Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 34

Jorge Bechara
This article reads like a resume and seems in serious need of an overhaul (and it's been that way for almost a year). It may be an autobiography, based on the similarity of username to subject. (I imagine that IP editors in the range 58.178 are likely the same user.) I came upon the article through OTRS, clearing use for an image. I've tagged it for a POV check and will notify the contributor of our COI guidelines, but wanted to list it here in case somebody had time and opportunity to look it over. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm. A new WP:SPA came in and removed the tag, possibly inadvertently? I've restored it. Back to copyright matters. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:18, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the user is the subject of the article, based on the fact that the apparent self-portrait that appears in the article was taken by Georgebech. Rees11 (talk) 20:40, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I removed some fluff but was reverted. Added COI and refimprove tags. Rees11 (talk) 22:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I've placed a COI template on the anon's talk page as well (and added 58.178.73.241 to the list of parties above). Askari Mark (Talk) 03:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

All of the IP addresses appear to be part of the same dynamic address pool under .dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au. So it's possible they are all the same user getting a different IP address every time they connect. Rees11 (talk) 12:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Um, yeah ... I got distracted from my computer for a while and forgot what had already been written about that. I removed the note above; as for the talk page, maybe he'll come across it in three more years. Pardon me while I go find a wet trout for self-abuse. :( Askari Mark (Talk) 03:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One of the 58.178.* IPs left a talk comment at Moonriddengirl's page, which is the first time ever that this editor has engaged in talk. I am leaving a note for about the discussion here to see if we can get his attention. Though the article is tagged for POV, it looks like it could be fixed without much work. The sequence of edits by the IP suggests he may be getting the message about our policies. EdJohnston (talk) 01:35, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't find any reliable sources for what appears to be an autobiography so I have listed it at AfD here. Smartse (talk) 22:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

We deliberately chose a username similar to what was to be our first wiki edit/creation. The subject attracted our interest through the mentioned international media publications and institutions. The included information and images are from Foreign Correspondent's Association and Art Gallery of New South Wales, which we regarded as reliable sources. Understanding the issues discussed on this page we’re trying to fix the article hoping that it's a valid initial contribution. Georgebech (talk) 13:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The Prince Yung D


See this discussion. THE AMERICAN METROSEXUAL 20:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Susan Singleton

 * was created by and is being edited by ... clear conflict of interest.  Teapot  george Talk  21:55, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I tagged it COI, but I would also question notability. Rees11 (talk) 00:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Article is now at Afd. I have reported the user to WP:UAA. – ukexpat (talk) 19:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Ray Dotoratos
Hi folks. I could use some help with Ray Dotoratos, which is a clear WP:COI and WP:BLP problem. I don't know for certain it is an autobiography, but the author is aggressively removing my requests for sources, and my attempts to engage him on his talk page have only produced a stream of insults and reverts. By the way, Mr. Dotoratos gets very few google hits, so the issue of notability may also be relevant. Thank you for any assistance, Antandrus (talk) 04:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Subject is not notable as far as I can tell. The few news hits that come up are just listings of scheduled performances. Given the promotional text, COI, lack of notability, and absence of sources, it's almost a speedy deletion candidate, certainly AfD. Rees11 (talk) 18:02, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably a COI, but I'd say delete the article in AfD and deal with his other behavior through normal channels when needed. --  At am a chat 20:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Rockstar (drink)

 * - active at Rockstar (drink), appears to be very strongly connected with the company, which has had some recent controversy. Among other things, user is pushing an astroturfing website. Apart from constantly reverting/editing, is there anything else that can or should be done? Perhaps someone else could keep an eye on it at least. Disembrangler (talk) 19:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I am trying to add correct information about the company. Wikipedia was designed to give information about topics and not be used as a trashing ground for political mudslinging. Information on this page is misleading and not entirely correct plus information that I have added that is correct and relevant to the company is being erased as to push other people's agenda. We have no problems with people talking about what has happened but we want it to be correct and be able to share good facts about the company. 56ghyv842851654 (talk) 23 June 2009


 * Please read WP:SPAM, there is a huge difference between an encyclopedic article and an advertisement masquerading as an article. – ukexpat (talk) 19:53, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Information i provided was about the events that Rockstar has sponsored and of the factual information regarding the Company. At no point was i soliciting. This is an article about the company and i provided information about the company. So this does not qualify as spam. 56ghyv842851654 (talk) 23 June 2009


 * It may not have been your intention, but that was the way it read. Filling an article about a company with minute detail about its activities can give the impression of being promotional and is also not very encyclopedic. – ukexpat (talk) 20:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Doesn't this interesting slip basically say all that need be said? Quaeler (talk) 20:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Good catch, and of course single-purpose and shared accounts are not permitted. – ukexpat (talk) 20:38, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Then let me ask what information is considered valid? Wikipedia cannot be a trash site. Rockstar is entitled to have valid information about the company. This cannot be a trash site. The other articles about the boycott are also fall into COI yet those articles are allowed to remain. There is more to the company story then this boycott but for some reason only the boycott information is allowed to stay. There is a abuse of COI right there. 56ghyv842851654 (talk) 20:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If I publish a add-on to the article here, can we agree on it before I publish it to the site? 56ghyv842851654 (talk) 23 June 2009


 * The best place to do that is the article's talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 21:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Due to the inherent conflict of interest issues with a shared account created by the marketing department of a company, I have shut down (indef blocked) the user above. I have invited them to create a new, individual account, disclose their relationship with Rockstar on their user page and here, and participate preferably by discussing on the article talk page.
 * I am also going to go look at the article in more depth to review the concerns they are raising here. Just because their first response was not entirely appropriate does not mean that their article concerns are not necessarily valid.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Cindy Cohen


Paid spamming, see 1 2 3, 4 and 5. I've handed out my standard advert4im/coi for paid adverts, but what do we do with the article? MER-C 06:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The job listing says, "Article should adhere to all of Wikipedia's guidelines." Maybe inform the subject that the article doesn't meet guidelines and she shouldn't pay? Rees11 (talk) 11:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest that the Cindy Cohen article be nominated for deletion. She has a film credit for Soulkeeper, a made-for-TV movie where she played a role called Green-Eyed Girl. Our article on the film doesn't mention her name. Similarly the IMDB entry for the film doesn't include her. It does not sound that she would meet WP:BIO, unless our article is missing something important about her. EdJohnston (talk) 22:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am going to go ahead and nominate for deletion. --Leivick (talk) 22:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

David Jay Brown and Carolyn Mary Kleefeld
Since April the main editor has been whose edits have mainly been to this article and to Carolyn Mary Kleefeld, an article created in April by  who has also edited this article 3 times. The article was tagged for potential coi in May but the tag was removed today by the IP. The IP geolocates to an area near where the two subjects seem to live (not together so far as I can tell but they do seem to know each other). I'll replace the tag. Dougweller (talk) 12:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Both of them are written as resumes and are full of peacocking. I don't doubt the COI at all. I've noted some additional concerns on each article's talk page, but boy those articles are a mess. --  At am a chat 23:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Amway, Quixtar and other MLM articles

 * - This editor is a self-described "paid editor" one whose edits seem primarily dedicated to defending the reputation of MLM operations; he admits to operating pro-MLM websites, and has been accused of being a paid shill for them. Orange Mike   &#x007C;   Talk  19:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Where has he called himself a "paid editor"?   Will Beback    talk    20:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering this too. He denied it twice in the ACN Inc. talk page. At the same time, his own talk page hints that he's somehow affiliated with Amway (he cites facts about himself that are meant to contrast stereotypes about Amway). --  At am a chat 23:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd have to search back, but I recall his professional connection with Amway has been discussed before. He's also a topic of disucssion on non-Wiki, anti-Amway forums.   Will Beback    talk    23:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In 2007 he wrote:
 * To be clear I don't make money from N21 or Quixtar, I do make money from Amway, I just have not been actively involved as an Amway IBO for sometime... []
 * FWIW, Quixtar has changed its name back to "Amway".   Will Beback    talk    23:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Here is his quote: "Excuse me, but may think you can lie all you want about anything here, but I do not appreciate lies being spread about me. I am categorically NOT paid to promote MLM companies (or any particular MLM company) - that is utterly false." --  At am a chat 05:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

ACN Inc.

 * , lots of insider and self-interested editing, both pro and con. Independent review needed. Thatcher 11:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See "Amway, Quixtar and other MLM articles" above. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  14:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Wigan Warriors


Wigan Warriors are a notable sports team, but, well, if the above user's very name doesn't tip anyone off, s/he has been adding promotional and non-neutral information to the article by the minute without actually backing it up with any sources. I placed a uw-coi tag on his/her talk page, but s/he doesn't seem to care (especially since the coi tag I placed on the article's page was removed twice). THE AMERICAN METROSEXUAL 21:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it would be best for the user to familiarise himself with Wikipedia's core guidelines by joining a WikiProject. I notice the user hasn't yet joined WikiProject Rugby league. Editing in collaboration with more experienced users on pages other than those relating to the Wigan Warriors may improve user's contributions and attitude towards other editors. I'll send an invite to the user. GW  (talk)  10:44, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Dislecksia: The Movie


Worth a check for neutrality: editor name matches movie's director. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 08:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Marc H. Tanenbaum
I am a new wikipedia editor so I need a lot of advice! I have been reading the wikipedia guidelines on Conflict of Interest, Neutral Point of View and Copyrights. I recently tried to edit the page of Marc H. Tanenbaum who is the namesake of the Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding, where I am an intern. I have been told that in having “Tanenbaum” as my user name and in being an intern here it is a conflict of interest for me to edit this page. However, I believe that I am capable of editing and expanding the biography of this great man without losing neutrality or advocating for the organization I work for. I tired editing the page and inserting information from a book that was written and published about Rabbi Tanenbaum. (I have been given permission to use this copyrighted information from the publisher).

