Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 March 27

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Category:E7 (countries)

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) House Blaster  (talk · he/him) 01:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting e7 (countries)
 * Nominator's rationale: Delete or merge. The main article was deleted. The subcategory is enough. -- MikutoH talk! 23:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete See Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_March_30 for the subcategory. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 12:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:United Football League (2009–2012) venues by team

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) House Blaster  (talk · he/him) 21:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting united football league (2009–2012) venues by team
 * Propose deleting florida tuskers stadiums
 * Propose deleting hartford colonials stadiums
 * Propose deleting las vegas locomotives stadiums
 * Propose deleting new york sentinels stadiums
 * Propose deleting omaha nighthawks stadiums
 * Propose deleting sacramento mountain lions stadiums
 * Propose deleting virginia destroyers stadiums}
 * Nominator's rationale: The league is defunct, the categories are small, and they are all already in Category:United Football League (2009–2012) venues. User:Namiba 14:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:03, 28 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Members of the Philippine House of Representatives

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) House Blaster  (talk · he/him) 14:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting members of the philippine house of representatives
 * Nominator's rationale: Duplicate category; see Category:Members of the House of Representatives of the Philippines. Either way, we don't categorize representatives directly to categories such as this. Howard the Duck (talk) 11:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Savannah Bananas players

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting savannah bananas players
 * Nominator's rationale: The Savannah Bananas are an exhibition barnstorming team. USA Today says to [t]hink of them like the Harlem Globetrotters, but for baseball. These notable individuals who are now categorized as playing for them did so as a one-time stunt. They do not "play" for the team. The few articles I've spot checked make no mention of their Bananas "tenure". This is a non-defining characteristic. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:27, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. I agree, its a non-defining characteristic if these players appeared only once or twice as a publicity stunt. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Don't Delete only remove those that appeared a few times. They have full-time players though and the category should not be deleted. Batgirl-Awsomeness (talk) 00:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * which articles are about full-time players? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Marcocapelle, I don't think any of them are. Checking the current roster, (Template:Savannah Bananas roster navbox) the regular players don't have articles. It is very likely all of the players in the category were one-off publicity appearences since all of them are retired MLB players. Omnis Scientia (talk) 11:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Ryan Kellog he is #49 for the Bananas Batgirl-Awsomeness (talk) 17:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The Savannah Bananas used to be a collegiate summer league team in the Coastal Plain League. This is defining for those players. However, the team eventually became an exhibition team, which is generally not defining for most of the players. I think we need purge those who made singular appearances but keep the category. Look at the articles in the category and you will see plenty of non-exhibition players.--User:Namiba 18:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The question are they full-time players? Like do they regularly play like they would with a Major League team? I checked a few articles at random and it doesn't even mention they played with the team. One ex-major leaguer appeared in a few games in 2022 but not beyond that.
