Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 18

 &lt; November 17 November 19 &gt;

Category:Smartglasses in fiction

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Fiction about augmented reality. (non-admin closure) House Blaster talk 20:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Smartglasses in fiction to Category:Fiction about augmented reality
 * Nominator's rationale: The category only has 4 members despite being made in 2015, evidence that it's not very popular/most people don't look for it and that it has a significant WP:OVERLAP with its parent category. I believe that merging is the optimal option to avoid clutter. If not merged, I suggest moving to Category:Fiction about smartglasses, but I am not sure such a specific category's required. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:55, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Mason (talk) 18:28, 19 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Palauan people by occupation and century

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Palauan people by century. (non-admin closure) House Blaster talk 20:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Palauan people by occupation and century to Category:Palauan people by century
 * Nominator's rationale: Only 1 category in it. upmerge for now. it isn't helpful for navigation with only one category Mason (talk) 21:27, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:57, 19 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sin Chaeho

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Shin Chae-ho. (non-admin closure) House Blaster talk 20:13, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Sin Chaeho to Category:Shin Chae-ho
 * Nominator's rationale: Per the recent move discussion, the common name is "Shin Chae-ho". The move to "Sin Chaeho" was done without explanation or discussion and should be reverted. Grnrchst (talk) 17:28, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename toobigtokale (talk) 18:08, 20 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename, this could have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:31, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


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Category:Arab world articles needing infoboxes

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) House Blaster talk 20:13, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting arab world articles needing infoboxes
 * Nominator's rationale: Empty category that doesn't appear to be populated by any specific template. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:22, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Mason (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
 * Note: Undeleted as category is required by Template:WikiProject Arab world. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:00, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians who listen to Perfume

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) House Blaster </b>talk 20:13, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting wikipedians who listen to perfume
 * Nominator's rationale: Per Categories for discussion/Log/2021 November 24 * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 16:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per precedent. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:34, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Mason (talk) 01:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians who play Minecraft
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 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) <b style="font-family:Courier New;">House Blaster </b>talk 20:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting wikipedians who play minecraft
 * Nominator's rationale: This manages to just barely squeak by G4 (Category:Wikipedians who like Minecraft was previously deleted at CfD), but is still useless per past precedent at WP:UCFD/I. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 15:58, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete, G4 still applies. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:35, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Mason (talk) 01:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fiction about otherworld
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 30%23Category:Fiction about otherworld

