Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 11

 &lt; June 10 June 12 &gt;

Category:Australian Survivor contestants
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 29%23Category:Australian Survivor contestants

Category:Works attributed to David

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:42, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting works attributed to david
 * Nominator's rationale: Just a WP:POVFORK of category:Psalms really - a list of almost all the Psalms attributed to the quasi-mythological King David as the presumed author; which is the vast majority of them. A better handling of this information, if it is indeed even necessary, would be a brief statement on the page Psalms, or a sub-category of category:Psalms, listing the few Psalms not attributed to David. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:14, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 03:13, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose The suggestion invalidates the authorship disputes of individual psalms. Dimadick (talk) 09:16, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment, in fact only about half of the psalms are attributed to David, so potentially we might diffuse Category:Psalms by attribution. However if that does not happen consistently, it would be better to delete this category. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:54, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong Support — however many are "attributed" to David, this is a subcategory of Category:Works of uncertain authorship. There's nothing here (other than a headnote) denoting the uncertain authorship, and the authorship or attribution is not verifiable. Better a well-referenced section in the article. Under no circumstances would Kentish Psalm be attributed to David, as it was millenia later. This is WP:POV category abuse, contrary to policy.
 * Delete You can't get around WP:V by adding wiggle room to the category name. - RevelationDirect (talk)
 * Just for clarification, the attribution is in the psalm text itself, so in that sense it is verifiable. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:52, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
 * That's a really good point. Deferring to others whether this is defining. - RevelationDirect (talk) 10:41, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not in Psalm 2 itself. Only the Book of Acts in the New Testament attributes it to David, but that's essentially WP:SYNTH.
 * I do think main article Psalms should have an "Authorship" section rather than some scattered sentences here and there. This allows us to explain why these attributions to David (or Allah, according to Islam) exist, and why they are generally rejected by modern biblical scholars as the text already says. That seems the best way to deal with this (better than Listify, which is often a good solution to these kinds of categories in which membership is arguable). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 17:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Srtong keep but Rename to Category:Psalms of David. Those familiar with the Hebrew Bible (aka Old Testament) will know that many psalms are preceded by a statement as to their authorship. This should be treated as a RS.  There is inevitably some doubt, as the collection of 150 psalms that has come down to us has inevitably been edited during or after the Exile when the present canon of the Hebrew Bible was completed, but that is typical of works of the period.  I would question this being parented to "works of uncertain authorship": the authorship is clear, the question is whether that is credible.  There should be some sibling categories: Psalms 42-49 are labelled as of the Sons of Korah, also 85 87-8; 50 and 73-83 are Psalms of Asaph.  I strongly object to King David being called semi-mythological, which is a misuse of the word myth.  I suspect that there are a multitude of more recent works where we only know who the author is because the title page gives a name.  This is no different in principle, merely older.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:28, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per David - "...no psalm can be attributed to David with certainty". - jc37 03:17, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, WAS, RD, and Jc37. I only have to add that I have not seen any serious modern scholars attribute any psalm to David. Most question his existence, or at least say it has been wildly exaggerated later traditions. Categories are just not a good way to take a stand on authorship questions, especially if it doesn't really matter who or how many people attribute work X to person Y. PS: Yeah some texts themselves claim to have been written by David, but those words could easily represent later interpolations (as we know from the earliest copies of the First Gospel, which did not yet attribute the text to "Matthew"; probably a case of guessed/mistaken attribution), or - if part of the original text - signify that the whole text is a forgery. This may be the case with especially 2 Peter, which is widely regarded as a forgery by modern scholars. How seriously should Wikipedia still take an attribution that has already been rejected by scholarly consensus? I think we shouldn't, at least not for categorisation purposes.
