Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 20

 &lt; June 19 June 21 &gt;

Category:7th-millennium BC people
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 11%23Category:7th-millennium BC people

Category:People from the Kingdom of Ireland
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 11%23Category:People from the Kingdom of Ireland

Category:Bosnian queens

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: alt rename / keep. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:50, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Bosnian queens to Category:Consorts of Bosnia
 * Propose merging Category:Bosnian duchesses into Category:Consorts of Bosnia
 * Alt (Marcocapelle): Rename Category:Bosnian queens to Category:Queens consort of Bosnia; Keep for now Category:Bosnian duchesses
 * Nominator's rationale: More WP:CATSPECIFIC. All of these women were queens consort, with Helen of Bosnia also being a queen consort before becoming the apparent only queen regnant in Bosnian history. Category:Bosnian duchesses is a WP:SMALLCAT (2 P) containing only duchesses/banesses consort. I've already WP:BOLDly renamed main article List of Bosnian royal consorts to List of consorts of Bosnia, because it includes banesses and duchesses consort, to whom "royal" does not apply (compare List of Milanese consorts), and because per "Suggestion B", we should name this to "consorts of Foo". See also my new merger proposal at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:20, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I am not at all sure about this. The word consort means "a husband or wife, especially of a monarch", "a companion or partner". "Consorts of Bosnia" therefore seems a bit silly, as one cannot be married to a country. Following up on that, everyone knows what to expect to find in Category:Queens of Bosnia, while Category:Consorts of Bosnia would leave many scratching their heads due to either not knowing what consorts means or, indeed, due to knowing what it means. The latter could reasonably include all married people from Bosnia. Surtsicna (talk) 15:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Surtsicna You raise valid points, but I think I can answer them all. I've posed a question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Archive 10 which addresses all of this, and I would like to invite you to participate. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should take one step at a time, e.g. by renaming Category:Bosnian queens to Category:Queens consort of Bosnia or Category:Bosnian queens consort. "Queens" is ambiguous and this category should be parented to Category:Queens consort. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:30, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle Perhaps, but that leaves the duchesses consort and banesses consort questions unanswered. I've posed a question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Archive 10 which addresses all of this, and I would like to invite you to participate. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:47, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way, when we were faced with the same question for List of Milanese consorts, you and I concluded it would not be necessary to rename Category:Duchesses of Milan to Category:Duchesses consort of Milan, because they were all consorts, and it would make more sense to create a new separate category for Category:Ladies of Milan, which we did. The two situations are very similar, except that Helen of Bosnia was also briefly a queen regnant after having been a queen consort (and creating Category:Queens regnant of Bosnia just for Helen would be a WP:SMALLCAT, so that won't help), and we probably don't have enough duchesses consort and banesses consort of Bosnia to prevent SMALLCAT. So, I concluded renaming to Category:Consorts of Bosnia, and including the duchesses consort and banesses consort, is the best solution in this case. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:59, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It would suffice to have Helen in Category:Queens consort of Bosnia as well as in Category:Queens regnant in Europe. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:35, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Surtsicna Why have you removed Maria of Bosnia from the list? Her own bio says Maria too was aware of her higher status and, in addition to the title Countess of Helfenstein, often referred to herself as Duchess of Bosnia. From 1365 until 1399, she signed her donations as "Maria Herzogin von Bosnien". It is supported by multiple reliable sources.
 * Moreover, you have boldly renamed the list to List of banesses and queens of Bosnia. I don't think that's a good idea when we are in the middle of a discussion about its title and scope. Admittedly, I boldly renamed the main article just before I CfR'd and CfM'd the categories, but that was because I did not expect it to be controversial. I'm quite open to changing the title to something else, but not in the middle of a discussion, especially when no proposal for this new title was made, let alone accepted, by anyone in the discussion. I hope we can reach agreements first before changing things under discussion. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:07, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The article is a list of the consorts of the rulers of Bosnia. Maria was not a consort of a ruler of Bosnia. I too am very open for discussion, but I do not think it is a good idea to keep the article in the meantime at a blatantly nonsensical title for which no consensus was sought. Surtsicna (talk) 21:15, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Fair enough then. Let's keep this title for now. Your and other people's comments have given me some pause that I might be wrong, even though that would mean the vast majority of titles of Category:Lists of duchesses must then also be wrong. Perhaps they are. We'll see. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:40, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I've been thinking, and Marco's alt rename of Category:Bosnian queens to Category:Queens consort of Bosnia does seem like a good first step. I don't know what to do with the duchesses and banesses yet. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:30, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt per Marco. For the sake of 1 person, I agree that it would suffice to have Helen in Category:Queens consort of Bosnia as well as in Category:Queens regnant in Europe. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt per and . Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 07:18, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Update Added Alt (Marcocapelle). Looks like there is a consensus for this Alt proposal. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:32, 5 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Medically important anaerobes