 * (Also, don't confuse the players for Savannah Sand Gnats as regular players for the Savannah Bananas. On a quick glance, it may seem like its the same team but the latter is a minor league team). Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Rylan Bannon and Cade Marlowe are two players whose articles indicate that they played for the collegiate league team. More research is needed for the others in the category.--User:Namiba 12:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It is akin to the better known Category:Cape Cod Baseball League and is definitely defining.--User:Namiba 13:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  10:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, the team is notable per references at its page, and its players, if they have an article, certainly rate a categorization. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Nazis in the United States

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: containerise. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  10:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting nazis in the united states
 * Nominator's rationale: Not a notable list. The sub-categories are notable due to criminal or treasonous behavior. Additional members will appear to be guilty by association. Johnjbarton (talk) 16:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:31, 19 March 2024 (UTC) Relisting comment: Delete? Containerise? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  10:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Containerize (do not delete), the articles directly in this category are about people who may have been Nazi symphatisants, but that was mainly before they migrated to the United States. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I assume "containerize" means using Container_category? What happens when an editor adds the category to an article? Johnjbarton (talk) 17:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Then everyone can revert that, preferably with a reference in the edit summary to the containerization discussion if there was any. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your explanation. This solution then creates an ongoing maintenance issue that would not occur if we delete the category. Is there any notable reason to keep the category? Johnjbarton (talk) 18:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not much different in maintenance than everyone being able to recreate a deleted category and everyone else being able to get it deleted again as G4. Having said that, I doubt if the two smaller subcategories are appropriate (one nominated above) and if they don't stay there isn't any reason to keep Category:Nazis in the United States after all. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Lean containerise. I can live with helping with the maintenance if that's the only barrier. Mason (talk) 19:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

English-language Bahamian films
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl  talk  17:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting english-language bahamian films
 * Propose deleting english-language irish films
 * Propose deleting english-language scottish films
 * Propose deleting english-language welsh films
 * Nominator's rationale: Per longstanding stated criteria on precedents Category:English-language singers and Category:Songs in English, English-language categories should be excluded for countries where English is the majority language. The Bahamian category includes 100% of the articles about Bahamian films, making it pointless. The others may be a little more useful since they are siblings of, , and , but as the the majority of the output from those countries is in English, I believe the English-language categories should be deleted as WP:OVERLAPCAT. Note that Irish, Scottish and Welsh have been explicitly excluded from the singers and songs categories since 2012.  – Fayenatic  L ondon 11:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:35, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:35, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Partial oppose. While I understand and can support the rationale to delete the Category:English-language Bahamian films cat (where, per nom, there is/should be 100% overlap with the parent category and, seemingly, no members/cats for Bahamian films in other languages), I can't support the rest. And oppose deletion of Category:English-language Irish films in particular. Fundamentally, I don't agree with the argument that "English-language categories should be excluded for countries where English is the majority language". I mean, English is a majority language in Canada (where 86% can speak English, 30% French, with bilingual overlaps), and yet I don't think anyone would suggest that Category:English-language Canadian films is superfluous. Per nom's own note, these categories have a use (including in categorising Category:Irish films by language). Otherwise, on its own, "English-language cats are [always] superfluous in countries where majority speak English" isn't an argument I can get behind... Guliolopez (talk) 10:06, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  10:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The oppose does not really address WP:OVERLAPCAT, these categories largely overlap with the whole tree of their parent. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:26, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Minor league coaches
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl  talk  17:31, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Jamestown Expos coaches to Category:Minor league baseball coaches
 * Propose merging Category:Bakersfield Blaze coaches to Category:Minor league baseball coaches
 * Nominator's rationale: This is a revisioned version of a previous Cfd related to Minor league coaches. These particular teams are defunct now and have only one and two articles respectively in them. Propose upmerging these two to the parent category. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:35, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose as it would break the scheme and eliminate them from a category connection with the team.--User:Namiba 18:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  10:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I do not understand the oppose because Category:Jamestown Expos and Category:Bakersfield Blaze do not exist, so nothing breaks. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Namiba, precisely the point. These have one and two articles each and don't have a bigger tree like Category:Staten Island Yankees. Since they are no-longer-extant teams with three articles combined, I don't see the point in keeping them. Omnis Scientia (talk) 16:41, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * What I mean is that by deleting the team coaches category, there will no longer be any category linking them to that team. If there were a, for example, I would support merging to that and the minor league coaches category.--User:Namiba 11:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Christianity in Austria-Hungary
