Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 29

 &lt; June 28 June 30 &gt;

Category:Ukrainian resistance movement

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 16:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Ukrainian resistance movement to Category:Ukrainian anti-Soviet resistance movement
 * Nominator's rationale: Don't see any meaningful difference between what these two categories are for. GCarty (talk) 21:13, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Both articles in the category are clearly anti-Soviet. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Parks in Białystok

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Parks in Podlaskie Voivodeship and Category:Tourist attractions in Poland and Category:Białystok. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 05:44, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Parks in Białystok to Category:Parks in Podlaskie Voivodeship and Category:Tourist attractions in Poland
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 19:11, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. The parent category mixes up constructed parks with nature reserves but that applies to the whole tree. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge for Now Certainly there are other parks, but establishing notability for others will be tough. No objection to recreating if 5+ articles ever emerge. - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:24, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment. Surely merge to Category:Białystok too? -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:12, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Foreign relations of the medieval Islamic world

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge/delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Foreign relations of the medieval Islamic world to Category:Medieval international relations
 * Propose merging Category:Ambassadors to the medieval Islamic world to Category:Medieval diplomats
 * Propose deleting Category:Diplomats from the medieval Islamic world
 * Nominator's rationale: Next step after yesterday's nomination re Treaties. Sorry, I started this before noticing that the nominator was planning further stages. Anyway, I think these clearly follow the same rationale. The members of "Diplomats from" do not need merging as they are already within "Medieval diplomats" by century, and I do not think they should be added to Category:Officials of the medieval Islamic world because that is currently a container category. – Fayenatic  L ondon 08:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per yesterday's discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per yesterday's discussion. @Fayenatic It's okay that you nominated these already. It's not like I'm "entitled" to nominate them just because I have announced planning to eventually nominate the rest as well. It's just my personal strategy to take it one step at a time this time, starting with the easiest ones and establishing consensus and precedents before moving on to the more complicated ones. Because I don't want to end up with a confused and messy big discussion like last time, I'm only taking responsibility for nominations that I think are likely to succeed. Which nominations you would like to take responsibility for, and at which stage, is up to you. I will probably support them regardless. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:37, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose: No concensus that that the parent categories Foreign relations/Ambassadors/Diplomats are really limited to states only. For example, Category:Ambassadors in Greek Antiquity covers a broad time period and and geographic reach and is not specific to one city-state. Al-Andalusi (talk) 00:26, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm open to merging/deleting/splitting Category:Ambassadors in Greek Antiquity (and Category:Interstate relations in ancient Greece) as well, but I prefer awaiting the outcome of Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 29. We should first establish whether something like ancient Greece may be considered a state actor or non-state actor. The implications of that may affect this and future nominations. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:44, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * at second thought, I think the Category:Diplomats from the medieval Islamic world may well be merged to Category:Officials of the medieval Islamic world. This category does not have to be a container category by all means, it just happened to be a container category so far. Later, when this discussion is settled, we may nominate the subcategory for further upmerging, per WP:SMALLCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * IMHO it would be more useful to keep it as "Diplomats" than to merge it to "Officials". – Fayenatic  L ondon 06:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree on keeping them in the diplomats tree, but merging to one does not exclude merging to the other. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:20, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle @Fayenatic london on a completely technical note, "Officials" and "Diplomats" are in different category trees.
 * Category:Government occupations
 * Category:Civil servants
 * Category:Diplomats
 * Category:Government officials
 * It makes sense, because although diplomats do a job relating to "government(s)", they aren't necessarily employed by a particular government, exactly because they often need to position and conduct themselves as a neutral party which is independent of all governments involved in a particular issue. Perhaps Diplomats from tmIw shouldn't be / have been made a child of Officials of tmIw in the first place. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ambassadors are representing a country, they are not neutral. The nominated diplomats category only contains ambassadors. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:20, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, in that case... I suggest we manually move them if necessary, but let's do a survey on that. 5 Diplomats from tmIw:
 * Al-Ghazal: Emirate of Córdoba ambassador to the Byzantine Empire; already categorised as such. Ambassador to "Vikings" disputed.
 * Hasdai ibn Shaprut: Caliphate of Córdoba ambassador to Kingdom of Navarre; not categorised as such, Navarre doesn't have an ambassador category. Ambassador to "Khazars" disputed. Put him in some general ambassador category? Put him in Category:Ambassadors.
 * Recemundus: Caliphate of Córdoba ambassador to Holy Roman Empire; already categorised as such. Caliphate of Córdoba ambassador to the Byzantine Empire; not yet now also categorised as such.
 * Lamak ibn Malik: Sulayhid dynasty ambassador to Fatimid Caliphate; not yet now also categorised as Category:Ambassadors to the Fatimid Caliphate.
 * Muqallid ibn Kamil: Mirdasid dynasty ambassador to the Fatimid Caliphate; not yet now also categorised as such. Ambassador to Byzantine Empire; already categorised as such.
