Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 4

 &lt; March 3 March 5 &gt;

Category:Holidays themed professional wrestling events
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 12%23Category:Holidays themed professional wrestling events

Category:Fantastic Four (film series) drafts

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:01, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting fantastic four (film series) drafts
 * Nominator's rationale: All future Fantastic Four films will be set in the MCU, and it is unlikely any characters from the previous films will receive their own articles. As we already have Category:Marvel Cinematic Universe drafts, this category is no longer needed. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:15, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. There is no need for the category at this point. -- Zoo (talk) 22:45, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Highly unnecessary. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:16, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Lesbos

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:02, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Rulers of Lesbos to Category:Lords of Lesbos
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, the articles in this category consistently use the title "lord". Marcocapelle (talk) 21:27, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:06, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Dimadick (talk) 05:25, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename
 * Rename per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Countries and territories by language
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 12%23Category:Countries and territories by language

Category:Estonian domestic cricket competitions

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:05, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Estonian domestic cricket competitions to Category:Domestic cricket competitions and Category:Cricket in Estonia and Category:Sports competitions in Estonia


 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 21:02, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:21, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge Per nom. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:40, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Probably needs full upmerge. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of the Habsburg monarchy

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:06, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Rulers of the Habsburg monarchy to Category:Archdukes of Austria
 * Nominator's rationale: rename per actual category content, all subcategories are named "Archdukes of Austria". (Alternatively we may rename this category including its subcategories to "Monarchs of the Habsburg monarchy".) Marcocapelle (talk) 20:55, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:07, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. "Monarchs of the Habsburg monarchy" seems a bit tautological, but I suppose that if we only named it "Habsburg monarchs", some people will want to include Spanish kings and such in the cat, which isn't the intention. So the alternative is okay if the merge does not proceed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:05, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose -- Archduke of Austria was merely one of their titles: they were also Kings of Hungary and Bohemia, often also with the title Holy Roman Emperor. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:53, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong support — no matter what titles in other modern countries, that was the title in Austria. This should not be a Holy Roman Empire category, discard those parental intersections.
 * Support The proposal has no impact on other titles that the Archdukes may also have held from time to time. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:19, 8 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of the Carolingian Empire

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Rulers of the Carolingian Empire to Category:Monarchs of the Carolingian Empire
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, these are kings and emperors, i.e. monarchs. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:05, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename
 * Rename per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:20, 8 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of the Bosporan Kingdom

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename (as modified). (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:09, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Rulers of the Bosporan Kingdom to


 * Category:Kings of the Bosporan Kingdom


 * Category:Monarchs of the Bosporan Kingdom
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, the articles in the category consistently mention "king" as the title of these rulers. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:47, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:06, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment There seems to have been at least three queens regnant (Gepaepyris, Dynamis and Camasarye Philotecnus).★Trekker (talk) 11:13, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That is a good point. Then rename to Category:Monarchs of the Bosporan Kingdom instead. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:37, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Even better. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:26, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename as modified.
 * Rename as modified by nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:20, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename as modified by nom. Constantine  ✍  11:17, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Rulers by millennium

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting Category:Rulers by millennium
 * Propose deleting Category:1st-millennium BC rulers
 * Propose deleting Category:2nd-millennium BC rulers
 * Propose deleting Category:3rd-millennium BC rulers
 * Propose deleting Category:4th-millennium BC rulers
 * Propose deleting Category:1st-millennium rulers
 * Propose deleting Category:2nd-millennium rulers
 * Propose deleting Category:3rd-millennium rulers
 * Propose deleting Category:1st-millennium BC Pharaohs
 * Propose deleting Category:2nd-millennium BC Pharaohs
 * Propose deleting Category:3rd-millennium BC Pharaohs
 * Propose deleting Category:4th-millennium BC Pharaohs
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer, everything is already in Category:Rulers by century and Category:Pharaohs by century. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:35, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose This is a subcategory of people by millennium, and needs to be expanded rather than deleted. Dimadick (talk) 05:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Only in case of Category:6th-millennium BC people and Category:7th-millennium BC people people cannot be categorized by century, but those are one-article categories. I suggest (if this goes ahead) to nominate the entire tree of people by millennium. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:26, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:15, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Support -- Even in Egypt, it will not be possible to populate more than about 50 century categories. As I have often said, millennium categories serve no useful purpose.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:56, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Support as a first step. Millennium categories serve no useful purpose.
 * Oppose, useful for navigating to century categories, and between events / establishments by millennium to people. Moreover, it is being argued at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_March_6 that dating early biblical characters is uncertain, and therefore those should not be categorised by century. Well, that is all the more reason to place Category:Judges of ancient Israel in 2nd millennium BC rulers. – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:57, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename Delete per nom. Judges with unknown centuries can comfortably sit in Category:Judges of ancient Israel by themselves with a note saying to diffuse to century where known. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename to what? The nom is for deletion. Dimadick (talk) 20:40, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you mean to say "support" instead of "rename". I agree with the comment. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oops yes. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:01, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Works about sovereignty

