Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25

 &lt; September 24 September 26 &gt;

Category:Jewish sportswomen

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Jewish sportspeople. There was no consensus on whether "Jew" + "sportsperson" satisfies WP:EGRS, but those who didn't object often said that we don't need to subdivide further by gender. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 18:20, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting jewish sportswomen
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:EGRS/I, trivial intersections like should not be created. In this case, the intersection of religion, occupation, and gender is not defining. Edward-Woodrow  •  talk  20:05, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep. The category is acceptable per WP:EGRS/E because Jewish people are ethnoreligious and, as such, cannot be classified as religious in the same sense as an Anglican or a Roman Catholic. I cannot agree that the category is non-defining because, clearly, its members are female, known for their sporting prowess and are Jewish; and they are defined by those aspects. PearlyGigs (talk) 23:46, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've added some points that have arisen in the other category discussions concerning Jewish people. PearlyGigs (talk) 15:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * :* It is irrelevant that Jews are ethnoreligious. WP:OCEGRS refers both to ethnicity and religion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:02, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep per above, this should be discussed broadly, at the level of parent and subparent categories. Brandmeistertalk  09:23, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Close this discussion together with the discussion below. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Note. There are currently five related discussions about Jewish people which should be viewed collectively as the points raised are common to all – please see each of Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_September_26; Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25; Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25; Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25; and Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25. Thanks. PearlyGigs (talk) 10:28, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * They should not all be viewed "collectively", as every occupation or sport should be discussed for its own merits. The generic "sports" categories should probably be viewed collectively though. Place Clichy (talk) 16:25, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * UpMerge to Category:Jewish sportspeople. I'd like to hear others' thoughts, but this seems to me to fall afoul of WP:FINALRUNG. - jc37 00:39, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete as a trivial intersection per WP:OCEGRS. If someone played in a specifically Jewish league or competition, such as the Maccabiah Games, then their article should be categorized in relation to this league or competition. Otherwise, sportspeople who just happen to be Jewish but play in generic leagues or competitions run or jump just as well as other competitors, I do not see any specificity there. Place Clichy (talk) 16:25, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Upmerge to Category:Jewish sportspeople. I'm unclear that we need a triple intersection category here.--Mike Selinker (talk) 17:17, 2 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Jewish sportsmen

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Jewish sportspeople. There was no consensus on whether "Jew" + "sportsperson" satisfies WP:EGRS, but those who didn't object often said that we don't need to subdivide further by gender. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 18:20, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting jewish sportsmen
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:EGRS/I, trivial intersections like should not be created. In this case, the intersection of religion, occupation, and gender is not defining. Edward-Woodrow  •  talk  20:05, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep. Same rationale as for sportswomen above. The category is acceptable per WP:EGRS/E because Jewish people are ethnoreligious and, as such, cannot be classified as religious in the same sense as an Anglican or a Roman Catholic. PearlyGigs (talk) 23:48, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've added some points that have arisen in the other category discussions concerning Jewish people. PearlyGigs (talk) 15:36, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * As I have noted in other discussions, this is still an EGRS/I violation, as that section includes ethnic groups. Edward-Woodrow  •  talk  22:12, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've noted in another nomination a discrepancy with established practice, particularly Category:People by ethnicity and occupation. Brandmeistertalk  22:20, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep per above, due to parent Category:Jews by occupation and subparent Category:Jewish sportspeople, this should be discussed broadly. Specifically, Category:Jewish sportspeople had three deletion discussions, none reached consensus to delete. Brandmeistertalk  09:26, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, entirely trivial intersection between ethnicity and this occupation. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:37, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Note. There are currently five related discussions about Jewish people which should be viewed collectively as the points raised are common to all – please see each of Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_September_26; Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25; Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25; Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25; and Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25. Thanks. PearlyGigs (talk) 10:28, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * UpMerge to Category:Jewish sportspeople. I'd like to hear others' thoughts, but this seems to me to fall afoul of WP:FINALRUNG. - jc37 00:39, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete as a trivial intersection per WP:OCEGRS. If someone played in a specifically Jewish league or competition, such as the Maccabiah Games, then their article should be categorized in relation to this league or competition. Otherwise, sportspeople who just happen to be Jewish but play in generic leagues or competitions run or jump just as well as other competitors, I do not see any specificity there. Place Clichy (talk) 16:26, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Upmerge to Category:Jewish sportspeople. I'm unclear that we need a triple intersection category here.--Mike Selinker (talk) 17:17, 2 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Jewish athletes (track and field)