 * Aside from Hasdai we don't need to Upmerge the "diplomats", just a few extra categorisations will suffice. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:36, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ the "not yets". Now nothing stands in the way of deleting Diplomats from tmIw. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:43, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Except my earlier request for merging to Category:Officials of the medieval Islamic world still stands. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:28, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, but there would be no reason to do it. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: There is now agreement to delete the third category, but the first two remain unresolved. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03</b> ( d c̄ ) 04:16, 11 June 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:21, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Update Yesterday subcategory "Treaties of the medieval Islamic world" was Merged into Category:Medieval treaties. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:27, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Seems to me that Fayenatic, Marcocapelle and I agree, and only Al-Andalusi objects. But this objection appears to be outdated since 4 June, when Category:Treaties of the medieval Islamic world was merged under the understanding that only state and non-state actors can conclude treaties. Fayenatic's rationale here is the Next step after yesterday's nomination re Treaties, under the understanding that only state or non-state actors can have "foreign" relations and ambassadors. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:17, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Support. I was originally concerned about using the "nation" terminology for medieval states, but after a bit of looking about I'm now satisfied with referring to pretty much any social group with distinct laws and customs as a type of "nation", be it a nation-state, a micronation or some other entity accepted by a populous with a defined governance structure.  Regards --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 01:32, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Film directors from Alappuzha
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Film directors from Alappuzha district. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:58, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Film directors from Alappuzha to Category:Film directors from Kerala
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT created for just one person. As always, "occupation by city" intersections are not automatically created the moment any given intersection of those two things describes one person with a Wikipedia article, so he should just be categorized at the state level until such time as there are far more people to file here than this. For added bonus, the entry's article fails to state or source that he's "from" Alappuzha at all, meaning that the category isn't even properly verified as accurate in the first place. Bearcat (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 04:36, 11 June 2023 (UTC) Relisting comment: Currently 35 articles in category. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom's bonus. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom's bonus. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep itself Added more persons. And, according to ml article (രൂപേഷ് പോൾ) of Rupesh Paul, his birth place is Cherthala,Alappuzha district.Kaitha Poo Manam (talk) 22:23, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If kept, it should be renamed to Category:Film directors from Alappuzha district per actual content. However there is still no reason to keep because districts in Kerala are not otherwise diffused by occupation. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:17, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I think also, that's good suggestion. Already, exist 5 Categories here related with Category:Film directors from Kerala. Rename all Categories with 'district' head. Category:Film directors from Alappuzha district, Category:Film directors from Kozhikode‎ district, Category:Film directors from Ernakulam district, Category:Film directors from Thiruvananthapuram‎ district, Category:Film directors from Thrissur‎ district. Kaitha Poo Manam (talk) 10:12, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge Appreciate it being populated but we don't typically have cats at the district level, per WP:OCLOCATION. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Don't merge WP:OCLOCATION also indicates, 'a large category can split into its sub'. And, we have a lot of such sub cats here, not by the 'district name' but the 'city level'. e.g. Category:Film directors from Chennai, Category:Film directors from Bangalore, Category:Film directors from Hyderabad, India. Kaitha Poo Manam (talk) 00:02, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep - with 35 articles the rationale is no longer valid. There is a confusion over district: we have Category:People from Alappuzha and Category:People from Alappuzha district. Category:Film directors from Alappuzha is hedging its bets, being in Category:People from Alappuzha district and also . Oculi (talk) 18:22, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The 35 articles are clearly from the whole district, so, again, if kept it should at least be renamed to Category:Film directors from Alappuzha district. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:39, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename to Category:Film directors from Alappuzha district, per actual contents. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 05:45, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Horse farms in Asia
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 16:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting horse farms in asia
 * Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary by-continent level of categorization. The only subcategory Category:Horse farms in Japan is already in the fairly small parent category Category:Horse farms by country which is sufficient. Pichpich (talk) 18:02, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Thai Industrial Standards
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  11:09, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Thai Industrial Standards to Category:Standards of Thailand
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer since the target is nearly empty. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:37, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