If I am not breaking copyright rules, because I have permission to use this information can I add information to Rabbi Tanenbaum’s biography? And if I am not actively advocating for the Tanenbaum Center’s cause but simply editing and expanding Rabbi Tanenbaum’s biography will information from a reliable published source will I be allowed to make edits?

Help, please! Tanenbaum (talk) 17:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC) — Tanenbaum (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * In one clause (" the biography of this great man"), you've inadvertently demonstrated why we so fervently discourage editors with conflicts of interest from editing articles. With the best good will in the world, it's incredibly hard for you to maintain the requisite neutral point of view to edit this article. Sorry. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  17:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Even if you can get over the COI issues, the copyvio issue remains. With respect, we have only your word that you are who you say you are and that you have permission to use copyright material on Wikipedia. That's why we have a formal process for releasing copyright material for use here and that's set out at WP:IOWN. – ukexpat (talk) 17:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I am going through the formal process of getting copyright permission right now-once that process is complete then I can legally use the information within Wikipedia's guidelines, is that correct? Tanenbaum (talk) 18:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC) — Tanenbaum (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Yes, but (and it's a significant but), your edits must still comply with our WP:NPOV requirements and all other policies and guidelines. By its very nature, material from the website probably isn't neutral. Because of your COI, I strongly recommend that you discuss your proposed changes on the article's talk page first. – ukexpat (talk) 19:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin
Just so you know, I reverted a sequence of edits to my article at Arthur Rubin which contained clear libel. It's possible that some of the other edits in the sequence were consistent with Wikipeida policies and guidelines, but references to cockfighting are clearly inappropriate. If an uninvolved editor wishes to restore the parts of the anon's edit which are in keeping with guidelines, go ahead. I also noted this on Talk:Arthur Rubin, but I believe that self-reporting here seems the best bet in keeping with the guidelines. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:56, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The IP who made the 'cockfighting' edit appears to be a vandal-only account. I've given then a 24-hour timeout to reflect on the problem of accuracy in BLP articles. Once somebody like yourself already has an article, adding something about them running for office seems legitimate; other opinions are welcome. EdJohnston (talk) 00:24, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the other two changes by the anon were well-meaning; the gramatical edit was just inept. Their comment on running for office not being notable is probably an allusion to WP:POLITICIAN, which states that only holding an elected office makes a person notable. However, this isn’t the main thing making Mr. Rubin notable, so you could probably flip a coin on keeping it or removing it.  The only thing I saw in the rest of the article that I found problematical is the last sentence of the first paragraph in the lede.  It’s peacockery and non-encyclopedic in tone.  Askari Mark (Talk) 03:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just to note, it's been about a week and that anonymous editor hasn't resurfaced. In addition, I've added a citation for the state assembly run which the vandal deleted because it wasn't cited. --  At am a chat 20:11, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Truegreta
Hopefully, it was just confusion on their part and no further action is needed. Apologies for cluttering this noticeboard.Cptnono (talk) 09:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC) I am requesting a more experienced editor or administrator to resolve the concern with an editor who has a conflict of interest.Cptnono (talk) 07:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * - is on the Interim Board of Directors of the Free Gaza Movement. The user is now editing the page without neutrality as a reaction to it being vandalized recently. The user also continues to add inappropriate sources. The user had a discussion with another user last year about a similar subject in which a warning was given. The editor now continues to debate and refuses to follow standards.Cptnono (talk) 07:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

The page FREE GAZA MOVEMENT has been seriously undermined by several posters, in particular Cptnono. The first paragraph of the entry was changed from the original posting more than a year ago, and the page was libelous. We have been trying to fix not only that paragraph, but we have protested that Cptnono is eliminating our references, changing some of the text and reporting our serious concerns by threatening to forbid us to enter legitimate text and sources. We ask that Cptnono not be allowed to make changes (many of them unnecessary and some of them libelous). If he did not add so many of his personal views, none of our changes would have been necessary. And we object to his removing sources just because he seems to think that Middle East/Far East papers are not worthy of being included in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truegreta (talk • contribs) 20:56, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Your account appears to be a group account in violation of Wikipedia's user name policy and has been reported. – ukexpat (talk) 20:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I feel that I have to defend myself here as I did on the user's talk page. I did not make the edits with incorrect and inflammatory information. it was another user and it was inappropriate. Please see Trugreta's, mine, or the article in question's if there are further inquiries on to my edits.Cptnono (talk) 21:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that there is a problem in Truegreta editing this page. As a source cited states the user appears to be a co-founder of the movement. It is therefore difficult to think that her edits are not a form of advocacy, this is strongly discouraged at COI. If both of you could stop editing the article for the moment it would be useful. I disagree that Truegreta is being used my multiple people at present - is there any evidence? I therefore don't think that Truegreta should be blocked. Smartse (talk) 21:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I reverted my previous edit and will hold off until this is resolved.Cptnono (talk) 21:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Truegreta has an indef block now, although I'm not quite certain why. Clearly she was in violation of WP:COI and has had quite a few warnings about her editing and conduct, but the block still seems sudden. It claims a username violation, but what violation? --  At am a chat 16:49, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Read the posts above - it's clearly a group/shared name in violation of WP:NOSHARE. – ukexpat (talk) 17:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Why? Because they used the term "we" to describe themself? I actually see that often in Wikipedia, it's a quirky thing to do but I think it's a leap to assume that an account is shared because of it. The opposite is true, if a person uses "I" to describe themself that doesn't mean the account isn't shared. Do you have another reason to believe that it's shared? --  At am a chat 18:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I didn't block them, so don't take it up with me. They can appeal the block if they so wish per the notice on their talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 18:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Honestly I'm not in tears over this, I really dislike POV-pushing activists, especially ones who speak with such charged language as Truegreta does (accusing everyone of spreading Zionist lies) but if someone is blocked it would be best if it was done for valid reasons. I've left a comment at the blocking admin's talk page. --  At am a chat 18:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I wanted to mention that an IP address from the group made an edit on the talk page before trugreta really started in. That was done perfectly. They brought up the concerns and I thought that was awesome. That person probably notified truegreta who unhappy about the shenanigans from the malicious edit. Truegreta can appeal and the IP is not blocked so I hope this is now resolved (besides any possible loose ends with the reason used in the block log).Cptnono (talk) 23:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Myself and another user protested to the blocking admin, saying that the "royal we" is not a definitive proof of a shared account. The blocking admin said there were plenty of other reasons to block the user, which nobody seems to disagree with, so I think the indef block will stand. --  At am a chat 16:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Wirtland


In my view COI notice should be better motivated in this case. Even if a major contributor of article about Wirtland (a micronation) is a citizen of this micronation, should it preclude him/her from writing about it? According to that logic, US citizens cannot edit articles about America. Opinions welcome. Witizen (talk) 18:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)Witizen


 * Your question is moot as the whole article is a blatant copyvio of http://www.wirtland.com/ and I have tagged it for deletion as such. – ukexpat (talk) 18:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, that was a crafty move, removing the site's original text and making it look like it's framing the Wikipedia article. Your reuse of the article is not, however, in compliance with WP:REUSE. – ukexpat (talk) 18:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm confused, didn't this article survive an AfD? If so, doesn't that make it invalid for CSD? And also, just to let you know, Witizen referred to him/her/themself as "we" on the talk page (slightly off-topic observation). --  At am a chat 18:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If it is in fact a copyright violation, that still means it should be speedied (don't know how it snuck by the AfD if that is the case, though), or reverted to a non-copyvio stub if one existed. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  18:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear editors. Though a speedy deletion is not exactly what I expected from posting my question here, I have answered to it on my talk page, as requested. I am tirelessly doing my best to comply with all edits and requirements, which come up again and again. I'm not complaining, however, I am thankful for this attention and all your time. I'm just trying to distinguish measurable, clear, and legitimate requests from those which I perceive (maybe wrongly) as subjective and excessive.
 * Wirtland stated that "As an internet-based community, Wirtland attaches high importance to being properly represented in the internet encyclopedia". Bearing in mind Jimbo Wales' principle "Newcomers are always to be welcomed", I hoped for a welcome, but face lots of resistance. I am ready to cooperate, but really I won't insist, so I will remove Wirtland entry if it indeed contradicts Wikipedia's rules. Witizen (talk) 19:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)Witizen


 * Yes we welcome newcomers, but there are also many policies and guidelines that face the newcomer when they participate in this project. The copyright issue for example -- for legal reasons Wikipedia cannot accept copyright materials without a clear release verifiably from the copyright owner. That's why the WP:IOWN process exists. No one here is trying to be difficult, we are just trying to ensure that the numerous policies and guidelines are adhered to. – ukexpat (talk) 19:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * One more point, the Wirtland website now looks like it is framing the Wikipedia article, but it really isn't. I am not quite sure what you are trying to achieve by using the Wikipedia logo (which by the way is a registered trademark) and the "According      to the standard of Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" language. – ukexpat (talk) 19:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I see now, on WP:CSD it states, "If a page has survived a prior deletion discussion, it should not be speedy deleted except for newly discovered copyright violations." That certainly applies here. --  At am a chat 19:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Except that I was apparently mistaken. Other editors have checked the Google cache of the website and confirmed that it looked like it does now on 6/22. However I will say in my own defence that when I checked it just before tagging for G10, none of the Wikipedia stuff was there, or at least visible (the logo or the "According      to the standard of Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" text) otherwise I would not have tagged it. I do have questions though about the purpose of using the Wikipedia trademarked logo and the accompanying text and of course the COI issues still remain.  – ukexpat (talk) 20:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe the COI accusation is valid. The defense that Witizen has no more of a COI than the citizen of a country editing their own nation's article isn't valid. The Wirtland "citizenship" is just like any organization that requires voluntary membership, such as a church or club. --  At am a chat 21:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason the citizen defence isn't valid is because no reliable authority actually recognises Wirtland as a sovereign state anyway. We're only one step removed from outright WP:MADEUP here. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:49, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh well. My entry is now blanked. My original question about COI has become irrelevant for the time being. Hope copyright permission message will be processed soon. Thanks everybody who was helpful. Witizen (talk) 20:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)Witizen.

