Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 5

 &lt; September 4 September 6 &gt;

Category:12th-century women rulers

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Split It's quite clear from both this discussion and others on other days that despite one person (who !voted twice) vociferously disagreeing, they have failed to convince any of the other participants and hence there is a consensus to split this tree. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:52, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose splitting Category:12th-century women rulers to...
 * Category:12th-century women regents
 * Category:12th-century empresses regnant
 * Category:12th-century queens regnant
 * Category:12th-century queens consort
 * Category:12th-century princesses consort
 * Category:12th-century duchesses consort
 * Category:12th-century countesses regnant
 * Category:12th-century countesses consort
 * Category:12th-century ladies regnant
 * Nominator's rationale: This better describes the lives of these medieval women. I'm suggesting a split into no fewer than 9 new categories. Follow-up to Category:5th-century women rulers (Split), 2nd-century BC women rulers (Split), 3rd-century BC women rulers (Split), and 4th-century BC women rulers (Split). The "6th-century women rulers" CfS closed as "Split" as well; the "7th-century women rulers" CfS, the "8th-century women rulers" CfS, the "9th-century women rulers" CfS, the "10th-century women rulers" CfS, and the "11th-century women rulers" CfS are still ongoing.


 * Women regents


 * Adela of Normandy
 * Clementia of Burgundy
 * Anna Dalassene
 * Ermengarde of Anjou (died 1146)
 * Philippa, Countess of Toulouse
 * Talesa of Aragon
 * Ỷ Lan
 * Zainab Tari
 * Adela of Flanders
 * Adelaide of Cleves
 * Adela of Champagne
 * Agnes of Loon
 * Alice of France
 * Amina Khatun
 * Anastasia of Greater Poland
 * Guiscarda, Viscountess of Béarn
 * Beatrice of Saone
 * Beatrix of Limburg
 * Bertha, Duchess of Lorraine
 * Constance of France, Princess of Antioch
 * Eleanor of Aquitaine
 * Elizabeth of Hungary, Duchess of Bohemia
 * Gertrude of Northeim
 * Gertrude of Süpplingenburg
 * Hedwig of Gudensberg
 * Helena of Znojmo
 * Helena of Serbia, Queen of Hungary
 * Hodierna of Jerusalem
 * Empress Linh Chiếu
 * Margaret of Navarre
 * Maria of Antioch
 * Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
 * Matilda of Scotland
 * Empress Matilda
 * Mechthild of Schwarzburg-Käfernburg
 * Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem
 * Empress Meng
 * Naiki Devi
 * Petronilla of Aragon
 * Petronilla of Lorraine
 * Rusudan (daughter of Demetrius I of Georgia)
 * Sibylla of Acerra
 * Sibylla of Anjou
 * Sibylla of Conversano
 * Theresa of Portugal, Countess of Flanders
 * Urraca of Castile, Queen of Navarre
 * Adelaide del Vasto
 * Empress Xiang
 * Xiao Tabuyan
 * Yelü Pusuwan
 * Zumurrud Khatun


 * Empresses consort


 * Ỷ Lan
 * Beatrice I, Countess of Burgundy
 * Constance, Queen of Sicily
 * Empress Linh Chiếu
 * Maria of Antioch
 * Empress Matilda
 * Empress Meng
 * Xiao Tabuyan
 * Yelü Pusuwan


 * Queens regnant


 * Arwa al-Sulayhi
 * Arjayadengjayaketana
 * Constance, Queen of Sicily
 * Eleanor of Aquitaine
 * Isabella I of Jerusalem
 * Empress Matilda
 * Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem
 * Petronilla of Aragon
 * Sibylla, Queen of Jerusalem
 * Sugala Devi
 * Tamar of Georgia
 * Theresa of Portugal, Countess of Flanders
 * Urraca of León and Castile
 * Melike Mama Hatun. Anatolian beylik. Recommend: Princess regnant, but queen regnant also acceptable