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 18:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting medically important anaerobes
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SUBJECTIVECAT containing a mixture of bacteria with different characteristics (about half are Clostridium spp. and related genera). Some pages are not in related categories such as Category:Pathogenic bacteria, but the missing categories differ between the articles. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 12:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:29, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Avar Khanate

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge The rename proposal for the target will need to be handled separatedly since it wasn't tagged or mentioned by the other participants. (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 18:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Avar Khanate to Category:Avar Khans
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:NARROWCAT/WP:OVERLAPCAT, almost exact duplicates. Since we're talking about people, the "Avar Khans" is the obvious target. We might change "Khans" to lowercase "khans" while we're at it. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:25, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: I might add that lots of Avar khans are overcategorised in general. Example. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge as duplicates. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support we're unlikely to see capital cites, governments, royal Palaces etc. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Remaining national anthem compositions by key categories

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Speedy deleted as empty, which was technically out of process, but is moot since there was a clear consensus to delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 18:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting national anthem compositions in b-flat major
 * Propose deleting national anthem compositions in b-flat minor
 * Propose deleting national anthem compositions in c major
 * Propose deleting national anthem compositions in c-sharp major
 * Propose deleting national anthem compositions in a-flat major
 * Propose deleting national anthem compositions in a-flat minor
 * Propose deleting national anthem compositions in a major
 * Propose deleting national anthem compositions in a minor
 * Nominator's rationale: See the previous discussion on June 9. Category:National anthem compositions by key and their subcats were not completely deleted following the discussion on June 9, and thus must be deleted in the same manner. 2405:9800:BA20:ABB:C0FA:94F1:DC15:3A62 (talk) 10:37, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per precedent. –Laundry<b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 12:41, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per precedent. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:30, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete not defining for categorization and per precedent. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:13, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: already marked for speedy deletion under the CSD C1. 2405:9800:BA20:ABB:1C54:9810:3F3A:4FEA (talk) 01:15, 25 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:7th-century rulers in Europe
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: upmerge / reparent (alt nom). (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  11:30, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose upmerging Category:7th-century rulers in Europe to Category:7th-century European people
 * Propose merging Category:7th-century Doges of Venice into sibling Category:7th-century monarchs in Europe
 * Alt proposal: removing all Category:Doges of Venice from the Category:Rulers in Europe tree
 * Alt (Marcocapelle): re-parenting Category:7th-century Doges of Venice to Category:7th-century monarchs in Europe
 * Nominator's rationale (rulers in Europe): Redundant layer. Follow-up to Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 5.