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Works about sovereignty to Category:Sovereignty
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:16, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge currently this doesn't aid navigation and I don't think we're likely to get notable non-books (films, blogs, etc.) on sovereignty. - RevelationDirect (talk) 20:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:2000 FINA World Open Water Swimming Championships

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:14, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting 2000 fina world open water swimming championships
 * Propose deleting 2008 fina world open water swimming championships
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. Category contains on 1 entry. User:Namiba 19:04, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't it be merged to some parent categories? Shouldn't the 2008 sibling be nominated too? Marcocapelle (talk) 19:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have added the 2008 edition. Both are already in the appropriate subcategories so merging isn't necessary.--User:Namiba 23:23, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Then delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:28, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:17, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Baseball players of Italian descent

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:14, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Baseball players of Italian descent to Category:Sportspeople of Italian descent
 * Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection. Either people in this category are Italian themselves, in which case they belong in (which is not exclusive of people having held several citizenships during their lifetime, simultaneously or not), or the place where their ancestors lived probably has little thing to do with the fact that they played baseball of all sports. There is no other category by descent for baseball players, or any other sport. Place Clichy (talk) 18:28, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:20, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:55, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment -- We have 7 articles, which is enough to allow it to be kept. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge — WP:OCTRIVIA WP:OCEGRS. (WP:SMALLCAT should be 10 or 20, but is not the reason this is being merged.)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Countries by language family

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:15, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting countries by language family
 * Propose deleting former slavic countries
 * Propose deleting germanic countries and territories
 * Propose deleting category
 * Propose deleting category
 * Propose deleting turkic states
 * Propose deleting historical turkic states
 * Propose deleting turkic rump states
 * Propose deleting iranian countries and territories
 * Propose deleting iranian-speaking countries and territories
 * Propose deleting bodic countries and territories
 * Propose deleting boro–garo countries and territories
 * Propose deleting kuki-chin–naga countries and territories
 * Propose deleting berber-speaking countries and territories
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:G4: recent (18 February 2023) re-creation of previously deleted category, see Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8 ("the 2020-01-8 CfD") and Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 17 ("the 2020-01-17 CfD"). It is evident that some categories just escaped the attention of the previous CfDs. Consequently, Category:Former Slavic countries must also be deleted, because Category:Slavic countries and territories was deleted in the same 2020-01-08 CfD, and if there is no such thing as "Slavic countries", then there is no such thing as "former Slavic countries". Category:Former Slavic countries should already have been deleted during the 2020-01-08 CfD, but instead, only its deleted parent Category:Slavic countries and territories was removed. Update: This leaves me no choice but to nominate the other subcategories as well. Category:Germanic countries and territories was previously nominated for deletion, resulting in no consensus (Categories for discussion/Log/2019 March 19); for some weird reason, it was not included in the 2020-01-08 CfD, even though in its own 2019-03-19 CfD some people tried to defend the category by invoking Category:Romance countries and territories, Category:Slavic countries and territories, Category:Turkic countries and territories and others that were later deleted in the 2020-01-08 CfD and the 2020-01-17 CfD. The fact that the 2020-01-17 CfD already deleted Category:Turkic countries and territories‎ leaves little reason for Category:Turkic states, Category:Historical Turkic states and Category:Turkic rump states to exist (just like "Slavic countries" and "former Slavic countries"). Same goes for Category:Germanic empires and Category:Germanic kingdoms. As for Category:Iranian countries and territories, both Category:Indo-Iranian countries and territories‎ and Category:Indo-Iranian-speaking countries and territories were already deleted in these two CfDs.