Thomas Alured Faunce


Subject has probably written his own bio, Thomas Alured Faunce (based on editor's username and the tone of the bio - you have to read it), and is inserting references to himself in other articles left and right. I don't know that the bio is notable enough to keep. Since I'm already involved in another conflict with him at Talk:Meditation, it would be better if an uninvolved editor (and one more knowledgable about COI) looked into this. User is. Priyanath talk 21:48, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I strongly suspect this is true considering that almost every reference given in the article is self-published. On the other hand, the subject does seem pretty notable, so it's unlikely that the article would be deleted, but in the future he shouldn't be allowed to edit his own page. Of course there's no problem with him using the talk page to make suggestions or provide information to be added. --  At am a chat 20:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I left a notice at his talk page. --  At am a chat 20:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The article on Thomas Alured Faunce reads like a resume and seems a bit fluffy. I wish there were some regular editor who has the time to rewrite it. Checking Whatlinkshere to this article causes some concern that Faunce could be founding an empire here on Wikpedia. For example, the new article on Intellectual monopoly privilege is mostly by Fauncet, and he seems to be one of the two contributors to that new field. I am wondering if Faunce, as an associate professor, has already done such important work that he needs to be cited in Innovation, Intellectual property and Whistleblower. There might be a concern that he has a COI in attempting to add mentions of his own work to other articles. EdJohnston (talk) 03:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know, I get the impression that he came onto Wikipedia without a lot of foreknowledge and started making what he thought were appropriate contributions. I think if he still has interest in Wikipedia he might be fine with a little guidance, he has taken the time to explain what he was doing while in my experience an editor who is intentionally trying to push something on Wikipedia is much more defiant. I tried to think what I would have done in his situation, where he thought Wikipedia had an article on him that was blank, and tried to improve it, and I would probably have done the same thing. --  At am a chat 23:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Cloudruns. I suspect has connections with Wolfram Research the producers of Mathematica
Mathematica is an high-end maths program produced by Wolfram Research. The Mathematica article has always been very promotional - a point that has been made by several different people at different times in the talk page. One of the regular editors admits on the Talk:Mathematica he is employed by Wolfram Research, and as you will note, several have complained out his Mathematica links. But Jon does provide information to the Mathematica page which only an employee would know.

However, my concern here is about, who I believe is trying to promote Mathematica too much, at the expensive of other similar software. edits many different pages on maths software, usually adding material to give the impression nothing can touch Mathematica. Some examples of dubious edits are:


 * On a comparison of computer algebra systems, he wrote of Mathematica Ubiquitous system also includes extensive numeric capabilities, statistics, image processing, number theory, boolean computation and is a development environment. It's far from clear the program is ubiquitous
 * Cloudruns adds Mathematica to the page on a list of interactive geometry software User  later removed  edit, correctly pointed out Mathematica is not interactive geometry software. Nobody would buy Mathematica for that purpose.
 * Although I would not dispute he was right to remove some hype words from an article on Sage (a competitor to Mathematica), he does tend to add hype whenever he can if it benefits Mathematica, and remove hype when he can if it might be detrimental to Mathematica.
 * When I wrote Sage, which aims to be a free alternative to Mathematica, can be used as an interface to Mathematica Cloudruns changed it to Sage mathematics software can be used as an interface to Mathematica.

I have no hard evidence to support my believe he probably works for Wolfram Research, but when asked both in Talk:Mathematica, and User_talk:Cloudruns if this is true, he declines to answer. Drkirkby (talk) 03:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Does anyone have any comment on this? I'm not sure what is supposed to happen, as this is the first time I have reported anyone for a conflict of interest. Drkirkby (talk) 21:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've left a comment on Mathematica's talk page. I actually agreed with him on that particular issue about the "hype" about Sage, but that doesn't mean I agree with all of his edits. I reminded him that WP:COI strongly encourages editors to disclose a conflict of interest if they wish to edit an article whose subject they are affiliated with. On the other hand, Drkirkby, the question has been raised as to whether or not you are affiliated with Sage, and if so I give you the same encouragement for disclosure. --  At am a chat 20:01, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree there was some hype words. I did not write them myself. I agree he was right to remove them. It's just when you look at many of his edits, they seem very biased in one direction.
 * I do work as a developer on the Sage project (unpaid) - my main interest is improving the port to Solaris. I'll post a bit more info on the Mathematica talk page. Drkirkby (talk) 01:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Does anything else happen when User_talk:Cloudruns still refuses to answer if he has a WP:COI, despite your request? He still edits the Mathematica page in a pro-Wolfram way? Before his last round of edits, which promote the product even more, someone else has said in talk page that FWIW, I'm not particularly vested in any edits to this article, but am a regular Mathematica user. From that informed distance, this page comes across (to me at least) as strikingly Mathematica-biased: the text reads like ad copy... I'm not the only to feel that article is biased, and there are others who made the point in the archived talk pages. One person commented on this, but never edited the article as he disclosed he was a former employee. User_talk:Cloudruns just increases that bias. Drkirkby (talk) 13:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, no, I don't think anything else happens now. The difficulty is that I don't think you can really show a conflict of interest here. It might be shown that he has a pro-Mathematica bias, but the POV noticeboard might be a better place to try to get that resolved. Honestly, his refusal to answer is suspicious but he's not at all required to answer. WP:COI is a guideline, and doesn't supersede an editor's right to privacy, and you'll notice in reading the guideline that the language is quite careful, talking about what is "recommended" and "suggested". I think it might be worth bringing up in later discussions that he has refused to disclose his affiliation or lack thereof, but don't hound him about it or that could be considered harrassment and could backfire. If somehow it is revealed that he does have those affiliations and refused to disclose them earlier that will reflect poorly on him, but in the meantime what if he says no? If he's lying, you can't prove it. So I'd let this go of this particular angle and if he acts tedentious either report to the POV board or go through regular dispute resolution. --  At am a chat 22:57, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much . Although we both agree the refusal of to answer whether he has a conflict of interest is suspicious, I will not ask him any more about it. But I will as you suggest mention in any further discussions that  has refused to disclose whether or not he has an affiliation with Wolfram Research. I will copy this over to the Mathematica talk page so there is a record of it there. Thank you once again. Drkirkby (talk) 12:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Jonathan King caught POV-pushing his own article
Add Jonathan King, the sometime pop-music figure/TV personality, to the list of people caught trying to own their own articles. In this case the subject had been extensively anon-posting, trying to massage the presention of his underage sex convictions, and to reinflate the article's previous (self?-)assessment of his former importance.

Kudos to for detective work.