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 19:09, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting:


 * jewish athletes (track and field)
 * jewish baseball players
 * category
 * jewish boxers
 * jewish cricketers
 * jewish fencers
 * jewish footballers
 * Nominator's rationale: per WP:EGRS/I, trivial intersections like this, between religion and occupation, shouldn't be created. This is unnecessary overcategorization. (I am nominating subcategories of Category:Jewish sportspeople in blocks so as reduce chances of a WP:TRAINWRECK. Also, 30-odd categories are a pain to nominate manually all in quick succession ) Edward-Woodrow  •  talk  19:54, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * In fact EGRS clearly states: These categories are in clear contravention of existing guidelines. The intersection here is not defining. Articles should be categorized under Jewish people and (whatever their profession is).  Edward-Woodrow  •  talk  11:58, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The key point you have missed is that Jews are ethnoreligious and, as such, a Jewish person cannot be classified as religious in the same sense as an Anglican or a Roman Catholic. Further, while you are using WP:EGRS/I to justify your case, you have not mentioned WP:EGRS/E which considers ethnicity and says: Ethnic groups are commonly used when categorising people; however, race is not. It goes on to give as an example: We do have Category:Jewish musicians, but we should not have Category:Semitic musicians. That is because Jews are an ethnic group but Semites are a race which includes Arabs as well as Jews. PearlyGigs (talk) 15:39, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, ethncity still isn't relevant to they way these people perform in sports. Whether we're discussing a religious group, or an ethnic group, or an ethnoreligious group, it is still overcategorization and still an EGRS/I issue. That guideline clearly and straightforwardly discourages the creation and existence of these categories: it says (emphasis mine):   Edward-Woodrow  •  talk  20:03, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep. This is a long-running subset of a massive categorization scheme in Category:Jews by occupation. If you want to nominate that, then there's a basis for discussion. But not a far-down set of subcategories.--Mike Selinker (talk) 22:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * That's the WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. Do you have any argument specific to the presence of Jews in track and field? Place Clichy (talk) 16:32, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep all. I agree with Mike and repeat the rationale I gave for the generic categories above. PearlyGigs (talk) 23:52, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, entirely trivial intersection between ethnicity and this occupation. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:38, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep all, no issues with sorting by ethnoreligion.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:53, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Note. There are currently five related discussions about Jewish people which should be viewed collectively as the points raised are common to all – please see each of Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_September_26; Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25; Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25; Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25; and Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 25. Thanks. PearlyGigs (talk) 10:28, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - the subject of Jewish athletes (and Jewish baseball players, etc.) has received plenty of coverage and so categories consistent with that subject are appropriate. Rlendog (talk) 14:14, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 19:00, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep as above. In relation to footballers, it is a notable crossover, see List of Jewish footballers. Must say I'm surprised there isn't a more general Judaism and association football article when it certainly merits it (just as we have Islam and association football); I'll rectify that in due course. GiantSnowman 19:03, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete all as a trivial intersection per WP:OCEGRS except Neutral on . If someone played in a specifically Jewish league or competition, such as the Maccabiah Games, then their article should be categorized in relation to this league or competition. Otherwise, sportspeople who just happen to be Jewish but play in generic leagues or competitions run or jump just as well as other competitors, I do not see any specificity there. It has been argued (although weakly) that there's something special for association football; I don't really see what except that a list of players could be written, but we can defer this one to another discussion. Place Clichy (talk) 16:32, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * On second thought and after re-reading the arguments above, I see no convincing reason to treat football specifically in relation to Judaism or Jewishness. The fact that one could write a list of players does not make the topic specific per WP:EGRS/I. Place Clichy (talk) 07:34, 5 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Writers from the German Empire
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 12%23Category:Writers from the German Empire