On the other hand, I could do without the parent layer, since the sole member Thai units of measurement isn't about a regulated standard and doesn't really fit there. It was created much later, and before then the Thai Industrial Standards cat was directly parented under Standards by country. --Paul_012 (talk) 09:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 04:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Leaning keep (as category creator). I'm seeing this as a set category covering a topic notable by itself. Maybe I should get around to writing the article for the parent organisation the Thai Industrial Standards Institute, which would help make the category scope clearer. --Paul_012 (talk) 09:22, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge There are 3 articles between the 2 categories. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * To clarify my position, keep Category:Thai Industrial Standards as a clearly defined set category. Optionally delete Category:Standards of Thailand as redundant (though that category hasn't been tagged so this may require a new discussion). --Paul_012 (talk) 07:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It may be a clearly defined set, but there are only two articles and they can easily be interlinked directly. I will do that now. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:10, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Of the two redirects, one is a notable standard itself whose article is under an alternative title; the category is on the redirect per WP:RCAT. That makes three full articles plus one section covered in a broader article. I don't believe those see also links are appropriate, as the topics aren't related at all apart from their TIS status. I've reverted the additions. --Paul_012 (talk) 21:31, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep both, per Category:Standards by country. Noting that both Thai Industrial Standards Institute and TISI are both redlinks. Unless/until at least one of those links turns blue, I'm tempted to suggest deleting Category:Thai Industrial Standards (no merge). But we're talking about national standards, soooo, Weak keep. - jc37 14:36, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Australian Survivor contestants
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete (again). After this was relsited at DRV it's recieved a keep !vote from the DRV nominator and three uninvolved delete !votes, clearly indicating that the community has not found the argument for keeping convincing. (non-admin closure) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 16:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting australian survivor contestants
 * Nominator's rationale: As these people were already famous this is not WP:DEFINING and therefore nothing more than a WP:PERFCAT. -- wooden superman  12:21, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisted per consensus at Deletion review/Log/2023 May 22. I don't have an easy way to re-add all the pages that were formerly members of this category, but you can see the list at this link. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:29, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete if they're already famous, this is just another performance. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:28, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment This category has been emptied. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:40, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I have double-checked a dozen articles and can just confirm what has been said earlier: the articles in this category are about people who are famous for other reasons and this is not WP:DEFINING. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:40, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not all of the contestants on the series were famous when appearing on the show; the premise of the show is that a majority of contestants are civillians. For example, Luke Toki, Jericho Malabonga and Hayley Leake would all be seen to have this show as a WP:DEFINING role. Other contestants, such as Matt Tarrant, David Genat or Felicity Palmateer, might have been known in certain small circles, but certainly wouldn't have been known to most viewers at the time of their appearance on the show because they gained their notably on the show. On top of all of this, it should also be taken into account that former American Survivor contestants who are notable for only appearing in this franchise have also participated on this show, which would also make this a DEFINING role for them. If this cat were to be deleted, then it would mean that all other Survivor franchise contestant cats should be too. Happily888 (talk) 14:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It is very telling that Luke Toki, Jericho Malabonga and Hayley Leake do not have an article. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:07, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Per WP:SUBTOPICCAT, redirect pages are included as part of categories, especially with these articles being highly likely to be created in future. Happily888 (talk) 12:34, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * If the category exists, yes, but this category should be deleted. There is no consistent definingness. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:54, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm conceptually very open minded that WP:PERFCAT doesn't apply to reality show contestants on their initial show because that's the only reason they're notable and I've iVoted against several of WS's nominations on that basis. But, clicking through the articles that exist so far in this cat, the vast majority are already notable before the show. - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:33, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: I've restored most of the pages to the category, if that helps. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:36, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 15:09, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete per nom. Oculi (talk) 17:47, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-defining. Pichpich (talk) 18:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Medieval documents of Norway
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:28, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Documents about medieval Norway. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 05:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Medieval documents of Norway to Category:Medieval documents about Norway
 * Alt rename Category:Medieval documents of Norway to Category:Documents about medieval Norway
 * Nominator's rationale: The current name is ambiguous. Are these medieval documents... Written in Norway? Found in Norway? Owned by Norway? Preserved in Norway? Or... about Norway? I think they are about Norway. Grandparent Category:Medieval texts by region suggests it has something to do with "region/area/location", but just like with "Manuscripts by area", I think "location/area/region" is not only ambiguous, but also WP:NONDEFINING. So let's make it about Norway, Norway as the topic of these documents. (This will have consequences for the rest of the tree, but I'm taking this as a simple test case). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt rationale: Per WP:C2C parent Category:Medieval Norway, Category:Documents about medieval Norway might be an even better idea. They are about Norway in the Middle Ages. Aslak Bolt's cadastre was written in medieval Norway, but that's not really relevant. It is preserved in National Archives of Norway, but that is the "by collection" tree. Moreover, the Diplomatarium Norvegicum and Regesta Norvegica are both 19th-century publications of source documents, so strictly speaking they themselves aren't medieval and weren't "written in medieval Norway" anyway, only the texts they contain. Neither "found in" or "owned by" seems to be relevant either; medieval Norway doesn't exist anymore and can't "own" anything, and books published after 1500 can't be "found in" it anymore. So, only "Documents about medieval Norway" is really WP:DEFINING for all three items. (Sometimes you just have to figure this out to realise an entire category tree needs better names). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: Perhaps it could be renamed, but should the main category be "Medieval Norwegian literature" as a subcategory of "Norwegian literature". And how does Category:Old Norse literature fit in? It is a suibcategory of both Nordic literature and Early Germanic literature? Hugo999 (talk) 09:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "Medieval Norwegian literature" currently doesn't exist, and I'm not sure if it would really help with anything. Category:History of literature in Norway goes back no further than the 19th century (presumably because no Norwegian state existed before 1814?).
