Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 7

 &lt; July 6 July 8 &gt;

Category:Converts from atheism or agnosticism

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  18:24, 28 June 2024 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 23:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 21:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Converts from atheism or agnosticism to Category:Former atheists and agnostics
 * Nominator's rationale: merge (or reverse merge), it is unclear how these two categories are different from each other. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support merge. I think that converts from FOO is supposed to model other religion converts categories. I'd be interested in anyone from the religion/athesist categories chiming in in case we're missing something. Mason (talk) 02:07, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep It's part of an overarching category sceme with a certain logic. Former Fooians can become converts to some other religion, e.g. Barism.
 * But if the new religion or lack thereof of the former Fooians cannot be determined, we cannot diffuse them to a subcategory called converts to Barism from Fooism.
 * Or, it may be that a former atheist or agnostic has embraced some form of theism, but not converted to a specific institutionalised or traditional form of it. Category:Converts from atheism or agnosticism is a containercat that currently only allows us to diffuse former atheists and agnostics as converts to Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism. But of course, those are far from the only options on the 'market', so to speak.
 * I think this indeterminacy, as well as lack of options to diffuse to, is what requires these categories to remain separate. (Honestly, I understand where the idea to merge them comes from, and I had to think for quite some time before figuring out why I had a hunch that it might not be a good idea, and writing this down haha). NLeeuw (talk) 17:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * PS: A good example of a former Fooian whose current religion or lack thereof cannot be determined is Wesley Snipes. Raised as a Christian, converted to Islam, then left Islam, and we don't know what he considers himself these days. The default assumption may be that he is therefore an atheist or agnostic these days, but no RS says that, so such a conclusion is OR.
 * Similarly, there has been quite a lot of controversy around Antony Flew, a life-long atheist who appears to have embraced some form of theism just before he died and co-wrote a book titled There Is A God with a Christian. That Christian co-author has claimed that Flew converted to Christian theism just before he died, and that the book is "evidence" of Flew's wholehearted, sincere embrace of the Christian religion. Meanwhile, several atheists came out and called foul play, alleging that the co-author put words in Flew's mounth in order to construct a deathbed conversion story that is really convenient for propaganda purposes, and that Flew seems to have not embraced Christianity specifically, but a more general vague theism. Who can say? Flew is not there anymore now to explain. That's why he is in Category:Former atheists and agnostics, but not in Category:Converts to Christianity from atheism or agnosticism, as his religious views just prior to his death cannot be precisely determined, and thus diffused. NLeeuw (talk) 17:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose or widen the scope of the merge . The category Category:People by former religion has quite a few categories in it, including this one, of people by former religions or former non-religion. If we merge this one it would make sense to merge all of them. However, I feel like both categories are useful, as "Convert" categories show what they converted too, while the "Former" categories (which include the Converts as a subcat) are for those where the conversion "destination," for lack of a better word, is unknown. Relinus (talk) 15:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's also worth noting categories like Category:Converts to Christianity, or Category:Converts to Islam, etc. all have many subcategories named "Converts to ____ from ___" which include the subcategories of Category:Converts from atheism or agnosticism, namely Category:Converts to Buddhism from atheism or agnosticism‎, Category:Converts to Christianity from atheism or agnosticism, Category:Converts to Hinduism from atheism or agnosticism‎, Category:Converts to Islam from atheism or agnosticism, and Category:Converts to Judaism from atheism or agnosticism‎. It's not clear how this would be dealt with in the merge proposal. Relinus (talk) 15:55, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well said. You explain some of what I was trying to say better than I could. NLeeuw (talk) 17:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I do not understand the logic. Of course there are people who do not fit a "converts to" subcategory deeper in the tree. But how does it matter whether these people are in a general "converts" category or in a general "former" category? They are both general categories. In terms of widening the scope of the nomination, I am definitely planning to follow up with sibling categories if this goes ahead. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Because the discussion is on merging the convert/former categories into one category even though they are both needed for the reasons stated above, namely that, as you say, "there are people who do not fit a 'converts to' subcategory deeper in the tree" but who would still fit into the "former" category. Since every religion/non-religion has both a "former" category and a "convert" subcategory, removing one or both for only atheism/agnosticism doesn't make sense. You would need to do the same for all religions, ie. merging Category:Converts from Buddhism and Category:Former Buddhists, etc. (That was what I meant by widening the scope of the merge, however, I would actually oppose that too, since it doesn't make sense either.) Relinus (talk) 19:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * until your bracket we seem to agree. I already mentioned I will do a follow-up nomination for all religions if this goes ahead. I do not understand why within the brackets you suddenly jump to a different conclusion. Why doesn't that make sense either? Marcocapelle (talk) 05:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Jurists from Denmark–Norway