 * Queens consort


 * Arwa al-Sulayhi
 * Adela of Flanders
 * Adela of Champagne
 * Beatrice I, Countess of Burgundy
 * Eleanor of Aquitaine
 * Elizabeth of Hungary, Duchess of Bohemia
 * Helena of Serbia, Queen of Hungary
 * Maud, Countess of Huntingdon
 * Isabella I of Jerusalem
 * Isabella of Hainault
 * Jaquinta of Bari
 * Margaret of Navarre
 * Matilda I, Countess of Boulogne
 * Matilda of Scotland
 * Naiki Devi
 * Rani Karpuradevi
 * Rusudan (daughter of Demetrius I of Georgia)
 * Sibylla of Acerra
 * Urraca of Castile, Queen of Navarre
 * Adelaide del Vasto
 * Zumurrud Khatun


 * Princess consort


 * Constance of Antioch. Recommend: Princess regnant, but princess consort also acceptable
 * Constance of France, Princess of Antioch
 * Eschiva of Bures
 * Isabella of Toron
 * Rusudan (daughter of Demetrius I of Georgia)


 * Duchesses consort


 * Ermengarde of Anjou (died 1146)
 * Philippa, Countess of Toulouse
 * Adela of Flanders
 * Agnes of Loon
 * Anastasia of Greater Poland
 * Beatrice of Albon
 * Bertha, Duchess of Lorraine
 * Gertrude of Süpplingenburg
 * Helena of Znojmo
 * Ida, Countess of Boulogne
 * Matilda of Scotland
 * Empress Matilda
 * Sibylla of Conversano
 * Theresa of Portugal, Countess of Flanders
 * Bertha, Duchess of Brittany. Recommend: Category:12th-century duchesses consort + Category:Duchesses regnant for now.
 * Constance, Duchess of Brittany. Recommend: Category:12th-century duchesses consort + Category:Duchesses regnant for now.


 * Countesses regnant


 * Adelaide, Countess of Vermandois
 * Matilda of Tuscany
 * Philippa, Countess of Toulouse
 * Theresa, Countess of Portugal
 * Adelaide of Forcalquier
 * Agnes I, Countess of Nevers
 * Hawise, Countess of Aumale
 * Beatrice I, Countess of Burgundy
 * Beatrice II of Bigorre
 * Beatrice III of Bigorre
 * Beatrice of Albon
 * Catherine of Clermont
 * Clementia of Catanzaro
 * Constance, Duchess of Brittany
 * Douce I, Countess of Provence
 * Douce II, Countess of Provence
 * Elisabeth, Countess of Vermandois
 * Eremburga of Maine
 * Ermengarde, Viscountess of Narbonne
 * Alix, Countess of Eu
 * Aldruda Frangipane
 * Gerberga, Countess of Provence
 * Ida, Countess of Boulogne
 * Isabella of Hainault
 * Ermesinde, Countess of Luxembourg
 * Margaret I, Countess of Flanders
 * Margaret of Clermont
 * Marie I, Countess of Boulogne
 * Mary, Viscount of Béarn
 * Matilda I, Countess of Boulogne
 * Matilda, Countess of Rethel
 * Petronilla, Countess of Bigorre
 * Agnes, Countess of Ponthieu
 * Sibylla, Queen of Jerusalem
 * Sophia of Rheineck
 * Tiburge, Countess of Orange
 * Uta of Schauenburg
 * Eleanor, Countess of Vermandois