See: Talk:Jonathan_King & recent history

-- Jheald (talk) 17:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Rubbish. Most of my edits have been anti-King. Who is Little Grape? Similar to Purples (history)? And Privatemusings? And Expat? I won't be posting about King any more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.253.188.113 (talk) 21:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * But do you have any reasonable explanation for posting from the very same hotel King's staying at in Tivoli? Or are you still claiming you're in Seattle? Little grape (talk) 11:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Little grape: even though the guy is generally reviled, WP:OUTING puts a limit on how far it's acceptable to pursue users' real-life identities, and using IPs to track and identify someone's ongoing location - down to the level of the hotel where they're staying - looks to me to overstep that limit. If a pattern of promotional edits has been spotted, it's sufficient now that the article get increased editorial focus to maintain NPOV. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 12:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to admit that I agree with the anonymous poster; I looked at the edits they were making and they didn't seem all that complimentary of King. They were fairly balanced, I would expect if that really was King that he'd be more aggressive about removing negative information and inserting positive information, but that wasn't the case. --  At am a chat 17:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow... As it turns out, according to Checkuser about a half-dozen editors of King's article who have been defending him and/or changing the article to remove negative content are confirmed to be sockpuppets, likely of King himself. That's disturbing. --  At am a chat 17:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It was quite cleverly done - but then he's a Cambridge English grad. At least we can now settle down to starting over, and writing a balanced article. My own view is that he was an extraordinary (in all senses) character in the 60's and 70's, occupying a unique niche in British pop history who then went on to develop and star in an outstandingly good TV series in the early 80's. But he didn't do anything notable for the next ten years - until his convictions. And he hasn't done anything notable since, either. Endless plugging of his latest home-movie, and puffery of non-notable stuff he's done since being released simply detracts from his considerable achievements (even if these *don't* include running Decca Records). Let's have a shot at writing something even he can be proud of? And in my view it's fine for him to come clean and assist in that process - as long as he commits to not editing the main article. (assuming your permission Atama, can I copy this and your comment above to the King talk page?) Little grape (talk) 18:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't need my permission, but I appreciate you asking... Sure, go ahead. --  At am a chat 19:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Kevinbrogers and The True Victory
Editor created the page for The True Victory (also up for AfD), an unreleased, unproduced film he plans to direct. Doesn't see his contributions as conflict of interest or self-promotion, continues to add his film to 2010s in film‎ after being notified of COI. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 17:52, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He seems to have come around somewhat, he is asking for advice on sourcing and on what to do about the article after deletion, and seems resigned to the fact that deletion is going to happen. He is also very open about his COI, so I'm not sure what other measures have to be taken in his case. --  At am a chat 20:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Neo Torres
Came across this book cover of a book by Neo Torres in Coyame UFO incident, an article very heavily edited by. Looks like pretty blatant self promotion and the article references Torres and another self-published book almost exclusively. NJGW (talk) 22:38, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that page should go up for AfD probably; references are very weak. I tried finding online coverage of the incident and I found a single article talking about it. And guess what? It was an article in a Wichita Falls newspaper that was an interview with Noe Torres! Blatant self promotion? I'd say so. --  At am a chat 16:03, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I also found that Noe created the Milton Torres 1957 UFO Encounter article. I doubt very much the name similarity is a coincidence. --  At am a chat 16:37, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * With whole paragraphs of personal claims presented as factual and sourced to "personal interview" -- greattttt. DreamGuy (talk) 17:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Every contribution this editor has made has been in articles that feature one of his books prominently as a reference (which he helpfully added) or linked to an article of the same. Unfortunately the whole concept of no original research is foreign to him (which is somewhat understandable considering that his original research has been published). --  At am a chat 19:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

User:ITMLONDON = Insanity Talent Management
From the link in the article to www.itmlondon.com, this user is evidently Insanity Talent Management trying to use Wikipedia to promote their client. Username possibly not directly promotional, but I suggest should be blocked as an advertiser. JohnCD (talk) 11:42, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I tagged it for G11 speedy as in my view, from both tone and content, it's a PR piece. Also reported username to UAA, but not holding my breath. – ukexpat (talk) 14:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Given that itmlondon is their website, I blocked it as a blatant spamusername. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  14:54, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Springer Science+Business Media products - multiple articles

 * - has created spammy articles on a number of products of Springer Science+Business Media (SpringerImages, Springer Exemplar, ‎AuthorMapper, and edited others‎ (Springer Science+Business Media) or inserted Springer product names into other articles (CiteULike); and seems to have no interest in any other topic. Orange Mike   &#x007C;   Talk  00:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Many Springer products are notable, and these may be also, but they have just been released. I'm prepared to try to contact the company, because I think they've also used other usernames for some of their articles on journals. I will help them as needed, but they can't do it this way. DGG (talk) 00:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanx, DGG. I can always depend on you to do the right thing in this kind of situation; but please be prepared to use your biggest cluebat. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  15:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Danny Mekić
I suspect that who created this article may be the subject. Hard to prove or disprove but the article is fairly promotional. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It should be pointed out that the article is currently in an AfD. --  At am a chat 19:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Bkpub and Berrett-Koehler Publishers
User:Bkpub has entered articles and links relating to books published by Berrett-Koehler Publishers. WP:UAA did not consider this a promotional user-name. I gave the user a welcome note including a pointer to WP:BFAQ and a COI warning, and he has not edited since. I will check out the books and PROD if necessary, though the articles are not excessively promotional and at least the first will probably pass as notable - it seems Obama referred to it in a speech. Posted here in case anyone thinks more action necessary. JohnCD (talk) 10:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Jeez sometimes I despair of WP:UAA - how is that not a promotional user name? – ukexpat (talk) 15:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * First, seeing as I'm going to have to post it here as well, the policy guidelines clearly states that users who "add promotional material or demonstrate a conflict of interest can be reported to the conflict of interest noticeboard or to administrator intervention against vandalism, where further action may be taken." :/ UAA is usually for more extreme cases, such as personal attacks, more obvious promotional usernames (ex. BUYBOOKSAT___), and all that lovely stuff at WP:IU. For cases such as this, you would take it to COIN. Besides, I checked the first article-it seems pretty good. As long as he's not promoting material as set by G11, I think that the worst he should get is a warning and CHU. Cheers,  I 'mperator 16:35, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to agree about the username. Bkpub gives a hint to the COI (fortunately) but it's not explicit. A casual editor wouldn't even think twice about that username. While COI certainly exists if they created articles on notable subjects without adding promotional material, they have been warned about COI, and haven't edited since, I think that there's nothing further to do. Does anyone disagree? --  At am a chat 16:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Another editor has PRODded Crunch (book). I have now checked out All Together Now (book) and PRODded that, too, because on checking the Obama speech cited as a reference, I find that while he used the phrase "You're on your own now" there is no confirmation of the article's claim that he was referring to a theory coined in this book - he does not refer to the book or to its author. If the articles are deleted, I will tidy up the various links. User has not edited since warning, I agree no further action required unless they come back. JohnCD (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Spokeo

 * - This article is essentially written and maintained by the company it describes. The company is just another people search engine; only notable for spamming people, and the only sources are some outdated references from tech blogs. I tried editing it, but the CEO of the company changed it back again - after sending me an email offering me a free "premium account" with his site...akaDruid (talk) 13:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Tagged for speedy delete. Rees11 (talk) 02:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * And untagged, because I see it has already survived an AfD, although I can't imagine how. The article as it stands is nothing but advertising. Rees11 (talk) 02:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It survived the delete because of the "multiple non-trivial published works" rule which is essentially broken for web2.0 type websites; any and every new site that does a press release gets some chatter on the millions of tech blogs; which count as 'reliable sources' for this purpose.


 * Also in the Afd, I argued that the article is CofI, OR and misleading, to which the response was 'edit, don't delete'; except I can't edit it because the site owners change it back. Ho hum.  I wouldn't care so much, except that the site is so slimy; they are spamming people's contacts, and worse, trying to mine people's personal data and then sell it (to recruiters and such like), which is so unethical it makes me shiver. akaDruid (talk) 11:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The article has been stubbified because the AfD concluded that the article subject was notable, but the article content was influenced greatly by employees of Spokeo. Reading the history of the article shows numerous edits by the company. Fortunately they seem to be open and honest about who they are when they edit, but unfortunately they don't see any problem with changing the content directly. In the future we should be very careful to not let them do this again, the article was very inaccurate and misleading as written, attempting to present the company as something it wasn't; primarily as a social network service site when it is really a social network aggregation site, and removing negative sourced information. --  At am a chat 22:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Possible IGDA spam

 * User


 * Articles related to the user

The user above seems to be closely affiliated with Roger E. Pedersen and has been inserting wikilinks to the Combination Lock (game show) and Adventure game articles above and has been creating Game Design Foundations, Second Edition which has repeatedly been tagged as spam and removed. See http://www.mobygames.com/user/sheet/userSheetId,25684. It is possible that this user may be representing the IGDA in some sort of a spamming operation. MuZemike 05:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the book article is gone and it looks like the biography is on its way out. If they get recreated, they can be deleted and salted. I actually checked his edits to Adventure game and let them stand; they were appropriate as they helped in specifying the page numbers and edition of the book used as a reference. I fixed the "Video Game" portion of Combination Lock which was very spammy, written as a promotional piece. --  At am a chat 17:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