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: keep. House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 21:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Jurists from Denmark–Norway to Category:Norwegian jurists
 * Nominator's rationale: Non-defining for the only person in here. Extremely small category with only 1 person, who doesn't have any mention of Denmark–Norway in the text. I urge the category creator to stop making categories that only have one person in them. Mason (talk) 22:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * meanwhile there are 14 articles in the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:39, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle, if the articles are correctly added then I will withdraw my original vote. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:30, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Withdraw. The articles seem to be correct, and the creator of the category didn't seem to remove defining categories in the process. Mason (talk) 12:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Arab businesspeople

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: split as nominated. House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 21:08, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose splitting Category:Arab businesspeople to Category:Asian businesspeople and Category:African businesspeople
 * Nominator's rationale: Yet another Arab category that incorrectly conflates ethnicity with nationality. I am not opposed to the general notion of an Arab businesspeople category, but the current contents are only nationality subcategories and Khadija bint Khuwaylid. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 22:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Split per nom. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Split per nom. This type of categories ignores the fact that there are also Copts, Kurds, etc. In the Middle East. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Split per Marco.Mason (talk) 12:27, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Palestinian bedouins
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 16%23Category:Palestinian bedouins

Category:Shrines dedicated to empress Jingū

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: rename House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:25, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose renaming Category:Shrines dedicated to empress Jingū to Category:Shrines dedicated to Empress Jingū
 * Nominator's rationale: The "e" in "empress" needs to be in capital to bring consistency with the article on Empress Jingū. MOS:JOBTITLE can be used as a guide to determine when such titles need to be in upper case. Keivan.f  Talk 20:51, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Urban development in Ethiopia

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting urban development in ethiopia
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory and there is no tree for Category:Urban development by country. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment: I had used Category:Urban development in India > Category:Urban planning in India as templates when creating these. Gjs238 (talk) 20:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have nominated Category:Urban development in India too. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Video games with expansion packs
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 16%23Category:Video games with expansion packs

Category:Urban projects in Ethiopia

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Urban planning in Ethiopia. House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:27, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting urban projects in ethiopia
 * Nominator's rationale: No such category tree. Merge to Category:Urban planning in Ethiopia Gjs238 (talk) 20:18, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Brainwashing theory proponents
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 16%23Category:Brainwashing theory proponents

Category:Bedouin businesspeople
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 16%23Category:Bedouin businesspeople

Category:Video games based on Fantastic Four films

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Video games based on Marvel Comics films and Category:20th Century Studios video games. House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose merging Category:Video games based on Fantastic Four films to Category:Video games based on the Fantastic Four
 * Nominator's rationale: WP:NARROWCAT, it only contains two articles. Should also be merged into Category:Video games based on Marvel Comics films and Category:20th Century Studios video games. (Oinkers42) (talk) 16:39, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Dual merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Clone High characters
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Clone High characters to Category:Clone High
 * Nominator's rationale: Only one article. Unopposed to a split if more come in the future. (Oinkers42) (talk) 16:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:S.L. Benfica (table tennis)

 * Propose merging splitting Category:S.L. Benfica (table tennis) to Category:S.L. Benfica and Category:S.L. Benfica sportspeople
 * Added on relisting:
 * Propose splitting Category:S.L. Benfica (archery) to Category:S.L. Benfica and Category:S.L. Benfica sportspeople
 * Propose splitting Category:S.L. Benfica (rugby union) to Category:S.L. Benfica and Category:S.L. Benfica sportspeople
 * Propose splitting Category:S.L. Benfica (volleyball) to Category:S.L. Benfica and Category:S.L. Benfica sportspeople
 * Propose splitting Category:S.L. Benfica (handball) to Category:S.L. Benfica and Category:S.L. Benfica non-playing staff