Category:Recipients of aid from Gerrit Smith
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: listify and delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 19:14, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting recipients of aid from gerrit smith
 * Nominator's rationale: Categorization by a non-defining / trivial characteristic. Smith's financial support to John Brown's raid or the career of Frederick Douglass is trivial. User:Namiba 13:12, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose Smith's financial support to John Brown's raid was not trivial at all. No one helped Brown more, and Smith feared prosecution and ended up for a time in the New York Lunatic Asylum, in Utica. Others he helped were not trivial either. He was the leading philanthropist of his day. deisenbe (talk) 13:16, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It is an important aspect and should be covered in the article. However, his raid is not defined by Smith's support in the way Wikipedia defines the term. "The defining characteristics of an article's topic are central to categorizing the article. Per WP:NONDEF, a defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to[1] in describing the topic, such as the nationality of a person or the geographic location of a place."--User:Namiba 13:27, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, C LYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE 17:26, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, not a defining characteristic of the people in this category. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:01, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  19:02, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Listify - I almost said keep, because - per the discussion above - this apparently meets the standard of "could an article be written about it". However, looking at the cat, it doesn't indicate the various reasons for the philanthopy. This seems better as a list, either to Gerrit Smith, or a separate list page. - jc37 19:35, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete This seems like a clear WP:OCASSOC and is non-defining. No objection to a list. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:36, 28 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Social class by region
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 19:16, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Social class by region to Category:Social classes
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, it is unusual to find "by country" and "by continent" under "by region". Marcocapelle (talk) 06:02, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oposse In my experience its not very unusual, and even if it is I dont think that is a good enough reason to delete.★Trekker (talk) 09:15, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It is not a deletion proposal but a merge proposal, so that the "by country" and "by continent" subcats can be found directly under Social class. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:56, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Support. As it makes it easier to access the two child categories Mason (talk) 01:34, 27 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. The only difference here per the existing by country/continent scheme is the attempt to have child categories for "The Americas" and "Latin America", conflicting with the longstanding categories for North & South America. Although there's always something a bit arbitrary in the way continents are defined, having several parallel schemes just ends up in having content badly categorized. Place Clichy (talk) 17:15, 1 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Talmud rabbis of the Land of Israel
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 12%23Category:Talmud rabbis of the Land of Israel

Category:14th-century Russian princes
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 12%23Category:14th-century Russian princes

Category:Enslaved workers at the University of Virginia
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: split to Category:University of Virginia people and Category:History of the University of Virginia (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  16:00, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Enslaved workers at the University of Virginia to Category:University of Virginia people and Category:History of the University of Virginia
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEF and WP:SMALLCAT. Enslaved people were forced to work against their will on many different projects and locations. Moreover, this category contains 4 articles, only two of which are about two notable enslaved workers. It is also unlikely to significantly grow in the foreseeable future. Lastly, all articles are already in so the contents should only be merged to . User:Namiba 20:14, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The enslaved workers should be honored and not dumped into the history of the Univ. of Virginia, which will mean no one notices them. It's an essential, valid categorization. deisenbe (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you may misunderstand the purpose of a category. It is intended to help readers of Wikipedia navigate similar articles. As WP:CATEGORIZATION states "the central goal of the category system is to provide navigational links to pages in Wikipedia, in a hierarchy of categories which readers, knowing essential—defining—characteristics of a topic, can browse and quickly find sets of pages on topics that are defined by those characteristics." A category is not a way to honor heroes.--User:Namiba 16:08, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Then write an article about it. Oh well, you already did. Place Clichy (talk) 18:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Split between Category:University of Virginia people and Category:History of the University of Virginia (which I think is what nominator means as well). The articles are interlinked in the body text, the category adds no additional navigational benefit. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete (or selective upmerge - but don't upmerge the articles on people to Category:History of the University of Virginia.) - This infomation should be noted at History of the University of Virginia, not in some category that few are likely to find or see. - jc37 00:58, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment to closer: I believe the above comment to be compatible with Marcocapelle's and my suggestion to split the category, ping us if unclear. Place Clichy (talk) 18:25, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Split between Category:University of Virginia people (individual articles) and Category:History of the University of Virginia (topic article Memorial to Enslaved Laborers). I don't think that the fourth article Liberation and Freedom Day, which is a Charlottesville city holiday, belongs in University of Virginia categories, although I don't want this comment to stand in the way of consensus. Place Clichy (talk) 18:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Social classes in the Ottoman Empire
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 16%23Category:Social classes in the Ottoman Empire