 * Category:Old Norse literature is about what language certain texts are written in, not about topic, nor about area/location/region.Because it is language-based, both Category:Medieval literature by language and Category:Early Germanic literature are proper parents. But because it includes Category:Sagas about locations outside the Nordic countries (as apty shown by Category:Saga locations, ranging from Carpathian Mountains to Vinland), I think Category:Nordic literature is WP:NONDEFINING for Old Norse literature, and is not a good parent.
 * Incidentally, I noticed that both Diplomatarium Norvegicum and Regesta Norvegica are in Category:Norwegian manuscripts, which contains pages on manuscripts in the Old Norwegian language, i.e. from the earliest fragments of the 12th century to the mid-16th century. The category descripion, in fact, argues (at surprising length) about why this category should exist separately from Category:Icelandic manuscripts because Old Norwegian is different from Old Icelandic. I guess this means we should rename it to Category:Old Norwegian manuscripts then, just to be clear that "Norwegian" refers to language and not country here. We could also merge Category:Medieval documents of Norway into it, since 2 of the 3 items are already in both, and Aslak Bolt's cadastre also qualifies for it. We could let the whole "about Norway" plan go in favour of a purely language-based category tree. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Support alt rename as simply the most accurate description. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:42, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Drama films by year
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  15:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose containerization of
 * Category:1890s drama films
 * Category:1910 drama films
 * Category:1911 drama films
 * Category:1912 drama films
 * Category:1913 drama films
 * Category:1914 drama films
 * Category:1915 drama films
 * Category:1916 drama films
 * Category:1917 drama films
 * Category:1918 drama films
 * Category:1919 drama films
 * Category:1920 drama films
 * Category:1921 drama films
 * Category:1922 drama films
 * Category:1923 drama films
 * Category:1924 drama films
 * Category:1925 drama films
 * Category:1926 drama films
 * Category:1927 drama films
 * Category:1928 drama films
 * Category:1929 drama films
 * Category:1930 drama films
 * Category:1931 drama films
 * Category:1932 drama films
 * Category:1933 drama films
 * Category:1934 drama films
 * Category:1935 drama films
 * Category:1936 drama films
 * Category:1937 drama films
 * Category:1938 drama films
 * Category:1939 drama films
 * Category:1940 drama films
 * Category:1941 drama films
 * Category:1942 drama films
 * Category:1943 drama films
 * Category:1944 drama films
 * Category:1945 drama films
 * Category:1946 drama films
 * Category:1947 drama films
 * Category:1948 drama films
 * Category:1949 drama films
 * Category:1950 drama films
 * Category:1951 drama films
 * Category:1952 drama films
 * Category:1953 drama films
 * Category:1954 drama films
 * Category:1955 drama films
 * Category:1956 drama films
 * Category:1957 drama films
 * Category:1958 drama films
 * Category:1959 drama films
 * Category:1960 drama films
 * Category:1961 drama films
 * Category:1962 drama films
 * Category:1963 drama films
 * Category:1964 drama films
 * Category:1965 drama films
 * Category:1966 drama films
 * Category:1967 drama films
 * Category:1968 drama films
 * Category:1969 drama films
 * Category:1970 drama films
 * Category:1971 drama films
 * Category:1972 drama films
 * Category:1973 drama films
 * Category:1974 drama films
 * Category:1975 drama films
 * Category:1976 drama films
 * Category:1977 drama films
 * Category:1978 drama films
 * Category:1979 drama films
 * Category:1980 drama films
 * Category:1981 drama films
 * Category:1982 drama films
 * Category:1983 drama films
 * Category:1984 drama films
 * Category:1985 drama films
 * Category:1986 drama films
 * Category:1987 drama films
 * Category:1988 drama films
 * Category:1989 drama films
 * Category:1990 drama films
 * Category:1991 drama films
 * Category:1992 drama films
 * Category:1993 drama films
 * Category:1994 drama films
 * Category:1995 drama films
 * Category:1996 drama films
 * Category:1997 drama films
 * Category:1998 drama films
 * Category:1999 drama films
 * Category:2000 drama films
 * Category:2001 drama films
 * Category:2002 drama films
 * Category:2003 drama films
 * Category:2004 drama films
 * Category:2005 drama films
 * Category:2006 drama films
 * Category:2007 drama films
 * Category:2008 drama films
 * Category:2009 drama films
 * Category:2010 drama films
 * Category:2011 drama films
 * Category:2012 drama films
 * Category:2013 drama films
 * Category:2014 drama films
 * Category:2015 drama films
 * Category:2016 drama films
 * Category:2017 drama films
 * Category:2018 drama films
 * Category:2019 drama films
 * Category:2020 drama films
 * Category:2021 drama films
 * Category:2022 drama films
 * Category:2023 drama films
 * Category:2024 drama films
 * Propose deletion of
 * Category:1900 drama films
 * Category:1901 drama films
 * Category:1902 drama films
 * Category:1903 drama films
 * Category:1905 drama films
 * Category:1906 drama films
 * Category:1907 drama films
 * Category:1908 drama films
 * Category:1909 drama films
 * Nominator's rationale: containerize, "drama" is not a real genre and it is not a differentiating characteristic since the large majority of films are drama films. With the exception of the 1900s categories, it is too early for deletion because there are many subcategories under them. This is follow-up on this earlier discussion, pinging contributors to earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:02, 12 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment - I presume that this is a first step towards deletion of all the "drama as a genre" subcats. So I'll support whatever User:Marcocapelle's doing here to get things to that resolution. I think my comments from the previous discussion also apply here. - jc37 08:15, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete all genre category intersections with the word "drama". Drama (film and television), in particular - (from the article) "The Screenwriters Taxonomy contends that film genres are fundamentally based upon a film's atmosphere, character and story, and therefore the labels "drama" and "comedy" are too broad to be considered a genre" So, in the case of films and shows, drama isn't even a genre! also from the article - "According to the Screenwriters' Taxonomy, all film descriptions should contain their type (comedy or drama) combined with one (or more) of the eleven super-genres.