 * Nominator's rationale: Only two articles. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:33, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge No evidence that it can be expanded. Most other subcategories are similarly small and should also be merged. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 02:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Adding small siblings. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Because of WP:SEPARATE, shouldn't the small categories be split between the parent and a new subcat Category:S.L. Benfica sportspeople? – Fayenatic  L ondon 08:51, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure Seems reasonable. Thanks. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:40, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Of cpourse. That would also clear out most of the other small sport subcats for this club. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 16:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * OK. A few countries have precedents for such categories by club (not only by sport), e.g. 4 out of 9 within Category:Sportspeople in Turkey by club or team. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:03, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Relisting comment: Thoughts on GiantSnowman's proposal? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 14:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Split pre revised listing. – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 20:25, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose as suggested. Sorry guys but you have really got the wrong end of the stick here. S.L. Benfica is a PRIMARYTOPIC, referring to the football/soccer club ONLY, and relates to the football/soccer club only. Therefore there should be no merge from other sports into Category:S.L. Benfica or Category:S.L. Benfica non-playing staff (which, again, only relate to football). Instead, we need to create a new category (something like, and merge into there. Having  as a paren category also makes sense. GiantSnowman 20:30, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Merging was a good idea anyway. Possibly to, as GiantSnowman says. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge as per GiantSnowman. No opinion on the target.<span id="Qwerfjkl:1721231242361:WikipediaFTTCLNCategories_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_7" class="FTTCmt"> — Qwerfjkl  talk  15:47, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Mosques by decade 620s-970s
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:39, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Mosques completed in the 620s‎ (4 P) to Category:Religious buildings and structures completed in the 620s and Category:7th-century mosques
 * Propose merging Category:Mosques completed in the 630s‎ (1 P) to Category:Religious buildings and structures completed in the 630s and Category:7th-century mosques
 * Propose merging Category:Mosques completed in the 640s‎ (1 P) to Category:Religious buildings and structures completed in the 640s and Category:7th-century mosques
 * Propose merging Category:Mosques completed in the 670s‎ (1 P) to Category:Religious buildings and structures completed in the 670s and Category:7th-century mosques
 * Propose merging Category:Mosques completed in the 690s‎ (2 P) to Category:Religious buildings and structures completed in the 690s and Category:7th-century mosques
 * Propose merging Category:Mosques completed in the 700s‎ (1 P) to Category:Religious buildings and structures completed in the 700s and Category:8th-century mosques
 * Propose merging Category:Mosques completed in the 720s‎ (2 P) to Category:Religious buildings and structures completed in the 720s and Category:8th-century mosques
 * Propose merging Category:Mosques completed in the 730s‎ (1 P) to Category:Religious buildings and structures completed in the 730s and Category:8th-century mosques
 * Propose merging Category:Mosques completed in the 970s‎ (2 P) to Category:Religious buildings and structures completed in the 970s and Category:10th-century mosques
 * Nominator's rationale: merge, sparsely populated category tree, many decade categories do not exist at all, not the least because exact dates are often unknown. It will become a lot easier to navigate between mosques articles when they are moved to century level. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Do it this seems like a good idea, with no prejudice against splitting again should the numbers change. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 21:09, 8 July 2024 (UTC).


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:WikiProject Colonialism participants
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:35, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting wikiproject colonialism participants
 * Nominator's rationale: WikiProject Colonialism was redirected and is no longer a project or task force. Gonnym (talk) 09:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:18, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep the project should not have been unilaterally redirected. It was tagged inactive, which is good enough, it can be linked to WikiProjects History/Geography etc in a hatnote.  If we really want to emphasise it's status, it can be marked as defunct.  All the best: Rich Farmbrough 12:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC).


 * I have undone the redirect. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 12:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC).


 * Keep for the same reasons as its companion template at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Colonial Empires/Userbox/CEBASICBOX. This was not a unilateral redirect. It was discussed and agreed beforehand at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_History. I'm sorry for the confusion caused by not leaving a proper edit summary – I was redirecting a lot of pages and simply missed this one (the most important!) –&#8239;Joe (talk) 12:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Note also Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 7, Templates_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_7, Templates_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_7, and Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_7. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 09:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No problem. The "inactive" status can be changed to, I think, defunct.  I'm not sure that these should be lumped into History.  Dates was more of a MoS project.  Dacia also involves geography I would have thought.   Colonialism could also be multidisciplinary.  All the best: Rich Farmbrough 21:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC).