 * Nominator's rationale (Doges of Venice): Category:7th-century Doges of Venice is a 1P WP:SMALLCAT that may be merged into sibling Category:7th-century monarchs in Europe. However, Category:Doges of Venice are in the Category:Dukes of Italy and Category:Italian princes trees, which ultimately do not directly sit in the Category:Monarchs tree, but are in the Category:Monarchy and Category:Nobility trees respectively, and we do kind of consider the Republic of Venice to have been, you know, a republic. So if we do not want the Doges of Venice in the monarchs tree, this is the moment to decide that. Because the same question will need to be answered for the 8th- to 18th-century Doges of Venice.
 * Alt proposal rationale (Doges of Venice): Therefore, removing all Category:Doges of Venice from the Category:Rulers in Europe tree prevents us from categorising the heads of state of the Republic of Venice as "monarchs". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support, keeping the doges of Venice in the monarchs tree. In principle, the doges of Venice ruled until death. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:17, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That's an important fact I hadn't considered. So practically speaking, Venice was an elective monarchy? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is how we call this today. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:34, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Then we should re-parent Category:7th-century Doges of Venice to Category:7th-century monarchs in Europe instead of merging. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:00, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per 's definition. The doges were elective reigning dukes, basically elective monarchs. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 07:26, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nederlandse Leeuw, there seems to be consensus for the alt nom, but I can't quite tell what that means for the categories. E.g. would Category:7th-century rulers in Europe still be upmerged?<span id="Qwerfjkl:1689069394864:WikipediaFTTCLNCategories_for_discussion/Log/2023_June_20" class="FTTCmt"> —  Qwerfjkl  talk  09:56, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Qwerfjkl Hey, yes, sorry, I'll clarify it:
 * Upmerge Category:7th-century rulers in Europe to Category:7th-century European people
 * Re-parent the whole Category:Doges of Venice tree from the Category:Rulers in Europe tree to the Category:Monarchs in Europe tree, including:
 * Re-parent Category:7th-century Doges of Venice to Category:7th-century monarchs in Europe
 * That's what we've essentially agreed above. Does that clear things up? :) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:55, 11 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Bamburgh
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 11%23Category:Rulers of Bamburgh

Category:Albums recorded at Abbey Road Studios
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete The consensus here is clear, despite the WP:BLUDGEONing. (non-admin closure) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 18:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting albums recorded at abbey road studios
 * Nominator's rationale: Deleted and recreated without consensus. See Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_December_10. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:58, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Strong keep. There's already a strong precedent for categories like this one. See everything in Category:Albums recorded in the United States and Category:Albums recorded in the United Kingdom. As a music recording and production major, I think anyone with experience in sound recording would tell you that the studio an album is recorded at is one of its most defining characteristics. It's a decision made before a single note is recorded and influences every aspect of the record. Furthermore, many of these categories, such as Category:Albums recorded at Hitsville U.S.A., represent unique moments in music history. This is very clearly the type of information that an encyclopedia exists to keep track of. The Midnite Wolf (talk) 07:17, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Since people in the last discussion cited WP:NONDEF as reasoning, let's look at the three rules-of-thumb listed:
 * "a defining characteristic is one that reliable, secondary sources commonly and consistently define, in prose, the subject as having." Pretty much any reliable source on an album's creation will talk about the studio it was recorded at, as this has a large impact on the album's sound.
 * "if the characteristic would not be appropriate to mention in the lead portion of an article (determined without regard to whether it is mentioned in the lead), it is probably not defining..." The two featured articles I could find in this category, The Dark Side of the Moon and Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, mention Abbey Road/EMI studios in their first and second paragraphs respectively.
 * "if the characteristic falls within any of the forms of overcategorization mentioned on this page, it is probably not defining." So far, no one has suggested another form of overcategorization that this category falls under. The Midnite Wolf (talk) 17:31, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete per WP:G4. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, it is not a characteristic that is prominently discussed in the articles. Sometimes it is not mentioned at all. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:30, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That's because most of the articles are already pretty short. Featured articles, such as Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, discuss the studio prominently. The Midnite Wolf (talk) 16:56, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Even in that article, there is plenty information about how the Beatles recreated the atmosphere, but hardly anything about the studio itself. The claim that the studio has a large impact on the album's sound does not appear in any form. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:44, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Speedy Delete per WP:G4. The claim is made above that "there's already a strong precedent for categories like this one" but that's just another way of saying WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The actual precedent is right here. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:11, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The only real argument made in the past discussion is WP:NOTDEFINING, which was refuted above. We shouldn’t be beholden to a small discussion three years ago. And see WP:OTHERCATSEXIST for a more nuanced and applicable perspective here. The Midnite Wolf (talk) 00:59, 25 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Alcohol and health
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 11%23Category:Alcohol and health

Category:Political websites by continent
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 11%23Category:Political websites by continent

Category:Istehkam-e-Pakistan Party
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:02, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting istehkam-e-pakistan party
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, too early category creation, with only a main article and a subcategory. The category can easily be recreated if and when there are a handful articles about it. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:37, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 18:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Regional interest user templates
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 11%23Category:Regional interest user templates

Category:Regional WikiProject user templates
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 11%23Category:Regional WikiProject user templates

Category:House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Belgium)
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 11%23Category:House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Belgium)