[2] This combination does not create a separate genre, but rather, provides a better understanding of the film. According to the taxonomy, combining the type with the genre does not create a separate genre.[2] For instance, the "Horror Drama" is simply a dramatic horror film (as opposed to a comedic horror film). "Horror Drama" is not a genre separate from the horror genre or the drama type." So all these drama-thriller combinations are not even genres!! These all need to go. Strong Delete. - jc37 01:34, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Firstly, the question of whether drama is a "genre" or not is irrelevant here, because Wikipedia does not have any rule that films can only be categorized for "genre" and not for "type". We do, for instance, categorize films for "short" status, and "independent" status, and "black-and-white" status, and "sequel" status, and "silent" status, and numerous other things that are also not "genres" — so regardless of one's position on the question of whether drama is a "genre" or a "type" of film, that has nothing to do with the legitimacy of "drama films" categories since we can and do routinely categorize films for both "genre" and "type". Secondly, the stated intention here is to eventually blow out all "drama films" categories across the board — but that will fuck up other stuff, because if "drama films" categories don't exist then there are a lot of films that can't be categorized anywhere else without breaking or undermining other principles of the category system at the same time. For instance, if doesn't exist, then where else is Life's Good supposed to go, and if  doesn't exist, then where else is Boris Without Béatrice supposed to go? They can't just go back into  or  themselves, because those are container categories that are only supposed to contain subcategories and not individual articles — so what "Indian/Canadian [genre/type] films" categories do they go in if "drama" isn't an option? Every film has to be in one or more categories of the latter form, but for a large portion of films there's no alternative. And no, the fact that Canada and India happen to both also have categories that group their films by language or year isn't a solution to this problem, because not all countries have similar categories at all — for a very large number of countries, "Country [genre] films" is the only scheme that exists at all to subcategorize films out of direct inclusion in "Country films", which means that if "Country [drama] films" doesn't exist then for a lot of drama films your only alternatives left are to either break the containerization of "Country films" or to just not categorize the film for nationality at all. If drama is a type and not a genre, then that problem is instantly solved just by moving  from  to . But since we can and do categorize films for both "genre" and "type", the question of whether drama is a "genre" or a "type" has nothing to do with whether "drama films" categories should exist or not — but it'll be a royal train wreck if they don't, because the principles of "every film must always be categorized by nationality across the board" and "nationality categories should be containers, with only subcategories and no films sitting directly in the parent category at all" cannot both be upheld at the same time if "drama films" subcategories don't exist. Bearcat (talk) 13:20, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Regarding your second point, it was a deliberate choice to not nominate the entire tree at once. For drama films by country we may need different solutions than for drama films by year. We are now discussing by year. Films by year, e.g. Category:1910 films are not container categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:33, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter whether these categories are containers or not. Your own stated intention is to eventually blow out all "drama films" categories across the board, so the fact that there are container categories that will be disrupted by your own stated intention as soon you get around to them, based on exactly the same reasoning you're using here, is relevant here regardless of whether these categories are containers or not. Bearcat (talk) 18:01, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: May require community-wide discussion about the use of the drama film label. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 01:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:08, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep I second Bearcat's comment above, the deletion of drama films would seriously disrupts our categorization scheme. But I also totally disagree with the premise, there are plenty of films whose genre can solely and only be categorised as drama (and that are indeed categorised as such), and "it is not a differentiating characteristic since the large majority of films are drama films" is a non-argument. I don't even see how this is a follow-up of the previous Category:Thriller drama films deletion, there the issue was a sub-genre which mainly matched the main genre (thrillers are almost always thriller dramas, except when specified), here the underlying assumption is that drama films do not exist as an individual genre and have to belong to other genres - which is often patently wrong and would result in leaving thousands of films without any genre categorization. Cavarrone  16:05, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Comments: In support of the prior discussion, I have found that "thriller drama" has been informally deprecated in WT:FILM discussions such as Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Archive_62 (2016) and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Archive_73 (2019). However, while I was emptying some of the "thriller drama" categories, I noticed that many of the articles did introduce the film as a "thriller drama", and I did not change that description in the lede. Marcocapelle may have noticed the same, as I think he emptied the majority of those categories.
