Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 17

 &lt; July 16 July 18 &gt;

Category:American women artists of Chinese descent

 * Propose merging Category:American women artists of Chinese descent to Category:American artists of Chinese descent
 * Propose merging Category:American women artists of Indian descent to Category:American artists of Indian descent
 * Propose merging Category:American male artists of Indian descent to Category:American artists of Indian descent
 * Nominator's rationale: I don't see why we need to have an intersection with gender*occupation*Indian/Chinese descent. Male and women artists are non-diffusiong. Mason (talk) 22:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Scottish emigrants to the Tsardom of Russia

 * Propose merging Category:Scottish emigrants to the Tsardom of Russia to Category:Immigrants to the Tsardom of Russia and Category:Scottish emigrants and Category:British emigrants to Russia
 * Nominator's rationale: 3x merge for now, this is a very narrow intersection that's not needed for diffusion Mason (talk) 22:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Support merge to the first two merge targets, a one-article category is not helpful for navigation. I am in doubt about the third merge target because there wasn't a Great Britain or United Kkngdom yet. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:15, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:City founders from the Tsardom of Russia

 * Propose merging Category:City founders from the Tsardom of Russia to Category:Russian city founders
 * Propose merging Category:Explorers from the Tsardom of Russia to Category:Russian explorers
 * Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. These categories are underpopulated, and don't help navigation with the same individual person in them. Mason (talk) 22:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose after I populated these categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Indonesian women religious leaders

 * Propose merging Category:Indonesian women religious leaders to Category:Indonesian women by occupation
 * Nominator's rationale: Redundant category layer merge for now. (And nuns are religious works, not leaders) Mason (talk) 20:24, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge, agree with both of nominator's points. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:52, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Funeral and burial of Abraham Lincoln

 * Propose deleting funeral and burial of abraham lincoln
 * Nominator's rationale: These are venues associated with the funeral of Lincoln. Other than the article, the only ones related to Lincoln's funeral are his burial ground and the catafalque which should be moved to Category:Abraham Lincoln. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:24, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete, not a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Populated places disestablished in New Brunswick in 2023

 * Propose renaming Category:Populated places disestablished in New Brunswick in 2023 to Category:Populated places disestablished due to the 2023 New Brunswick local governance reform
 * Nominator's rationale: All of these relate to a single government reform in this year. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 02:59, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 00:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is a bit odd. The places haven't been disestablished but the local governments have. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * My first thought was to merge to Category:2023 disestablishments in New Brunswick, and remove them from the "Populated places disestablished" hierarchy. Compare Category:1974 disestablishments in New Brunswick which includes a raft of former electoral districts. However, the similar cases that arose from the 2015 Manitoba municipal amalgamations are directly within Category:Populated places disestablished in 2015, and disincorporated French communes are in the 2016 sibling, etc, so we should either purge all such cases of disincorporation, or keep/rename the category in some way. Would "disincorporated" be more helpful than "disestablished"? Perhaps all of Category:Populated places by year of disestablishment should be split between places that have been destroyed and those that were merely disincorporated. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I concur with your first thought the most. Splitting seems unnecessarily complex. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I guess that would also entail merging to Category:Populated places disestablished in 2023. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 10:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * my original point was that the place hasn't been disestablished. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:34, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Registrars of the Order of the Garter
Relisting comment: I will tag the category. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 01:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Registrars of the Order of the Garter to Category:Registers of the Order of the Garter
 * Nominator's rationale: In the Order of the Garter, there is no, and has seemingly never been an, office of 'Registrar'; it appears always to have been 'Register', and this is explained in the article with a citation link. ZeroAlpha87 (talk) 18:13, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * I would say delete per WP:NONDEF. Its notable to be a Knight or Lady of the Garter but not a register or registrar. I can't even find out if its even a position. Omnis Scientia (talk) 11:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Mid-Ohio Conference football templates
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:American Mideast Conference football templates to Category:Mid-Ohio Conference football templates
 * Propose renaming Category:American Mideast Conference football standings templates to Category:Mid-Ohio Conference football standings templates
 * Nominator's rationale: The American Mideast Conference last sponsored football in 1970 when the conference was known as the Mid-Ohio Conference. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:First women admitted to degrees at Oxford

 * Propose deleting first women admitted to degrees at oxford
 * Nominator's rationale: While notable interesting, I'd say this is trivial. Perhaps Listify. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: Not sure how anything can be admittedly notable and also trivial, but since I agree the topic is undoubtedly notable, it's a reasonable topic for both categories and articles. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:43, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Chiswick Chap, I was going for the word "interesting" and have updated my rationale to reflect that. But we don't categorize by degrees. Omnis Scientia (talk) 16:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete, we categorize by occupation, not by admission to education. Besides "first" is quite subjective. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Your reply is very quick, and certainly wrong, which suggests it wasn't considered. "First" can mean "the first group of women admitted to degrees at Oxford", which is objectively definable. And since when was occupation the only possible category? It obviously isn't, there are heaps of other categories, like 1949 births and people from different countries, to name but two. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If kept, then rename to Category:Women admitted to degrees at Oxford in 1920 to avoid confusion about the word "first". Marcocapelle (talk) 19:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: Might the use of the word "first" be clarified if the category were titled "Women first admitted to degrees at Oxford?" The significance of the event is not that these women received degrees in 1920, but that women had been denied degrees prior to that year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric Schonblom (talk • contribs) 20:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Eric Schonblom, that's true of every university then, is it not? Omnis Scientia (talk) 21:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Listify. Categories are meant to help navigation. They are not just bundles of interesting things.Mason (talk) 00:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Converting this to an article with a list is a good idea. The references are already on the category page. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:42, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle, I've got a draft in the works. Omnis Scientia (talk) 11:35, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Its also worth noting this is a list of women who were conferred degrees in 1920. They "graduated" a few years earlier, at different times. This is basically a ceremony to award degrees. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:18, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Marcocapelle (talk) 16:35, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Update: First women admitted to degrees at the University of Oxford has been moved to mainspace i.e. listified. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Models from London by borough

 * Propose deleting models from london by borough


 * Propose merging Category:Models from the City of Westminster to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Wandsworth to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Waltham Forest to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Tower Hamlets to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Southwark to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Richmond upon Thames to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Redbridge to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Newham to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Merton to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Lewisham to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Lambeth to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Islington to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Hounslow to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Hillingdon to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Havering to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Harrow to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Haringey to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Hackney to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the Royal Borough of Greenwich to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Enfield to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Ealing to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Croydon to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Camden to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Bromley to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Brent to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Bexley to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Barnet to Category:Models from London
 * Propose merging Category:Models from the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham to Category:Models from London