Category:Malayalam film songs
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Songs in Malayalam composed for film. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  16:06, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Malayalam film songs to Category:Film songs in Malayalam
 * Alt proposal: renaming Category:Malayalam film songs to Category:Songs in Malayalam written for films
 * Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to Category:Songs in Hindi and sibling Category:Film songs in Hindi, so a WP:C2C could be made for Category:Film songs in Malayalam. However, grandparent Category:Songs written for films suggests Category:Songs in Malayalam written for films. Technically we should favour the latter, but it's a bit wordier. NLeeuw (talk) 21:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  17:41, 11 September 2023 (UTC) Relisting comment: Which rename target? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:48, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support alt, Category:Film songs has deliberately been renamed in order to avoid songs in the category that existed before the film was released. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:58, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Songs in Malayalam composed for film or to Category:Songs in Malayalam composed for film soundtracks. Should use "composed". Not sure if the word soundtracks should be included. I can see reasons for and against. - jc37 17:33, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 5 - nominated to use "composed" as well. - jc37 18:10, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * I would be ok with "composed" instead of "written", my main point is to have "for film(s)". Marcocapelle (talk) 19:40, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I really don't have a big preference about "for", I'm merely trying to follow previous consensus to limit these to composed for film soundtraks, as opposed to being initially composed for something else. The only issue, I think, are those songs which are composed for a soundtrack, but are obviously intended to be top 40 hits as well. Not sure how to address that.
 * Anyway, as things stand, still supporting a rename to "Songs [in X] composed for film soundtracks", for all such cats. - jc37 01:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Religious structures destroyed by Muslim invaders
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Religious buildings and structures destroyed in the Muslim period in the Indian subcontinent. There is consensus against the current name, but not much consensus for a replacement. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  16:10, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Religious structures destroyed by Muslim invaders to Category:Religious structures destroyed by Muslim invaders in India
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, considering that one of the parent categories is an Indian category, this category is presumably be meant to be Indian too, but that is not apparent from its current name. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:47, 3 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Lean delete Not sure if this category should exist per WP:NPOV. The 'main article' does not fit the category, and it's framing this era in quite a religion-based negative way: "Muslim" + "invader". The subcategories may be legitimate, but the reductionist framing of all agents as "Muslim invaders" carries a certain Hindu nationalist and xenophobic anti-Muslim connotation. Given the current situation in the Republic of India, this is not an innocent framing, and I think Wikipedia should not be amplifying this POV if we don't need to. Incidentally, Category:Religious structures destroyed by Muhammad bin Tughluq may be merged for now to Category:Religious structures destroyed by Delhi Sultanate. NLeeuw (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Deletion would result in the subcategories becoming orphaned. A different rename seems a better solution to this problem. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:01, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  19:14, 11 September 2023 (UTC) Relisting comment: Which rename target? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:47, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I would take this NLeeuw remarks step further and say that even this Category:Religious structures destroyed by Delhi Sultanate should be renamed as Category:Religious structures destroyed during Delhi Sultanate - category should be as neutral as possible and anyone searching for destroyed religious structure during the rule of Foo state should look in article for the information on who actually destroyed what, why and how. What if there was also some Muslim structure destroyed under the same Muslim state, not necessarily by the Muslims themselves, and so on. After all, the category starts with "Religious structure" not with "Hindu religious structure" which means that any religious structure destroyed during, not by, during Delhi Sultanate could be placed into this category. -- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  21:13, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, here may lie a broader solution on how to rename neutrally this nomed cat ౪ Santa ౪  99°  21:16, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, that makes sense and in addition "invaders" is not always very accurate. Maybe something like Category:Religious buildings and structures in India destroyed under Muslim rule. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:52, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle @Santasa99 Main article is Muslim period in the Indian subcontinent. I guess parent Category:Islamic rule in the Indian subcontinent should also be WP:C2D'd then. But I see that category already contains all 4 subcategories (plus some sub-subcategories, so we need some re-parenting), so there is no risk of orphaning. NLeeuw (talk) 06:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: C2D'd parent. NLeeuw (talk) 06:50, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok then we can also rename the category to Category:Religious buildings and structures destroyed in the Muslim period in the Indian subcontinent, more closely mirroring the article title. Btw I don't think it makes sense to pollute Category:Islamic rule in the Indian subcontinent with so many different buildings categories, having one buildings parent category should be enough. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I fully agree with both of your ideas, guys, and I like better and would always prefer "during" and/or "period" than "under". I will try to find some time later today and help checking all sub to Category:Islamic rule in the Indian subcontinent concerning this issue (for instance, I already noticed existence of sub-sub containing only one article without any potential for growth). ౪ Santa ౪  99°  08:34, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Category:Religious buildings and structures destroyed in the Muslim period in the Indian subcontinent is the target that has incorporated all previous comments, so far it is the best. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:07, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Unclear on which name is best, but "Muslim invaders" is clearly POV and should not be used.--User:Namiba 18:39, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Suggest renaming to , per parent . Muslim invaders fares bad, especially since there were Muslim rulers in India for several centuries and its quite a stretch to call a native ruler such as Aurangzeb an invader. This entire tree is a bit astray, with 3 levels of subsequent categories being all redundantly placed in Category:Islamic rule in the Indian subcontinent, next to obvious omissions like Category:Religious structures destroyed by Delhi Sultanate nowhere in Category:Delhi Sultanate. Place Clichy (talk) 18:37, 1 October 2023 (UTC)


