Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 21

 &lt; July 20 July 22 &gt;

Category:Lists of tennis commentators

 * Propose merging Category:Lists of tennis commentators to Category:Lists of announcers of American sports events
 * Nominator's rationale: Only one article in the category, upmerge to the parent category. Let&#39;srun (talk) 22:04, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Dual merge, also to Category:Tennis commentators. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

German Confederation

 * Propose renaming Category:1815 in Germany to Category:1815 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1816 in Germany to Category:1816 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1817 in Germany to Category:1817 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1818 in Germany to Category:1818 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1819 in Germany to Category:1819 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1820 in Germany to Category:1820 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1821 in Germany to Category:1821 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1822 in Germany to Category:1822 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1823 in Germany to Category:1823 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1824 in Germany to Category:1824 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1825 in Germany to Category:1825 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1826 in Germany to Category:1826 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1827 in Germany to Category:1827 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1828 in Germany to Category:1828 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1829 in Germany to Category:1829 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1830 in Germany to Category:1830 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1831 in Germany to Category:1831 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1832 in Germany to Category:1832 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1833 in Germany to Category:1833 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1834 in Germany to Category:1834 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1835 in Germany to Category:1835 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1836 in Germany to Category:1836 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1837 in Germany to Category:1837 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1838 in Germany to Category:1838 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1839 in Germany to Category:1839 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1840 in Germany to Category:1840 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1841 in Germany to Category:1841 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1842 in Germany to Category:1842 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1843 in Germany to Category:1843 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1844 in Germany to Category:1844 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1845 in Germany to Category:1845 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1846 in Germany to Category:1846 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1847 in Germany to Category:1847 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1848 in Germany to Category:1848 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1849 in Germany to Category:1849 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1850 in Germany to Category:1850 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1851 in Germany to Category:1851 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1852 in Germany to Category:1852 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1853 in Germany to Category:1853 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1854 in Germany to Category:1854 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1855 in Germany to Category:1855 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1856 in Germany to Category:1856 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1857 in Germany to Category:1857 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1858 in Germany to Category:1858 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1859 in Germany to Category:1859 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1860 in Germany to Category:1860 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1861 in Germany to Category:1861 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1862 in Germany to Category:1862 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1863 in Germany to Category:1863 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1864 in Germany to Category:1864 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1865 in Germany to Category:1865 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1866 in Germany to Category:1866 in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1820s in Germany to Category:1820s in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1830s in Germany to Category:1830s in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1840s in Germany to Category:1840s in the German Confederation
 * Propose renaming Category:1850s in Germany to Category:1850s in the German Confederation
 * Nominator's rationale: rename, there was no unified German country until 1871. The German Confederation (1815-1866) was a loose connection of independent states which also included Austria and Bohemia. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is follow-up on this earlier discussion, pinging contributors to this discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:52, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Rename all per above and 10 July discussion. Thanks for the ping, . PearlyGigs (talk) 21:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Jewish American slave owners

 * Propose merging Category:Jewish American slave owners to Category:American slave owners
 * Nominator's rationale: merge per previous precedent here Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Pinging @Marcocapelle and @Smasongarrison from previous Cfd. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Support per nom as long as everyone is already in American Jew category. Mason (talk) 19:25, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Smasongarrison, there were a few which weren't but I've added them to the appropriate subcats of Category:American Jews. Omnis Scientia (talk) 23:04, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Mason (talk) 23:26, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge per WP:OCEGRS. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:13, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge as proposed. OCEGRS definitely applies here. PearlyGigs (talk) 21:51, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Jewish businesspeople

 * Propose deleting jewish businesspeople
 * Nominator's rationale: My speedy delete nomination was declined (Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_July_8) because there have been more recent mixed opinions of the intersection of being Jewish and several occupations  (e.g., Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_May_14; Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_August_29; link:for a search of CFDS with the word Jewish, sorted by most recent);Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_12). I think that this category is problematic under WP:EGRS given that it is primarily based on a stereotype rather than a defining intersection. I recall that several business-related child categories have been deleted over the same concern. (I think that Jewish Bankers is an exception because of the historical context of banking in Europe being a non-Christian occupation because of usury) Mason (talk) 16:41, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Omnis Scientia, do you remember with business occupations were recently deleted? (My brain is telling me that you were in those conversations.)Mason (talk) 16:57, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Smasongarrison, no I wasn't but I would say this one should be deleted. A lot of Jewish businesspeople, historically speaking, so WP:EGRS applies. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! (Lol, my bad. I should clearly stop listening to my brain 🤣 for advice!) Mason (talk) 19:27, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:OCEGRS. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Fire temples

