Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 16

 &lt; July 15 July 17 &gt;

Category:Royal National Institute for the Blind alumni

 * Propose deleting royal national institute for the blind alumni
 * Nominator's rationale: This is a charity which, as far as I can tell, supports blind people but isn't a school. In any case, there is only one article in here. Omnis Scientia (talk) 23:48, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete, just one article in the category is not helpful for navigation. The charity seems to run a school though. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah alright. That makes sense. Omnis Scientia (talk) 07:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Irish blind musicians

 * Propose merging Category:Irish blind musicians to Category:Blind musicians and Category:Irish blind people
 * Propose merging Category:Irish blind harpists to Category:Irish blind musicians
 * Nominator's rationale: Only nationality category in Category:Blind musicians. Seems like an unnecessary intersection between nationality, musicians, and disability. Omnis Scientia (talk) 23:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:52, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Lean Oppose. I agree that the 3x intersection isn't really defining (although there is a section decided to Irish blind musicians Blind musicians). However, the parent category is large enough to be diffused by nationality.Mason (talk) 13:29, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Survivors of the attempted assassination of Donald Trump

 * Propose deleting survivors of the attempted assassination of donald trump
 * Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NOTDEFINING. I don't see how being a survivor of this particular shooting is a defining characteristic of these individuals, as they were all notable prior to the shooting taking place. Di (they-them) (talk) 17:27, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. 🪐Kepler-1229b &#124; talk &#124; contribs🪐 04:46, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per nomination. NotAGenious (talk) 17:34, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: Agree per the nomination and would like to add that the category sounds to me like these people survived getting shot rather than having been present at the event, so if this is kept, I would modify the category to something clearer like "People present at the attempted assassination of Donald Trump". Upjav (talk) 20:21, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete I don't know what the creator of the category was thinking. Super   Ψ   Dro  09:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. However, the category creator might just not know how categories work. Mason (talk) 13:30, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I know how categories work, just thought survivors don't have to be injured, Move to something like "People present at the attempted assassination of Donald Trump" per Upjav. - Sebbog13 (talk) 15:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Wander Over Yonder

 * Propose deleting wander over yonder
 * Nominator's rationale: Only contains two articles. No good merge targets. (Oinkers42) (talk) 16:53, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete, the articles are already directly interlinked. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

History of Brussels by period

 * Propose deleting Category:Austrian Brussels
 * Propose deleting Category:Dutch Brussels
 * Propose deleting Category:French Brussels
 * Propose deleting Category:Habsburg Brussels
 * Propose deleting Category:Reginar Brussels
 * Propose deleting Category:Spanish Brussels
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, this part of the history of Brussels tree overlaps entirely with Category:Centuries in Brussels, furthermore it is highly inaccurate. For example the Dutch period lasted only from 1815 to 1830 but the whole 19th century has been put under it. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:24, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Quota reform protest in Bangladesh

 * Propose merging Category:Quota reform protest in Bangladesh to Category:Bangladesh quota reform movement
 * Nominator's rationale: Same category. Mehedi Abedin 06:21, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Villains in mythology and legend

 * Propose deleting villains in mythology and legend
 * Nominator's rationale: As far as I know, "villain" is usually used in a literary context. We typically use "evil" to describe malevolent gods and there is already such a category called Category:Evil deities, making this redundant and pointless. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This category is not restricted to gods or goddesses. This is supposed to be a counterpart to Category:Heroes in mythology and legend, and just as there are plenty of folklore heroes, there are folklore villains too. AHI-3000 (talk) 07:25, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Support, demons are deities too (deities is broader than just gods and goddesses) and that leaves only one article in the category. That article illustrates nicely how difficult it is to classify a character as villain. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:03, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think that demons are typically classified as being "deities" or "gods". Deities and demons can both be spirits though. AHI-3000 (talk) 01:36, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What do you think of this? AHI-3000 (talk) 08:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose, in folklore there are several folk devils that can be covered. Dimadick (talk) 08:47, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Decades in the Colony of Virginia

