much less ethnicity (they were all born in different countries with different native languages, but somehow ended up in Romania), but being suspects in the Category:Dealul Spirii Trial (parent Category:Trials in Romania) and they were all part of a larger group of Category:People detained by the Siguranța.
 * Proposed wording: Given all that, perhaps a more accurate description of the whole thing might be Category:Political prisoners detained in Romania by various Romanian authorities. But that would be way too wordy, so let's just stick with Category:Political prisoners in Romania. Most siblings in Category:Political prisoners by country are already named Category:Political prisoners in Fooland, so WP:C2C.


 * Re-parenting: The parents also need to be cleared up: Category:Political repression in Romania is correct, but just like the two subcats, Category:Romanian prisoners and detainees (=prisoners with Romanian nationality, regardless of location or detaining authority) must be Re-parented to Category:Prisoners and detainees of Romania (=prisoners and detainees held in Romania / by Romanian authorities, regardless of their nationality). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:52, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Update: Alt Rename option added I just found Category:Prisoners of war by detaining country, which changed my mind. I'm beginning to think held by Fooland is a better idea than in Fooland. It is even less ambiguous, and this phrasing is already espoused by several other categories in this tree, either implicitly (in a category description, i.e. in Category:Prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment by country) or explicitly (Category:Prisoners of war by detaining country‎, Category:Escapees by detaining authority, Category:Extradited people by country of arrest‎). This is now my preferred option as nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:05, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Regardless of what solution this embraces (I don't object to these people being defined by the country which held them as prisoners), I feel much of the above commentary is redundant to the point. Topciu was held as a political prisoner during his time as a Romanian (his exclusive nationality after 1918); I did not include him in any of the two subcats because it is unclear to me if he was ever processed by either of the two institutions in question. This means that he was in fact a Romanian national imprisoned by Romania, just like Stefanov. So whether you treat them in the category tree by their nationality, or by the country which held them, it amounts to the same -- the only way in which them holding other nationalities would matter here is if they had been Romanian political prisoners of another country (not the case). Dahn (talk) 13:33, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I understand how complicated it is. You do seem to agree that being imprisoned by Romania is the defining factor here, not having Romanian nationality while being imprisoned. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:05, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: @Dahn Category:Prisoners of war by detaining country has catnames such as Category:Prisoners of war held by Romania‎. Might Category:Political prisoners held by Romania‎ be an even better idea? It more closely aligns with the "detained by" phrasing of subcats Category:People detained by the Securitate and Category:People detained by the Siguranța. It also more explicitly focuses on the detaining authority rather than the location where prisoners were being held.
 * So, if country A invades country B and occupies part of B's territory, and imprisons several civilians of B for political reasons (e.g. resisting A's occupation of B), those civilians would be Political prisoners held by A rather than Political prisoners in B. The fact that authorities of country A imprisoned them is probably more significant than the fact that the location they were held in was B (their own country). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:16, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think any option would work, with minimal changes, but I think that perhaps the tree should be consistent with one nomenclature. If you're changing them to "in Fooland", might as well apply the same nomenclature here. Dahn (talk) 14:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with consistency, and I initially tried to make the whole list consistent by naming them all in Fooland. But when I just found Category:Prisoners of war by detaining country, that changed my mind. I'm beginning to think held by Fooland is a better idea. It is even less ambiguous, and this phrasing is already espoused by several other categories in this tree, either implicitly or explicitly. I've just added some category descriptions, and have submitted two speedy renames:
 * Category:People who died in prison custody by country to Category:People who died in prison custody by detaining country – just to make it absolutely clear we're not talking about nationality when we say "country".
 * Category:Escapees by detaining authority to Category:Escapees by detaining country – for consistency's sake.
 * Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:59, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support alt per consistency with cousin categories. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:14, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. Uncontested and uncontroversial nomination. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 01:44, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting ghost trick
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. As much as I think Ghost Trick is good, this category only contains 3 things, one of which is a navbox. There doesn't seem to be a likelihood it will expand further, and with one game, it is dubious to call it a "franchise". In the unlikely event of a sequel, it can be revisited. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:35, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Texts of medieval France
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. All of the concerns raised during the nomination have been resolved. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 01:45, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting texts of medieval france
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:ARBITRARYCAT. Unlike Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 21, which was already complicated enough, I see no way to re-purpose or refine the scope of this category into something useful. It mixes up language, country of production, and topic.
 * E.g. Category:Carolingian Latin literature and its child Category:Carolingian Latin historical texts are written in Latin (not French), often outside the modern borders of France, and not about France but about various other topics in other settings, such as De Pippini regis Victoria Avarica celebrating the victory of King Pepin of Italy over the Avars in the summer of 796. Nothing "French/France" about it.
 * Next, Category:Chronicles about France aren't necessarily written in French, they could also be in Latin or Anglo-Norman, and the latter are often more about England than France.
 * Meanwhile, Category:Medieval French literature may only contain items written in French, but works like Gargantua and Pantagruel and Reynard the Fox are completely fictional and are not set in "medieval France", and often not even written "in medieval French" (e.g. Van den vos Reynaerde is the Dutch version of the Reynard cycle, most likely produced in Ghent, Flanders, mix of France/HRE).
 * Finally, Category:Old French texts aren't necessarily written in medieval France, nor about medieval France, e.g. some Category:Old French chronicles about the Crusades also exist.
 * There is just nothing holding this category together, no red line. It's all vaguely "French", but in different ways, arbitrarily lumped together as a catch-all. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:54, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom, though I think we can move Category:Old French texts under Category:Medieval French literature. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:56, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe. There is a larger problem in this whole tree that assumes all literature produced in France is written in French, which just isn't the case. Latin really is a different language. French literature itself admits this, pointing out in the lead section already that Francophone literature is distinct, and that much has also been written in France in Latin or Celtic languages. And even though modern people in France remain quite proud of the French language, increasingly books are written and published by French authors in English directly, not just first in French and then translated. This literature is "French" only by location (or nationality, but I think that's WP:NONDEFINING), not by language, but it certainly should count as "French literature". So I don't think Category:French-language literature should be a parent of Category:French literature, thereby claiming everything ever written in France was written in French. It wasn't, and it won't. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:21, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Problem noted. But would this prevent us to put Category:Old French texts under Category:Medieval French literature? Marcocapelle (talk) 18:03, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * No. Per main article Medieval French literature that should be ok. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:46, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, ✅ that. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.