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) House Blaster  (talk · he/him) 14:00, 3 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose deleting christianity in austria-hungary
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. There is no Category:Religion in Austria-Hungary as a potential merge target. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per nom Mason (talk) 00:08, 30 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Griffith family
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete, but for real :) (non-admin closure) House Blaster  (talk · he/him) 21:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting Category:Griffith family
 * Nominator's rationale: This category is supposed to have already been deleted but wasn't. Yours6700 (talk) 07:10, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Procedural comment, the category wasn't tagged back then, nor was it now. I just tagged it after all. A category won't be deleted by the bot if the page has not been tagged. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per Yours6700's original reasoning, which still applies to the category now. QuietHere (talk &#124; contributions) 02:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per original CfD. Probably was just a technical issue. -- Lenticel ( talk ) 02:17, 29 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Family businesses of Germany
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: merge (non-admin closure) House Blaster  (talk · he/him) 21:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Propose merging Category:Family businesses of Germany to Category:Family-owned companies of Germany
 * Nominator's rationale: Per others in category -  C HAMPION  (talk) (contributions) (logs) 06:55, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Merge or reverse merge, overlapping scope. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Nazis who died by suicide in the United States
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: manual merge to Category:Nazis who died by suicide. (non-admin closure)  Qwerfjkl  talk  17:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose deleting nazis who died by suicide in the united states
 * Nominator's rationale: delete, partially trivial intersection (if their suicide was unrelated to being a Nazi), partially a very narrow intersection (while Category:Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody should suffice). Marcocapelle (talk) 18:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per nom Mason (talk) 22:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support as nominated Johnjbarton (talk) 02:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose The list is of at least minor historical interest. It may not be something a large number of people would be interested in, but remember that "Wikipedia is not paper" and we are not forced to prioritize and choose between one article/list over another because we have virtually unlimited space, unlike a traditional paper encyclopedia. If the list doesn't contain any irreconcilably incorrect information or other serious issue that can't be fixed then what is the point of deleting it? I can think of plenty of potential reasons why someone may be interested to see the information the list provides.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl  talk  21:28, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, the logic behind "partially trivial intersection (if their suicide was unrelated to being a Nazi)" could also apply to other articles, for example, List of suicides of LGBT people if their suicide was unrelated to their being LGBT. Vontheri (talk) 14:44, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I just wanted to point out that the two "support" votes are both basically just WP:PERX (one is even exactly word-for-word "per nom"). I'm the only one other than the nominator (so far, at least) who has actually given any real argument. Vontheri (talk) 22:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Vontheri, If the rationale provided in a comment includes a comprehensive argument, specific policy references and/or a compelling presentation of evidence in favour of keeping or deletion, an endorsement of that argument may be sufficient. (Example: "Delete per nom. I find their argument that such and such policy is not met compelling")<span id="Qwerfjkl:1710883695699:WikipediaFTTCLNCategories_for_discussion/Log/2024_March_11" class="FTTCmt">— Qwerfjkl  talk  21:28, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * @Qwerfjkl I was told in another discussion that my "keep" comment was invalid based on WP:PERX because I said something like "keep, for the reasons given above by [another editor]". The [other editor] certainly gave a specific argument for keeping the pertinent article. So, that made me think that any vote with a reason given as similar to "per nom" was invalid. I don't want to start a tangent here, but this policy (like so many others) seems to be inconsistently interpreted and inconsistently enforced.
 * Regardless, to be on topic, my opinion on the deletion of this list remains oppose for the reasons as I already stated.Vontheri (talk) 22:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Vontheri, There is a difference between supporting a nomination as compared to agreeing with something that a non-nominator has added to the discussion. In the first case, supporting is effectively saying I find the basis of this nomination reasonable, and I do not wish to write a lot to effectively say what you have already said.
 * Moreover, there have been several other nominations supporting the fact that the intersection between suicide, political orientation, and location isn't defining, with extremely rare exception. [ Categories for discussion/Log/2024 January 11] Mason (talk) 01:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd also like to state that I do not think that the comparison between the page:"List of suicides of LGBT people " and the category Category:Nazis who died by suicide in the United States is a fair comparison.
 * 1) categories are not lists.
 * 2) even if we were to hold this list to the same standard, there is a long history of literature on the fact that the intersection between sexual orientation and suicide is defining, there is not for the intersection of nazism, suicide, and suicide in the united states.