 * Nominator's rationale: Merge/Delete per WP:OCLOCATION Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:17, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't it be a dual merge to both parent categories? Marcocapelle (talk) 17:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle, I was planning to slowly phase out the "People by Royal/London Borough of Foo" categories. Its quite different from the New York City boroughs (not least that there are far more of those) and, as far as I can tell, most of the people categorized by London borough are, more of than not, from there.
 * In fact, I was going to suggest a purge of anyone who is not originally from London. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, I wouldn't oppose that, but until there has been a discussion about it it should still be a dual merge. Suppose consensus is against the idea, then borough categories ought to remain properly populated. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle, Alright, I will add those targets then. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Dual merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep categories with 5 or more members, i.e. Camden, Croydon, Hackney, H&F, K&C, TH, Wandsworth & Westminster. Merge the rest as too small to be useful for navigation. I looked at some marginal cases and was not able to populate them further. – Fayenatic  L ondon 18:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Fayenatic london, wouldn't you agree that this is WP:OCLOCATION? Omnis Scientia (talk) 21:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Omnis Scientia That guideline permits "diffusing a large category". As for "relevant bearing", IMHO it is relevant that some of these models come from disadvantaged areas of the capital. – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Fayenatic london, I would disagree - I don't think the category is particularly large in comparison to others to require diffusion - but I won't argue with you on it. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I would cheerfully concede to the majority if more editors think they should all be merged. I will place a notice at WT:LONDON. – Fayenatic  L ondon 10:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Religion in China Redux

 * Propose renaming religion under the shang dynasty‎ to Category:Religion in the Shang dynasty‎
 * Propose renaming religion under the han dynasty‎ to Category:Religion in the Han dynasty‎
 * Propose renaming religion under the jin dynasty (266–420)‎ to Category:Religion in the Jin dynasty (266–420)‎
 * Propose renaming religion under the tang dynasty‎ to Category:Religion in the Tang dynasty‎
 * Propose renaming religion under the song dynasty‎ to Category:Religion in the Song dynasty‎
 * Propose renaming religion under the jin dynasty (1115–1234)‎ to Category:Religion in the Jin dynasty (1115–1234)‎
 * Propose renaming religion under the yuan dynasty‎ to Category:Religion in the Yuan dynasty‎
 * Propose renaming religion under the ming dynasty‎ to Category:Religion in the Ming dynasty‎
 * Propose renaming religion under the qing dynasty‎ to Category:Religion in the Qing dynasty‎
 * Nominator's rationale: The rationale given by Marcocapelle for the previous CFD back in May:

This is usually the case, but as regards China X dynasty is the most common and natural form in English for the name of the state itself. Per the standard for analogous categories, e.g. Category:Religion in the Byzantine Empire, I think reassuming the previous pattern would be ideal. Remsense 诉  22:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Remsense  诉  23:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose, Category:Religion in the Byzantine Empire is not an analogous category because Byzantine does not refer to a dynasty. A good analogous example is Category:People under the Almoravid dynasty. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The state is what is being referred to here, wholly in line with the language used in English-language literature about China. Remsense  诉  04:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * A dynasty is something else than a state. If anything, the state is China. With the other example, the Almoravid dynasty, there is no commonly used state name at all, and that is also fine. State names may be derived from the dynasty name, e.g. Sassanid Empire and Sassanid dynasty but that is not the case here either. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to be rude, but I feel this is being overly deliberate about universal boundaries between interwoven concepts in a way that, I stress, ignores actual usage. In part, these lexical differences can be ascribed to the distinct paradigms of dynasties in China compared to elsewhere. Byzantium was not really dynastic at its core at all, with the legitimacy of the state always clearly surpassing that of lineages. China was not the opposite per se, it's just that there was a totally different, more consubstantial relationship between the Chinese state and its ruling dynasty.
 * Putting an even finer point on the "actual usage" argument: in a fulltext search of my library of China-related books, "under the Han dynasty" appears verbatim at some point in 14 books, while "in the Han dynasty" appears in 91! This ratio is 1:27 for the Shang, 11:21 for the Jin (both represented), 8:67 for the Tang, 6:54 for the Song, 11:42 for the Yuan, 16:52 for the Ming, and 7:51 for the Qing. This must reflect some conventional usage of "dynasty" in the name of a state, right? Remsense  诉  05:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle, not to hound, but do you have any thoughts about this? To be clear, there's no lexical weirdness about the dataset above: "X dynasty" is being used as the name of the state in all the results I manually checked. Remsense  诉  06:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Support per nom. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 14:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It doesn't make much sense unless there is a consistent translation issue in these books. I can understand the misunderstanding if Chinese language uses the same word for "dynasty" and "empire" while in English we have two words for it with different meaning. I'm not saying this is the case but it is the only hypothesis I can come up with. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not a "translation issue": most are native English books. Like I've said multiple times, it is the way the states are often referred to in English. I haven't been lying or misspeaking when I've repeatedly said that. I really didn't want to say something this blunt, but this is rather obvious and non-controversial to anyone who's read a little in English about Chinese history, or even China in general. What else would I have to do to demonstrate this fact to you? Remsense  诉  02:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Here, to make it more concrete:


 * Peter Kornicki (2018), Languages, Scripts, and Chinese Texts in East Asia: Interpreters were certainly needed when China expanded westwards in the Han dynasty (206 BCE – 220 CE), and they were later conscripted to manage encounters between Chinese and Uyghur speakers.
 * Livia Kohn (2000), Daoism Handbook: He distinguishes two major phases, classical Daoism and later Daoism, with the dividing line in the Han dynasty,
 * Chad Hansen (1982), Language and Logic in Ancient China: But sortals did not become grammatically necessary until sometime in the Han Dynasty.
 * Florian Coulmas (1999), The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Writing Systems: This number quadrupled in the Han dynasty and by the twelfth century had soared to about 23,000.
 * Martin Svensson Ekström (2024), The Origins of Chinese Literary Hermeneutics: Naturally, such a reading would still be thoroughly rhetorical since this “peasant-chorus” must be understood as a mere oratorical artifice, organizing the narration of this piece—“simple” peasants in the Zhou Dynasty could hardly have composed such an aristocratic poem.
 * Thierry Meynard & Daniel Canaris (2021), A Brief Response on the Controversies over Shangdi, Tianshen and Linghun During his tenure as superior, his crisis management skills were tested when for the first time in the Ming dynasty the Catholic Church was faced with official prohibition.
 * David E. Mungello (1999), The Great Encounter of China and the West, 1500–1800: Xu was a first grand secretary, perhaps the highest official position in the Ming dynasty.
 * Eliot Weinberger (1987), 19 Ways of Looking at Wang Wei: The relevant essay is 1½ pages long and is devoted to excoriating, in idiosyncratic language, all other translators and scholars of Wang Wei for failing to realize that the last word of the poem had an alternate meaning in the Tang dynasty: 'to rise'.
 * Victor J. Katz (2021), The Mathematics of Egypt, Mesopotamia, China, India, and Islam: The conservative nature of Chinese mathematics is also clear from the way in which classic texts were canonized in the Tang Dynasty, and became the core foundation for the teaching of mathematics,
 * Stephen Little (1988), Realm of the Immortals: The carving of miniature jade mountains reached its height in the Qing dynasty, during the reign of the Qianlong Emperor (r. 1736-1795).
 * David A. Palmer & Fabian Winiger, in Kenneth Dean & Peter van der Veer ed. (2018), The Secular in South, East, and Southeast Asia: China in the Qing dynasty (1644–1911) was a highly enchanted society.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is this helpful at all? If not, I would start being concerned that there's no possible thing I could do to demonstrate that commonplace usage happens to lie outside your personal intuitions in this case. Remsense  诉  03:12, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * English-language historians of China may have adopted the Chinese way of equating dynasties and empires, but that is not how we normally use English language. This is a global encyclopedia, not a Chinese one. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:11, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The proposed versions do not feel right grammatically. What I would expect to read under that sort of construction would be something like, eg., "Religion in Shang dynasty‎ China". CMD (talk) 04:05, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do the excerpts directly quoted above make you feel similarly? To address your notion head-on: those would not be the COMMONNAMES for these states. The COMMONNAMES for these states are, instead, Shang dynasty, Zhou dynasty, et al. I cannot make this clear enough. Remsense  诉  04:07, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As an ancillary but hopefully illustrative point: I prefer in to during here because there were often multiple dynastic states at a given time throughout Chinese history, so it would be potentially somewhat ambiguous if one were to speak of matters during the Song and during the Jin in a context where they were both around but did not begin or end around the same time. I have to reiterate, this is pretty much equivalent to one writing in the Byzantine Empire. Remsense  诉  04:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The excerpts above seem to mostly use "in" in a temporal sense, whereas reading the category "in" reads as being used geographically. It is not grammatically equivalent to write about a dynasty as compared to an Empire. CMD (talk) 04:52, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The COMMONNAMES for the states are exactly as above: that is why the articles for the states are named as such, after much historical deliberation onsite. However, your nuance is well-taken, but I'm not really sure how to cleanly demonstrate usage that can't be characterized as partially temporal, given that these are states that overlap in geographical area and are (mostly) consecutive temporally. Here's one, though:
 * Thomas Mullaney, The Chinese Computer (2024): Chinese telegraphy dates back to 1871, when a newly laid telegraphic cable between Shanghai and Hong Kong linked the Qing dynasty (1644–1911) to a rapidly expanding international network dominated by the British Empire.
 * Remsense 诉  05:05, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The common name for the state in all of these cases is "China". Dynasty names are useful tools both as disambiguation and as a simple way to vary the text with a bit of metonymy, but that does not mean the grammar transfers exactly. The example you gave reads fine to me, but it's not the same as what is proposed. Grammar considerations are why I assume all the proposed titles maintain "the", rather than what would be an unusual "Religion in Ming dynasty". Formulations like I noted above or a shorter "Ming China" would keep the same grammar though. CMD (talk) 05:35, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It is more common to say that something happened "in the Ming dynasty" or "during the Ming dynasty" than "under the Ming dynasty", because the phrase "Ming dynasty" most often refers to a state and a time period rather than a set of rulers. I realize this usage may be unfamiliar for people who haven't spent much time reading about Chinese history, but it is what's most common in reliable English-language sources about the subject. It's also not true that – for instance, the Jin dynasty (1115–1234) constituted only part of China by any reasonable definition, as it coexisted with the Song dynasty among other states. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 13:57, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I want to add that the phrase "(specific religion) during the X dynasty" is also used in articles like Islam during the Song dynasty, Islam during the Ming dynasty, Islam during the Qing dynasty, and Shamanism during the Qing dynasty. On the other hand, the phrase "Religion in the X dynasty" is used in the article Religion in the Song dynasty. --Wengier (talk) 17:00, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As that article states, the Jin Dynasty "was an imperial dynasty of China". That "during" is the same as "in" seems more evidence that the usage of "in" in such cases is temporal? If the proposal was Category:Religion during the Ming dynasty‎ this would be a different discussion. CMD (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support: Consistent with the article Religion in the Song dynasty. --Wengier (talk) 17:01, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Thai television series debuts by decade

 * Propose deleting thai television series debuts by decade
 * Nominator's rationale: This is an umbrella category for a whole slew of subcategories, which each have a slew of subcategories. However, each is sparsely populated. This is a logical area for a navigation template, something that there may be a bot already to populate. I am suggesting we discuss this template with a view to incorporating the whole hierarchy of content into a navigation template. If that discussion reaches that conclusion, then processes should be put in hand to populate the template and depopulate the sub and sub-sub categories, which may then be deleted as empty. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:17, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. What? Why would we create a template for unrelated entries that users will likely not ever use? This category system is exactly how this should be handled and how it is handled for other countries - see Category:Television series debuts by country and decade. This is a very strange deletion nomination. Gonnym (talk) 07:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The question should perhaps be what to do with the sparsely-populated early year subcats of Category:Thai television series debuts by year. A nomination to merge 1965, 1980, 1990, 1991 and 1999 to their decade parents would probably gain support. – Fayenatic  L ondon 08:59, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would support that. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:02, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For the record, some of the currently-empty subcats were created by and later emptied by the same editor, having been used temporarily for some series that started and finished within one year. – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems they've created a tree that I don't think exists in other countries. Category:1990 Thai television dramas instead of Category:1990 Thai television series debuts and Category:1990s Thai drama television series (see Category:2010s American drama television series). Gonnym (talk) 11:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:Baltic Germans