Category:Cultural depictions of male royals
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: dual merge to Category:Cultural depictions of royal people and Category:Cultural depictions of noblemen. (non-admin closure) <b style="font-family:Courier New;">House Blaster </b>talk 20:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Cultural depictions of male royals to Category:Cultural depictions of royal people and Category:Cultural depictions of noblemen
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories and per WP:OCEGRS. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Mason (talk) 01:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional characters incorrectly presumed dead
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 * The result of the discussion was: keep. I find the Keep rationale to be quite convincing. (non-admin closure) Seawolf35 <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">T--C 20:27, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting fictional characters incorrectly presumed dead
 * Nominator's rationale: Similar to "fictional resurrected characters", this is not a defining trait of a character. We already have Category:Fictional undead for people who were irrevocably changed by being dead, but a character may simply have been thought to be dead for years and show up just like normal. This is a story element, not a character trait. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:22, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete, it is not trivial for the storylines, but it is trivial to the articles about the characters. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep This IS a defining trait of a character as it massively impacts their development and the development of the show. If you look at characters such as Den Watts, Sherlock Holmes and Kathy Beale, you can see the development of the producers in reviving the characters and the audience's reaction and reception to it. It is not trivial, it is not just a random fact included in the article, it is a big piece of casting, development and sometimes reception information. If you look at Kathy's article you can see that it was influenced by a real life case. If you go to Cindy Beale's article, you can see how her return after being killed off 25 years later gathered substantial reception. I could go on but my point is that it is not just a trivial mention for many of the articles. DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 13:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As stated by Marcocapelle, that is a defining aspect of the storyline or episode - it would potentially go in Category:Television series about witness protection or Category:Television episodes about witness protection, since it's not technically a resurrection. It would not be defining for the character in the slightest, though there could be an argument for creating a category for characters who assumed a new identity. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 14:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per Danilo. AHI-3000 (talk) 01:42, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep I believe this is fairly defining for a character, and per Danilo's argument to keep. – Meena • 17:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Romans
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge/delete as nominated. (non-admin closure) <b style="font-family:Courier New;">House Blaster </b>talk 01:24, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose downmerging Category:Romans to Category:Ancient Roman people
 * Propose downmerging Category:Roman women to Category:Ancient Roman women
 * Propose deleting Category:Cultural depictions of Roman people
 * Propose deleting Category:Cultural depictions of Roman women
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, overlapping topics, it is all about ancient Romans. Downmerge should be implemented manually, the bot does not automatically move the parenting. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:16, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Mason (talk) 18:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment Byzantine women were also Roman women.★Trekker (talk) 18:07, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 4th- and 5th-century Byzantine people categories are still part of the ancient Romans tree and thereafter the Byzantine Empire was an empire in its own right. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Not in reality, they always considered themselves Romans and its only because of later Western historiography that the distinction has been forced.★Trekker (talk) 12:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok yeah that is how historiography developed. Self-identification isn't always decisive. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Generally, I defer to self identity but Translatio imperii was also claimed broadly including by the Holy Roman Emperors and Mussolini. "Roman" should be used in ways that readers expect so it aids navigation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 19:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support (Leaving Redirects) Moving overlapping categories to clearer naming. (Leaving redirects I think would be helpful for HotCat though.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 19:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional educational institutions
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Fiction about education. (non-admin closure) <b style="font-family:Courier New;">House Blaster </b>talk 01:22, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Fictional educational institutions to Category:Fictional schools
 * Nominator's rationale: Appears to be something of a WP:OVERLAPCAT by the looks of it. There's not really much reason anything that may not be a "school" cannot just go into Category:Fictional organizations. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support merger, this category seems totally redundant. AHI-3000 (talk) 01:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Alt merge, upmerge to Category:Fiction about education, redundant category layer with only two subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That works as well. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support either upmerge or reverse merge as educational institutions is broader than schools Mason (talk) 18:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Black people in literature
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 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) <b style="font-family:Courier New;">House Blaster </b>talk 20:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting black people in literature
 * Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:ETHNICRACECAT, we do not categorize people by skin color. The articles are already in Category:Fictional African people and Category:Fictional African-American people as appropriate. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 16:02, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 23:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Development theory
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Development economics. signed,Rosguill talk 00:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Development theory to Category:Development economics
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, overlapping topics. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Television series by JTBC Studios
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 5%23Category:Television series by JTBC Studios

Category:Albums arranged by Billy Blyers
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Albums arranged by Billy Byers. (non-admin closure) <b style="font-family:Courier New;">House Blaster </b>talk 20:15, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Albums arranged by Billy Blyers to Category:Albums arranged by Billy Byers
 * Nominator's rationale: As can be seen in the credits of both Basie Land and Song for My Daughter, "Blyers" appears to be a typo of "Byers". QuietHere (talk &#124; contributions) 08:34, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Speedy Merge Per WP:C2A, typographic and spelling fixes. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Non-Austrian military personnel in Austrian armies
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 30%23Category:Non-Austrian military personnel in Austrian armies