 * 3) it is worth noting that the question is whether the intersection of the three, is defining, not merely whether nazism and suicide is defining.
 * 4) LGBT is an EGRS category, while being a Nazi is not, so I find this entire line of comparison troubling.
 * Mason (talk) 01:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Unless you happened to be a rocket scientist who only became a Nazi to 'advance his career' (which, of course, is a totally acceptable reason for joining the Nazi party. How else can you continue your life-long ambition of making huge explosions? /sarcasm), then execution, imprisonment, managing to create a new false identity, or suicide are generally the outcomes faced by those who were at least greater than low-ranking Nazis during WW2. Note that the leader of the Nazi party himself died by suicide, as did most of the other highest-ranking party members. So, yes, there definitely is an intersection between being a Nazi and suicide, and this has been documented numerous times over. Here are three of many potential examples:, and
 * Is there an intersection of the three that includes the United States? Let's look a bit more closely at the individual entrants in the category. With one exception (Petras Polekauskas), all of the entrants either do not say the circumstances of their suicide or the relevant person either committed suicide while being prosecuted for their Nazi activities or while incarcerated, again, for their Nazi activities. So it does seem to me like there is an intersection between the three, and given that not all (or even most) of them were actually in prison when they ended their lives, moving them all to Category: Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody would not suffice. There is enough historical relevancy to keep the category, certainly more historical relevancy than this category: Category:Farmers who died by suicide (and I'm not proposing a purge, by the way)
 * Perhaps creating a new category called "Nazis who died by suicide by country" would be the best path forward, and then merging Category:Nazis who died by suicide in the United States" into it. As I mentioned before, "Category:Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody" is not sufficient.
 * By the way, what do you mean by "4) LGBT is an EGRS category, while being a Nazi is not, so I find this entire line of comparison troubling."? Because both LGBT and Nazism are political and "touchy" subjects, in rather opposite directions? Can we please use logic and reason and avoid emotions clouding our judgements while building an encyclopedia? And it seems EGRS categories were created for a somewhat opposite reason than implied, not as "protection" categories, but to avoid censorship.
 * I virtually never say anything personal about myself on Wikipedia (for an explanation of why, please see my user page), but I will make an exception one time because I feel I've been misunderstood: I lost one of my closest friends I've ever had about ten years ago now to suicide, and one of the largest reasons for his suicide was because he was gay and his family did not know and he feared that they would have a strongly negative reaction if they found out. So I'm not throwing around comparisons between LGBT suicide and Nazi suicides in the way I sense you are implying by "I find this entire line of comparison troubling." I intend to practice the Socratic Method at all times during discussions. That doesn't mean I'm perfect but it is my intent. I intentionally separate collective emotion of society from logic when engaging in "disputes" (I would say "arguments", but fear it would me misinterpreted, as I intend the old, original Socratic meaning of the word "argument") and, hoping I don't sound immodest, but I have been told that I have a gift for dealing with "heavy subjects" in an objective way.
 * An unrelated issue I found: "Michael Popczuk" redirects to a list that doesn't include or even mention him. I've made a post about it on the relevant talk page. Vontheri (talk) 20:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC) Vontheri (talk) 20:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * So I don't have the bandwidth to unpack your wall of text. But I will say two more things. 1) No one is disputing that the intersection between nazism and suicide is defining. But, there's no need to diffuse by location of suicide. 2.a) my use of EGRS is to make it clear that these categories are very different. One is a historically marginalized group oppressed by the Nazis, and the other is well, Nazis. So I think this attempt to make a subject less heavy falls flat. For me personally, I find the conversation more heavy when marginalized communities are involved (regardless of whether I am a member of that community). 2.b) I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Mason (talk) 01:27, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I write the length of text necessary to come as close as possible to adequately describing the concepts and ideas in my head. That is an impossible task, as language is much simpler than human thought, but I certainly don't write at length to attempt to create a "wall of text". (it really wasn't that long, and calling it a "wall of text" is a bit demeaning to the effort and thought I put into writing it, but anyway...)