 * Propose merging Category:Decades in the Colony of Virginia to Category:Decades in Virginia
 * Nominator's rationale: Redundant categoey lay Mason (talk) 03:08, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * It could be populated and turned into a subcategory of Category:Colony of Virginia. Most of all, parent Category:History of the Colony of Virginia is redundant. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose and add all relevant decade categories (1600s to 1770s). The Colony of Virginia and Virginia are not the same entity and should not be mixed up in the same category just because they have a similar them. The issue is with the year categories that aren't correctly named and thus the template YYY0s in one of the Thirteen Colonies isn't auto-populating these categories. Gonnym (talk) 15:08, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * See Category:Decades in the Massachusetts Bay Colony for how this should be correctly handled. Gonnym (talk) 15:09, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Current roller hockey seasons

 * Propose deleting current roller hockey seasons
 * Nominator's rationale: Empty and not enough possible articles to justify it as a subcat to "current sporting seasons". Pelmeen10 (talk) 03:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * if you found it empty then you could have tagged it as empty. If you emptied the category yourself then please mention what you removed. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:21, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It was empty, I have no clue when was it last populated. Pelmeen10 (talk) 12:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Boxing matches at Madison Square Garden

 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Madison Square Garden to Category:Boxing matches in New York City and Category:Sports competitions in Manhattan
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Boardwalk Hall to Category:Boxing matches in Atlantic City, New Jersey
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Caesars Palace to Category:Boxing matches in the Las Vegas Valley
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at the Las Vegas Hilton to Category:Boxing matches in the Las Vegas Valley
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Manchester Arena to Category:Boxing matches in Manchester
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Mandalay Bay Events Center to Category:Boxing matches in the Las Vegas Valley
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at MGM Grand Garden Arena to Category:Boxing matches in the Las Vegas Valley
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Staples Center to Category:Boxing matches in Los Angeles
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Caesars Palace to Category:Boxing matches in the Las Vegas Valley
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at T-Mobile Arena to Category:Boxing matches in the Las Vegas Valley and Category:Sports competitions in Paradise, Nevada
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Thomas & Mack Center to Category:Boxing matches in the Las Vegas Valley
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at The O2 Arena to Category:Boxing matches in London
 * Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Wembley Stadium to Category:Boxing matches in London

.:* Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Wembley Arena to Category:Boxing matches in London Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Nominator's rationale: Per the recent discussion and WP:OCVENUE. User:Namiba 16:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strongly oppose Removing these Categories will severely overpopulate the populated place pages User:Sam11333 16:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The only one to which that might apply is the Las Vegas Valley and even that won't be massive.--User:Namiba 16:51, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is any doubt on that one!
 * I can't see the logic in removing the venue categories, given that WP:OCVENUE states that "categories that indicate how a specific facility is regularly used in a specific and notable way" can be appropriate. I would argue that a boxing match falls under that description. Sam11333 (talk) 17:03, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Including these arenas in the boxing venues category is fine. But OCVENUE and the recent consensus I've cited is very clear "avoid categorizing events by their hosting locations".--User:Namiba
 * Tagging editors who commented on the most recent discussion User:Marcocapelle, User:Omnis Scientia, User:Epicgenius, User:Flibirigit.--User:Namiba 19:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Merge, the guideline is clear about this and the category isn't like Category:NBA venues for which is an exception is being made. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:08, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I would argue that Boxing matches are inherently more notable as events than sports where the same teams play each other very year. Sam11333 (talk) 10:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No one is arguing that boxing matches should not have articles.--User:Namiba 12:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per comments at the previous CfD for two of these categories. The guideline has no rational basis. Venue is a perfectly logical way to diffuse categories of boxing matches by city, just as categories of boxing matches by state and country are diffused into cities. Toohool (talk) 19:48, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Constitutionalism