 * The following cats are children of Category:Countries and territories by language (a legitimate container cat), in which they are pretending to be a "language", but are in fact a language family:
 * Category:Iranian-speaking countries and territories is just the same category as Category:Iranian countries and territories under another name; the Iranian languages are a language family, not a single language, so we end up with the same inappropriate categorisation of countries by language family.
 * Category:Bodic countries and territories; the Bodic or Bodish languages are a proposed language family.
 * Category:Boro–Garo countries and territories; Bodo–Garo languages are a language family.
 * Category:Kuki-Chin–Naga countries and territories; Kuki-Chin–Naga languages are a language family.
 * Category:Berber-speaking countries and territories; the Berber languages are a language family.
 * Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:48, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete all. Some editors seem to confuse, in good faith, language family and ethnicity. In which place would an American, an Austrian, a Dutch and a Norwegian gather and say "hey, we all speak Germanic-family languages, we're all Germanic"? (Germanic may be replaced by Turkic, Iranic, Italic etc.) This notion also confuses Ancient cultures, which are often defined by ethnic or linguistic traces which can be all that's available in archaeological data, with modern nations that are, very often, pluriethnic. Place Clichy (talk) 18:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hah, well if I were on holiday 15 years ago and that situation happened, I might have made such a statement; and then that American, Austrian and Norwegian would look at me funny. xD Seriously though, I agree with what you say; all these things are pretty WP:NONDEFINING. But I don't think we need to redo this discussion, because it has already been had; we have just missed several categories during previous CfDs. I also still keep finding several cats that have so far escaped our attention, and am adding them to this list. It's pretty difficult to track all these down. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:09, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:57, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep but purge content -- Categorising countries by language group seems legitimate to me. However English is not purely a Germanic language, but a diglot between a Germanic language (Old English) and Romance languages (French/Latin).  America (ie USA) should similarly be eliminated.  Germanic kingdoms and empires need merging; also all the Turkic ones and (separately) Iranic.  The fact that this refers to a language group can be explained in headnotes.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:07, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What you're suggesting seems very WP:ARBITRARYCAT and WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. Besides, Category:Romance countries and territories and Category:Turkic countries and territories were already deletes 3 years ago as WP:NONDEFINING; I don't think such arguments hold much merit anymore. The only proper "purge" seems to delete all similar ill-defined categories, which is exactly what I'm proposing. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 03:08, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete all WP:G4 — and Peter, I'm nae bloody Sassenach.
 * Delete all and Peter, I'm nae bloody Sassenach either. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:04, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Winners in the Survivor franchise
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 12%23Category:Winners in the Survivor franchise

Category:Fictional Silver Star recipients

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:17, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting fictional silver star recipients
 * Nominator's rationale: As with the Bronze Star, not worth a category. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:15, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:NONDEF. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete While this award is hard to get in real life, it's easy for authors to use it as a throw-away line when they introduce a character so you know they're a badass, and then never mention it again in the plot. - RevelationDirect (talk) 20:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose No rationale given of why this is an unworthy category. Since when was "worth" a criterion? Dimadick (talk) 05:29, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Worth is not a criterion indeed, but definingness is. WP:OR is also a criterion: "Listed below are the medals and service awards displayed on Miyagi's Staff Sergeant's uniform in the first film." Marcocapelle (talk) 08:36, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 01:27, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Surely Listify and delete as we normally do for award categories. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete without listifying — these are fictional, there's no need to compile a list of them by many authors across a multitude of fictional parallel universes. Somebody has been reading too many comic books.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional Bronze Star Medal recipients

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:17, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting fictional bronze star medal recipients
 * Nominator's rationale: Medal of Honor or Victoria Cross, sure maybe, but the Bronze Star is too far down the line to merit a category. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:13, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:NONDEF. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete While this award is hard to get in real life, it's easy for authors to use it as a throw-away line when they introduce a character so you know they're a badass, and then never mention it again in the plot. - RevelationDirect (talk) 20:54, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose No rationale given of why this is an unworthy category. Since when was "worth" a criterion? Dimadick (talk) 05:30, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * For the relevant editing guidelines, see WP:NONDEFINING, especially the sections on WP:OCAWARD and WP:TRIVIALCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 14:23, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 01:25, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Surely Listify and delete as we normally do for award categories. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete without listifying — these are fictional, there's no need to compile a list of them by many authors across a multitude of fictional parallel universes. Somebody has been reading too many comic books.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Western Yan rulers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename & upmerge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:18, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Western Yan rulers to Category:Western Yan monarchs
 * Propose upmerge Category:Western Yan emperors to Category:Western Yan monarchs
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, as discussed previously it is uncertain whether "wang" translates as king or prince, but in any case Western Yan was a monarchy. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:20, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:50, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Upmerge Category:Western Yan emperors and rename. There is no real difference between the people that declared themselves emperor and the people that didn't. Chinese Wikipedia only has one category for Western Yan monarchs. Mucube (talk • contribs) 19:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename and upmerge - nomination updated.
 * (as nom) I have no objection to the merger of the subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:05, 5 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tuyuhun rulers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:19, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Tuyuhun rulers to Category:Tuyuhun monarchs
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, the articles mention both king and khan, but in any case Tuyuhun was a monarchy. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:13, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename
 * Support per nom Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:06, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Türgesh rulers
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:19, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Türgesh rulers to Category:Türgesh khagans
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, the articles in the category consistently refer to the title as "khagan". Marcocapelle (talk) 11:07, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:52, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom Constantine  ✍  20:18, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename
 * Support per nom Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:06, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Toungoo
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 12%23Category:Rulers of Toungoo