 * I think the "heaviness" of a topic is a hindrance to objectively creating an encyclopedia, which, as a defining feature of [nearly all] encyclopedias, neutrality and objectivity should be at the absolute core. Why should the oppression or oppressor status of a group of people have anything to do with whether or not we document their suicides or other traits/actions? We should attempt to put aside our personal views or the views of society at large and use the pursuit of truth as a guide. I look to Socrates as a role model in this respect, although he did lose me quite a bit when he tried to justify his own execution.
 * But, if the heaviness of LGBT suicide cannot be overcome, then, as I already mentioned, what about replacing my use of the LGBT suicide category with the category "Category:Farmers who died by suicide" or "Category:Artists who died by suicide, with nearly the same arguments applied? For example, is it a trivial intersection if their suicide had nothing to do with being a farmer or nothing to do with being an artist? I assume the answer is "no"? So why would it be a trivial intersection in the case of Nazis?
 * To summarize: We should neutrally document reality. Many Nazis died by suicide. Not all Nazi suicides occurred while that person was in prison, thus the category "Category:Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody" is insufficient. I would be fine with removing this category of Nazi suicides in the United States if it is replaced by a new category called something like "Nazi suicides by country", which is surely of interest to researches of history, but, although it would make things a bit less convenient for some readers, a category simply called "Nazis who died by suicide" would be acceptable in my opinion. But, perhaps my most important point here: having only "Category:Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody" is absolutely not sufficient as not all Nazis who died by suicide committed their suicide in prison custody!
 * My proposal at this point: delete this category, but *ONLY* if it is replaced by a new category called something like "Category:Nazis who died by suicide by country" or simply "Category:Nazis who died by suicide", given that "Category:Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody" is insufficient on its own for the reasons I have given. *OTHERWISE* If it is not replaced after deletion, then my vote is simply "keep". Vontheri (talk) 05:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * No one was disputing the need for a category for nazis who died by suicide. That category already exists. You were the one who brought LGBT suicides into the conversation, making the conversation much heavier than necessary.
 * In response to your question: "Why should the oppression or oppressor status of a group of people have anything to do with whether or not we document their suicides or other traits/actions?" You had asked me why I found the comparison troubling.
 * I would strongly encourage you to reconsider using LGBT people as your counter arguments to Nazis. That comparison comes with A LOT OF BAGGAGE, especially when your talking to people from the LGBT community. Mason (talk) 00:36, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: What are people's thoughts on the most recent proposal to transform this into Category:Nazis who died by suicide (which could contain the articles in the current category, Category:Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody, and any other Nazis who died by suicide)? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster  (talk · he/him) 02:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Despite my seemingly clear memory of previously searching for it, somehow I hadn't even noticed that "Nazis who died by suicide" was already a category. I must be having some sort of Mandella effect moment going on here... So my proposal may have been slightly different had I been aware that the category already existed.
 * Regardless, If others support that proposal, I'm wondering what people suggest should happen with the subcategories "Category:Nazis who died by suicide in Germany" and "Category:Nazis who died by suicide in Austria‎", as well as the other subcategories listed in Category:Nazis who died by suicide? My view would be keep them as they are, and if consensus is against keeping Category:Nazis who died by suicide in the United States, then simply add those names to the category "Nazis who died by suicide" without adding to a subcategory, unless of course the individual also fits with another subcategory, such as "Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody".