 * Propose merging Category:Fire temples in Azerbaijan to Category:Fire temples and Category:Religious buildings and structures in Azerbaijan
 * Propose merging Category:Fire temples in Georgia (country) to Category:Fire temples and Category:Temples in Georgia (country)
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT, 1 and 2 members respectively. Both were created by an editor who was subsequently blocked for WP:SOCKING. – Fayenatic  L ondon 14:25, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge, while WP:SMALLCAT is inactive as a guideline, this size of categories is obviously not helpful for navigation. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Korean women independence activists

 * Propose renaming Category:Korean women independence activists to Category:Women Korean independence activists
 * Nominator's rationale: I'm the creator of the category now on an IP. I originally created the cat under the target name, but it was speedy renamed a while back. I think the new name is either incorrect or confusingly worded. My original scope for the category was "Women who advocated for Korea's independence", not "Korean women who advocated for independence". There were several non-Korean women in the category at time of renaming. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 12:39, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Smasongarrison Courtesy tagging the prev renamer; please lmk if my interpretation of the new name is incorrect 104.232.119.107 (talk) 12:41, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose rename and Propose splitting to Korean women independence activists and Women activists for Korean independence. Clearly, the original name was confusing as it could be interpretated as either. Mason (talk) 14:26, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support this proposal. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 14:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * For foreign activists, why would we make a distinction by gender? Marcocapelle (talk) 15:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Marco makes a good point. I am not familiar with the literature/history of women's activism on this issue. IP, can you point to literature on this subject? Either way, I think that "Activists for Korean independence" is clearer.Mason (talk) 16:54, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm a newbie to category naming discussions, so not sure what kind of info is helpful. My quick hand count on South Korea's database of activists who received awards has 7 female non-Korean activists for Korean independence, although I know of maybe 1-2 others who haven't received awards and the number keeps expanding. For foreign activists for Korean independence of any gender, there are around 70-90ish commonly recognized I think. I'd prefer a single category for women activists for Korean independence of any nationality and not a split.
 * Also, I'm not sure how much WP:COMMONNAME is typically weighed for categories. "Activists for Korean independence" is a less common wording than "Korean independence activist", although it is possibly clearer. SK has an "independence activist of the month" program . 104.232.119.107 (talk) 20:33, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Battles of the Venetian–Genoese wars

 * Propose merging Category:Battles of the Venetian–Genoese wars to Category:Venetian–Genoese wars
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose there are land battles for these conflicts as well, even if we don't yet have articles on them. E.g. the Siege of Acre (1257-1258) which launched the War of Saint Sabas, or the Siege of Alghero, or the Siege of Negroponte (1351), which was actually under the category propose for deletion until the nominator changed it to the inappropriate category on naval battles. Constantine  ✍  11:28, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Upmerge per nom. We might even upmerge its subcategory Category:Naval battles of the Venetian–Genoese wars to Category:Venetian–Genoese wars as well. As this was a series of 4 separate wars rather than a single war, other parents such as Category:Battles by war arguably do not apply. NLeeuw (talk) 12:04, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment 3 out of 4 wars in this series already have their own subcategories, in which those same battles are also grouped:
 * (first war) Category:War of Saint Sabas‎ (1 C, 10 P)
 * (second war) Category:War of Curzola‎ (1 C, 3 P)
 * (fourth war) (Category:War of Chioggia‎ (1 C, 3 P)
 * If we upmerge as proposed, then we'll have these battles grouped both in Category:Venetian–Genoese wars and in these 3 subcategories. Per WP:DIFFUSE, that's not very practical. Would it be worth upmerging those subcategories as well to avoid duplication? Aside from the battles and the main articles of the 1st, 2nd and 4th war, the only other contents are "People of the Xth war" subcategories, which we've also already covered in Category:People of the Venetian–Genoese wars. In short, there's a lot of duplication going on here. I'm not sure which solution I would find most elegant, but I'm considering this alt proposal:
 * Category:Venetian–Genoese wars: contains main articles Venetian–Genoese wars, War of Saint Sabas‎, War of Curzola‎, War of the Straits, War of Chioggia‎, and all other articles we can't diffuse;
 * Category:Battles of the Venetian–Genoese wars: contains all battles including land, naval and siege battles. No subcategories by war.
 * Category:People of the Venetian–Genoese wars: contains all people of all four wars. No subcategories by war.
 * Might this work better than the proposal of nom? NLeeuw (talk) 12:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Happy to discuss further merges but shall we do that in a next nomination? We don't need a trainwreck. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * True. I guess we could always rename the naval battles subcategory to just battles if we decide to go with my alt proposal. Your proposal is an okay first step. NLeeuw (talk) 16:19, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