 * Propose merging Category:Baltic Germans to Category:Baltic-German culture
 * Nominator's rationale: Three related categories:


 * Category:Baltic Germans
 * Category:Baltic-German people
 * Category:Baltic-German culture

I am not sure which way to merge, but current situation makes a mess Estopedist1 (talk) 11:17, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * what I think should happen is it should be merged into "Category:Baltic-German people", than the page should be split into a new catigory called "Category:Lists of Baltic-German German people". the "Category:Baltic-German culture" should be made a subcategory of Baltic-German people. Zyxrq (talk) 14:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:01, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep as parent category of Category:Baltic-German people and Category:Baltic-German culture which are clearly different subcategories. Presumably there is also room for a Category:Baltic-German history. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:00, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I generally agree. Zyxrq (talk) 20:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle: in general, Baltic Germans (see this article) means "Baltic-German people". Umbrella concept should be something like "Baltic German world" (e.g. Wikidata bundle Wikidata:Q8459480) Estopedist1 (talk) 20:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Ethnic categories are normally organized as a topic category on top and a "people" subcategory for biographies. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:53, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Estopedist1 @Marcocapelle I think this is kind of on topic but you guys think it would be Appropriate to create a new Template such as, Template:Baltic-Germans similar to Template:Baltic states for organizational purposes? Zyxrq (talk) 01:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:Bengali cinema

 * Propose renaming Category:Cinema of West Bengal to Category:Bengali cinema, India
 * Nominator's rationale: The category should be changed since the main article's name was changed from Cinema of West Bengal to Bengali cinema, India. Jayanthkumar123 (talk) 14:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:01, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment, it is not a straightforward case of WP:C2D because nominator moved the article without RM. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:51, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Bengali cinema in India" would be better, but I suggest reverting the undiscussed page move instead for now, as this is part of Category:Culture of West Bengal, even though "[language] cinema" is the dominant naming format in Category:Indian film industries. please see WP:RM for how to start a discussion on a contested page move. – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:Jazzland Records (1960) albums

 * Propose merging Category:Jazzland Records (1960) albums to Category:Jazzland Records albums
 * Nominator's rationale: Not sure why two categories were created, but now releases in two categories belong to the same label. The only other label with a similar name also already has its own category: Category:Jazzland Recordings albums. Solidest (talk) 22:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:00, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment, the article name is Riverside Records. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Jazzland seems to be a sublabel of it. Riverside Records discography says it's subsidiary, Discogs says it's companion label. Solidest (talk) 12:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:Acquired citizenship

 * Propose merging Category:Acquired citizenship to Category:Change of nationality
 * Nominator's rationale: Per previous discussions on "Naturalized citizens". Omnis Scientia (talk) 23:09, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Reverse merge is actually a better option, per below comments. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: I've tagged Category:Change of nationality. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  16:00, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For the record, the precedents were Categories for discussion/Log/2024 June 1 and Categories for discussion/Log/2024 June 9. – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Manual reverse merge would be better, I think, because in some cases people become dual nationals without losing the first nationality – in which case they are acquiring rather than changing. Although "Change of nationality" is part of the name of the subcat Category:Change of nationality in sport, that name does not match its stated scope which is "Sportspeople who have represented more than one nation". – Fayenatic  L ondon 12:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Reverse merge. You don't have to change your original nationality to acquire a new one. Many people have more than one nationality. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comments
 * Category:Acquisition and loss of nationality would be the most accurate name — not necessarily the best one
 * There is a broader conflation in the category tree between Category:Nationality and its subcat Category:Citizenship. See Nationality section "Nationality versus citizenship" and table "List of nationalities which do not have full citizenship rights".
 * The category should encompass BOTH gaining a new nationality AND losing an old one (Renunciation of citizenship and Category:Denaturalization). As others have said, "Change of nationality" is bad because it suggests a combination of gaining AND losing. OTOH "Acquired citizenship" is bad because it suggests ONLY gaining, NOT losing.
 * subcat Category:Change of nationality in sport is not a true subcat. There are subnational and supernational "national" teams and there are sports where non-citizens can represent. It also seems to include things like the people who played for both Czechoslovakia and Slovakia.
 * jnestorius(talk) 01:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:18th century in Mozambique

 * Propose merging Category:18th century in Mozambique to Category:18th century in Portuguese Mozambique
 * Nominator's rationale: downmerge, redundant category layer, there isn't any content here that doesn't fall under Portuguese Mozambique. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:01, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with it, but can we leave this as a redirect to resolve the template from breaking? Mason (talk) 00:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:25, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting pending Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 3. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 01:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC) Relisting comment: Still pending Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  15:57, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose and reverse merge instead. What a mess Category:Years of the 20th century in Portuguese Mozambique is currently – half of the year subcats up to 1975 use "Portuguese" in the name, half don't. I prefer the solution at e.g. Category:20th century in Angola where everything is simply named "in Angola", but all years/decades/centuries up to 1975 are parented by Portuguese Empire. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised to see that removed some content from Category:Portuguese Angola in 2021, e.g. Category:19th century in Angola, on the grounds that "category may also contain indigenous history". IMHO that edit and any like it should be undone. But at least he still left that cat within Category:19th century in the Portuguese Empire. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Portuguese Angola and Portuguese Mozambique started off as just some coastal settlements and only late in the 19th century they expanded to what is currently Angola and Mozambique. The most extreme example is Mbunda Kingdom which was conquered by the Portuguese no earlier than 1917. It is comparable to Category:19th century in India which we should not want to be a subcategory of Category:British India. I think India is in principle a good example of how things should be done, except Angola and Mozambique only have a fraction of the number of articles of India. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, I think I understand how you distinguish between those parents now. But I am not persuaded by the India hierarchy as a model rather than Angola. India also has sub-hierarchies for, and . There is no such ambiguity between colonial powers for Mozambique.
 * I saw that you put Category:1924 in Mozambique into Portuguese Mozambique parent categories, and nominated it at Speedy. If these two layers are the way to go then presumably we should do likewise for all the Category:Years of the 20th century in Portuguese Mozambique not currently called "Portuguese". I suggest leaving redirects.
 * Ah. I've just found Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_June_5 and 19th century just below it, which ended with consensus NOT to use "Portuguese". In those discussions you didn't !vote but questioned whether the "Portuguese" disambiguator was needed. Why should we go against that previous consensus and use "Portuguese" now? – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * in my defense, I found the Indian tree only after the above discussion. But more importantly, I have no issue with calling 20th-century categories just "Mozambique" instead of "Portuguese Mozambique" because they geograhically coincide in the 20th century. In addition, I would propose merging all 19th-century (sub)categories and earlier to just Category:History of Portuguese Mozambique, Category:Establishments in Portuguese Mozambique and Category:Disestablishments in Portuguese Mozambique, and to centuries, decades and years in Africa. That is of course, assuming that articles about events in centuries, decades and years refer to Portuguese Mozambique (to be checked). So we would end up with main categories Portuguese Mozambique, 20th century in Mozambique and 21st century in Mozambique (with some overlap between Portuguese and 20th century). Marcocapelle (talk) 21:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it would be (barely) justifiable to retain Category:18th century in Mozambique to hold (2 P),  (1 P) and Old Cathedral of Quelimane. I would likewise keep.
 * But the rest of your proposal sounds right, as the other C16–C19 hierarchy contents are Fort São Miguel de Chicova, Fort São Caetano, Igreja Presbiteriana de Moçambique, Diocese of Lebombo, and redirects Captaincy of Sofala, Captaincy of Mozambique and Sofala, Captaincy-General of Mozambique and Rivers of Sofala, Province of Mozambique. The only other potential contents I found are Portuguese expedition to Sofala (1505), Siege of Mozambique (1607), Siege of Mozambique (1608).
 * Please can we start by undoing your recent parameterising of years in Mozambique into "Portuguese"? – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, I see that my request and this whole discussion becomes moot because of Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_3. I suggest that that CFD should be closed before this one. – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:3rd century in Africa (Roman province)