 * 2 Peter has little to do with this. Psalms are poetry so the text as a whole can't be forgery. This discussion is just about whether or not the opening statement of the psalm text is a defining characteristic. I'd say it is borderline. By categorizing as "attributed to" we already imply that it is not surely written by. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:59, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I know, I'm just using 2 Peter as an analogy. (Turns out there is actually a Category:Petrine-related books, which is about Books attributed to Peter the Apostle, so we are theoretically talking about the same situation, and I'm considering to CfD it as well). Just because a text says it's written by Foo doesn't mean we need to categorise that as if it is a fact, let alone a significant fact. To play the devil's advocate: would it be a good idea to create a subcategory of Category:Psalms named Category:Psalms misattributed to David or Category:Psalms forged in the name of David? I don't think so, but it is arguably a legitimate categorisation.
 * I think we need to look for "attributed" precedents in the CfD archives, which may give us guidance on what to do in situations like this. Here's what I found:
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2015 January 17 (also Beethoven and Bach): no consensus. It's complicated.
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2011 February 10: rename. If an author has published works under their real name plus one or more pseudonyms which are known to be pseudonyms of that author, the works should be categorised/renamed according to the author's real name.
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2016 October 4: keep.
 * Categories for deletion/Log/2006 April 5: keep. While not directly relevant to authorship debates, I found the following vote interesting: Oppose move. No need to weaselize. In other words, renaming the category to Foos attributed to Bar would violate "Unsupported attributions" (better known as MOS:WEASEL).
 * This last one is close to the point I was making with Categories are just not a good way to take a stand on authorship questions, especially if it doesn't really matter who or how many people attribute work X to person Y. (emphasis by me). The text itself may say "a psalm of David", but who wrote those words? The original author? (Then it was genuinely David, or a forger). A later editor? (Then it was an interpolation, perhaps based on nothing more than a guess, which could easily be mistaken - just like the attribution of the First Gospel to "Matthew", or the Epistle to the Hebrews to "Paul"; names not found in the oldest surviving copies). We don't know.
 * And simply pointing to the text as evidence is circular reasoning / WP:CIRC/WP:REFLOOP (Who wrote it? "David, because the text itself says so". How do we know David and not somebody else wrote those words? "Because David tells us with those words that he wrote those words himself." How do we know that? "The text says so." Etc.).
 * So, the self-attribution of the text to David cannot be used for categorisation purposes, because it violates MOS:WEASEL. To prevent violating WEASEL, we must find an independent, named authority who attributes Psalm X to David. The text itself can't do that. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * MOS:WEASEL is to avoid descriptions that do not come to the point, this is not applicable here because "attributed to" is a spot-on description in this particular case. Regarding authority, I suppose that biblical scholars will mention the attributed authorship when discussing the psalm text, that is why the attribution could be a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment - In looking over this again, and looking at Psalms, this might make a nice list. Where each each Psalm's legendary origins may be explained. But, not a category. - jc37 14:14, 27 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bishops of Gibraltar

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 04:37, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Bishops of Gibraltar to Category:Bishops in Gibraltar
 * Nominator's rationale: per Category:Bishops by country Estopedist1 (talk) 17:24, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep - these are people whose title is 'Bishop of Gibraltar' and there are no other bishops in Gibraltar. Oculi (talk) 18:04, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The Anglican bishops have all of mainland Europe as their territory, in that respect "Bishops in Gibraltar" is more precise. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:31, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep but remove from the parent "by country" category as it is not a country. Until something like Category:Religious organizations based in insular areas of the United States is created for dependent territories of Europe, then just leave it in Europe. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:30, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * keep per above. Mangoe (talk) 01:53, 19 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists politicians
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: listify. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists politicians to Category:Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists members
 * Nominator's rationale: OUN wasn't a political party per se, it was more of a movement, many members cannot be described as "politicians" Marcelus (talk) 21:04, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:26, 8 April 2023 (UTC) William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:07, 8 April 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 01:57, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt rename Category:Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists politicians to Category:Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists leaders and purge. Mere membership is not a defining characteristic, see e.g. Olha Ilkiv where it is only mentioned in passing. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:05, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I cannot agree, "leaders" has a much narrower scope; we need a category storing all OUN members and activists. Marcelus (talk) 10:54, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * No, we need the narrower scope. It is very rare to categorize just membership (of anything), because it is not a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Membership in the OUN was certainly a defining characteristic, most if not all people in this category have information about it in the lead. The OUN was not a philatelic club. Marcelus (talk) 09:30, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Above I already gave the example of Olha Ilkiv for whom it is not defining. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Of course it was defining for her, did you read her biography? Marcelus (talk) 20:40, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, and the OUN isn't mentioned until far into her article. She is notable for her activities in the militia, she was not a leader or a politician.