Category:Rulers of Sukhothai
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:21, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Rulers of Sukhothai to Category:Kings of Sukhothai
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, per article title Sukhothai Kingdom. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: The kingdom terminology is a product of traditional historiography developed during the early 20th century, and has been questioned by later scholars; e.g., Chris Baker and Pasuk Phongpaichit described its political structure as a confederation of city-states and referred to its early rulers as chieftains. That said, the majority of sources do refer to the majority of its rulers as kings, so renaming wouldn't be inappropriate (though I'm not sure entirely necessary). --Paul_012 (talk) 07:01, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename
 * Support per nom Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sumerian rulers
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 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:21, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Sumerian rulers to Category:Sumerian kings
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, for consistency with its subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:56, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:01, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename
 * Support per nom Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Chaghaniyan
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 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:22, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Rulers of Chaghaniyan to Category:Monarchs of Chaghaniyan
 * Nominator's rationale: rename per article title Principality of Chaghaniyan. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:49, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename per inconsistent terminology, and etymology (discussed below), not per article title Principality of Chaghaniyan. I think Principality of Chaghaniyan is a WP:REDUNDANTFORK of Chaghaniyan, and should be merged back into the latter. If the "principality" was a monarchy that existed "5th-10th century CE", as the infobox claims, it spans the entire existence of Chaghaniyan as a region, and only the section "Muhtajid rule and aftermath" was omitted from the fork for no apparent reason.
 * In any case, the term 'principality' seems strange, as the head of state isn't called "prince" anywhere; the article speaks of 'king', 'queen', and 'lord'. As we agreed previously, whenever there is difficulty in translating a title and no consistency in literature, "monarch" would be the best default option. There are also some etymological reasons for picking "monarch". Persian Wikipedia gives the title چغان خدا (Chaghan Khudah on English Wikipedia); the latter word en:wikt:خدا (xodâ) can mean [1] God, god [2] lord [3] patron [4] chief [5] master [6] owner. In its archaic Middle Persian form en:wikt:خدای (xwdây, Xvaday) it simply means "God"/"god". According to en:wikt:god, there is no Proto-Indo-European connection between the English word "god", going back to a verb meaning "to invoke", and these Iranian/Persian words; the latter are reconstructed as en:wikt:Reconstruction:Proto-Iranian/hwatā́wā, from "self" + "power/strength", meaning [1] lord, sovereign, king [2] god. I suppose this is the Persian equivalent of "autocrat" (self-strength/power) and comes very close to the literal meaning of "monarch" (alone-reign).
 * I was also curious whether چغان (cheghan) might just be a Persianised form of the Turkic word khagan, but no; that is en:wikt:خاقان (xâqân), and it certainly wouldn't explain the longer Middle Persian form (چَگینیگان Čagīnīgān). The etymology of this word is not easy; it doesn't have to be derived from khagan, and it's probably just a toponym. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rouran rulers
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 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:22, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Rouran rulers to Category:Khagans of the Rouran
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, per article title Rouran Khaganate, and this is the title that the articles in the category consistently mention. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:44, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:04, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Rouran khagans per William (below). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Rouran khagans — WP:C2D and match other khagans in parent Category:Khans.
 * Rename to Category:Rouran khagans per William. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * (as nom) I do not object to Category:Rouran khagans. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:48, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Osroene
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 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:22, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Rulers of Osroene to Category:Kings of Osroene
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, the articles in the category consistently mention "king" as the title. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:08, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename
 * Rename per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Cham rulers
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 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:22, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Cham rulers to Category:Kings of Champa
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, per main article King of Champa. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Speedy rename per the criterion. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:18, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename WP:C2D
 * Rename per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Estonian catch wrestlers
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Catch wrestlers. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:23, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Estonian catch wrestlers to Category:Estonian wrestlers and Category:Catch wrestlers
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 09:55, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Single merge to Category:Catch wrestlers because the article is already in Category:Estonian professional wrestlers. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Single Merge for Now per Marcocapelle. No objection to recreation if/when 5+ articles ever get created. - RevelationDirect (talk) 20:55, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Sennar
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 12%23Category:Rulers of Sennar