 * Propose deleting 3rd century in africa (roman province)
 * Propose deleting 4th century in africa (roman province)
 * Propose deleting 5th century in africa (roman province)
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory each. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Rename? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 23:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Rename all to ?? century in Roman Africa I populated these categories somewhat. However, in Diocletian's administrative reforms (sometime between ), Africa (Roman province) was split into Africa Zeugitana, Africa Byzacena, and Africa Tripolitania. In, these provinces were grouped together along with almost all Roman provinces on the African continent in the Diocese of Africa. Thus there essentially was no Roman province named just "Africa" in the 3rd-5th centuries. With my rename proposal, I suggest the new category scope includes all Roman and Byzantine-controlled areas on the African continent. The people categories need to be renamed as well. Daask (talk) 01:04, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It is still only 5 unique articles in 3 categories, then we'd better move the articles back and carry on with deletion. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Relisting comment: SMALLCAT is deprecated and should not be referencecs as an argument. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  15:30, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Rename per Daask; do not delete: Smallcat is best employed when there is no potential for expansion, but these categories have considerable potential for expansion, though they would be better renamed. While merging them is a possibility, that would risk reducing their utility as navigational aids.  This may be an area of study that has been neglected on Wikipedia, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of potential topics under these headings.  As far as I know, Roman Africa flourished at least until the time of the Vandal invasion, which would be worthy of multiple topics itself; I believe Belisarius attempted to reclaim Africa from the Vandals, which would seem to merit a topic; and of course it was still inhabited at the time the Muslims swept across it on the way to Spain, and that is a topic or two as well.  There may be some articles on Roman governors, petty kings, bishops and religious writers from the region.  It makes little sense to delete these categories now only to recreate them under substantially identical names once more articles have been written or added, justifying splitting a bigger category again.  P Aculeius (talk) 12:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Rename per Daask. There is considerable scope for expansion here. Dimadick (talk) 09:27, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:National military histories by war

 * Propose renaming Category:National military histories by war to Category:Military history by war and country
 * Nominator's rationale: I find this name very confusing. I think, based on the contents, it would be better off as Military history by war and country, and the child categories could be renamed Vietnam War military history by country etc Mason (talk) 04:58, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Rename target? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 01:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak support, agree with current name being confusing. The proposed target does not exactly describe what the category contains either. What about Category:Military history by country during wars? Marcocapelle (talk) 17:37, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Rename because of the confusion, but unsure about the proposed targets. Perhaps Category:Military history by country by war? This would introduce two specific criteria, enabling inclusion of subcategories like Category:Military history of the Soviet Union during World War II, and Category:Military history of Japan during World War II. But see additional comments below. PearlyGigs (talk) 08:33, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Relisting comment: Rename target? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  15:29, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * See also this nomination. I think that ultimately we do not need this tree at all, at most we need a Category:Military history of the United States by war. But it will take a few iterations to achieve that. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with eventually getting rid of the category, so any rename is an improvement in the meantime. Mason (talk) 12:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle: For clarity, are you supporting a rename to Category:Military history of the United States by war? House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 01:54, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No that is just the ultimate goal, but we can't do it all it once. I just mean that it does not matter too much how the category is being renamed when it is ultimately going to disappear. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Next steps: Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_13 and Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_13. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I've supported the proposed next steps and I agree the goal should be deletion of this category. Thanks for the ping, btw. PearlyGigs (talk) 10:27, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:WikiProject assessment categories needing attention