History of Great Britain by period

 * Propose deleting Category:Millennia in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:1st millennium BC in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:1st millennium in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:2nd millennium in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:3rd millennium in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:Centuries in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:1st century BC in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:1st century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:2nd century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:3rd century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:4th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:5th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:6th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:7th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:8th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:9th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:10th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:11th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:12th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:13th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:14th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:15th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:16th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:17th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:18th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:19th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:20th century in Great Britain
 * Propose deleting Category:21st century in Great Britain
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, presumably the consequence of the deletion of Category:History of Great Britain in this earlier discussion is that its subcategories should also be deleted. I will follow up with decades and years later.
 * pinging participants to previous discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:04, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment Well, let's see how this tree works. Category:Centuries in the United Kingdom has child cats Category:19th century in the United Kingdom‎, Category:20th century in the United Kingdom‎, and Category:21st century in the United Kingdom‎. That means I support a Just delete for Category:19th century in Great Britain, Category:20th century in Great Britain, and Category:21st century in Great Britain as being entirely duplicative. But for the 18th century and earlier, I'll take another look first. NLeeuw (talk) 10:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Category:Kingdom of Great Britain can largely replace Category:18th century in Great Britain; perhaps a merge? Before 1707, most by century categories are just redundant layers for Xth century in England, Scotland and Wales. An exception to this pattern are things like Category:11th-century churches in the United Kingdom and Category:16th-century architecture in the United Kingdom. Strictly speaking, there was no "United Kingdom" before 1707, so there were no events happening in a UK that didn't exist yet. But that's not really what the category is saying: it is saying that churches and other buildings preserved to this day, and located in what today is the UK, date from the 16th and 11th century, respectively. In that case, these building subcategories only vaguely say anything about events in the 16th and 11th century (namely, construction in century X of building Y), and more about buildings in the UK today that stem from that time. I don't know. I'm not very found of these "establishments" categories anyway, as they all too frequently lead to these sort of anachronisms, and we may well wonder how WP:DEFINING it all is. Thoughts?
 * More on topic, I think I am overall in favour of the proposal to delete these categories, unless merging is a better idea. NLeeuw (talk) 10:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi, . Category:11th-century churches in the United Kingdom presents the sort of exception that epitomises the whole problem. First, it has only article, St Tugual's Chapel, which is on Herm in the Channel Islands. As far as I can tell, there is no other chronological category that could hold the article. Its other categories are Category:Herm and Category:Churches in the Channel Islands. I think we need to look at all articles in these GB/UK categories and decide if they need any kind of chronological categorisation. Personally, I think St Tugual's Chapel does not, because of its location. PearlyGigs (talk) 11:46, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The Channel Islands aren't in the United Kingdom; they're Crown Dependencies. The chronological category for that chapel should be Category:11th-century churches, unless the date can be narrowed down to a decade or a year. Ham II (talk) 12:41, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Heh, I had forgotten about the crown dependency status. Makes the categorisation even more awkward and silly. NLeeuw (talk) 16:20, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Good points. Incidentally, its parent Category:11th-century architecture in the United Kingdom is a redundant layer, we might as well upmerge that right away. NLeeuw (talk) 11:59, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Leaning Keep as these categories cover the island of Great Britain, and are analogous to the Category:History of Ireland tree for the island (not the Republic) of Ireland. This avoids the anachronism of using "United Kingdom" for centuries before the 19th. (The categories for centuries in the UK start at Category:19th century in the United Kingdom.) Category:History of Great Britain by period has subcategories for ancient, medieval and early modern history; that is less anachronistic than if they were in the United Kingdom category tree.
 * The problem with Category:History of Great Britain was the scope (the period 1707–1800, which made it indistinguishable from the scope of Category:Kingdom of Great Britain); in my opinion it should be recreated, with the scope being the history of the island. Ham II (talk) 10:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. I don't think re-creating the category will solve the underlying problem. The comparison with Category:History of Ireland is tempting, but I think the island of Ireland can much more easily be taken as a scope, as both the Republic and Northern Ireland are relatively recent phenomena that lead to few ambiguities for categorisation.
 * Perhaps we should first delete the 19th, 20th and 21st-century categories and go from there? NLeeuw (talk) 11:55, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree we should immediately delete the 19th, 20th and 21st century ones which have no articles and only the requisite English, Scottish, and Welsh sub-categories. PearlyGigs (talk) 13:08, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It would be rather artificial if a category tree for the island ended in the 18th century. Could there be a "United Kingdom > Great Britain > England, Scotland and Wales" (plus "Ireland (1801–1923)" and "Northern Ireland", as appropriate) structure for the 19th century onwards? Ham II (talk) 13:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm inclined to delete all but I think we need to exercise caution by ensuring that all articles are satisfactorily categorised first. For example, Category:12th century in Great Britain has just one entry, Historia Regum Britanniae. That is a famous manuscript with a wide range of categories but we must ask if it needs one relating to its 12th-century British authorship. It is essentially an English work, despite its title, so should it go into just the Category:12th century in England tree, or also into those of Category:12th century in Scotland and Category:12th century in Wales? PearlyGigs (talk) 11:20, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to say only Category:12th century in England, as place of production. I agree with you. NLeeuw (talk) 11:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Essentially English?! See  – the only English one there is Bede; all the rest are Welsh or, in Gildas's case, a Celtic Briton more generally. The place of production is traditionally, but spuriously said to be at "Geoffrey's Window" in Monmouth Priory, Wales. Ham II (talk) 12:26, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I missed that. Reading the "Contents" section of the article, the summaries of the twelve books seem focused on events in what became England, both Romano-British and Anglo-Saxon. Scotland and Wales seem to be other places as in "The Britons (in England) are immediately besieged by attacks from Picts, Scots and Danes"; and "The remaining Britons are driven into Wales". I agree with adding it to Category:12th century in Wales but I think we can exclude Scotland.
 * Actually, this does underline the need for caution when handling articles in GB/UK categories. Thanks, . PearlyGigs (talk) 13:04, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Wait, the contents of the Historia should be irrelevant to categorising its place and time of production. Even if it had 23 entire chapters on Karakalpakstan in the 7th century, but was written in High Wycombe in the 12th century, it still went only into the Category:12th century in England, not Category:12th century in Uzbekistan (nor Category:7th century in Uzbekistan). NLeeuw (talk) 16:25, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose The island of Great Britain has a distinct history, and we should be able to populate these categories. I suggest recreating Category:History of Great Britain. Dimadick (talk) 13:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Cathedrals in Baku

