Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 2

 &lt; June 1 June 3 &gt;

Category:Sports coaches by country and club or team

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 04:53, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Sports coaches by country and club or team to Category:Sports coaches by country
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer, this is the only subcategory of the target. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge This layer is redundant, at least for the moment (creator; G7). Kaffet i halsen (talk) 19:47, 4 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Buddhist governments

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Buddhist states. The category contents will be changed as well prior to rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 04:54, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Buddhist governments to Category:Buddhist states
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C siblings in parent Category:Countries by state religion are all named Fooian states, and precedent "Historical Hindu empires" led to the merger of Category:Hindu governments into Category:Hindu states. We could then populate it with all cited items in State religion. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:55, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support No personal preference on one name versus the other but we should be consistent to aid navigation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:23, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: the other categories include countries, but this category includes Governments of countries. If this is renamed, the contents should be changed. —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 21:21, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:57, 3 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People by country

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus.  ✗  plicit  02:00, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:People by country to Category:People by country of residence
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC, to avoid confusion with the Category:People by nationality tree, and WP:C2C children Category:Expatriates by country of residence and Category:Refugees by country of resettlement.
 * TL;DR version: I think
 * "by country" was not intended to mean "by nationality" (otherwise they wouldn't be separate category trees),
 * "by country of residence" is the most obvious meaning of "by country", and
 * any other meaning I could think of, like "tourist destination", would be WP:NONDEFINING.
 * So renaming to "by country of residence" is the only option that makes sense to me.
 * (PS: I actually did run into another meaning, namely "country of study", see 'Comment' below).


 * Long version: This follows an exchange I had with @Laurel Lodged about "Category:Nuns from the Russian Empire". I reasoned all the way up the category tree and observed the following:


 * Category:People from the Russian Empire (which set the precedent for the "from" CfRs) is in Category:People by former country. The CfR did not address the issue of nationality, but the category was already in Category:People by former country before the move. When I look at Category:Historians from the Russian Empire, I also see that it is in Category:Historians by former country. That category, however, defines itself as This category is meant to group categories for historians by the country they were nationals or subjects from in cases where the country no longer exists. So here it does mean "nationality", and one of its parents is also Category:Historians by nationality. The other parent Category:People by former country defines itself as People from locations that were at one point countries. Okay, but in which respect are they "from" that former country? As nationals/subjects, as residents, as tourists? It doesn't say.


 * Category:People by country currently does not define itself at all. But it does have children such as Category:Expatriates by country of residence and Category:Refugees by country of resettlement, which strongly suggest that the "People by country" tree is meant for where people actually live. We need to define it as, and probably rename it to, Category:People by country of residence. I think that is the only thing that makes sense aside from "nationality". We wouldn't go and define Category:People by country of tourist destination or something, and Category:People by nationality already covers people by their primary-legal-attachment-to-a-particular-country-even-if-they-don't-reside-there. After all, if Category:People by country means the same as Category:People by nationality, it is redundant and should be merged into it; but I think the evidence shows it is meant to categorise people by country of residence, regardless of whether that coincides with their nationality or not. The result is probably going to be that Fooian people means "people with Fooian nationality", while People from Fooland means "people who reside / have resided in Fooland", even if they have/had Barian nationality.


 * Therefore, in order to disentangle the "by country" and "by nationality" trees, we should specificy that the former means "by country of residence".