Category:Swedish Army brigadier generals
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:24, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Swedish Army brigadier generals to Category:Swedish Army generals and Category:Brigadier generals
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 09:25, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:35, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:East Slavic literature
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 12%23Category:East Slavic literature

Category:Legendary rulers
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename & reparent. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:27, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Legendary rulers to Category:Legendary monarchs
 * Nominator's rationale: rename and re-parent to Category:Monarchs per actual content of the category. There aren't any notable legendary presidents or legendary prime ministers. Marcocapelle (talk) 00:02, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename and re-parent per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename and re-parent
 * Question: What do we do with its children Category:Mythological kings, Category:Mythological queens, and Category:Mythological royalty? It seems almost impossible to distinguish between "legendary" and "mythological", and titles are sometimes also inconsistent. Most "kings" seem to be described as kings, except Last Roman Emperor, some are said to be "monarchs" (Category:Mythological Indian monarchs and List of legendary monarchs of Ethiopia), there are some that I would primarily describe as gods such as Jupiter (mythology), and some subcats and items are said to be "legendary" rather than "mythological": List of legendary kings of Britain, List of legendary monarchs of Ethiopia (rather than "kings"), Legendary kings of Scotland. Then there is the subcat Category:Kings in Norse mythology and legends (with Mythological kings of Denmark‎ (1 C, 35 P) Mythological kings of Sweden‎ (1 C, 31 P) Semi-legendary kings of Sweden‎ (2 C, 36 P)). The Category:Mythological royalty also includes both "mythological" and "legendary" subcats. The Category:Mythological queens all seem to be mythological, although I doubt we can label characters such as The Mistress of the Copper Mountain and the Lady of the Lake "queens". Not just because strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government, but also because she is part of a tradition known as the Arthurian legend, with King Arthur both cast as "legendary" and "mythological". For her part, the Mistress of the Copper Mountain is sometimes depicted with a diadem or crown and occasionally called a "queen", but more often a goddess, fairy, or something like the Slavic pagan equivalent of a Roman Catholic patron saint, with miners as her protégés.
 * Perhaps all this requires a new, separate nomination? It doesn't really challenge the proposition of renaming from "rulers" to "monarchs", but it might be helpful to consider changing "legendary" to "legendary and mythological", or to reformulate it as "Monarchs in mythology/myths and legends" per Category:Kings in Norse mythology and legends. Because all of its subcats seem to suffer the same problem of distinguishing between legendary and mythological. I do think it's helpful to have gendered categories for kings and queens, and items which don't qualify for the given dynastic title ("king, queen" etc.) can be moved around or removed, that may not require a name change. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:56, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It probably requires a different discussion. As far as I am aware of, the word "mythological" is more often associated with (extinct) religions, while "legendary" is used mostly in entirely non-religious context. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:27, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:52, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Not really. We have articles on Jewish mythology, Christian mythology, and Islamic mythology. The main article on myth defines it as containing non-human characters, "such as gods, demigods, and other supernatural figures." The main article on legend describes as depicting "human actions" which are perceived to take place " in human history". Dimadick (talk) 20:51, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we are saying the same. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think Dimadick is saying something else, namely: myths = stories involving non-human characters, legends = stories involving human characters. Your understanding is: myths = stories from (extinct) religions, legends = non-religious stories. My own understanding is: myths = stories that aren't true and almost nobody believes in (anymore), legends = stories that are dubious, containing a mix of fact and fiction, and are believed by some, but rejected by others. So our understanding of what these terms means is actually rather different. The common element between all of them, however, is that legends are generally a bit more credible, while myths are seen as having no legitimacy (anymore), or never had it in the first place. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 03:07, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree with Marcocapelle, this should be a later discussion after closing. Such impatience. Thank goodness we don't rely on personal understanding. There are professionals who develop these concepts. We have well referenced articles on Myth and Legend. Categories will follow. Mistakes will be rectified.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.