 * Countesses consort


 * Adela of Normandy
 * Adelaide of Cleves
 * Alice of France
 * Hawise, Countess of Aumale
 * Guiscarda, Viscountess of Béarn
 * Beatrice of Saone
 * Beatrix of Limburg
 * Catherine of Clermont
 * Gertrude of Brunswick
 * Hildegarde of Thouars
 * Talesa of Aragon
 * Constance of France, Princess of Antioch
 * Douce II, Countess of Provence
 * Elisabeth, Countess of Vermandois
 * Gertrude of Northeim
 * Gertrude of Süpplingenburg
 * Hedwig of Gudensberg
 * Hodierna of Jerusalem
 * Maud, Countess of Huntingdon
 * Ida, Countess of Boulogne
 * Isabella of Toron
 * Ermesinde, Countess of Luxembourg
 * Margaret I, Countess of Flanders
 * Margaret of Clermont
 * Marie of France, Countess of Champagne
 * Mechthild of Schwarzburg-Käfernburg
 * Petronilla of Aragon
 * Petronilla of Lorraine
 * Petronilla, Countess of Bigorre
 * Sibylla of Anjou
 * Sophia of Rheineck
 * Theresa of Portugal, Countess of Flanders
 * Adelaide del Vasto
 * Eleanor, Countess of Vermandois


 * Ladies regnant


 * Arnalda de Caboet
 * Cecilia of Le Bourcq
 * Eremburga of Maine
 * Isabella of Toron
 * Juliana Grenier
 * Mathilde of Bourbon
 * Melisende of Arsuf
 * Stephanie of Milly


 * Princess regnant (2)


 * Constance of Antioch. Recommend: Princess regnant, but princess consort also acceptable
 * Melike Mama Hatun. Anatolian beylik. Recommend: Princess regnant, but queen regnant also acceptable


 * Duchesses regnant (2)


 * Bertha, Duchess of Brittany. Recommend: Category:12th-century duchesses consort + Category:Duchesses regnant for now.
 * Constance, Duchess of Brittany. Recommend: Category:12th-century duchesses consort + Category:Duchesses regnant for now.


 * Doubtful cases


 * Urraca of Zamora. Recommend: countesses regnant.
 * Alam al-Malika. Al-hurra. Recommend: Category:Female heads of government or Category:Women prime ministers.
 * Hōjō Masako. Midaidokoro (=Shogun's wife). Recommend: Category:Shōguns is in Category:Heads of state of former countries, so Category:Spouses of heads of state for now? Creating a Midaidokoro category (tree) if many others have articles, but "by century" scheme currently non-viable.
 * Urraca of León and Castile Empress regnant? Recommend: ignore. This title was claimed once but never recognised.


 * For categorisation purposes, I count (pun intended) margravines, landgravines and viscountesses as "countesses". Two women were princess regnant and two were duchess regnant, but that's not enough for a new separate category for the time being. I recommend classifying them as "consort" for now, and also putting the duchesses regnant in Category:Duchesses regnant. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:05, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  15:46, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Split at least in three. Monarchs, regents and monarch's consorts are clearly different roles. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:46, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Update The "6th-century women rulers" CfS closed as "Split" as well. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:08, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:21, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per obvious WP:OR such as "Melike Mama Hatun. Anatolian beylik. Recommend: Princess regnant, but queen regnant also acceptable", how can ruler of beylik be called "queen"? Marcelus (talk) 19:51, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Oppose per reasons given under other similar discussions. Marcelus (talk) 08:13, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You can't !vote twice. NLeeuw (talk) 17:24, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per precedent; due to above complaints about the nominator's proposed classification, decisions about classification should be made after the closure of the CfD. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 08:03, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * How so? The discussion is literally about classification, nothing else. Marcelus (talk) 09:18, 15 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Presidents of New York University