 * Propose merging Category:Cathedrals in Baku to Category:Cathedrals in Azerbaijan and Category:Churches in Baku
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, Category:Cathedrals in Azerbaijan is otherwise nearly empty. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Armenian Catholic churches

 * Propose merging Category:Armenian Catholic churches by country‎ (6 C) to Category:Armenian Catholic churches
 * Propose merging Category:Armenian Catholic churches in Lebanon‎ (2 P) to Category:Armenian Catholic churches and Category:Eastern Catholic church buildings in Lebanon and Category:Armenian churches in Lebanon and Category:Armenian Catholic Church in Lebanon‎
 * Propose merging Category:Armenian Catholic churches in Romania‎ (2 P) to Category:Armenian Catholic churches and Category:Eastern Catholic church buildings in Romania and Category:Armenian churches in Romania
 * Propose merging Category:Armenian Catholic churches in Syria‎ (2 P) to Category:Armenian Catholic churches and Category:Eastern Catholic church buildings in Syria and Category:Armenian churches in Syria
 * Propose merging Category:Armenian Catholic churches in Turkey‎ (2 C) to Category:Armenian Catholic churches and Category:Eastern Catholic church buildings in Turkey and Category:Armenian churches in Turkey and Category:Armenian Catholic Church in Turkey‎
 * Propose merging Category:Armenian Catholic church buildings in Israel‎ (1 P) to Category:Armenian churches in Israel (the article is already in Armenian Catholic cathedrals categories)
 * Propose merging Category:Armenian Catholic church buildings in the State of Palestine‎ (1 P) to Category:Armenian churches in the State of Palestine (the article is already in Armenian Catholic cathedrals categories)
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, mostly just one or two articles per category, merging them facilitates navigating to more church articles more easily. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:10, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:Oriental Orthodox monasteries in Azerbaijan

 * Propose merging Category:Oriental Orthodox monasteries in Azerbaijan to Category:Christian monasteries in Azerbaijan
 * Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary layer. Contains Armenian Apostolic sub-cat, and 1 page Yerits Mankants Monastery which says it was affiliated with Armenian Apostolic Church. Move page into subcat and upmerge. The other parent Category:Oriental Orthodox monasteries by country already holds the subcat via Category:Armenian Apostolic monasteries by country, so a dual merge is not needed. – Fayenatic  L ondon 08:08, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. I have already moved the article to the subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:08, 21 July 2024 (UTC)