 * Delete It's long been established precedent that we don't keep user categories for defunct projects: WP:UCFD/I * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 16:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:WikiProject Dacia participants
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting wikiproject dacia participants
 * Nominator's rationale: WikiProject Dacia was redirected and is no longer a project or task force. Gonnym (talk) 09:50, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. I wonder if the wikiproject might better be redirected to WikiProject Romania instead of WikiProject History. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep for the same reasons as Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Colonial Empires/Userbox/CEBASICBOX, Templates_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_7, Templates_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_7, and Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 7. Although the WikiProjects are gone, these have historical interest. It would have been helpful to bundle these related nominations together or at least link them. And polite to notify the successor wikiproject at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 09:01, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * While MfD tends to like to keep everything under the sun, a category listing participants in a project that isn't active, with users that aren't active, is not useful for anyone. But you do you I guess. Also, batch nominations tend to always lead to a trainwreck. Gonnym (talk) 11:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You don't suppose it'd be useful to someone who wants to know who used to be in the project? –&#8239;Joe (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete It's long been established precedent that we don't keep user categories for defunct projects: WP:UCFD/I. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 16:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Did you keep a copy of Category:Wikipedians in the Cleanup Taskforce ? It might be useful.  All the best: Rich Farmbrough 21:19, 8 July 2024 (UTC).


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Counts of Geneva
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 16%23Category:Counts of Geneva