 * I just changed that, the information about OUN membership should be much higher. In general the article isn't very good, so I wouldn't put much attention to it. Marcelus (talk) 08:49, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt rename Category:Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists politicians to Category:Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists leaders and purge. Many are not politicians. Mere membership is rarely defining, and association is never defining.
 * Rename per nom. This proposal makes sense. "leaders" is an WP:ARBITRARYCAT WP:SUBJECTIVECAT rabbit-hole, let's not go there. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:25, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 17:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment - ugh. So, "members" creates WP:DEFINING and maintenance issues; and "leaders" is a word we should just avoid in categorisation. I thought about "activists", but being a member of something doesn't necessarily make one an activist. Due to the issues here, I think I'm leaning towards Listify to List of Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists members, and then Delete. - jc37 10:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
 * That is a good alternative. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:08, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Strongly oppose, being member of the OUN is clearly defining for the all people listed in the category. Marcelus (talk) 22:55, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm open to being convinced, do you have references supporting that assertion? Key words being "clearly defining", and "all". - jc37 00:32, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Kamikaze in fiction
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 04:39, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Kamikaze in fiction to Category:Kamikaze
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory and a redirect. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:51, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 17:02, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment. I am curious what would User:Daranios and User:TompaDompa think about this? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:08, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Can't claim to have much experience with category matters like this, I'm afraid. TompaDompa (talk) 21:00, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Note - I removed the redirect, and moved the subcat to Category:Kamikaze, which left the category with no members. Anyone can revert, if they really think this cat is needed. Though I would suggest building a list, with references, instead. - jc37 22:10, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Category has been emptied. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:45, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I am surprised we don't have any articles on novels about kamikaze, or kaiten. I don't recall any titles now, but I would expect that some of them would have articles. If we do have some, the "in fiction" category would have membership. -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 23:14, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians interested in health and hygiene
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 27%23Category:Wikipedians interested in health and hygiene

Category:10th-century Kings of the Romans
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 04:40, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting 10th-century kings of the romans
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, the title King of the Romans was established in 1002, i.e. in the 11th century. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:19, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Well-spotted. On a related note, why is Charlemagne in Category:9th-century Holy Roman Emperors? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:53, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No wait, why does that category exist at all? Holy Roman Empire generally starts at 962. The two references claiming it started in 800 are both quite old (1899 and 1967), WP:AGEMATTERS. CfD that one too? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:01, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * As the title of a monarch it seems there is a sort of succession since 800. Of course the Holy Roman Empire as the name of a country is only applied since 962. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. I don't normally support fudges, but back then, who's to say when a state as we now know it was created? Calling someone a "King of X" was usually taken to mean that X was sovereign as we would now call it. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:34, 15 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Photography museums and galleries
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:54, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Austria‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Austrian photography organisations and Category:Art museums and galleries in Austria
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Belgium‎ (2 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Belgian photography organisations and Category:Art museums and galleries in Belgium
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in China‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in China and Category:Art museums and galleries in China‎
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in the Czech Republic‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in the Czech Republic and Category:Art museums and galleries in the Czech Republic
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Denmark‎ (3 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Danish photography organisations and Category:Art museums and galleries in Denmark
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Egypt‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Egypt and Category:Art museums and galleries in Egypt
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Greece‎ (2 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Greek photography organisations and Category:Art museums and galleries in Greece