 * (Also, not especially relevant to the current discussion, but how exactly are we defining "Nazi" for the purpose of these lists/categories? Is it limited only to people who were members of the German Nazi Party during during and/or prior to WW2, or are we including "Neo-Nazis"? What about former Nazis who renounced their Nazi beliefs but still later died by suicide? I certainly assume we are not including Fascists, which is so often erroneously used as a synonym for "Nazi". While they are both related and share many similarities, they are still distinct far-right political ideologies with defining differences.) Vontheri (talk) 04:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Manually merging to Category:Nazis who died by suicide is a good idea (of course only insofar articles aren't already in Category:Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody). The German and Austrian sibling are troublesome too, especially since Austria was incorporated in Germany during WWII, I would rather disperse the articles between Category:Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody and a new Category:Nazis who died by suicide in World War II.
 * Adding Neo-Nazis in this category tree would be weird because the whole point here is people escaping their trial or imprisonment for what they did in WWII. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I wasn't proposing to add neo-nazis, just creating an open question for of thinking for exactly how we should define "Nazi" for the sake of these categories.
 * The problem with having there only be the two lists, one "Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody" and "Nazis who died by suicide in World War II" is that there are also Nazis who died from suicide who committed their suicide after (sometimes long after) WWII and also were not in prison custody when they committed suicide. They didn't all commit suicide for the reasons of escaping trial or imprisonment (or, at the time, execution). That was a common reason, but certainly not the only reason. Some were so deeply indoctrinated into the Nazi ideology that they saw no hope for a future life in a post-war world in which the Nazis lost the war. There was even a wave of suicide among German civilians after the war ended, as well, and they were certainly not people under threat of trial or imprisonment. (See the two references I gave earlier in the discussion written by Christian Goeschel for more information about this.) So having only those two categories would leave out some notable people, for just one example, see: Petras_Polekauskas. Petras Polekauskas died by suicide but was neither in prison custody nor was his suicide during or even shortly after the war, but was just over 20 years after the war ended. Vontheri (talk) 09:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Articles that would fall in neither of the two categories could still remain in Category:Nazis who died by suicide. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were proposing to not have that category anymore "Category:Nazis who died by suicide" and to only have the two categories "Category:Nazis who died by suicide in prison custody" and " Category:Nazis who died by suicide in World War II". I think I would be fine with something similar to what you are proposing; but I see a couple issues that would need to be sorted out first:
 * First we would need to determine exactly when a start and end date for "World War II" would be. Are we defining WW2 as ending when Germany surrendered on May 8, 1945, or are we extending to when the entire war ended (ie. September 2, 1945, when Japan surrendered)? The latter definition isn't especially relevant to this context, as we are talking about Germans and not Japanese, and the former definition has the problem that the primary wave of suicides occurred during a period that overlapped with the date of May 8, 1945. Some of the relevant suicides were just before May 8th when defeat of Germany seemed inevitable, but others of the relevant suicides occurred after May 8th after defeat was official. For example, Heinrich Himmler died by suicide after May 8th. Vontheri (talk) 01:54, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * So effectively, upmerge the category to Category:Nazis who died by suicide? I'm fine with that. Mason (talk) 00:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't exactly understand what "upmerge" means in this context. Can you elaborate, please? Vontheri (talk) 06:55, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It means that the contents of this category would be added to the parent category (Category:Nazis who died by suicide), and then Category:Nazis who died by suicide in the United States would be deleted. Mason (talk) 19:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Memorials to A. K. Fazlul Huq
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was: delete. This one gave me a chuckle :) (non-admin closure) House Blaster  (talk · he/him) 13:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Propose renaming Category:Memorials to A. K. Fazlul Huq to Category:Monuments and memorials to A. K. Fazlul Huq
 * Nominator's rationale: Most of these pages don't belong in this category. Sher-e-Bangla National Cricket Stadium is a stadium, not a monument or memorial. Purge the category, and if there are sufficient contents, then rename as proposed. Mason (talk) 00:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Support in principle per nom. The nomination is very carefully phrased, one may also simply say "delete per WP:SHAREDNAME". Marcocapelle (talk) 06:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Lol, I forgot that existed Mason (talk) 00:37, 30 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.