User:NitroMan3941
- The Meet the Deedles article was hit with what appeared to be a rash of vandalism a while ago. I was unable to revert it due to my lack of familiarity with the film, but I felt it was clearly both inaccurate and unencyclopedic. I checked back later to find that User:NitroMan3941 had cleaned up the article well, but left much of what I considered to be clear vandalism. Accidentally conflating him with the original vandal, and noting some other suspect edits he had made, I called him out in a heavy-handed way, which I have attempted to apologize for after realizing he was not the original vandal. Since then, and despite mediation by User:Fleetflame, he has been volatile and offensive to myself and other editors. I have attempted to engage the user in discussion, but he seems too offended to deal with me. Finally, I did a heavy revert on the article, citing sources, which he completely replaced today with his original text, removed my sources, and backed up his edit with two low-quality sources (one is a humor site and the other is a comment on an entertainment website, both seem to be based not on fact but on the original vandalism present in this very article.) He has blanked his user talk page. I do not feel. User:Jeff_G. seems to have become disgusted and nominated the article for deletion, but I feel, prior to Nitroman's reverting my edits, the article was sufficiently sourced and accurate. Dabizi (talk) 03:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As always Dabizi is being not being 100% accurate. I was working with Fleetflame but he seemingly lost interest. Also, he's being somewhat nosey, as it shouldn't make much difference to him if i delete old content on my talk page, considering he had no ongoing topic with me. NitroMan3941 (talk) 04:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Why is there a conflict of interest? This seems to be a content dispute rather than a COI issue. Users can delete content on their talk page if they like too. Smartse (talk) 12:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I call conflict of interest because, after my initial heavy-handedness, User:NitroMan3941 has taken a personal adversarial role against me and my edits. This is documented on the Deedles talk page, on my user talk page, and on his talk page. I understand that there is no problem with blanking one's talk page; I made mention so our interactions there would not be overlooked. I've attempted to make edits and engage NitroMan in discussion to better the article together, but have found it to be fruitless. For instance, I asked him to cite sources, and he initially refused, later explaining, "I didn't want to deal with you on the sources because i think you're just looking for something to complain about because you're bored." On my User Talk page, he has bragged "I didn't even read most of what you sent me." and "I'm only rude when I see fit." Lastly, when I explained why my sources would be valid (TV Guide and Variety) and his would not, I was told to "Stop repeating myself for the sake of impressing other users." I have not been allowed to make an accepted point, let alone a valid edit, because of NitroMan's well-documented animosity to me. On the other hand, since my initial mistake, I have attempted to be civil and straightforward with him this whole process. Dabizi (talk) 14:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Conflict of interest applies to articles, not interaction with other editors. If NitroMan3941 were, say, the director of "Meet the Deedles" or a member of a PR firm trying to promote the picture company responsible for it, those would be conflicts of interest because it would be difficult for him to remain objective and to keep a neutral point of view in editing the article even if he tried. What you have is a personal conflict with another editor, and only in your interactions with him rather than a content dispute over what goes into an article. I suggest reporting him to theWikiquette alerts noticeboard. Just an FYI, it does appear to me that NitroMan3941 has repeatedly reverted the Meet the Deedles page back to one that includes vandalism, unnecessary plot detail, POV/opinion and removed references (even the references section!) and I've restored back to the "fixed" version and will be watching the page. If he continues with the disruptive editing, I'll get personally involved. Oh, another note, a user can blank his talk page if he wishes, it's not uncommon to do so although some might consider it rude and would prefer that a person archive old content instead of deleting it. It doesn't really matter because the history of that talk page is still available for anyone to view. --  At am a chat 18:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, you won't have the chance to get involved, Atama. Maybe now Dabizi will rest and not follow me around observing my edits like he's threatend to. I don't consider myself a vandal, i just tried to improve the page just like the many other pages i've contributed to. A banned user called Freedom Fighter did vandalize it though. In regards to rudeness and so fourth, thats because a few users, including one who hasn't even been here as long me sent me generic welcome templates eather than telling me what their problem was, so i did get rude. As for Dabizi, i told him i didn't read most of what he wrote because most of it was taken from a template aswell, and i only read his own original text. and yes, it doesn't really matter because the history of my talk page is still available for anyone to view if they don't have anything better to do.NitroMan3941 (talk) 21:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand the mistake, thank you for the clarification on all counts Atama. I remain frustrated with NitroMan, but Unless you recommended otherwise, I do not currently plan to escalate the issue to Wikiquette Alerts. Dabizi (talk) 03:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Alerts for what? I'm allowed to defend myself if another editor is persecuting me and analyzing everything i do such as blanking my talk page. NitroMan3941 (talk) 07:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't recommend it, Dabizi, I'd let it go. I'm not an administrator, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I personally wouldn't bring up a complaint in a two-sided dispute unless (A) I felt the other person had really gone over the line at some point, or (B) I was absolutely confident that my own conduct was irreproachable. I've seen many times when one editor complains about another and both of them get blocked/sanctioned, so you have to wonder if it's worth it. I'm not making a judgement on either of you, just to let you know. --  At am a chat 17:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Webdunia.com
I declined the speedy deletion and handed it off to WP:INDIA. The conversation there was:


 * The linked article was tagged as G11, but I'd rather you guys decide what to do with this one. Probably WP:COI, and no other contributions by the page creator, but it looks interesting anyway. - Dank (push to talk) 17:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Not notable and definite COI. 80% of all content additions are from Indore, where the company and website are registered (per WHOIS/the article's Infobox). AreJay (talk) 19:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

However, I'm getting a lot of hits at the news archives, too many to go to AfD with. There are WP:COI and tone problems. Any thoughts? - Dank (push to talk) 12:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Peeball
See also

seems to be the account of a UK brand consultancy (Sweetapple) and used to further the publicity aims of its owners, Elaine and Matthew Sweetapple. The name itself is the name of a product that they're flogging. Some of the ventures include:


 * - The consultancy itself.
 * - co-written by Matthew Sweetapple. Has added references to this in unrelated articles such as Passenger Pigeon and Great Auk
 * - Made a few edits here, but it's unclear whether she's a client or they're just interested.

Ventures flogged on their user page but not, so far, done up as articles include:

Calton | Talk 01:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Page re-created at User:Creationist32. Should I be filing a WP:SPI report for completeness' sake? --Calton | Talk 01:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's reasonable to suspect that would be a sock of one or more of the banned users. --  At am a chat 16:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Fan edit/User:LoganPublishing
Brand new user LoganPublishing has tried to edit warring to include references to a particular website in this article. Possible COI noticed from this page, where a user named "Logan-5" is shown to be a moderator at the contested site. User's first edit was a personal attack on another editor over this dispute. User appears to have continued this edit war from his previous IP addresses - 124.8.111.84, 124.8.72.177, and 124.8.72.192. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 19:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He admits who he is on his talk page, but claims there's "nothing to come clean about" and blames everyone who opposes his edits as either being affiliated with a rival site or having some grudge against his. I don't think this will end well for him. --  At am a chat 17:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

California Department of Public Health


CDPHOPA has so far only edited the article on the California Department of Public Health. CDPHOPA is an acronym for California Department of Public Health, Office of Public Affairs (google search will confirm the use of these acronyms in official publications). So far the level of self-promotion has been relatively low, although new information is being added in brochure style. -- NathanoNL [ usr | msg |  log ]  00:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you checked for possible copyvio? Durova  273 02:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The copyright is owned by the State of California. I work for the California Department of Public Health and I do have permission to reprint the material found on the website. CDPHOPA (talk) 20:05, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia policy does not accept wholesale republication of copyrighted material by permission. Also, it is not within our site mission to republish public relations material.  You wouldn't go to a public library and paste that type of material into the pages of Britannica.  Please treat our encyclopedia and its central mission with the same respect.  Durova  273 21:53, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

User Semprof

 * Link:
 * Link:
 * Link:

This user and IP edit almost exclusively to promote the published works of a particular seminary professor. The simplest explanation is that this is a conflict of interest. ✤ JonHarder talk 11:44, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment The IP hasn't edited since 2006...Cheers,  I 'mperator 12:52, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Scientific Research and Experimental Development Tax Credit Program
- IP address 209.167.106.14 continually posts links for commercial interest, for example, currently he/she has created a section entitled "CTAP is your main source for your free SR&ED consultation: www.CTAP.ca" Clearly COI. TeamLance (talk) 00:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You're probably right. But it was just an anonymous IP spamming for one day. Monitor it and see if they continue, and if they do report to WP:AIV. There's hardly any activity on that article as it is. --  At am a chat 02:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at that account's history, it spammed other articles with ads as well. It has since been blocked as a Spam-Only account. If it re-incarnates and resumes its activity, the result will be the same I expect. Arakunem Talk 14:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

What is COI policy for Further reading and similar items?
see Talk:Karluk (ship)

In brief: a series of pages were edited inserting references to two books (same author and publisher) as References or Further reading. On brief examination the content seems pertinent. An editor reverted these without discussion as spam. Both editors are IP. What is policy? Comments on procedure also welcome.Dankarl (talk) 13:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The relevant COI section would be the Self Promotion section, which states to avoid "Links that appear to promote products by pointing to obscure or not particularly relevant commercial sites (commercial links)." (emphasis added). Furthermore, the MOS guideline on Further Reading sections in general states that this section is for "A bulleted list, usually alphabetized, of recommended publications that do not appear elsewhere in the article" (emphasis added again).
 * So the question for the editors on the respective talk pages is: Is this book, as it is inculded, considered relevant and indeed recommended to help the reader's understanding of the topic? Since you brought this to COI/N, and from reading the page you linked, there is suspicion that the IP that added the links may be either the author, or someone affiliated with him. It was also pointed out quite correctly that the IP could be someone very interested in shipwrecks and who got a great deal of added value from the book, and wants to share it with others.
 * COI guidelines would not necessarily preclude the author, (if the IP is indeed him, which is far from certain) from linking his book as a Further Reading, especially considering he did not use it as a source for the article, which would tighten the standard for notability of the author (see WP:COS). If the book is considered to be relevant and recommended by the community (editors on the talk page in this case), then I feel its inclusion would be ok.
 * Footnote on the Spam tagging: perfectly understandable in this case. Speaking as a Recent Changes patroller, when an editor adds the same link to several articles in succession, it immediately arouses Spammy suspicions. The right thing to do before reverting is to evaluate the link's relation to the article, even on a basic level, but for a patroller with zero experience in the topic, a revert is not unexpected. As happened here, you folks watching the article took note of this, and discussion ensued, just as desired! Arakunem Talk 14:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If the mentions of Balkan's books weren't be added through a spam campaign, the mention in the Karluk (ship) might be tolerable. I used the Amazon 'search within book' to see how much Evan Balkan had to say about the Karluk disaster. The book has has about fifteen pages on the topic, and the material looks to be well-written and perceptive. I suggest that the mention of this book be moved from the article to the talk page, and let it stay there until someone has the time to add some facts from the book to the article. Then the book could be legitimately added as a reference. Since the IP, 71.179.182.26, has been mass-adding mentions of Balkan's books to articles, often directly adding them to reference sections inappropriately, I'd have no problem reverting all those changes. Editors who see potential value in the books might consider leaving a note on the talk pages of the respective articles, to allow them to be used in future article improvement. EdJohnston (talk) 16:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Advocacy Project