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Iran‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Iran and Category:Art museums and galleries in Iran
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Italy‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Italian photography organisations and Category:Art museums and galleries in Italy
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in South Korea‎ (2 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in South Korea and Category:Art museums and galleries in South Korea
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Latvia‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Latvia and Category:Art museums and galleries in Latvia
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Lebanon‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Lebanon and Category:Art museums and galleries in Lebanon‎
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Luxembourg‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Luxembourg and Category:Art museums and galleries in Luxembourg
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Mexico‎ (3 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Mexico and Category:Art museums and galleries in Mexico
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Morocco‎ (2 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Africa and Category:Art museums and galleries in Morocco‎
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Norway‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Norwegian photography organisations and Category:Art museums and galleries in Norway
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Poland‎ (2 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Polish photography organisations and Category:Art museums and galleries in Poland
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Portugal‎ (2 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Europe and Category:Art museums and galleries in Portugal
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Russia‎ (3 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Russian photography organisations and Category:Art museums and galleries in Russia
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Senegal‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Africa and Category:Art museums and galleries in Senegal
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in South Africa‎ (3 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:South African photography organisations and Category:Art museums and galleries in South Africa
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Sweden‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Swedish photography organisations and Category:Art museums and galleries in Sweden
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Switzerland‎ (3 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Switzerland and Category:Art museums and galleries in Switzerland
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Thailand‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Thailand and Category:Art museums and galleries in Thailand‎
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Turkey‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Turkey and Category:Art museums and galleries in Turkey
 * Propose merging Category:Photography museums and galleries in Vietnam‎ (1 P) to Category:Photography museums and galleries, Category:Photography in Vietnam and Category:Art museums and galleries in Vietnam‎
 * Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:00, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 12:33, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Category:Photography museums and galleries in Thailand, which has been emptied. The sole member, Museum of Imagery Technology, was incorrectly categorised here instead of under Category:Photographic technology museums. --Paul_012 (talk) 23:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The following articles should also be checked, as they're currently under both trees: Lacock Abbey, National Science and Media Museum, Optical Museum Jena, MuseuMAfricA, H. H. Bennett Studio, Life in a Lens Museum of Photography & Old Times, UCR/California Museum of Photography, Latvian Museum of Photography, Museum of the History of Photography, Kraków, Société française de photographie, Museo Nazionale Alinari della Fotografia, Sant Andreu de Llavaneres Archive Museum --Paul_012 (talk) 23:12, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge for Now with no objection to recreating any that exceed expectations and get to 5+ articles. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:19, 17 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Assassinated judges
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 04:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Assassinated judges by nationality (4 C) to Category:Assassinated judges
 * Propose merging Category:Assassinated Finnish judges‎ (1 P) to Category:Assassinated judges and Category:Assassinated Finnish people
 * Propose merging Category:Assassinated Sri Lankan judges‎ (1 P) to Category:Assassinated judges and Category:Assassinated Sri Lankan people
 * Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, and besides there are only 10 more articles in Category:Assassinated judges so it is completely meaningless to expand this tree on a short term. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:55, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 15:12, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Oculi (talk) 14:01, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge for Now While a couple countries might be viable subcats here, creating a whole by country tree is not warranted given the article count. No objection to creating/recreating any country that reaches 5+ articles (and hopefully that doesn't happen given the topic). - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:42, 17 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bus stations in Perth, Western Australia
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 04:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Bus stations in Perth, Western Australia to Category:Transperth bus stations