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Chancellors and presidents of New York University. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza<b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 03:05, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Presidents of New York University to Category:Presidents and Chancellors of New York University
 * Nominator's rationale: Category includes people who held both the position of chancellor (until 1952) and president (since 1952).  Ergo Sum  22:54, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:20, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * If renamed, then to Category:Chancellors and presidents of New York University, in reverse order and without capital. I do not have an opinion about whether renaming is needed at all. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:59, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Support per Marcoapelle's suggestion.--User:Namiba 15:38, 6 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Germanic history
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: No consensus * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 03:58, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose upmerging Category:Germanic history to Category:Germanic peoples
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:NARROWCAT. Essentially same scope, and many of the same subcategories already. Notably, the "main article" Germanic history already redirects to Germanic peoples, so this is almost a WP:C2D. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:27, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: The discussion above referred to in the comments is now the one directly below it. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:19, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * As one would expect Category:Germanic peoples to be primarily a set category with peoples in it, it may make more sense to upmerge Category:Historical Germanic peoples to it. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * One could. But that's not what this nom is about. Perhaps a good idea for a follow-up, but I believe it has already been rejected a few months ago. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I tend towards opposing, the merge would result in an odd setup of Category:Germanic peoples with lots of subcategories in it that aren't about a Germanic people. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Who says it should be about individual Germanic peoples (groups)? The subcategory Category:Historical Germanic peoples already serves that role, while Category:Germanic culture doesn't. That's fine. I don't see the problem. NLeeuw (talk) 20:55, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That is a fair point. Category:Germanic peoples must then be a topic category but isn't very recognizable as such. I am retracting my opposition but I am open to renaming Category:Germanic peoples differently. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename (over redirect) to Category:History of the Germanic peoples - Compare to Germanic peoples. (It looks like it was boldly moved in 2018.) - jc37 14:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That seems unneccessary; we've already got Category:Historical Germanic peoples for that. NLeeuw (talk) 20:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * As I noted in the nom above -We try to keep categories of people separate from the topic. So there is a difference between Category:History of the X peoples and Category:X peoples. So no, they are not the same. - jc37 12:56, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Plus POV discussions as above. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comments - I think the bigger part of the problem here is with the culture subcat, than with the cat itself. Let's rename the parent to focus on history (as I noted above), and then we can look at whatever issues there may be with the subcats of Category:Culture by language family/Category:European culture by ethnic group/Category:European folk culture, etc. - jc37 12:17, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Celtic history
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: No consensus to merge or rename this category in isolation, however there is a consensus for the broader restructure. Take note however, that none of the other categories were tagged. It appears from a quick glance that the restructure consists mostly of actions that could be done boldly, but if that's not the case things may need to be brought to a new CfD. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 03:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose upmerging Category:Celtic history to Category:Celts
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:NARROWCAT. Essentially the same scope. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:34, 27 August 2023 (UTC)


 * It is not the same, e.g. Celtic languages and Celtic nationalism do not belong under history. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle I know, but that's not what I'm proposing. ;) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:46, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I know, but then it is not clearly formulated why you are proposing what you propose and I am not sure if merging is necessary. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:35, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle Alright then let's make it clear: the Celts are history. They no longer exist. Everything we've written about them is historical. Adding a subcat called "history" is therefore redundant. You can compare it to your own recent CfM to merge Category:History of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia to Category:Socialist Republic of Macedonia. The state no longer exists; everything there is to write about it, is in the domain of history. NLeeuw (talk) 20:49, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The category also contains stuff that still exists, I mentioned languages and nationalism before. Of course I agree that the ancient Celts no longer exist but that may merely lead to renaming Category:Celtic history to Category:Ancient Celts (over redirect) and perhaps renaming Category:Celts to Category:Celtic topics. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think indeed there is a modern meaning for Celtic which is not really very linguistic or technical and more based on perceived links between Ireland; Scotland; Wales, Britanny etc. It may be based on old academic ideas but I think it is now a distinct everyday concept? Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:23, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:History of the Celtic peoples - Compare to Germanic peoples; or to Category:History of the Celts per Celts (which also uses Celtic peoples). I prefer setting the standard "X peoples", if we can, because there may be more of these. - jc37 14:25, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That seems unneccessary; we've already got Category:Historical Celtic peoples for that. NLeeuw (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, so we try to keep categories of people separate from the topic. So there is a difference between Category:History of the X peoples and Category:X peoples. So no, they are not the same. - jc37 12:56, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It also will lead to POV discussions, e.g. would Category:History of Scotland belong under Category:History of the Celtic peoples, as it is arguably the history of the Scottish people? I'd rather prefer Category:Ancient Celts in order to avoid that. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * We can discuss a group nom of Category:Celts and its subcats to Category:Ancient Celts, if you would like, but until then, Celts would appear to be the topic, I think? - jc37 12:56, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Both of you are making good points I hadn't considered yet. I hope this isn't too long, but that's what happens when fellow Wikipedians inspire you to think very deeply.