 * Propose merging Category:Constitutionalism to Category:Constitutional law
 * Nominator's rationale: Duplicate category. The category creator really needs to slow down with the creation of narrow/non-defining categories. Mason (talk) 23:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Thoughts on deletion? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge or delete per nom. I am not sure of the merge target, hence deletion may be an option too. I added links between the two articles in the "See also" sections. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * I'm fine with deletion. (I struggled to pick a merge target. But I try to always at least propose one)Mason (talk) 13:31, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Counts of Geneva
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting counts of geneva
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, the category consists of two very different sets of medieval ruling counts of Geneva, who are already in Category:House of Geneva and for early modern members of the House of Savoy for whom this was merely an empty title. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:22, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep I don't believe the above summary to be quite right. Several members of the house of Savoy enjoyed practical control over the county and they are not going to be recorded in 'house of Geneva'. There is also the house of Thoire that controlled the county briefly in the late medieval period who presently lack articles but would be members of the category if they didn't. Moreover even after the city of Geneva slipped from their grasp (they maintained control of other parts of the county such as Annecy) the county remained prominent among their titulary (several of the sons of the dukes of Nemours were called the prince de Genevois until the death of their fathers) and is featured in the leading sentences of many of the articles. sovietblobfish (talk) 08:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I do agree some form of re-allocation needs to happen from Jacques on down. Especially given the county was raised to a duchy by the duke of Savoy in 1564. Perhaps they should be migrated to a category called something like 'Prince de Genevois' or 'Prince of the Genevois'. sovietblobfish (talk) 08:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course members of the house of Savoy enjoyed practical control over the county because it was part of the Savoyard state and the rulers of the latter were the ones enjoying practical control. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * At times yes, however the county (-1564 duchy) was under the authority of the cadet branch Savoie-Nemours for the majority of the 16th century and parts of the 17th century, and they were primarily French princes.
 * Irrespective of whether they or the dukes of Savoy enjoyed practical control, this surely challenges the notion that it was an 'empty title' and it is therefore meaningful to keep it. sovietblobfish (talk) 12:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:Bedouin businesspeople

 * Propose merging Category:Bedouin businesspeople to Category:Arab businesspeople
 * Nominator's rationale: Not necessary to subcategorize the target category this way. Also contains only 2 articles. Gjs238 (talk) 17:41, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Merge? Delete? Keep? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:30, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Just delete, the articles are already in Category:Egyptian businesspeople and Category:Syrian businesspeople, which should suffice. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per Marco. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Isn't there some benefit to categorising by ethnicity and nationality? Anecdotally, every Bedouin I've ever met would say that they're a Bedouin first and their nationality second. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 06:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * merge I will nominate Category:Arab businesspeople shortly because it conflates ethnicity and nationality, like so many similar categories that have been brought to CfD. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 22:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Does it conflate them or just set up a parallel scheme for ethnicity, i.e. Category:Businesspeople by ethnicity? Do you also object to Category:African-American businesspeople and Category:Jewish businesspeople? –&#8239;Joe (talk) 06:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Category:Jewish businesspeople is a recreation of a previously deleted category, so it is at least controversial. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * But it exists now. And recently declined a CSD nom with this enlightening edit summary: We're no longer in the same situation as before — the recent "keep" for Jews by occupation (Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 26) means that there's recent support for categories of this type, and speedy-deleting just this one would be absurd. I don't have a dog in this fight, but wouldn't it make sense to establish a consensus for or against categories by ethnicity, rather than seeking to delete individual ones here and there? –&#8239;Joe (talk) 11:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Retain I can list quite a few reasons for this: Bedouins have a distinct cultural, historical, and social identity within the Arab world. Merging their category into a general "Arab businesspeople" category could be seen as diluting the unique aspects of their cultural heritage. A specific category helps represent their unique challenges and contributions which might not be adequately covered. The Bedouin community has a history of nomadic trade and business practices that differ significantly from other Arab groups. A specific category preserves this historical context. Bedouins have distinct social structures and community dynamics that influence their business practices. Specific business strategies, success stories and challenges faced by Bedouin businesspeople can be studied with the help of a dedicated category. For cultural studies research, having a specific category can help in drawing more nuanced conclusions about the Bedouin way of life and their integration into modern economies. Furthermore, Wikipedia claims to be an inclusive platform representing diverse perspectives and communities. This category aligns with the principle of giving minority groups adequate representation. Merging the category marginalizes the Bedouin community within the larger Arab context.--Simxaraba (talk) 08:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * None of this addresses the small size of the category, and this is just WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 10:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There are several more businessmen that are notable enough to be written about. Just because the category is small at the moment doesn't mean there aren't more. Simxaraba (talk) 15:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Merge
 * Category:Bedouins not subcategorized by occupation
 * Category:Arab businesspeople not subcategorized by ethnic group

Gjs238 (talk) 10:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Brainwashing theory proponents