 * Nominator's rationale: For consistency with List of Transperth bus stations. Also, Lakelands and Mandurah stations are not in Perth but are in the Transperth system so the current name does not make sense. Steelkamp (talk) 05:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support: per nom. Does make sense. Fork99 (talk) 06:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Railway stations in Perth, Western Australia
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 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 04:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Railway stations in Perth, Western Australia to Category:Transperth railway stations
 * Nominator's rationale: For consistency with List of Transperth railway stations, which was moved in 2021. This would be a more natural grouping than "railway stations in Perth", which excludes Lakelands and Mandurah stations, but includes non-Transperth stations such as Byford or Mundijong stations. If this is renamed, then another category can be created for Transwa railway stations. Steelkamp (talk) 05:55, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment: This one I’m on the fence about. In theory I think it makes sense, however, it would not be consistent with other categories for railway stations in other cities of Australia, such as . However, if the principle is that because Transperth serves stations outside of the Perth metropolitan area, then I may change this to a support. If in this case, this does go through, we need to fix up the categories for Queensland Rail stations as they also run outside of the Brisbane metropolitan area. I don’t think Adelaide Metro or Metro Trains Melbourne run out of their respective metropolitan areas, but feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Fork99 (talk) 06:10, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm actually looking at those other categories right now to see if they should be changed too. Steelkamp (talk) 06:15, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Or maybe: we could just change every single “stations in bla city category” to “operator’s stations category” + categories for the regional/intercity train operators. I don’t see the harm in that, and it’s easily adjustable in the future in case of a name change or expansion of the metropolitan rail operator’s network into rural areas. Though, I’ve just had a look to see how it’s done in the US, Union Station (Los Angeles) has categories for both its operator(s) AND for the city it’s in. Fork99 (talk) 06:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Also note for context for anyone from outside of Australia: each capital city (if it does have a rail network), only has one suburban/urban/commuter rail operator (with the sole exception of Sydney Trains and Sydney Metro), and maybe a regional operator (that is also run by that capital city’s state government) for intercity/regional trains. Fork99 (talk) 06:28, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Another Comment (sorry): We also need to take into consideration railway stations that are closed that are in these categories, as they may have never been in operation under the contemporary rail operator. Fork99 (talk) 06:36, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support: while taking into consideration the comments above. Please also take into consideration a separate discussion that has taken place at User talk:Fork99. Fork99 (talk) 07:35, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Viceregal rulers
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: split and rename. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 04:44, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose splitting Category:6th-century BC viceregal rulers to Category:6th-century BC governors and Category:6th-century BC regents
 * Propose splitting Category:5th-century BC viceregal rulers to Category:5th-century BC governors and Category:5th-century BC regents
 * Propose splitting Category:4th-century BC viceregal rulers to Category:4th-century BC governors and Category:4th-century BC regents
 * Propose splitting Category:2nd-century BC viceregal rulers to Category:2nd-century BC governors and Category:2nd-century BC regents
 * Propose splitting Category:1st-century viceregal rulers to Category:1st-century governors and Category:1st-century regents
 * Propose splitting Category:2nd-century viceregal rulers to Category:2nd-century governors and Category:2nd-century regents
 * Propose splitting Category:3rd-century viceregal rulers to Category:3rd-century governors and Category:3rd-century regents
 * Propose splitting Category:4th-century viceregal rulers to Category:4th-century governors and Category:4th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:5th-century viceregal rulers to Category:5th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:6th-century viceregal rulers to Category:6th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:7th-century viceregal rulers to Category:7th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:8th-century viceregal rulers to Category:8th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:9th-century viceregal rulers to Category:9th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:10th-century viceregal rulers to Category:10th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:11th-century viceregal rulers to Category:11th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:12th-century viceregal rulers to Category:12th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:13th-century viceregal rulers to Category:13th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:14th-century viceregal rulers to Category:14th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:15th-century viceregal rulers to Category:15th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:16th-century viceregal rulers to Category:16th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:17th-century viceregal rulers to Category:17th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:18th-century viceregal rulers to Category:18th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:19th-century viceregal rulers to Category:19th-century regents
 * Propose renaming Category:20th-century viceregal rulers to Category:20th-century regents
 * Propose removing parents Category:Viceroys and Category:Governors-general from all regents categories.