 * This last comment by @Jc37 is making me rethink the parentage of the whole tree. One of the key problems is that the Celts as a people or group of peoples ceased to exist in antiquity, and Category:Celts are therefore categorised as Category:Ancient peoples of Europe. But as @Marcocapelle correctly pointed out, Celtic languages and Celtic nationalism do still exist. Therefore, these topics are (perhaps somewhat paradoxically) independent of Celts/Category:Celts, because they can exist without them. On the other hand, the Celts couldn't have existed without the Celtic languages; they were/are defined by those languages. (Similarly, Celtic nationalism is, if not defined by, dependent on those languages.) So I think we got the parentage wrong. We shouldn't have:
 * Category:Celts > Category:Celtic culture > Category:Celtic languages.
 * Just like we shouldn't have:
 * Category:Germanic peoples > Category:Germanic culture > Category:Germanic languages.
 * Maybe we should reverse the parentage? I'll come back to this point.
 * Another question is where to put a category like Category:Celtic nationalism. The Category:Pan-nationalism tree suggests we shouldn't cross-breed it with a language (family) tree, even though as a theoretical concept and movement, language-based nationalisms like this depend on the (purported) existence of a language family. So Category:Celtic languages cannot be its parent/ancestor. (Compare how Category:Pan-Germanism is not a child/descendant of either Category:Germanic languages or Category:Germanic peoples).
 * In both cases, Category:Celtic culture presents a dubious link. The fact that main "article" Celtic culture is a disambiguation page makes it all the more dubious, and seems to confirm my suspicion, namely that it is an WP:ARBITRARYCAT or WP:OCMISC catch-all. (Incidentally, I'm afraid Category:Celtic topics will also be an WP:OCMISC catch-all).
 * Category:Ancient Rome seems to offer a solution, if a somewhat convoluted one, which may or may not work for Celts and Germanic peoples:


 * Category:Ancient Rome
 * Category:Ancient Roman culture
 * Category:Latin language in ancient Rome
 * Category:Ancient Romans
 * The good thing about this tree is that the ancient people is in a separate branch of the tree than its culture and its main language. But, although we've got a Germania and a Category:Germania, I'm not sure we can say the latter should be the parent of Category:Historical Germanic peoples (because "Germania" didn't necessarily encompass their entire habitat, for lack of a better term, as Category:Ancient Rome did as a state for the Category:Ancient Romans), let alone Category:Germanic peoples (which currently actually is its grandparent rather than its child). The worse problem is that we've got no "Ancient Celtica" or something which encompassed the habitat of all ancient Celts (Gallia Celtica is only a small part of it, and the so-called "Celtic nations" are a modern concept which also encompass only a small part of the entire ancient Celtic habitat).