 * Propose renaming Category:WikiProject assessment categories needing attention to Category:WikiProject assessment categories with incorrect names
 * Nominator's rationale: The purpose of this category is unclear. Some categories were added manually, while others are tagged by Template:Category class — based on the template's source code, this happens if and only if the name is incorrect.  –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 21:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I've asked WP:AWBREQ to auto-tag all of the categories here that are manually added, almost all of which have only the category listing in their source code. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 23:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh wait, Category:Template Category class with class parameter not matching title exists. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 00:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Can Category class handle pages like Category:Disambig-Class Bihar articles of Low-importance‎? It has both class and importance. Gonnym (talk) 11:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I don't think there is an existing template that covers cateegory navigation for the quality–importance intersection. I'm also seeking to standardize category names fo this type with a recent WP:CFDS for the intersectional ones of WikiProject Amphibians and reptiles. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 20:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  15:27, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment Are you going to tag all 333 categories in Category:WikiProject assessment categories needing attention? Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This nomination is only about the parent, not its subcategories. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 20:34, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The "manually tagged" ones were added because while this has now faded somewhat, last year in particular there was an absolute epidemic of people making hasty, half-baked "standardization" edits to wikiproject templates that had the side-effect of spewing out new redlinked wikiproject class and importance rating categories (sometimes even for wikiprojects that don't even do importance-rating at all) at an absolutely alarming rate — meaning that as a person who works to clean up categorization errors at Special:WantedCategories, for several weeks I was getting slapped in the face with dozens of those at a time on every new generation of that report. They can't just stay red, which means they have to be either created or removed before the next generation of the report 72 hours later — but removing a template-generated category is impossible without either editing the template in ways that surpass my understanding of template-coding infrastructure, and thus likely breaking stuff, or totally reverting the changes that caused the redlinked category to exist in the first place, and thus being disruptive, so my only option was to create all of those categories myself. But creating a class or importance rating category is a more complex process than creating a mainspace category, especially in the cases where I would have had to create the entire importance-rating infrastructure from scratch (which I don't even know how to do), so it would have taken me weeks to do all the work myself — so especially given the sheer amount of crap I was having to deal with, my only realistic option was "do the absolute bare minimum necessary to make the category blue instead of red, and leave it in a place where the experts in wikiproject-rating categorization can fix it": namely, create a virtually blank category that doesn't contain all of the category-making code that a wikiproject assessment category should really contain, and then leave it in a "wikiproject categories that need to be fixed by people who actually know what they're doing" queue. There's absolutely nothing on this category that says it's only for naming errors, and there are other kinds of attention that a wikiproject assessment category can need besides naming problems alone — so it makes sense to create the proposed category as a subcategory of this if desired, but it doesn't make sense to move the existing category to this since there can be other legitimate reasons for its use besides naming problems alone. Bearcat (talk) 14:21, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Why not automate the creation and labeling of these categories? –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 04:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That would have to be done by somebody who knows how to do that, wouldn't it? Said somebody would not be me, so while those should be automated I'm not the one who can do that. Bearcat (talk) 13:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * I'm fine with splitting the incorrect names subcategory with the template-categorized system through Template:Category class and Template:Category importance, and leaving this category here. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 03:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:Hijacked journals

 * Propose deleting hijacked journals
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:NONDEF. Proposal: listify, where it could be better sourced. Currently this content is not discussed in the eponym article, Hijacked journal, nor in most member artciles, e.g., Sylwan. fgnievinski (talk) 19:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep None of these are reasons for deletion. If it's not discussed in each article, it should be. That individuals are not discussed in the main eponimous article is irrelevant, because they shouldn't be. We mention the first known case, Archive des Sciences as an example, but there's no reason to mention the others. WP:NONDEF also does not apply because journals do not control if they are hijacked or not, but it's very much an important thing to know about a journal. And if you want to have a list, have a list, but that does not make the category irrelevant or useless. Also an important defense for WP:CITEWATCH. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:00, 2 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete, lots of things can be a "important thing to know" (for whom?) but that does not put WP:NONDEF aside. No objection to listification if someone volunteers for that. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * for whom? For the reader. If you stumble upon a citation to e.g. Sylwan, it's important to know that Sylwan was hijacked, and that you may not be looking at the real Sylwan but the fake one. Also, per WP:NONDEF


 * a defining characteristic is one that reliable, secondary sources commonly and consistently define, in prose, the subject as having. For example: "Subject is an adjective noun ..." or "Subject, an adjective noun, ...". If such examples are common, each of adjective and noun may be deemed to be "defining" for subject.
 * We have multiple reliable sources describing these journals as hijacked
 * if the characteristic would not be appropriate to mention in the lead section of an article (determined without regard to whether it is mentioned in the lead), it is probably not defining;
 * If it's not mentioned in the lead, it should be.
 * if the characteristic falls within any of the forms of overcategorization mentioned on this page, it is probably not defining.
 * It doesn't fall into any of them.
 * &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Which sources define them as "a hijacked journal"? Marcocapelle (talk) 04:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * See Beall's list, Retraction Watch, ScholarlyOA (before it was itself hijacked), Walailak Journal, Nature, etc... &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:53, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Those are sources about the topic of hijacking. The question is about sources about the subjects in the category. Please read WP:NONDEF carefully. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:54, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Every one of those sources identify specific journals being hijacked, and how they were hijacked. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You're missing the gist of NONDEF, so I'll quote:
 * A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing the topic, such as the nationality of a person or the geographic location of a place.
 * It goes on to say:
 * if the characteristic would not be appropriate to mention in the lead section of an article (determined without regard to whether it is mentioned in the lead), it is probably not defining;
 * No Wikipedia article about a hijacked journal start (or should start) saying "Journal X is a hijacked journal". They just happen to be a victim of a scam. Granted, it's nice to know, but it needs to be sourced; a list would be the best place to cite sources, which is not technically possible in a mere category membership. fgnievinski (talk) 03:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No Wikipedia article about a hijacked journal start (or should start) saying "Journal X is a hijacked journal". No, but the lead could (and I would argue, should) end with "The journal was hijacked by, with a fake website at , and the legitimate site hosted at ".[source]" This is absolutely critical information because otherwise someone looking for e.g. Wulfenia could well end up checking the scam version rather than the legit version. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 07:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  15:24, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Per Headbomb's convincing arguments. If a journal is hijacked, that most certainly is a defining characteristic. --Randykitty (talk) 08:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Lean rename. Is there a better name than this? Like predatory? Mason (talk) 22:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hijacked means something very specific and applies to the victim of the scam. Predatory is a larger class of dubious journals. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Category:Members of the Fourth Aliyah

 * Propose dispersing Category:Members of the Fourth Aliyah Category:Immigrants of the Fourth Aliyah to the tree of Category:Immigrants to Mandatory Palestine
 * Nominator's rationale: disperse, period of 1924-1929 is arbitrary and we have diffused these migrants already by country of origin. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No, Marco. That’s not going to happen. This is a category specific to the period of the Fourth Aliyah, which was 5 years. We do not want to merge it into a 20 year period of immigration. Dag21902190 (talk) 07:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Members of the First Aliyah Category:Immigrants of the First Aliyah to Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine
 * Propose merging Category:Members of the Second Aliyah Category:Immigrants of the Second Aliyah to Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine to Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine
 * Propose dispersing Category:Members of the Third Aliyah Category:Immigrants of the Third Aliyah to Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine to Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine and the tree of Category:Immigrants to Mandatory Palestine
 * Propose dispersing Category:Members of the Fifth Aliyah Category:Immigrants of the Fifth Aliyah to Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine to the tree of Category:Immigrants to Mandatory Palestine