Category:Pioneers of Israel
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl  talk  15:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting pioneers of israel
 * Nominator's rationale: This seems like it could plausibly renamed, refocused, or deleted. Obviously it's a coherent group, but is it an encyclopedic one as it stands? Remsense  诉  03:14, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Read the Encyclopedia of the Founders and Builders of Israel by David Tidhar. This category is a gold mine of information. It will help numerous people interested in studying the development of the state of Israel. These are the pioneers. Dag21902190 (talk) 03:19, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * A lot of the issue is that "pioneer" is generally a term of adulation. I think at a bare minimum, the name of the category needs to be changed in order to conform with our policy concerning neutral point of view. Remsense  诉  03:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Dag21902190 Another issue is you seem to be treating this category page like it's an article, which is not correct. Remsense  诉  04:09, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Categories are meant to have a summary explaining what is in the category. Dag21902190 (talk) 04:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, a one-sentence summary usually. Remsense  诉  04:17, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Pioneer has a definition, and just like the pioneers of America, these are the pioneers of Israel. It is not a term of adulation. It is a fact. Dag21902190 (talk) 04:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Could you cleanly define it in one sentence for me? Categories are meant to be fairly self-evident: if you need to write an article to fully flesh out your definition, it might not be a good category. It seems like you want to write a list article, which would need to stand up to our policies about verifiability, notability and neutral point of view. Your present prose does not, it is very much adulatory. Remsense 诉  04:14, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * “Pioneers” are people who are among the first to explore or settle what becomes a new country or area. For example, a colonist/colonizer. Just because you interpret the term as adulation, doesn’t make it adulation. Best regards. I deleted the additional summary because of what you said.  Dag21902190 (talk) 04:36, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately that tends to be how language works, as we're talking about the connotations of language.
 * I don't quite understand your definition in any case, as none of the people in the category were among the first to explore or settle what is now Israel. Remsense  诉  09:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you know what a colonizer is? What do we call the first Europeans to settle and develop America? Were they the first people to explore or settle America? Obviously they weren’t. You cannot take a long-used term, and pretend it can’t be applied to the very thing it defines. I hate to break it to you, but you sound like an anti-Israel shill. I understand if English isn’t your first language, but just because you interpret the word “pioneer” as adulation, doesn’t mean it should be changed. Dag21902190 (talk) 13:53, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * None of the people in the category were among the first to explore or settle what is now Israel. Your definition doesn't work, is my point.
 * Correct: it should be changed because it's not just me. As a verb, pioneer absolutely has distinctly positive connotations; some related, more neutral verbs are colonize, settle, construct, and establish. The interplanetary space probe was named Pioneer 6 and not Colonizer 6 or Establisher 6 for a reason, I'm afraid. Remsense  诉  20:57, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It’s very clear that you don’t want the word pioneer being used because you don’t view the early settlers in a positive light. I will maintain, despite your attempt to bring in the naming of a satellite, that pioneer is the correct word to be used. American pioneers weren’t the first to settle America, yet they are defined as pioneers. All you have to do is search up the definition of pioneer on Google, and the first two examples of synonyms are “colonist” and “colonizer”. Your interpretation of the English language does not, and should not, mean you can redefine a word, because you view it as adulation. Dag21902190 (talk) 21:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There's been plenty of ink spilled about how "pioneer" is also wrong in an American context for exactly the same reason. Academic use sharply declined as a result.
 * I also shouldn't have to ask you not to accuse me of behaving in bad faith without a lick of evidence, as I've given you no reason to assume my motives are anything but what I've already said they are: Wikipedia has content policies. Remsense  诉  20:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It’s very clear that you don’t want the word pioneer being used because you don’t view the early settlers in a positive light. I will maintain, despite your attempt to bring in the naming of a satellite, that pioneer is the correct word to be used. American pioneers weren’t the first to settle America, yet they are defined as pioneers. All you have to do is search up the definition of pioneer on Google, and the first two examples of synonyms are “colonist” and “colonizer”. Your interpretation of the English language does not, and should not, mean you can redefine a word, because you view it as adulation. Dag21902190 (talk) 21:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There's been plenty of ink spilled about how "pioneer" is also wrong in an American context for exactly the same reason. Academic use sharply declined as a result.
 * I also shouldn't have to ask you not to accuse me of behaving in bad faith without a lick of evidence, as I've given you no reason to assume my motives are anything but what I've already said they are: Wikipedia has content policies. Remsense  诉  20:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I also shouldn't have to ask you not to accuse me of behaving in bad faith without a lick of evidence, as I've given you no reason to assume my motives are anything but what I've already said they are: Wikipedia has content policies. Remsense  诉  20:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:OVERLAPCAT, redundant as we already have Category:Jews from Ottoman Palestine and Category:Jews from Mandatory Palestine. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Many of the pioneers aren’t in those categories. There is much missing, and this is a separate category for a reason. Dag21902190 (talk) 06:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I checked the first 8 articles and they are all in these categories. If they are not, just add them. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:59, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Why are you misleading people? That is just not true. What’s the real reason for you to want to delete my work? This is the only comprehensive list of its kind. To want to delete this is a spit in the face, and really nonsensical. It has taken hours of work, and is a treasure trove of pioneers. Dag21902190 (talk) 13:56, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You're not entitled to host your work on Wikipedia because you put a lot of work into it, unfortunately. We have content policies. Remsense  诉  16:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That is extremely disingenuous, and anyone who reads this will see it the same way. Denying the benefits of a category like this is just blatant anti-Israel bias. Dag21902190 (talk) 16:52, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * you are misleading people by claiming that I am misleading people. See list below. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:57, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Now do me a favor and look at the other 200 people on the list. It is not exclusive to Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine. To say so would be misleading. Care to explain why you are attacking this category so hard? Dag21902190 (talk) 20:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Case in point would be that 7 of the following 8 people on the list (which you purposely didn’t bring up; choosing to stop at the first 8) are not in the category “Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine” because it doesn’t apply to them. Although they are still pioneers. What’a so hard to understand about that? This is a unique category, different any of the existing categories. Dag21902190 (talk) 20:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Plain nonsense, I have added the next articles too, see below. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:29, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You just combined three or four separate categories. How does that assist your argument? Dag21902190 (talk) 00:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Aaron Aaronsohn is in Category:Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine
 * Sarah Aaronsohn is in Category:Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine
 * Baruch Agadati is in Category:Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine
 * Gershon Agron is in Category:Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine
 * Israel Aharoni is in Category:Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine
 * Abba Ahimeir is in Category:Jews from Mandatory Palestine
 * Akiva Aryeh Weiss is in Category:Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine
 * Yigal Allon is in Category:Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine
 * Binyamin Amirà is in Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine
 * Divsha Amirà is in Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine
 * Zalman Aran is in Category:Jews from Mandatory Palestine
 * Meir Argov is in Category:Jews from Mandatory Palestine
 * Haim Ariav is in Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine
 * Yitzhak Arieli is in Category:Jews from Mandatory Palestine
 * Haim Arlosoroff is in Category:Jewish National Council members
 * Ami Assaf is in Category:Jews from Mandatory Palestine
 * Daniel Auster is in Category:Jews from Mandatory Palestine
 * Genia Averbuch is in Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine


 * Comment Can the scope be simply defined first, before we consider if the category should be retitled, merged, or deleted? I think an issue with the term "pioneer" here is that it can be unclear and may be applied to many individuals that aren't intended. Kingsif (talk) 11:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * And more specifically, can we establish which Jews from Ottoman Palestine and Mandatory Palestine should not be regarded as pioneers? I don't think we can establish that, but let's see what the discussion brings us. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:02, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair point, I would figure that anyone who settled the land between the first Aliyah and the fifth Aliyah should be considered pioneers. However, I think they have to had stayed in the region, developing the budding country. What do you think? Dag21902190 (talk) 21:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So it is going to duplicate Category:Immigrants to Ottoman Palestine and Category:Immigrants to Mandatory Palestine. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Everyone here needs to take a deep breath. This is Wikipedia. Accusing people of anti-XYZ bias or destroying hard work is unproductive and does nothing to strengthen your point. With that out of the way, there is clear consensus that this category needs to change. Whether that change is in the form of deletion or not is to be determined (hence relisting), but if it is kept we need a defined scoped and potentially a better name. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 05:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Follow-up nomination see Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_June_30. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Call them pioneers or call them settlers, it remains unclear who else than Jews from Ottoman Palestine and Jews from Mandatory Palestine would fit here. It remains a matter of strong overlap. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What you fail to recognise is the benefit of creating more-specific categories. There is clearly something to gain by breaking up the immigration into the different Aliyot. It makes research more easy, and more makingful. It also puts these notable figures into the context of their immigration. Different Aliyot had different success levels, which I am sure impacted the development of these people. Regardless, it just seems to be an attempt to delete something specific, in order to overgeneralise and keep them hidden in a broad list of thousands of people. I’m trying to make it easier for people to do research on the topic. Dag21902190 (talk) 14:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is not the nomination about the different Aliyot. We have that discussion somewhere else. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * My apologies, I got confused since you have multiple fronts opened against me. That itself is testament to your targeting.
 * Thanks, Joe Shmo. I hope there are other people with your clarity of mind. I know there are, but they must not be able to see this discussion. Dag21902190 (talk) 16:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Dag21902190 I've removed their comment. They were alerted to the ARBPIA restrictions before making it. Doug Weller  talk 11:05, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You removed Joe Shmo’s comment? Why? Dag21902190 (talk) 14:09, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Dag21902190 Because they haven't reached the threshold where they can post on the topic, 500 edits and 30 days.. Doug Weller  talk 14:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * could you please do the same in this other discussion? Thank you. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:12th-century Almohad caliphs
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

–<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 12:51, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose merging category to Category:Almohad caliphs, Category:12th-century caliphs, and Category:12th-century monarchs in Africa
 * Propose merging category to Category:Almohad caliphs, Category:13th-century caliphs, and Category:13th-century monarchs in Africa
 * Nominator's rationale: Recommended by in Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_June_11:

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  12:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 01:48, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Triple merge per my reasoning above. Thanks LP! NLeeuw (talk) 16:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose, the merge will result in 10 articles directly in Category:13th-century caliphs while they have something more specific in common. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:02, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Triple merge. The important thing is that the Almohad caliph category includes these 14 entries and no others, and dividing that category further by 2 centuries doesn't seem necessary.  Jo e J Sh mo 💌 10:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Green Party of England and Wales donors
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete House Blaster  (talk · he/they) 02:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting green party of england and wales donors
 * Nominator's rationale: Donating to a political party is rarely if ever defining. There is only one article in the category. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  01:42, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete.  Jo e J Sh mo 💌 10:30, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:18th century in Mozambique
Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 17%23Category:18th century in Mozambique