 * is adding spam links to the Advocacy Project to myriad articles across Wikipedia. Have left a WP:COI notice on this editor's talk page, and have also reported the name problem, too. -- Yaf (talk) 21:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Mikems
- Widespread promotion of the http://www.flwildflowers.com website, which contains a serious of essays propounding bizarre fringe theories about plant evolution. 12 of the last 15 edits by this user have introduced external links to the website. Hesperian 04:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They don't seem to be specifically a spammer, though their repeated addition of that website is certainly spammy. I've left them a warning regarding COI, and specifically pointed out: "Links that appear to promote otherwise obscure individuals by pointing to their personal pages." They do seem to be trying to push a particular agenda, but hopefully they'll calm down. It doesn't look good that almost all of their contributions has been to promote a particular site and/or viewpoint, but this is also their first warning of any kind. --  At am a chat 05:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, judging by the nature of their edits and their chosen username, I would guess that they are Michael E. Abrams, who is the person running that website. --  At am a chat 05:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Rod MacIvor

 * - Rampant editing by the user on this article; username indicates that it may be a self-promotional account. sixty nine   • spill it •  17:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I started a discussion on the talk page of the article so that if someone clicks on the link in the COI tag on the page it will actually lead somewhere. I have to say that it's certainly suspicious to have such a similarity between the editor's username and the real name and profession of the article subject. Also unusual is that Fotomanrod didn't start the article, but rather someone else did, edited a bit, then stopped completely and never edited the article again. Later that same day Fotomanrod took over and has been editing it ever since. So I don't know if they are the same person, or know each other in real life, or what. --  At am a chat 20:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Hank Van Sickle

 * -Notability not in question, but username indicates it may be a self-promotional account; opened article of same name three years ago and is currently a regular editor. sixty nine   • spill it •  00:34, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Baxter International
Note this edit, and this warning by an account with this user page. This is an account that is dedicated to only contributing to one page, the company's wikipage. I don't think further action is needed, but I do think COIN needs to know about this. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/complex 18:22, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow. That has to be the most restrained editor with a COI that I have ever seen. If you look at that Baxter International page, 2/3 of the article is just "controversies". That is a lot of undue weight toward a negative bias. And yet all that the editor did was remove an obviously redundant entry in the lead. If there was a COI barnstar I'd give it to them. --  At am a chat 08:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not a lot of negative weight to a bias, it's what I could find in reliable sources. News sources are going to be biased to controversies, I did my best to find non-controversy sources but each time I looked, more controversies came up.  The edit the Baxter account made was to inappropriately remove a mention of those controversies from the lead.  I've also included their early entry into "green and greed", work on the swine flu vaccine, and a recent acquisition.  A restrained COI editor is still a COI editor, who shouldn't be editing their own page, and certainly shouldn't be removing solely negative information from the lead.  WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/complex 21:50, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I can understand that. Hopefully in the future the article can be expanded to have more about the company itself, though the article seems to be progressing very well. For now, however, it is totally redundant to include information about controversies in the lead when about half of the article is about those controversies anyway. I actually agree with the edit that TGLcomms made, it is an improvement on the article to remove that redundancy. Do you honestly think that removing that info from the lead actually takes any negative information away from the article? The fact that they left the rest in should be an indicator that they aren't trying to whitewash at all. However, I am in complete agreement with you that TGLcomms shouldn't be the one who made that edit. Even if it is a proper edit to make in general, WP:COI is sensitive about an editor with a clear conflict of interest removing negative material unless it is blatant vandalism, and that obviously wasn't. Your warning to that editor and the report here do seem appropriate. They should rather be making suggestions on the talk page of the article instead of direct edits (and I do see that they are making such suggestions, and have been for awhile). --  At am a chat 20:36, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Georgianwebteam
made this edit today to Georgian College. User's first edit was back on February 18. Willking1979 (talk) 20:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Talpert2

 * - created by User:Talpert2 notability is not in question but the whole tone of the article is promotional and lacking in encyclopaedic tone...could someone advise how to proceed?  Teapot  george  Talk  21:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, I was just coming over here to report this article and see you beat me to it, George. "Strong advocate", "mentor", etc. is probably the wrong tone.  This autobiography, one sentence in Hidden Lake (Connecticut), and the article about her company, Zeo, are the only articles she's edited.  But I declined the G11 speedy deletion because there's enough to work with here that we shouldn't have to dump the article and start over. - Dank (push to talk) 22:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Maulya (moved from UAA)

 * - username itself is fine but it is used for promotion and the "We" indicates that this is purely for spam purposes. - Warthog Demon  04:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Because the username is not the problem, this isn't a UAA issue. Moved to COIN. rspεεr (talk) 04:05, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you be specific about the particular COI here? I can tell that the editor created a page called "Maulya", which was deleted, but I don't see any other edits they have done to articles that haven't been deleted. --  At am a chat 22:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Cityzen451
Premature and pointless Request for Arbitration that needs nipping in the bud. User Cityzen451 wants inclusion of a book - A Memory Therapy ... by James Rowan - and is disputing the removal. Googling, or internal search of the Amazon.com preview for "Cityzen451", strongly suggests a COI. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 17:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I have read the comments from this editor and under the circumstances, and given that the issue is not of having the links removed, but of having may entire contributions for various articles i contributed to last year deleted in reaction to my having contributed to these articles in which they are editors.

And the editor is attempting to state COI based in the fact that I left a review of the book?

A conflict of interst does not disbar a contribution only that caution and close consultation is required. I would like to reposted the links removing the link to Amazon and using the reference to the ISBN number. I would also suggest that simply inviting me to discuss the issue with encouragement and without an overuse of shorthand would be far more constructive and less of a waste of people's time and effort.

Nor does noteablity when it is dependant on the contect of the contribution, such as wider reading and perspective, in the case of the book I proposed it was a specifically good example of an implementation working from the phological interpretation of Dyslexia, and was a good source for further reading in that area.

I also mentioned that there should be a further reading section in the article and that its purpose is to give a wider perspective of interpretation, moreover the variety of unverified therapies due to parents seeking them out due to the lack of progress in this area, makes it a very pertinant issue that should be covered in the article.

Respectfully I would like to work with the editors, and it would be far easier if they were more encouraging and welcoming

Cityzen451 (talk) 20:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Would you be willing to answer a few simple questions to clarify this situation? Are you the author of this book? What (if any) association do you have with the website Cityzen451.co.uk? - MrOllie (talk) 20:59, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This is not about the book but going off on one and deleting entries inappropriately out of apparent maliciousness.


 * No I am not the author of the book, and that is not the issue of this arbitration. My issue is you have deleted any contribution I have made to Wikipedia and deleted a host of links (few of them mine) in the mouse gesture article, which in the context of computing were very necessary to opensources listing and software clasess and plug-ins, not even related to my contribution, which is vandalism because you clearly know nothing about computing, hence the necessity of consulting others. I have checked your talk page and you are constanly contacted for doing this very thing, it is disruptive


 * I originally added to the Mouse gesture article and yes I am associated with it, and my submission was monitored. Further to your complaints I removed mention of the software, however you have return and deleted all my contribution, for example to the sections on pop up notifications, which was a crucial part of the article. Can you explain why you did this? You cant just go on a witch hunt and remove everything without any consideration, spoiling other peoples contributions. Not just my contribution, since a lot of editors of that section spent time preparing links to classes and software, which you have deleted. Software is on the whole commercial, and so the issue falls to notability, in the case of mouse gesture interaction it is niche, the issue of notability is small, the devil is in the detail, context. That why they are guidelines!


 * I will also note that the book references in the ADHD article have links to google, so your going into all my contributions and deleting them was more probably guided by malice, because you failed to ensure that the rest of the article fitted your interpretation of the guidlines. Or is this comment misguided in anyway.


 * Cityzen451 (talk) 14:06, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a link directory, which I believe I've already mentioned on your talk page. If you believe other links are inappropriate, please remove them or raise them for discussion on the articles talk page, but the inclusion of one link is not reason to include another - MrOllie (talk) 14:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * At Articles for deletion/Watermark charm interaction Cityzen451 self-disclosed as the owner of Cityzen451.co.uk. And this is not about a review of the book, but the same web address appearing in the author biosquib. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 21:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Err that is a bit of a leap! And there were better ways to address it. And that is the crux of the problem here. I support the book and have previously linked to the book in my own websites, and as an outsider one of my domains was used to host information about the book on a site, that is not a conflict of interest, just interest, as contributing to a WIKI is the same. I am dyslexic and have tried the therapy and for me it worked, that simple. You cannot disbar a book because it is simply on-demand, a reference to a book is simply a reference to an article, and notability is with respect to the context with which it is referred to. I think you are referring to the fact that I added pictures to the Amazon site which anyone is entitled to do. Yes I am particular to the book but conflict of interest is not a rule it is a guideline. My beef is the way conclusions have been jumped to and all work has been removed and the antagonism. Not just me but MrOllie has removed the work and contributions of others in a clumbsy attempt to resolve the matter in a way he saw fit. First of it was attempts to disuade me from raising an arbitration, now it is personal attacks on side issues to try and assasinate my character.