Category:Roman Empire hymnwriters
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 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) <b style="font-family:Courier New;">House Blaster </b>talk 20:15, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Roman Empire hymnwriters to Category:Ancient Roman hymnwriters
 * Nominator's rationale: small category, non-defining category. that's intersecting political regime and type of writing. I think we should rename it (and broaden the scope) or upmerge to People from the Roman Empire and Hymnwriters ) Mason (talk) 01:37, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Just delete, merging to parent categories is not needed because the only article is already in Category:4th-century Roman poets and Category:Christian hymnwriters. If not deleted, rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Equally fine with deleting. Mason (talk) 18:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Politicians' deaths due to animal attacks
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Deaths due to animal attacks. (non-admin closure) <b style="font-family:Courier New;">House Blaster </b>talk 01:20, 4 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Politicians' deaths due to animal attacks to Category:Deaths due to animal attacks
 * Nominator's rationale: manually merge back, as a trivial intersection. Some articles are already in a subcategory by type of animal so an automated merge will nor work. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It is a cause of death of politicians. How is it trivial if it is one of the reasons a politician dies, which is the nature of the parent Category:Politicians by cause of death? Makes no sense to me you make this nomination. Sincerely, Thinker78  (talk) 06:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Close contested by at User_talk:LaundryPizza03. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 00:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Not every intersection is notable. Unless we believe that the animals knew the occupation of their victims, this should be removed.--User:Namiba 13:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Not a notable intersection Mason (talk) 14:07, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment. I think the topic of deaths by animal attacks is notable. It is regularly featured in the news worldwide. Let alone when something like that happens to a politician (a rare but otherwise certainly notable event). Also, it is one of the causes of death of politicians. Maybe rare but given that it has several entries and as for the previously stated reason, I think it should be included. Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 19:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The topic itself is notable, but the intersection with occupation isn't. Mason (talk) 20:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge as random intersection. Pichpich (talk) 19:28, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I would understand your argument if it was like an isolated category but it is a politician cause of death, among other politicians cause of death in the eponymous category. Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 22:17, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Politicians don't have to be diffused by any random cause of death, only by deaths that are related to their occupation. Marcocapelle (talk) 23:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that is your opinion not a rule, which I respect but don't agree with, due to the stated reasons above. Although I recognize that based on opinions consensus decisions are reached. I would rather this category be preserved. Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 05:32, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It's more than an opinion, it's a very core tenant of categorization. Defining Mason (talk) 05:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Per your link, "Not everything a celebrity does after becoming famous warrants categorization". I think dying in a certain way is certainly something that warrants categorization if there are a number of minimum entries. It is one of the most crucial events in a person's life. Thinker78  (talk) 22:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * "Only by deaths that are related to their occupation" I think your comment doesn't apply to [Category:Politicians' deaths due to animal attacks] but rather to Category:Line of duty deaths‎, which is a category I did not use. Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 22:42, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think this is notable since sudden deaths of politicians have major consequences. Might be good to merge into accidental deaths of politicians but i don’t think animal attacks fit as accidents Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Immanuelle There is also a discussion about accidental deaths of politicians (check Politicians killed in duels in the See also). Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 00:33, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Merge per above. As Namiba said above, "Unless we believe that the animals knew the occupation of their victims, this should be removed." I agree that if these were politically-motivated assassinations then the victim's occupation would be relevant, but in these cases the deaths are completely incidental. Perhaps fitting that a pointless intersection gets a pointless procedural unclose, but we can carry on now. QuietHere (talk &#124; contributions) 08:42, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you able to close @QuietHere? I don't know who isn't involved in at least one of Thinker78's category conversations like this. Mason (talk) 18:12, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't object closers who were involved in past discussions in which I participated, only in the directly related discussions, as pointed out in my challenge. Thinker78  (talk) 23:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What do you expect to happen here? You've not addressed anyone's concerns about the intersection not being defining. Mason (talk) 01:12, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have replied plenty of times, no idea why in the world are you saying this. Can you quote someone's question in this thread that I did not address? Thinker78  (talk) 02:10, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As I stated: "[y]ou've not addressed anyone's concerns about the intersection not being defining". People have pointed out the same issue about how this intersection is not defining. I have not seen you make an argument for why the intersection is defining. You've pointed out repeatedly that politicians are important, therefore their deaths are important, but that's not the issue. This issue that folks keep bringing up is that the intersection between the nature of the death and the occupation isn't notable. Why does it matter that animals killed a politician? Mason (talk) 01:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per above. The occupation of someone killed by an animal is irrelevant. Perspicax (talk) 23:14, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Not irrelevant. Pretty much any death by an animal attack is notable, I would say specially so that of a politician.
 * If then animal deaths are notable and a topic of concern of people in general, certainly this opens up to the question of animal deaths by occupation. Mail carriers? Police? Soldiers? Politicians? This category helps with the navigation to provide that answer. Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 00:27, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The previous discussion has now been closed as delete. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:54, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The previous discussion has now been closed as delete. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:54, 3 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:14th-century painting stubs
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Painting stubs. – Fayenatic  L ondon 15:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting 14th-century painting stubs
 * Nominator's rationale: Stub category with under 50 stubs, upmerge to Andumé  (talk) 00:00, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:41, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.