 * The first of those WT:FILM discussions was also proposing limits on new triple-intersection categories. That would seem to give weight against the proposal to containerise, in case some of the sub-cats may be less supportable than "drama films".
 * But have "drama films" ever been deprecated by a consensus at WT:FILM? The nominator does not seem to have advertised this discussion there. IMHO this nomination should not progress without explicit support from WP:FILM. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:16, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep While I do not see "drama" as a defining genre for most films (unlike the term melodrama), I fail to see how deleting an entire category tree helps in navigation. Keeping the main category Category:Drama films but deleting its subcategories is simply absurd. Dimadick (talk) 07:00, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Containerize per nom. "Drama" is more like a super-category, and attempting to more narrowly define it tends to lead to original research.  I question the value of these categories if 50%+ of all movies are arguably a drama of some sort.  SnowFire (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Query Are they not part of an established tree structure? Do they not have potential for growth? Should there not be consistency in the application of the SmallCat exception? Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:19, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This is not a smallcat nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:34, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Kievan Rus' royalty
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 9%23Category:Kievan Rus' royalty

Category:Murdered socialists
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting murdered socialists
 * Nominator's rationale: Overcategorization for a non-defining intersection of unrelated traits. We do not have any scheme of "murdered people by political orientation" for this to be part of -- no, no , no , no , etc. -- and there's no indication of why murdered socialists would need special treatment above and beyond murdered anything-elses. Bearcat (talk) 17:34, 13 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Articles are already in an assassinated or executed category as applicable. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:27, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep, on the basis we already have Category:Murdered anarchists. As long as the contents are proved to be (a) "socialist" and (b) "murdered". Sionk (talk) 14:05, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * That is a fair point, we should be consistent. What matters, in my opinion, is assassinated politicians (for which we already have a category tree but not by ideology) and assassinated political activists (for which we probably have only one category, namely for anarchists). But just a random murder is not a defining intersection with politics. I am primarily opposing having "murdered politicians" categories here. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:45, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, C LYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 07:27, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * If not kept, merge somewhere. Possibly Category:Assassinated politicians or (by manual merger) appropriate subcats of it.  One was tortured to death in police custody: does that count as assassination?  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:51, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:04, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Manually merge all people in the category who were politicians to Category:Assassinated politicians, or create a parent Category:Murdered politicians for these people (as not all murders are assassinations, and Category:Assassinated people by occupation is a child of Category:Murder victims by occupation). We do not categorise murder victims by political opinion, only Category:Murder victims by occupation. Nom is spot-on in this matter. I would add that having this for some political opinions but not others creates a WP:NPOV problem, because it suggests that murdered fooians for whom we do have categories are more important than murdered anything-elses for which we do not, or that it is somehow "less bad" or less notable in the latter cases. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: Some people who may not qualify as 'politicians' may still qualify as (political) 'activists', and might be manually merged into Category:Assassinated activists (e.g. Kawai Yoshitora). As an analogy of a non-socialist, Darya Dugina is categorised as an 'assassinated journalist' and 'assassinated activist', but not as a 'politician', even though she is described/categorised as a 'political activist/scientist/commentator/philosopher'. Many of the murdered socialists and anarchists above may likewise fall into the Category:Assassinated activists category or something similar having to do with an occupation other than 'politician'.
 * Socialist Leon Trotsky might also be placed in Category:Assassinated Ukrainian journalists/Category:Assassinated Russian journalists.
 * Trotsky may also fit in Category:Assassinated writers (doesn't exist yet, could be a child of Category:Assassinated mass media people?). Eitaro Noro may also fit in here, the publication of his 1932 book Lecture on the history of the development of Japanese capitalism, appears to have been the reason for his arrest, torture and death in prison. The same goes for spouses Itō Noe and Ōsugi Sakae, murdered in the Amakasu Incident, apparenty because of their writings, Itō Noe in particular as editor of banned feminist magazine Bluestocking (magazine). (Both also probably qualify for Category:Assassinated activists and Category:Assassinated dissidents).