 * Note: I don't think we should categorise all people into both Category trees. The "by country of residence" tree is probably most useful and defining for pre-modern times (before c. 1800) after which "nationality" (and citizenship) became a much more important concept and everyday feature of people's lives. Before 1800, we may not only run into anachronisms, but WP:V problems (most states didn't keep a civil registry yet), while place (and thus country) of residence will probably still be easy to verify in most cases from other historical documents (family archives, (auto)biographies etc.). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:34, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I was about to say: merge to Category:People by nationality, because the overlap with nationality is huge. But the latter category already contains a large variety of subcategories, so that is not a good alternative. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:50, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I think
 * "by country" was not intended to mean "by nationality",
 * "country of residence" is the most obvious meaning, and
 * any other meaning I could think of, like "tourist destination", would be WP:NONDEFINING.
 * So renaming to "by country of residence" is the only option that makes sense to me. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:04, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment Category:Historians by country points out that just "by country" is ambiguous, because it can mean "nationality" and "country of study". But I think we are forgetting "country of residence" as a third meaning. If I moved to, say, Denmark, while studying the history of, say, Malawi, I would still be a Dutch historian (nationality), but also a Historian from Denmark (country of residence), and a Historian of Malawi (country of study). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:49, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment "Country of residence", "Country of birth", "Country of citizenship or nationality", "Country of ethnic origin", "Country of ancestral origin";;; and a "Dutch historian" could be a historian of the Dutch language, or a historian who publishes in the Dutch language as well... -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 07:12, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I do not think this is a good idea, after all. In practice we are putting people in nationality categories based on their residency, as we do not always know about people's official citizenship, and besides official citizenship is a fairly recent concept anyway. Renaming this to country of residency might wrongly suggest that nationality categories are only based on passport. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle Well, isn't that a reason to support the nomination? Instead of pretending to know someone's nationality based on their country of residence (or birth?) and potentially miscategorising them, we only put them in a category based on information we can actually verify. That nationality is a modern concept is precisely another important reason not to apply it to pre-modern people. Besides, if neither "by country of residence" nor "by nationality", what else would you have "by country" mean? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:02, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Reply Given the above comments we have only two options (1) Delete the entire tree structure because we cannot peek into a person's passport (2) rename as proposed. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it's rather a reason not to support the nomination. When we call this category specifically "by country of residence" it will suggest that the huge tree by nationality is not by residence while in fact it is (at least partially). It's better to keep the difference as vague as possible. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:03, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Keeping a category (and its tree structure) just because it is usefully vague is not a good idea. Precision is best. If precision cannot be achieved then delete it. The fundamental question is "What function does the "People by country" category serve?". If we cannot answer that in one sentence, then it should go. If it can be answered, and that function serves a useful purpose, but the current name does not reflect that definition, then the name should change.  Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:48, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Laurel Lodged Well said, I completely agree. Plus, @Marcocapelle, if it is true that currently lots of people are miscategorised "by nationality" based on information about their country of residence, shouldn't that be a reason to re-categorise them to a "by country of residence" tree rather than letting the (potential) error persist? At the very least, "by country of residence" is a better option in cases of doubt. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:04, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I do not regard it as miscategorization, rather as a slightly inaccurate naming of the category tree. "By nationality" categories might be called "by country of residence" as well. But it is too much hassle to change a tree as large as this one. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand it will be a hassle to change a large tree. But I think we should correct the tree, rather than keeping an incorrect or ambiguously organised tree. As Laurel said: Keeping a category (and its tree structure) just because it is usefully vague is not a good idea. I'm not making this proposal because it is necessarily easy to do, but because it is the right thing to do per WP:CATSPECIFIC. If we do not address the core problem, it will continue to cause more confusion and other problems. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:12, 14 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep -several of the subcategories are not by country of residence, so it doesn't work. Oculi (talk) 11:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't we try to correct the tree then, rather than having an incorrect or ambiguously organised tree? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:08, 14 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:WikiGap Nigeria Online contest
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Wikipedia:WikiGap Nigeria Online. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 05:03, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:WikiGap Nigeria Online contest to Category:Wikipedia:WikiGap Nigeria Online
 * Nominator's rationale: There really is no need for a second layer here and the sub-category seems to be better named and has most pages. Gonnym (talk) 08:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Question is the closing parenthesis ")" intentional in the target category's name? - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:26, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The target is being speedily renamed. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I have removed the closing parenthesis from the nomination, after the speedy rename of the target. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Got it! - RevelationDirect (talk) 22:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Downmerge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Downmerge per nom. - RevelationDirect (talk) 22:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Standards
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 05:01, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Standards of Afghanistan‎ (1 P) to Category:Standards and Category:Regulation in Afghanistan
 * Propose merging Category:Standards of Belgium‎ (1 P) to Category:Standards and Category:Regulation in Belgium
 * Propose merging Category:Standards of Mexico‎ (1 P) to Category:Standards and Category:Regulation in Mexico
 * Propose merging Category:Standards of Nepal‎ (2 P) to Category:Standards and Category:Regulation in Nepal
 * Propose merging Category:Standards of South Africa‎ (1 P) to Category:Standards and Category:Regulation in South Africa
 * Propose merging Category:Standards of Ukraine‎ (2 P) to Category:Standards and Category:Regulation in Ukraine
 * Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, only 1 or 2 articles in each of these categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:52, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:24, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge for Now with no objection to recreation if any ever get to 5+ articles. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:28, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom, but not all articles need to be merged to Category:Standards as some are already in that tree. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:49, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Good point, then the merge should be implemented manually. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Shinto shrines by rank
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 05:01, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting Category:Ninomiya
 * Propose deleting Category:Sannomiya
 * Propose deleting Category:Shinomiya
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, not a defining characteristic of the articles. The categories contain Shinto shrines of second, third and fourth rank. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:24, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete overly granular. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom -- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:58, 9 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.