 * The issue is not about the book, my actions were to add a further reading section to the Dyslexia article, I added some references to seed the contribution (that being the idea of a wiki), which it needs, my view is the article is biased to Scientific notability, which is not neutral, a wider perspective is required and provided they are in context and indicated as unverified that is acceptable and requirewd. I dont like the Davis book however it is significantly notable due to popularity. I added the book to the ADHD section for the same reasons, with a view to returning to do the same.


 * Cityzen451 (talk) 14:06, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

May I enquire about the way this arbitration has been structured the title has been changed to Cityzen451! implying i am the problem, is this impartial? The objection to the arbitration is but before the description! And my comments have been edited so that the reason for the arbitration is obscured. The reason is editors ran off on a witch hunt and deleted all my contributions, not just references to software but the actual content also and deleted contributions by other authors because they did not consult others first

Cityzen451 (talk) 14:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You appear to be confused. This is a conflict of interest section opened by User:Gordonofcartoon. Your arbitration request is located at Arbitration/Requests/Case. - MrOllie (talk) 14:24, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed I have:) thank you for pointing that out so graciously;) do you not think that it would have been fairer and in the spirit of "conflict of interest"... to have informed me? ;) Moreover why is this even an issue anymore? the link I proposed has been removed and that is the end of it, or is this to block contribution to those articles?

'''My other issue is placing my comments at the top of this section, heavily edited with my signature, would yould like to explain that. If it is a quote it should be made very clear, and if it is edited it should be made very clearly where.'''

--Cityzen451 (talk) 14:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You put those comments there. See this diff. - MrOllie (talk) 15:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Why would I even bother to comment, this is childishness, I did not write those comments and why would someone comment on my talk page anymously? Clearly I didnt write them, if I didnt even know about this complaint... Pointless antagonism Cityzen451 (talk) 17:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is kinda absurd for a variety of reasons:
 * Reverting against consensus to include books of dubious merit on the main page is inappropriate. This should have been discussed on the talk page, and Cityzen451 doesn't seem to have any talk page contributions
 * Adding the books with links to the amazon page is inapproprite in any case - WP:ELNO point 15 is pretty clear on this
 * None of the books appear to be by scholarly publishers, providing basic, background, encyclopedic content on the topics. Some look to be how to manuals rather than scholarly volumes.
 * Starting an arbitration case is pretty clearly premature. There are only two posts indicating dispute resolution has been followed, both to one person's talk page.
 * I don't know if this is a COIN problem, but certainly there has been a lot of unnecessary noise for what should have been a relatively easy problem to resolve. Cityzen, the books are inappropriate, you shouldn't be adding them; this is creating unnecessary drama and trouble for yourself, several other contributors, and is wasting a lot of time.  There's no maliciousness here, I suggest letting it drop now that you are aware of what the issues were.  WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/complex 17:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You are either confused (I think likely) or someone has gained the password to your account (I think unlikely) but there is no question that comment was placed on this page by the account you are using. - MrOllie (talk) 17:10, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I feel this is counterproductive... as is clear the the links have been removed... period... I am not the one banging on about this... simply going to the extent of constructing all a Conflict of interest over yes the misguided addition of a book reference... What the issue is an editor removing all my contributions and trying to play the system. Does anyone actually read what has been written, or does everyone here read without their expectations? and my view is now, if you are to make personal remarks, and attempt to patronise and fob off contributors with legitimate greavance and belittle people churlishly, then I have nothing more to say. Cityzen451 (talk) 18:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi there. I'm chiming in as an uninvolved third-party, I've never had any interaction with Cityzen451 and I don't believe I've interacted with any of the other editors here, nor have I had anything to do with the RfA that was mentioned.


 * First, I think bringing up the RfA isn't necessary nor productive. The RfA is being handled in the proper channels, if it's a frivolous request then it will be closed as such, and nothing that is discussed here should have anything to do with it. This board is about conflicts of interest, and whatever inappropriate requests were made somewhere else have nothing to do with that, so I'd discourage everyone from bringing it up from now on.


 * Secondly, Cityzen451, we do have a policy of assuming good faith and it is very much frowned-upon to accuse other editors of malicious intent when they make edits you disagree with. Statements like the following: "which is vandalism because you clearly know nothing about computing", "your going into all my contributions and deleting them was more probably guided by malice"... Those kinds of comments are not going to be well-received, even if you feel that they are in the wrong.


 * Thirdly, Cityzen451, please don't take offense at being listed on the COI noticeboard. You have to admit that there is a good reason to suspect a conflict of interest, with the nature of your edits and your chosen username. Just being listed here isn't an accusation, it's more of a question. Again, as an uninvolved third party, it doesn't look like any COI is proven here, just some inappropriate links to books.


 * Finally, there seem to be good reasons to not include those links, and Cityzen451 has accepted this (if ungraciously), and so I don't think there should really be a dispute any longer. Does anyone feel that there is anything else that needs to be discussed regarding a conflict of interest? --  At am a chat 20:17, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

article: Big Fish Games
--  At am a chat 18:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC) Some recent edits used the WP:OSE logic to remove a maintenance tag, and made some borderline changes to the page, as seen in the diff. Not a big deal, but it's a page that doesn't tend to have many eyeballs, and I have a "negative" COI with the company, so I'm not really wanting to get involved. tedder (talk) 01:52, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The reasoning for removing the tag was poor, however the changes themselves seem to have improved the article and did remove some promotional materials which justifies the removal of the advert tag. The article does need work and still has a tag for citations so I don't see a real problem with it. --  At am a chat 18:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Atama. That's all I needed- a third-party opinion. Cheers, tedder (talk) 18:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Klingspor Abrasives
--  At am a chat 18:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * - Blatant advertising (user said on userpage that he works for this company), as his only contributions include opening an article about this non-notable company (no viable third-party sources about it or the "PS33" product it manufactures) and linking related articles to it. sixty nine   • spill it •  00:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The speedy deletion tag was taken off of the Klingspor Abrasives article, references have been added to the article, and promotional material removed. The editor also is open about his/her conflict of interest. --  At am a chat 03:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, no problem. sixty nine   • spill it •  06:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Googleisawesome‎

 * user


 * articles
 * The user's own page is also a mirror of these pages.
 * The user's own page is also a mirror of these pages.
 * The user's own page is also a mirror of these pages.

Per statement by the user, they are Sarey. Appears to be creating vanity pages for self (musician that does not yet appear to meet WP:MUSIC). The created pages have already been deleted under per Articles for deletion/Sarey Savy, and continue to be re-created. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 03:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The user has repeatedly attempted to remove the speedy delete tags, so one of the two articles has now been submitted to AfD at Articles for deletion/Sarey (Singer). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 05:16, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This now appears resolved, via Sockpuppet investigations/Channel 6. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:51, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Nelio Guerson
User has created a few pages regarding a musical group with the same name. Appears user is acting in good faith, e.g., responding to criticism, adding sources, looking into GFDL, etc. User has requested advice on COI at Talk:Nelio Guerson and Carlos Guerson. Prolly best to have further discussion there. But I'm not sure how to proceed and would like additional opinions. I'm watching all relevant pages and will help if I can.

Articles: — DragonHawk (talk|hist) 02:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If the editor is following the rules that's wonderful. I will note that the articles seem to merit inclusion, at least at a cursory glance, as they are sourced enough to show notability.


 * I think that what is most appropriate is that the person reveal their COI officially, probably best done on their user page. That doesn't necessarily mean revealing personal information, in fact the less they reveal the better, but if in fact the editor is Nelio Guerson himself then he is free to reveal that. The WP:COI guideline recommends that if an editor is closely related to the subject of an article, that they should limit their contributions. Work on the article space should be limited to correcting typos and reverting vandalism. It's best if they make suggestions on the talk pages of the articles if they wish to correct inaccurate information, or add new information or sources, or if they have a dispute over article content, rather than making the changes themselves. Editing the article directly isn't forbidden, exactly, just frowned upon. However if they make edits that remove sourced information, add dubious info, or insert a POV then it's likely that an administrator would be quicker to block them than they would for someone who didn't have a COI with those articles.