 * Proposed restructuring
 * The best thing I can come up for now is to make Category:Ancient Celtic culture the parent of Category:Celts and Category:Celtic history (similar to how it was created 10 years ago). Everything ancient in Category:Celtic culture should be moved to Category:Ancient Celtic culture. Meanwhile, everything to do with Celts (modern) and Celtic Revival, including Celtic nationalism, should be moved to Category:Celtic Revival. And we should Template:Category see also these two trees to each other, but otherwise I would keep them wholly separate. Lastly, I think Category:Celtic culture should be little more than a disambiguation category between Category:Ancient Celtic culture, Category:Celtic Revival, and Category:Celtic languages‎, the only thing we could put in both trees, but also in neither. The fact that the main page Celtic culture is a disambiguation page also seems to warrant a "disambiguation category".
 * Category:Celtic culture (disambiguation category; main page = disambiguation page Celtic culture)
 * Category:Celtic languages‎
 * Category:Ancient Celtic culture
 * Category:Celtic archaeological cultures
 * Category:Celtic art‎
 * Category:Bards
 * Category:Celtic Christianity‎
 * Category:Celtic folklore‎
 * Category:Celtic law
 * Category:Pictish culture
 * Category:Ancient Celtic religion‎
 * Category:Ancient Celtic warfare
 * Category:Celtic Revival
 * Category:Celtic films
 * Category:Celtic festivals‎
 * Category:Gaelic culture
 * Category:Celtic music‎
 * Category:Celtic nationalism‎
 * I think this resolves pretty much all underlying parentage issues. NLeeuw (talk) 15:36, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * What about Modern Celtic instead of Celtic revival? If it is the old type being revived then why have such a distinction? Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:25, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Because Celts (modern) is in Category:Celtic Revival. NLeeuw (talk) 09:28, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:17, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a very clever solution! That would resolve the chronological inconsistencies without the need of a Category:Celtic topics. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure where I should thread in this, but just wanted to note that while the Celtic language is one defining feature of the Celts, it was not the only one. They don't exist as a people due to the languaage in and ofitself, but rather as a people, in which language is one of the culture's features.
 * Suggesting that the Celts only exist due to language would be like saying the Gauls only did due to language, or that the Greeks only did due to language, or the Persians, or or or. I think you get the idea. - jc37 20:17, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comments - I can support the re-structure, but with 2 changes: First that History of X peoples should not be in a tree of Culture of X/X culture. They should be in a history tree. There's a difference between history and culture. Second, that I don't think Category:Gaelic culture is appropriate under Category:Celtic Revival. If anything, it probably should be directly under the parent: Category:Celtic culture. Maybe the issue is having "revival" as the parent. If the parent of one is "Ancient Celtic culture", then one would think that the parent of the other would be "Modern Celtic culture". So maybe rename/split the "Revival" cat, per Celts (modern). - jc37 12:06, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * And to be clear, as far as the original nom, my opinion has not changed - Rename Category:Celtic history to Category:History of the Celtic peoples. It's clearer and more precise. - jc37 12:06, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:High schools in New Brunswick
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Diffuse There seem to be a lot of different terms being used here to describe the same thing, which makes finding a consensus harder, but in the end everyone agrees that some content but not all content should be moved from this category to new categories, and this one should be kept as a parent. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 03:46, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose splitting Category:High schools in New Brunswick to Category:Anglophone high schools in New Brunswick and Category:Francophone high schools in New Brunswick
 * Nominator's rationale: I'd still like to keep the current category, but the list of pages are, in my opinion, a mess right now. Because New Brunswick is officially English and French, it has a multitude of both English (Anglophone) and French (Francophone) high schools, so I'd like to create categories dividing the schools based on their language to better sort them out. B3251 (talk) 21:14, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Maybe diffuse (keeping this category as a parent), but there is no reason for splitting (i.e. deleting the original category). Marcocapelle (talk) 04:41, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * that's what I mean; sorry for putting it in this discussion, I just couldn't find another discussion area to place this specific case in- but I'd like to still have the current category as a parent category but also have the two language subcategories added to better organize all the high schools in the province. B3251 (talk) 10:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Split as proposed but keep nominated article.--User:Namiba 14:28, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Subcategorize per Marcocapelle -- 67.70.25.175 (talk) 06:48, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Diffuse, but the new categories should be called Category:English-language high schools in New Brunswick and Category:French-language high schools in New Brunswick to match similar categories such as Category:English-language schools. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 03:04, 13 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Conspiracy theorist politicians
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: Already deleted * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 03:44, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting conspiracy theorist politicians
 * Nominator's rationale: Category of politicians who are "conspiracy theorist" is inherently a violation of BLPCAT. "Do not categorize biographies of living people under such contentious topics as racism, sexism, extremism, and the like, since these have the effect of labeling a person as a racist, sexist, or extremist"  Springee (talk) 20:53, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete in the spirit of WP:C1, the category does not contain any articles with "conspiracy theorist" as a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:07, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete - I don't think we should be intersecting conspiracy theorist and occupation. The intersection does not appear WP:DEFINING. And unlike the rest of the subcats of Category:Conspiracy theorists, which group people by a specific topic of conspiracy theory, this gives no sense of specificity or precision. - jc37 21:19, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. We already have Category:American conspiracy theorists and similar to use where appropriate. The intersection of a conspiracy theorist and the holding of the occupation of politician is not a noteworthy one. Zaathras (talk) 21:21, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Snow delete because this would link the full spectrum of ideologies under one hardly unifying characteristic. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 02:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs written for film
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 23%23Category:Songs written for film