 * Propose merging Category:Brainwashing theory proponents to Category:Mind control theorists
 * Nominator's rationale: Whatever the difference is supposed to be between these two categories is beyond me. As far as I can tell, both categories are about people notable for writing works promoting the legitimacy of the sociological concept of brainwashing/mind control (which are more or less the same thing). This just seems like a slightly less neutral version of the other category made by a banned sock. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Merge or delete? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Just delete, the articles are already in Category:Researchers of new religious movements and cults and that is exactly where they belong. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle I disagree with this, because brainwashing is actually a sociological debate, not strictly related to cults, that had quite a lot of scientific input. Like half the people in the mind control category have no relation to NRMs/cults at all. Brainwashing as a concept has been discussed in relation to politics, kidnapping (see Patty Hearst), etc. It is its own thing: while it is often brought up in relation to cults that's not its only relevance. PARAKANYAA (talk) 20:47, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but the articles in the nominated category are about researchers of new religious movements and cults. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle They're also primarily notable for brainwashing in a NRM context so I think it should be upmerged. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The articles do not mention that they are a mind control theorist so I think you are applying WP:SYNTH. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:32, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle Of the 7 people in the to-be-merged category,
 * 1) Abgrall is noted as being a brainwashing theorist
 * 2) Clark’s article is a stub that doesn’t say much of anything
 * 3) Eichel’s article prominently mentions him presenting theories of brainwashing and mindcontrol
 * 4) Hassan’s article prominently mentions his theories of mind control
 * 5) Lalich’s article discusses her “coercive control” theories (also a synonym for mind control)
 * 6) Langone discusses his theories of mind control/coercive control as it relates to cults
 * 7) Singer’s article declares her notable primary for advancing theories of brainwashing
 * At least 6 out of the 7 with the other being a stub without proper context.
 * Mind control and brainwashing are the same thing (and our brainwashing page was at mind control until a few years ago) PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I may have jumped to conclusions too quickly. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * lol don't worry it's fine PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:53, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:Video games with expansion packs

 * Propose deleting video games with expansion packs
 * Nominator's rationale: Last year, on May 7, 2023. A similar category "Video games with downloadable content" was deleted, and expansion packs are pretty much the same as downloadable content. In turn, this category is probably non-defining. Expansion packs are as common as DLC, and are essentially the same. QuantumFoam66 (talk) 20:28, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: I am going to note that nom is QuantumFoam66. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:27, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete I'd agree with the nominator - having an expansion pack does not always modify the base game, so it's hard to call it a defining feature. Categories should be defining aspects of the subject, not something tangential. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose because there are several other potentially non defining categories like "Video games with alternate versions" that I would have put under discussion in the same nomination or whatever. QuantumFoam66 (talk) 21:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That is not a reason to oppose. Just discuss with nominator whether the other categories should be included in this nomination or else you can nominate them separately, then you can support both nominations. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Striking half of my comment because I did not realize that the oppose was from nominator themselves. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:24, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:Palestinian bedouins

 * Propose merging Category:Palestinian bedouins to Category:Bedouins in the State of Palestine
 * Nominator's rationale: Effectively redundant. Will require manual addition of parent categories to the target, for it is a downmerge. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 22:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Thoughts on Joe's comment? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:25, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom, but purge Al-Hamra, Baysan which is about a village that was depopulated in 1948. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What about Bedouins that originate in Palestine but now live in Israel (such as the Negev Bedouin) or Jordan? Category:Palestinian bedouins seems the broader category and therefore the better merge target. It also corresponds to an article, Palestinian Bedouin. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 06:31, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Negev Bedouin is in Category:Bedouins in Israel so I can't see this as a good argument against the rename. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It should be in both, since the area was formerly part of Palestine. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 08:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:19th-century feminists

 * Propose deleting 19th-century feminists
 * Nominator's rationale: There is no need to have an intersection between political orientation and century. Mason (talk) 02:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Weak support, I presume that early feminists are mostly in Category:Suffragists or belong there. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Feminist ideologies have evolved significantly across different centuries; therefore, the intersection between feminism and century is crucial. - The9Man  ( Talk ) 07:00, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * But how is the century*ideology defining at the intersection ? Are people defined by being 19th-century feminists? This is the only category by century. I think an alternative name could be viable, but I don't see how this underpopulated category is helpful.Mason (talk) 13:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)