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Slovenian Wikipedia categories
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 * The result of the discussion was: rename all as proposed. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 23:26, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming category to Category:Culture articles needing translation from Slovene Wikipedia
 * Propose renaming category to Category:Articles needing translation from Slovene Wikipedia
 * Propose renaming category to Category:Featured articles needing translation from Slovene Wikipedia
 * Propose renaming category to Category:Science articles needing translation from Slovene Wikipedia
 * Propose renaming category to Category:Building and structure articles needing translation from Slovene Wikipedia
 * Propose renaming category to Category:Government and politics articles needing translation from Slovene Wikipedia
 * Propose renaming category to Category:Biography articles needing translation from Slovene Wikipedia
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D per Slovene Wikipedia. Pinging contributors to previous discussion (closed as procedural keep by me, in preparation for this nomination): @Gamerknowitall, @LaundryPizza03, @Marcocapelle, @Nederlandse Leeuw, @Pppery, @RevelationDirect. Qwerfjkl  talk  18:42, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per precedent. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 18:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Support per precedent. NLeeuw (talk) 18:54, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. Per precedent. --TadejM my talk 19:25, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per previous discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:42, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:C2D, consistency with main article's name. - RevelationDirect (talk) 20:54, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Family of Salmoneus
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  16:10, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Family of Salmoneus to Category:Aeolides
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT (3 articles, not likely to grow). User:Namiba 18:18, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 23:53, 3 October 2023 (UTC)


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Category:John Brown and family in Kansas
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 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 23:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting john brown and family in kansas
 * Nominator's rationale: Duplicative of Category:Bleeding Kansas and Category:Family of John Brown (abolitionist) User:Namiba 18:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete, odd mix of biographies and topic articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. Agree with @Marcocapelle Mason (talk) 01:39, 27 September 2023 (UTC)


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Category:Massacres of the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 23:49, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Massacres of the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war to Category:Military operations of the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war
 * Nominator's rationale: None of the articles inside is titled "massacre", so this appears to violate WP:NPOV. Additionally, there's a WP:OVERLAPCAT with Category:Military operations of the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war where the contents would fit best. Brandmeistertalk  15:19, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. NLeeuw (talk) 18:55, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Double merge, also to Category:War crimes in the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war. The member pages are already in other categories for war crimes, so there seems to be no justification for removing them from this parent. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:17, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Sawyer-mcdonell (talk) 22:53, 1 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Monarchs of Ethiopia
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 * The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 23:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Monarchs of Ethiopia to Category:Monarchs in Ethiopia
 * Nominator's rationale: rename per actual content. "Of" wrongly suggests that all monarchs ruled a country called Ethiopia, but mostly they ruled a territory within the borders of present-day Ethiopia. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Rename per nom. This has precedents in recently renamed categories such as Category:Dukes in Germany and Category:Dukes in Italy. NLeeuw (talk) 18:57, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * support rename Mason (talk) 21:39, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