 * Nominator's rationale: split/rename, follow-up on this earlier discussion: governors and regents are completely different offices. I think the 5th-century category and higher only contain regents, therefore the proposal for those categories is to rename instead of to split. If I am mistaken they should be split too. pinging contributors to previous discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support as the scope becomes clearer. Dimadick (talk) 06:24, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and earlier discussion. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:21, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:ISIRI standards
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Standards of Iran. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 04:42, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting isiri standards
 * Nominator's rationale: delete and move the three articles to Category:Standards of Iran, per WP:SMALLCAT, the category is mainly populated with redirects to the same list article. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:33, 30 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment: with a list, two regular articles and a pack of redirects, this is more worthwhile than most siblings in Category:Standards by organization. – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:13, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The parent category with one article and this category with three articles is nevertheless better to be merged. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 04:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge Articles I'm wondering if a redirect category would be helpful here. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:00, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Yes, merging and keeping it as a redirect would surely be helpful. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Thai Industrial Standards
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 29%23Category:Thai Industrial Standards

Category:Heads of state of Austria
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 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  18:02, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose downmerging Category:Heads of state of Austria to Category:Presidents of Austria
 * Nominator's rationale: Redundant layer. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:09, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 04:39, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: Shouldn't Category:Emperors of Austria also be under there somehow? But if there's agreed intent to separate modern countries from their historical predecessors in such categories, then go ahead. --Paul_012 (talk) 10:21, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Why was category Monarchs of Austria excluded? Dimadick (talk) 14:32, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Laurel Lodged excluded it on 1 October 2021 saying "not part of the modern republic of Austria". If we consider Austria-Hungary, Austrian Empire etc. to be predecessor states of 'the modern republic of Austria', then it's reasonable to restore monarchs of Austria, and it would no longer be a redundant layer. I see that you've already done that, so this nomination has no rationale anymore and I withdraw the nomination. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Support, the (arch)dukes of Austria were subordinate to the Holy Roman Emperor, so "head of state" is really inappropriate. The Austrian Empire was a very different state than the republic of Austria. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:12, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I hadn't actually considered that. I've struck my withdrawal for now, because it seems like there's more to discuss. Would you agree that after 1806 the Category:Emperors of Austria were no longer subordinate to the Holy Roman Emperors and therefore "heads of state of Austria"? It would mean we don't include the whole Category:Monarchs of Austria tree in Category:Heads of state of Austria, just its child Category:Emperors of Austria. Incidentally, Category:Heads of government of Austria also combines the pre-1918 ministers-president of Austria and the post-1918 chancellors of Austria, and all of the above are in Category:Austrian people by occupation. If we want a clear-cut separation at 1918, we may have to disentangle significantly intertwined trees. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:14, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * We want a clear-cut separation at 1918. We have to disentangle significantly intertwined trees. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * So you favour a downmerge? (I'm still open to many options). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:47, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that it's best to just delete Category:Heads of state of Austria. Presidents is adequate on its own. The entire "Heads of state" tree structure is just a dreadful amalgamation of modern states and their historical predecessors. Dukes of Germany, Prince-Bishops of Germany when Germany didn't even exist at that time. Disentangle modern from supposed historical predecessors (which are often more imagined than real). Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:33, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * For now (after Category:Monarchs of Austria has been put back in the tree) that is the solution that fits best with the intention of the nomination. It is apparently Category:Monarchs of Austria that is the more controversial category. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:43, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The point about "Germany" not yet existing is probably one which @Marcocapelle agrees with, don't you? You usually favour "HRE" in such pre-1871 cases. I think Laurel is right to call these categories out as anachronisms. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That is correct. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:18, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Film directors from Alappuzha
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 29%23Category:Film directors from Alappuzha

Category:Kennedy Center honorees
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 1%23Category:Kennedy Center honorees

Foreign relations of the medieval Islamic world
Relisted, see Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 29%23Foreign relations of the medieval Islamic world

Category:National Football League Olympians
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 04:14, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 04:43, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting national football league olympians
 * Propose deleting Category:Olympic rugby sevens players of the National Football League
 * Propose deleting Category:Olympic wrestlers of the National Football League
 * Propose deleting Category:Track and field athletes in the National Football League
 * Nominator's rationale: Cross categorisation that fits better in a list, which it is: List of National Football League Olympians. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 10:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 11:41, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete as a trivial intersection.--User:Namiba 21:06, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Categorize them under both trees, this combo cat is a trivial intersection. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:54, 17 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ukrainian-speaking countries and territories
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. Additionally, no cleanup is needed except for one article that does not identify an official language. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 17:13, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Ukrainian-speaking countries and territories to Category:Countries and territories where Ukrainian is an official language
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 04:02, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, apart from Transnistria there are only territories in the category roughly within the current boundaries of Ukraine. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The relevant point is that most of them are former countries, not the same as the current republic called "Ukraine", which was established in 1991. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:32, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Update siblings about Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil have recently been renamed to ...where Fooian is an official language for the same or similar reasons as in the rationale. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:13, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.