Category: Television and Production Exponents Inc.
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 03:01, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category: Television and Production Exponents Inc. to Category:TAPE Inc.
 * Nominator's rationale: C2D - duplicate categories, both created today. TAPE Inc. is the main article, and it appears to be the WP:COMMONNAME. Wikishovel (talk) 14:16, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge as duplicate. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:09, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:German queens consort
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 13%23Category:German queens consort

Category:Massey Lectures
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Massey College, Toronto. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 03:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting Category:Massey Lectures
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCASSOC and the spirit of WP:C2F, one eponymous page
 * The Massey Lectures are given at Massey College which are typically published into books, so there is a well populated Category:Massey Lectures books subcategory. The only thing directly in this category are the main article and a movie, based on a book, based on a lecture. If that association doesn't sound defining the editors who wrote Payback (2012 film) didn't think so either because the article doesn't even mention the Massey Lectures. (The only real growth potential is to add the speakers, but we've consistently found that categorizing people by individual lecture is WP:PERFCAT.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete, redundant category layer, the subcategory suffices. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Weak UpMerge to Category:Massey College, Toronto - noting that all except the film article is in the parent already. I can see it either way with the film. But since the book it was based upon was specifically written for the college's lectures, upmerging is not necessarily a bad idea, I guess. I also thought about a merge of Category:Massey Lectures books to Category:Massey Lectures, but that would fall afoul of WP:EPON. - jc37 21:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Upmerging would be ok too, with nearly the same result as deletion in this case. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they're pretty much the same here. Fine with merge. RevelationDirect (talk) 00:05, 11 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Holloway brooch recipients
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 03:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Propose Deleting Category:Holloway brooch recipients
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:PERFCAT, WP:OCAWARD, & WP:OVERLAPCAT
 * Suffragettes who were arrested in London were often detained at HM Prison Holloway. The WSPU gave out the Holloway brooch to recognize core members who had sentences there as part of suffrage jewellery. While these women are not defined by an automatic award, they are defined for being suffragette activists and are all already somewhere under the Category:Suffragettes tree. I previously added any category contents that were not already listified right here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. (Alternatively, if we think the underlying prison stay is defining, we could rename and broaden the category to Category:Inmates of HM Prison Holloway.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * againt delation Hello. I'm totally opposed to this proposition : what's the point to mix up "inmates of the prison" (including common law prisonners) and women celebrated by the Women's Social and Political Union, with many references (photographs), a WP article Holloway brooch and books (Elizabeth Crawford for instance : Medals and brooches presented by the WSPU, The Women's Suffrage Movement. A Reference Guide 1866-1928, Londres, Routledge, 2001, p. 306-307. --Pierrette13 (talk) 05:36, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * No issue for the verifiability with WP:RS. RevelationDirect (talk) 00:07, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, obvious case of WP:OCAWARD. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep, not all arrested suffragettes were in Holloway, not all WSPU members were arrested. So this category is both useful and interesting. Convinced by Pierrette13's plaidoyer.--Cbyd (talk) 16:42, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:BEFORECAT. Due to the need to clarify inclusion - as illustrated above by those wishing to keep - this should be a list rather than a category, per WP:CLN. I would have said Listify, but the list apparently already exists at Holloway brooch. - jc37 21:35, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.