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People of French-Canadian descent
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 * The result of the discussion was: delete and merge as explained by . (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 23:45, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging the following categories into Category:People of French-Canadian descent:
 * Category:Filipino people of French Canadian descent‎
 * Category:Honduran people of French-Canadian descent
 * Category:Japanese people of French-Canadian descent‎
 * Category:New Zealand People of French-Canadian descent
 * Nominator's rationale: All are 1-article categories. The proposed parent, after merger, would contain only 6 articles, hardly in need of diffusion. Gjs238 (talk) 13:51, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Presumably there should be a second merge target, e.g. Category:Filipino people of Canadian descent‎. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:47, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Let's look:
 * Delete Category:Filipino people of French Canadian descent‎:
 * 's is the grandson by paternal line of Tirso Muñoz Cruz Sr. and María Loreto Lagrosa Bailey. [...] Loreto's father, Lewis Edwin Bailey, was an American soldier, from Stowe, Vermont, and was the son of French Canadian immigrants. Great-great-grand-parents without a source are not worth a category, per WP:COP-HERITAGE and WP:BLPCAT.
 * Upmerge Category:Honduran people of French-Canadian descent to 3 parents: Category:People of French-Canadian descent, Category:Honduran people of Canadian descent and Category:Honduran people of French descent.
 * 's obituary in the National Catholic Reporter ("The Independent News Source") states that her French-Canadian father abandoned the family when she was just 11 months old, which would have been in 1927. Although it is not cited on WP:RS/P, that's better than what you usually have.
 * Upmerge Category:Japanese people of French-Canadian descent to 3 parents: Category:People of French-Canadian descent, Category:Japanese people of Canadian descent and Category:Japanese people of French descent.
 * Sources for Maria Ozawa are of the usual quality for porn stars biographies, but they do consistently state that her father is French Canadian.
 * Delete Category:Filipino people of French Canadian descent‎:
 * stated that his mother's family were Russian Jewish, Irish, and other European ethnicities, while his father's side was "Māori and a little bit of French Canadian". [...] Identifying as both Māori and Jewish, Waititi describes himself as a "Polynesian Jew". An unspecified "little bit", self-claimed in a podcast, to which the main individual does not even identify, does not make the cut. (WP:BLPCAT applies.)
 * Place Clichy (talk) 20:16, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support as per Place Clichy. Thank you for the time you put into that reply.
 * Gjs238 (talk) 01:03, 2 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Xbox Series X and Series S role-playing video games
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 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 19:17, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting xbox series x and series s role-playing video games
 * Nominator's rationale: Non-standard cross-categorization. Years ago, the WP:VG project went through and cleaned out "platform x genre" categories, and they've all long since been deleted. This new one is for the latest current generation Xbox. It is non-defining, that is none of the topic are explicitly known as "Xbox Series X/S role playing game". They are role playing games that happen to be on Xbox, in addition to many other platforms. -- ferret (talk) 13:43, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * agreed. thanks for the explanation. but do you suggest a better/closer alternative? Grandia01 (talk) 07:29, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Grandia01 The games in question are already in the correct categories. We do not build cross-categorization like this, for platforms + genres. You use the platform categories and genre categories separately. -- ferret (talk) 12:56, 28 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

People in Europe by century
Relisted, see Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 16%23People in Europe by century

Category:Jewish chess players
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 16%23Category:Jewish chess players