 * I have added the siblings too, they are based on equally arbitrary periods. If not merged, then at least rename "members" to "migrants" or something like that. It does not concern membership of an organization. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge/disperse per Marco's second proposal. Omnis Scientia (talk) 11:38, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * These are not arbitrary periods, you are flexing your ignorance of Israeli history.
 * Furthermore, believe it or not, definition of a “member” is “one of the individuals of a group”. The group of individuals who migrated to the Land of Israel during each Aliyah was a “member” of that respective Aliyah. They have been referred to as members of their respective Aliyot since the founding of the state.
 * if you want to change the word “member” for “migrant”, you will have to figure out how to change that on each person’s page. But your statement that “member” only refers to the “member of an organization”, is not true. It is your perspective of the word, but not reality.
 * I will note that the time you have dedicated to coming after these unique categories, and attempting to disperse them into the ether, piques my interest. You have spent hours attacking Israeli categories and pages, wasting time that could have been used being productive.
 * We will not be doing anything to the categories, as that would be denying the reality of each unique Aliyah.
 * I’m starting to have serious questions about the moderators of this platform. Everything Israel-related gets attacked non-stop (in an organized fashion), by people like you, who don’t even know what the Aliyot were! Making claims that each Aliyah is an arbitrary time-period is a blatant lie, and your privileges should be investigated. This is bizarre. Dag21902190 (talk) 13:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, I find it absolutely fascinating that you nominated the first five Aliyot for dispersal, but left out the Aliyah Bet category. Is it because Aliyah Bet was illegal immigration, and doesn’t make the Jews look good? So you wanted to disperse one through five, and keep just the illegal immigration?
 * This entire nomination should be ignored, and the bias you’ve shown by nominating it should come back and bite you. Dag21902190 (talk) 13:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 1st. Category:Aliyah Bet does not contain immigrants, it is a topic category. So that is something completely different. 2nd. Every of these Aliyahs is not a single group, they concern a process of several years with many separate groups and individuals. Group membership is therefore completely inapplicable here. 3rd. Please stop with personal attacks. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I’m not sure what you don’t understand, and the reason you keep doubling down on a subject you know nothing about is beyond me. Each Aliyah had its own unique movement. The facilitators of those Aliyot knew that they were facilitating the first, second, third, fourth, fifth Aliyah, and then Aliyah Bet. These categories organize the early Zionist immigrants to the land of Israel by the  specific Aliyah movements that facilitated their immigration. To deny the benefits of these categories, and continue to gaslight me, is just a disingenuous tactic. I frankly consider the mass nominations of my categories for” deletion” and “merging” as vandalism, and an overreach of your privileges. You are not a victim here, you are the attacker.  Dag21902190 (talk) 16:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Only now I notice that you have created Category:Members of Aliyah Bet too. I will nominate this category as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose dispersing Category:Members of Aliyah Bet to the tree of Category:Immigrants to Mandatory Palestine


 * Comment Categories were prematurely emptied by the nominator. Dag21902190. This should have waited until this discussion concluded. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * not by nominator, but by creator of these categories. They have manually moved the articles from "Members" to "Immigrants". That is a waste of effort because the move could have done by a bot if there was consensus for it. I have updated the proposal accordingly. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:21, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You should be investigated by Wikipedia for overreach of your editing privileges. You are stalking my page, attempting to merge all of my work into broader categories that don’t differentiate between Aliyot, (which is the entire point of these categories). This is the 12th category of mine that you have vandalized with some sort of banner, and for no good reason other than it relates to Israel. You didn’t like the word “member”, so I changed it to ”immigrant”. Now you’re making a blatantly false claim that each Aliyah is an arbitrary time period. It doesn’t matter to you if you revise history, as long as you prevent a compartmentalized gold-mine of information, like these categories, from existing. You are working hard to prevent any sort of organization that makes it easy to research the early history of Israel. Dag21902190 (talk) 12:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Nothing happened in 1924 that requires a category split for immigrants. It was simply a continuous inflow of immigrants. In addition, my proposal is not preventing anything because all articles will stay in Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine and Category:Immigrants to Mandatory Palestine. Finally these are no longer "your" categories, as soon as you create them they become Wikipedia's. See also WP:OWN. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:36, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Incorrect, please do more research. Case in point would be that nearly half of the 2nd Aliyah immigrants returned to their countries of origin, while the vast majority of immigrants of the 3rd Aliyah stayed in Israel. They were two separate waves, with totally different results Dag21902190 (talk) 13:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I can't see how that matters. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Marcocapelle, I saw the comment they inserted in your nomination and thought they were the nominator. What is going to happen with all of these "Member" categories that are now empty? Will they be turned into redirects if this proposal goes through? Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 20:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I can imagine your confusion about what happened. If nothing else happens these categories will become eligible for deletion as empty. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  15:21, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. I don't see a convincing argument to disperse. Marco points out 5 year periods are arbitrary, but so are centuries. If, as Dag states, there exists a mode of reference that divides the immigrants into 5 periods, and someone may reasonably be taking advantage of that division to differentiate between 2 immigrants from different periods, I don't see any reason to disperse. If Dag just invented this division himself I would agree, but my impression is that this isn't the case.  Jo e J Sh mo 💌 23:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC) not extended confirmed House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 00:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Weak keep I'm not confident they can be dismissed as arbitrary periods - insofar that distinct push and pull factors during the different periods makes each wave have its own characteristics - but even if arbitrary periods of early immigration, they are well recognised as distinct periods (at least within Jewish scholarship). Culturally, also, the Israeli concept of "returning home" as part of an Aliyah is distinct from immigration. For these reasons, the people who were part of such migration would most likely identify it with the X Aliyah name, not as anything else. So as long as there is a good source saying that an individual moving to (insert era) Palestine did so as part of an Aliyah, I believe it is a valid identifying category. My one is concern, though, that people who may have migrated and aren’t identified as part of an Aliyah may be added to these categories based on timespan alone; manual sorting could be required which (I know from experience) is exhaustive and nigh-impossible. For simplicity and not being technically untrue, I wouldn’t staunchly object to the merge proposals as laid out. Kingsif (talk) 15:02, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Kaguya-hime

 * Propose renaming Category:Kaguya-hime to Category:Works based on The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter
 * Nominator's rationale: All articles in the category are adaptations. Also the category title should use the current title of the main article. Mika1h (talk) 14:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:People by era in Rivers State