 * Some people might qualify for Category:Assassinated revolutionaries. Fayzulla Xoʻjayev probably does not: he was no longer a 'revolutionary', having been part of the Soviet leadership from 1920 to 1937. Moreover, he was 'executed' as part of the Great Purge rather than 'murdered', and probably not really for 'being a socialist', because the entire USSR was kinda socialist too. If 'socialist' were WP:DEFINING, probably most people in Category:Great Purge victims should be categorised as such (most were members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union or its affiliates). Xoʻjayev probably shouldn't be in any 'murdered' category at all. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:47, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Assassinated socialists and purge. Ideology of the assassination victim is often defining because that is often the basis for their killing. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 13:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I went through the category and found that not to be true, see my comment above. E.g. it was often because the victims published certain writings that they were killed, not just 'being a socialist'. That's more a freedom of expression / freedom of the press issue than anyone's ideology in particular. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if I agree with that. But there is one article about being sentenced to death (as Nl Leeuw mentioned earlier) and three articles about being killed by police, which do not belong in an assassinated category. The remaining three articles are already in Category:Assassinated politicians by nationality. So then this category may just as well be deleted after all. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:59, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete per Marcocapelle.<span id="Qwerfjkl:1689692869376:WikipediaFTTCLNCategories_for_discussion/Log/2023_June_29" class="FTTCmt"> — Qwerfjkl  talk  15:07, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Philosophers of Judaism
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 18%23Category:Philosophers of Judaism

Category:German chronicles
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. I'm not sure 4 different options is a good way to get consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  15:16, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:German chronicles to Category:Chronicles about Germany
 * Alt 1 proposal: rename to Category:Chronicles about the Holy Roman Empire
 * Alt 2 proposal: rename to Category:Chronicles about medieval Germany
 * Alt 3 proposal: rename to Category:Chronicles about medieval Germany; create parent Category:Chronicles about the Holy Roman Empire
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent Category:History books about Germany. This is in the Category:Works by topic tree. I've split off Category:German-language chronicles to make the distinction clear. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:57, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt 1 rationale: per Marcocapelle: that is the more often used name in medieval context. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt 2 rationale: per Category:Medieval Germany. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt 3 rationale: We could actually do both. Chronicles about medieval Fooland (if Fooland was wholly or almost wholly within the HRE during the Middle Ages, e.g. Belgium except most of Flanders, the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, about half of Poland etc.) could become a child of newly created parent Category:Chronicles about the Holy Roman Empire. We could rename Category:Latin chronicles about Austria to Category:Latin chronicles about medieval Austria etc. and re-parent them to Category:Chronicles about the Holy Roman Empire. Renaming Category:German chronicles to Category:Chronicles about medieval Germany (Alt 2 proposal) is to be preferred for procedural reasons, because Category:German chronicles is in the Category:Works about Germany tree. Category:Chronicles about the Holy Roman Empire is to be created as a new parent. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, C LYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 00:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment shouldn't this be ? It should cover the period before Bismarck, no? -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 22:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Nobody uses "the Germanies" in plural in catnames. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:15, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not conceptually opposed to an "about" categorization but that does have challenges too. For example, what about a the Annales Ceccanenses, "a chronicle of universal history from the birth of Jesus down to 1218"? It used to be "German" and is now in an "about Germany" subcategory. I guess "German" in these categories originally meant written in the area of modern Germany, so that was not be a good categorization scheme either. I realize I am not offering a solution or alternative, so I am currently not much help here. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:14, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle it's a fair point. I based this categorisation on the passage at the end: Less informative, but more interesting are some hexameters directed against the Emperor Henry VI and his Germans incorporated into the chronicle. But I suppose this is about these Germans' military campaign in Italy, and therefore more "about Italy" than "about Germany". We can remove it again if you like; I haven't yet created a Category:Latin chronicles about Italy to replace it with.
 * Otherwise, "about Germany" simply follows the established Category:Works by topic category tree. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:24, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * There are several other outliers in this category, e.g. one about Austria, one about Francia, another one with universal history. We will probably need a European parent and we may need a category for universal history as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:10, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle I'm working on all of that; suggestions are certainly appreciated. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:28, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt rename to Category:Chronicles about the Holy Roman Empire, as that is the more often used name in medieval context. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:14, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle I'm open to that, but that creates a whole number of issues. If we went that route, we should probably first create Category:History books about the Holy Roman Empire, or at least Category:Works about the Holy Roman Empire. (The only thing that comes close to it is Category:Films set in the Holy Roman Empire, but that is in the Category:Works by setting tree). Currently, there is only Category:History books about Germany, which is the current category's parent. The two "about Germany" subcats I've just created would then also have to be renamed to "about the Holy Roman Empire". And: should we then also merge Category:Latin chronicles about Austria into it, or not? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: We could also go for Category:Chronicles about medieval Germany per Category:Medieval Germany. Although you and I agree that categories such as Category:Medieval Belgium and Category:Medieval Netherlands may be somewhat anachronistic, we agreed to let them exist for now; in part out of pragmatism, in part because of the associated category trees. Similarly, we could rename Category:Latin chronicles about Austria to Category:Latin chronicles about medieval Austria, Category:Latin chronicles about Poland to Category:Latin chronicles about medieval Poland etc. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:50, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * PPS: Come to think of it, we could actually do both. Chronicles about medieval Fooland (if Fooland was wholly or almost wholly within the HRE during the Middle Ages, e.g. Belgium except most of Flanders, the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, about half of Poland etc.) could become a child of Category:Chronicles about the Holy Roman Empire. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:57, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Update Included three Alt proposals in the nomination to allow new users a better insight in the discussion so far. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Category:Belgian chroniclers was Alt Renamed (per Marcocapelle) in August 2022 to Category:Chroniclers from the Holy Roman Empire (because "Belgian" was found to be "anachronistic", and it was not possible to assign them to more specific lands such as Flanders, Liège etc.). But no re-parenting took place, and Category:Chroniclers from the Holy Roman Empire is still firmly in two branches of the Category:Belgian people nationality tree, so that's something we still need to do (I'll try and carry that out now). ✅ If we go for either Alt 1 or Alt 3, this HRE chronicle writers category will be closely linked to the HRE chronicle texts category. for your information. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:06, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, should we Merge Category:German chroniclers into Category:Chroniclers from the Holy Roman Empire? Edit: Yes, I CfM'd it. Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 3. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Top of the Pops presenters
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 16:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting top of the pops presenters
 * Nominator's rationale: Fails WP:PERFCAT: "Avoid categorizing performers by their performances" -- wooden superman  14:44, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:17, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Pichpich (talk) 18:10, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete textbook WP:PERFCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:20, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:1515 in Morocco
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Merge (non-admin closure) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 16:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:1515 in Morocco to Category:16th century in Morocco and Category:1515 in Africa
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT for just one thing, in a country that doesn't otherwise have any other year-specific categories in this century. As always, everything does not automatically need to be sifted down to the narrowest possible level of subcategorization the moment there's one article that would fit -- this would be fine if there were a lot of 1515 events to file here, but it does not aid navigation of Wikipedia to obsessively filter everything down to microcategories of one. Bearcat (talk) 13:00, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. All year categories in Morocco until and including the 19th century may be nominated too. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:19, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge This seems unlikely to have much growth potential. - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Defensive gun use
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 18%23Category:Defensive gun use

Imperial Chinese government officials
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Rename (non-admin closure) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 16:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Chen dynasty politicians‎ to Category:Chen dynasty government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Liang dynasty politicians‎ to Category:Liang dynasty government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Liu Song politicians‎ to Category:Liu Song government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Northern Qi politicians‎ to Category:Northern Qi government officials‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Northern Wei politicians‎ to Category:Northern Wei government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Northern Zhou politicians‎ to Category:Northern Zhou government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Southern Qi politicians‎ to Category:Southern Qi government officials‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Former Shu politicians‎ to Category:Former Shu government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Jin (Later Tang precursor) politicians‎ to Category:Jin (Later Tang precursor) government officials‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Jingnan politicians‎ to Category:Jingnan government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Later Han (Five Dynasties) politicians‎ to Category:Later Han (Five Dynasties) government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Later Jin (Five Dynasties) politicians‎ to Category:Later Jin (Five Dynasties) government officials‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Later Liang (Five Dynasties) politicians‎ to Category:Later Liang (Five Dynasties) government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Later Shu politicians‎ to Category:Later Shu government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Later Tang politicians‎ to Category:Later Tang government officials‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Later Zhou politicians to ‎Category:Later Zhou government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Ma Chu politicians‎ to Category:Ma Chu government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Min Kingdom politicians‎ to Category:Min Kingdom government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Qi (Li Maozhen's state) politicians‎ to Category:Qi (Li Maozhen's state) government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Southern Han politicians‎ to Category:Southern Han government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Southern Tang politicians‎ to Category:Southern Tang government officials‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Wuyue politicians‎ to Category:Wuyue government officials‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Yang Wu politicians‎ to Category:Yang Wu government officials‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Cao Wei politicians‎ to Category:Cao Wei government officials‎
 * Propose renaming Category:Eastern Wu politicians to ‎Category:Eastern Wu government officials
 * Propose renaming Category:Shu Han politicians‎ to Category:Shu Han government officials‎
 * Nominator's rationale: rename per precedent (1) and (2). These categories are even deeper in the tree, but now we have had all of them. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:24, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support by precedent. Pichpich (talk) 18:14, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Documentary films about talk show hosts
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Documentary films about television people. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 05:50, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Documentary films about talk show hosts to Category:Documentary films about television people
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT of unclear necessity. As always, everything that films could possibly be "about" does not automatically get its own dedicated category the moment there's one film about it -- there would need to be at least five or six films about talk show hosts before this was warranted. But there are only two articles here, which isn't enough. Bearcat (talk) 04:11, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Besides I think the first article should be moved to Category:Documentary films about television because it is about the history of a show, not about a particular host. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:38, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. About Évocateur: The Morton Downey Jr. Movie, I haven't seen it but reading the article, it seems like it could be caetgorized in both Category:Documentary films about television people and Category:Documentary films about television. Speaking of which, shouldn't we consider making Category:Documentary films about television people a subcategory of Category:Documentary films about television? Seems helpful for navigation. Pichpich (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes to the latter. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:47, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ - Marcocapelle (talk) 15:03, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.