Category:Harvard University stubs
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Northeastern United States university stubs. No consensus to delete the stub template. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 23:39, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting harvard university stubs
 * Nominator's rationale: Underpopulated stub category with no evidence of approval by WikiProject stub sorting. As always, stub categories are not free for just any user to create on a whim: the minimum size bar for the creation of a stub category is 60 articles, and for that reason stub categories require approval by the Wikiproject before they may be created -- but there are only 14 articles here, and there's no evidence in "what links here" of any discussion to approve it. I'm neutral on the necessity of the template -- it can just upsort its articles into the and/or  parents, but the value of that may also be debatable because a lot of the articles here are about things associated with the school (songs, buildings, marketing campaigns, etc.) rather than schools per se -- but either way, there would have to be at least 46 more articles than this to justify a dedicated stub category. Bearcat (talk) 10:50, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * It should probably merged somewhere, perhaps to Category:United States education stubs. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:21, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge category to – it's not only for universities per se. Do not merge to, because  is a sibling of , not a sub-cat. Keep the template. – Fayenatic  L ondon 13:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Attorneys-General of the Colony of Victoria
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 * The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 23:38, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Attorneys-General of the Colony of Victoria to Category:Attorneys-General of Victoria
 * Nominator's rationale: Requesting the merge as there is only one article for Attorney Generals, yet there are two different categories ––– GMH MELBOURNE   TALK  09:25, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Inclined to keep, this is a proper subcategory of Category:British colonial attorneys general in Oceania, isn't it? Marcocapelle (talk) 10:15, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I'll withdraw. ––– GMH MELBOURNE   TALK  23:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)


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Category:Saudi Arabian people of Austrian-Jewish descent
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 23:37, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Option A: Propose merging Category:Saudi Arabian people of Austrian-Jewish descent to Category:Saudi Arabian people of Austrian descent, Category:Arab people of Jewish descent and Category:People of Austrian-Jewish descent
 * Option B: Propose merging Category:Saudi Arabian people of Austrian-Jewish descent to Category:Saudi Arabian people of Austrian descent only
 * Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:NARROWCAT. Regarding option B: one may wonder if someone still belongs in a Jewish category tree if they are not Jewish themselves after their parents converted from Judaism before their birth.  Marcocapelle (talk) 08:28, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete. While Talal Asad's father Muhammad Asad is described as an Austrian diplomat, he was actually born on 2 July 1900 to a Jewish family in Lemberg, Galicia, then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (which is currently the city of Lviv, Ukraine). Therefore, is probably the only category needed to convey this heritage. Similarly, I suggest to remove the article from  and, as his parents moving to Pakistan when he was 8 months old do not make someone of Pakistani descent (there are 4 other Pakistan-related categories). Place Clichy (talk) 20:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Moroccan people of Spanish-Jewish descent
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 * The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 23:38, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Moroccan people of Spanish-Jewish descent to Category:Moroccan Jews of Spanish-Jewish descent
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, for more clarity: the current title sounds as if these people are no longer Jews, but they still are. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:10, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment, lean oppose. I don't think being descended from a Jewish group requires them to identify as Jewish. They could have been adopted or converted. Converso s come to mind for this specific population. Mason (talk) 21:34, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose Changing this category name would put it at odds with the thousands of other categories that have the same naming pattern. Second, these categories are for ethnic descent. The people in these categories may or may not be Jewish. Changing the name unnecessarily narrows the scope of the category. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Russian exiles to the Russian North
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 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 23:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Russian exiles to the Russian North to Category:Russian exiles in the Russian Empire
 * Nominator's rationale: Small, underpopulated cat that isn't clearly defined. should be upmerged Mason (talk) 03:23, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Just delete, the article about Alexander Schlichter does not mention anything about exile and it is not defining for the other article either. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:47, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wildfires in Quebec
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 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 23:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Wildfires in Quebec to Category:Wildfires in Canada and Category:Natural disasters in Quebec
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT. 2 articles. –Aidan721 (talk) 00:08, 25 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep as category creator. SMALLCAT is for categories that "will never have more than a few members", but we've seen from the big wildfires of this summer that more articles are likely to be created in future in this category. It also links to a Wikimedia Commons category. Blythwood (talk) 02:32, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge for now without objection to recreation of the category when there are five articles about Quebec. Note that currently there is also an article about the whole of Canada in this category, that is not appropriate anyway. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:52, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge for Now per WP:NARROWCAT. No conceptual objection to the grouping but the category doesn't currently aid navigation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 15:01, 28 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.