 * Propose merging Category:People by era in Rivers State to Category:People from Rivers State
 * Nominator's rationale: Upmerge. This is a redundant category layer Mason (talk) 13:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. The subcategory may be upmerged too. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:47, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:User talk archives

 * Propose deleting category
 * Nominator's rationale: Unknowing recreation, in 2016, of a category created in 2006 which was deleted at CfD in 2008. Same rationale applies now as in the nomination back then - it's not useful for navigation or collaboration to group disparate user talk archives. —  Scott  •  talk  12:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Comedy video games

 * Propose deleting comedy video games
 * Nominator's rationale: As per Comedy in video games there is no proof that a "comedy video game" genre actually exists, and while there are categories for "parody" or "satire", that is more self-evident. Comedy comes in numerous forms, making the separation between comedic and non-comedic unclear (I could call Garry's Mod a "comedy" game even if it is all unintentional). ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 07:21, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. What about licensed video game adaptations of comedy movies and shows? Category:Parody video games and Category:Satirical video games have significant overlap with this category, I'd argue many of the games listed here could be categorized as comedy games, what makes these subcategories more legit than the parent category? AHI-3000 (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Parody and satire might actually merit a merge into each other, but they are indicative of a clear attempt to mock the original source material which is quickly evident. McPixel is obviously a parody of MacGuyver. Meanwhile, comedic video games are rarely classified as such. I don't see anyone calling Drakengard 3 a comedy game despite in my experience being heavily humorous, people classify it as an action game. Comedy and parody/satire are not the same. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 07:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per previous category deletion in 2017 after a similar discussion. No such genre is discussed in reliable, secondary sources as associated with these entries and makes for blurry inclusion criteria. The "subcategories" do not require this parent category. czar  12:39, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do any "reliable sources" claim that there's evidence of a Parody or Satire genre for video games either? How are these terms any less subjective or more objective than for Comedy games? AHI-3000 (talk) 00:07, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What do you think of this? AHI-3000 (talk) 08:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I seriously have no idea whether there are comedic video games. I am not familiar with sources on this topic. Dimadick (talk) 08:49, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Google search for "comedy video games".
 * Not sure how many of these websites are considered to be reliable sources according to Wikipedia policies, but for what it's worth there does seem to be a belief that Comedy exists as a narrative genre for video games, akin to Horror, Fantasy or Science Fiction.
 * Also, please take a look at the "Comedy video games" category. Admittedly, most of the subcategories are for licensed adaptations of various film and TV franchises which everyone agrees are primarily comedic by nature. Games based on comedy movies and shows tend to also be comedic and heavily focused on humor.
 * And another thing to consider is that there are non-adaptational video game franchises that are known for having a mostly comedic tone. Some notable examples are Borderlands, Destroy All Humans!, Monkey Island, Ratchet & Clank, and Saints Row. And I'm quite certain that there are countless reliable sources which describe these games' focus on humor and satire.
 * AHI-3000 (talk) 20:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Russian Orthodox Church, Baku diocese

 * Propose deleting russian orthodox church, baku diocese
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer with only one article and one subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Churches under the Baku diocese

 * Propose renaming Category:Churches under the Baku diocese to Category:Russian Orthodox churches in Azerbaijan
 * Nominator's rationale: rename to align with Category:Russian Orthodox churches by country. Note that the territory of the Diocese of Baku and Azerbaijan coincides with the country of Azerbaijan. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:38, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Video game franchises by narrative genre

 * Propose renaming Category:Video game franchises by narrative genre to Category:Video game franchises by theme
 * Nominator's rationale: QuantumFoam66 (talk) 04:02, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose, this is clearly a subcategory of Category:Video games by narrative genre, why would you suggest an unrelated name? AHI-3000 (talk) 04:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Both current names are not exactly stating what the categories contain. They are about video games by series, not about franchises. It should rather become something like "Video games by (narrative) genre and series". Alternatively, the narrative category may also be upmerged, it does not make too much sense to ghettoize the three genres that are in it. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:31, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree that the supercategory name should have "series" instead of "franchises" in it to reflect the naming pattern of the subcategories. AHI-3000 (talk) 04:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, however I do not like these new "video game franchises by narrative genre". They really just feel like overcategorization despite dividing categories in a proper way (and if so, we'll merge it back with Video games by theme). The creator will probably not agree with me, but I hope some others will, and we'll discuss all these categories later. QuantumFoam66 (talk) 17:55, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Rename to Category:Video game series by narrative genre, per AHI-3000. I think many of the surrounding categories, such as Category:Video game franchises by genre, should be renamed similarly. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 04:48, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Fajemirokun family

 * Propose deleting fajemirokun family
 * Nominator's rationale: Delete for now. There are only two people in this family, which could be interlinked if it was clear how they were related. Mason (talk) 01:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:33, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:NBC LX Home affiliates

 * Propose deleting nbc lx home affiliates
 * Nominator's rationale: No longer available OTA but still streaming; these stations have/will start airing a new diginet, NBC American Crimes (no article yet) Mvcg66b3r (talk) 00:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Nintendo controversies

 * Propose deleting nintendo controversies
 * Nominator's rationale: This category is terrible, for several reasons:

- Contains a bunch of loosely unrelated content, only defined by "being related to Nintendo", even some that Nintendo, the video game company, was not even in involved in, such as the Burger King one, as well as the other Pokémon ones, especially the ones about the anime.

- The category already overlaps with other Controversies categories.

- We could start a new category to divide the Pokémon controversies, but we cannot, we currently do not have any categories for controversies over a specific media franchise, and in turn never should.

If we delete this category, we will need undo some of Blakegripling_ph's edits for which he changed.

Also, if you insist on retaining this category by making a similar category like "Works taken down by Nintendo", we don't, because information on this topic should better be located in the article "Intellectual property protection by Nintendo". QuantumFoam66 (talk) 00:06, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Purge and merge, after purging games and characters there are three articles and a subcategory left that are truly about a controversy. These may be manually merged to Category:Video game controversies and Category:Nintendo insofar the articles aren't already in these trees. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Good point, bad news though: the parent categories "Video game controversies" and "Nintedo" would not fit in that article about Burger King Toys. Nintendo, the video game company, was not involved in it, neither is it a controversy over a video game, or a controversy at all. QuantumFoam66 (talk) 04:06, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok that is also fine. Thanks for the notification. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:14, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Purge and merge per Marcocapelle. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 04:46, 17 July 2024 (UTC)