 * I hope that gives you some insight as to how best to proceed here, again it's great that they are willing to comply, many editors who have a COI aren't so easy to work with (just look elsewhere on this page). Thanks! --  At am a chat 17:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Publicist using Wikipedia for self-promotion
Obvious autobiography of publicist Mike Paul initially created by Paul or someone connected to him as and then edited by Paul himself as. Although warned to be mindful of conflict of interest policy, Mgpaul continues to add unsourced puffery to his biography and has repeatedly vandalized his article by removing "unsourced" and "orphan" tags.--Jay Tepper (talk) 11:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * MGpaul has been warned about COI and has a vandalism warning, and is being uncommunicative and apparently uncooperative. Since they won't "play nice", any disruptive editing on their part (like removing tags without reason) should be reverted as vandalism with warnings given, and if they keep it up too long they'll be blocked as any other vandal would be; I'd guess indefinitely considering the COI issues and lack of other positive contributions. If on the other hand they stop those edits, then all is well. --  At am a chat 20:48, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

International Republican Institute
The above user is making possible conflict of interest edits to International Republican Institute. --Tckma (talk) 18:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've left a COI warning template on their talk page. So far their edits don't seem too terrible, but I don't doubt at all that there is a COI here. We'll see if they plan on being cooperative, or if they continue editing at all. --  At am a chat 20:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That user name is a problem - reporting to WP:UAA. – ukexpat (talk) 21:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Ihor Podolchak
Ihor Podolchak seems to be extensively edited by the subject, as and several IP addresses. Also affected is Las Meninas (film), his first film. I don't really know how to treat this sort of thing, so I will leave it to those of you more experienced in the subject. Thanks. J Milburn (talk) 17:53, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This was reported before on this board, months ago. Nothing was really done at that time. Right now it looks like Ihorp isn't editing much anymore. The best way to proceed would just be to clean up the articles, which are a huge mess, and keep an eye out to be sure that the IP addresses and Ihorp don't get involved any longer. --  At am a chat 15:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

J.E.S.Lawrence
- This article has been almost exclusively authored by User talk:Jeslw who has edited only one other page (see below) and could reasonably be presumed to be the same person. From their Talk Page they look to have been previously responsible for creating /being the main editor of John E.S. Lawrence which was speedily deleted in 2007. The current article was also reported on WikiProject Spam/COIReports/2009, Apr 11 and is only linked from one other article, Human Resources where there is also reference to an academic article which appears to be authored by the same editor and which has been also added by them. Please could someone advise on the appropriate next steps, thanks Tmol42 (talk) 19:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * To be complete here I should have also referred to the request for clarification on Talk:J.E.S.Lawrence from User talk:Jeslw about the tagging of the article as being poorly sourced in October / November 2009Tmol42 (talk) 20:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've left a COI warning on the editor's talk page, and I've tagged the article for COI issues and self-published references. The article, by the way, is now being redirected to John E.S. Lawrence. The article itself is a mess and I wonder about its inclusion, an AfD might be in order. Maybe. There's nothing in GNews about the man, but he has a presence in GBooks and GScholar so might meet WP:BIO. I'm not sure at this point. --  At am a chat 16:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Nicolas Pompigne-Mognard


The notability of this person is questionable, but more importantly, the article appears to be an autobiography. THE AMERICAN METROSEXUAL 16:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Cansolv
This user attempted to create a company article, which I promptly deleted on copyvio and ad grounds, but his account name and username are the same. I left a message on his talk page explain the problem with his username and his article, and suggested he read through WP:USERNAME before doing any more editing. I'm hoping that he will ask for a name change, but as it is better to be safe then sorry I am serving notice of the account here on the off chance its operator attempts to recreate the Consolv company article. If that happens, then block the account. TomStar81 (Talk &bull; Some say ¥€$, I say NO) 19:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I would suspect they are planning to recreate it sometime, as seen at this page where they've recreated the article on a subpage. The real issue is this; does Cansolv (the editor) plan on contributing to Wikipedia in a meaningful way or is their aim merely to promote the company? If the former, they deserve the benefit of the doubt but if the latter they should be blocked. We'll have to see what they do next I suppose. --  At am a chat 19:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess we'll never know, that subpage was speedily deleted as G11 and the user is indef blocked. It's probably for the best, their aims seemed bent on promotion from the beginning. --  At am a chat 21:36, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * True, but I was trying to assuming good faith; even the best of us were new and awkward once upon a time. I suppose that being blocked is for the best, but all things considered I would have preferred we wait and see if he came around. TomStar81 (Talk &bull; Some say ¥€$, I say NO) 22:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

DreamHost


has a long-running dispute over the nature of the information presented. As part of that dispute, one of the other editors and I have been accused of having a conflict of interest. We're both customers of DH, and, the other editor, is a sysop on their wiki. Does this present a COI? Likewise, does declaring yourself as a disgruntled ex-customer present one? Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a totally unfounded accusation. I've followed a bit of the DreamHost dispute, in reading arguments from both sides, both in the recent AfD and on the talk page of the article, though I've stayed out of that dispute. I see that there has been some long-term animosity going on between editors and it's really unfortunate. But WP:COI gives a pretty good idea of what constitutes a conflict of interest in Wikipedia and I can't see even a hint of that here. All that being an ex-customer, or current customer, might mean is that you might have a POV regarding the company from your experiences, but that POV doesn't equate to a COI. Neither does being an editor of a wiki devoted to DreamHost (as long as the wiki isn't run by DreamHost and the sysop isn't a DreamHost employee). Let's set aside for a moment what it is that the COI guideline says and just use a little common sense here. If any of the editors were determined to have a COI based on that criteria, then that would mean that someone who runs a Naruto fan wiki can't edit a Naruto article, or someone who owns or once owned a cell phone from Verizon can't freely edit the Verizon article. With no offense to any editors involved, that's possibly the weakest claim of a COI that I've seen on this board and if that claim was accepted it would set a dangerous precedent as to who could and couldn't freely edit certain articles on Wikipedia. Not to mention that people who have had direct experience with a company or product are often going to be the people most interested in editing the article, or most able to make informed edits in the article, and as long as they follow WP:NPOV no harm is done. On the contrary, telling such people that they can't contribute to the articles would cause many articles to go dormant. --  At am a chat 21:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll also add that I read the bit about accusing Scjessey of a COI because of "compensation". As long as he isn't specifically paid to promote DreamHost there shouldn't be any COI, just being compensated for referrals isn't that unusual. I fail to see the logic; so supposedly Scjessey intends to keep the Wikipedia page free of criticism, to make it easier to get his friends to join the service, so he can get some cash, that's the suspicion? That's really pushing it. I have to say, too, with no criticism against any specific editor involved in that dispute but you couldn't pay me to get involved on that article's talk page. It would be like getting involved in an argument between two bitter divorcees. Feel free to quote me over there but I don't want to visit! --  At am a chat 23:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say that. "Disgruntled" is the term used by pro-company editors. Ex-customer is the term used by ex-customers.

Scjessey is a sysop of DreamHost's own company documentation wiki, not of a fan site.

More than this independent editor: recently concluded he edited as though he Owned the DreamHost article.

He benefits financially from the company's success. He promotes their referral codes on his own web sites and DreamHost's discussion forum. Presumably he recommends DreamHost to his web development clients.

He is creator of an off-wiki web site intended to influence or discourage participation, including at Wikipedia, by “outing” personal information and user names of those who disagreed with him.

He recently apologized for recruiting meat puppets in 2006.

In 2007, rlparker, another DreamHost wiki "sysop", defended Scjessey against COI claims, and went on to get hired by the company.

He is known as one of their biggest fans.

He has publicly lobbied the company for a job with them One, Two,   Three.

Distinguishing his edits from an editor paid to edit would be difficult, in my opinion. If this isn't an example of COI, I can't imagine what is, other than editing your own (auto)biography. Judas278 (talk) 23:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * While some of these facts are true, many are false and most are presented in a ludicrously one-sided or deliberately misleading manner. I am not sure "he is known as one of their biggest fans" will hold up to much scrutiny, for example. For the convenience of interested parties, I have created this document (which I have linked-to from my user page) to explain my position. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Judas278, you are doing nothing to advance the position that WP:COI applies here. What you're presenting amounts to saying "Scjessey is a bad person". Even being "one of their biggest fans" doesn't show a COI. Please re-read what is in the guideline. This isn't WP:AN and bringing up a laundry list of misdeeds doesn't have anything to do with a conflict of interest. I'm not at all defending anything that Scjessey has done, or the way he has edited the DreamHost article, all that I am saying is that the specific accusation of a conflict of interest does not seem to apply here. If his edits show that he is trying to own the article, or has a pro-DreamHost POV, those are certainly bad but again don't show a conflict of interest. Either Scjessey would have to disclose that he has a conflict of interest by being associated with the company itself, or you'd have to "catch" him in some kind of close association and nobody has done this. A COI could derive from a person being paid to promote the company (not simply to be paid for signing people up like every other DreamHost customer), or by him being an employee or having any other solid self-interest in the company, but not because he likes the company. In other words, if pushing a POV would directly benefit him there is a COI. No direct benefit, financial or otherwise, can be shown. --  At am a chat 00:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He was one of only a few customers granted sysop status of the company's own wiki. This is a close association. Concrete example: One day an owner of the company says "the wikipedia article for dreamhost refers to our panel pretty negatively". Right away, Scjessey tries to delete the sourced info with the dubious edit summary "removed inaccurate info". Judas278 (talk) 00:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The information was incorrect. I removed it, and later replaced it with properly-sourced, more accurate information. You insinuate that I was performing some function on behalf of DreamHost, but you can offer no proof that this was the case - just a guess. All I was doing was improving the quality and accuracy of the article, which is entirely appropriate. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The article history shows another editor prevented your complete deletion, and subsequent versions were substantially similar to what you attempted to delete. The circumstantial evidence shows you attempted to do exactly what the company owner asked. Judas278 (talk) 01:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Back at Talk:DreamHost, another uninvolved administrator appears to disagree with your interpretation on this specific edit. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The example given here is two years old, correct? Scjessey has admitted his previous COI, and more editors than ever are currently watching and working on this page. A COI tag isn't a scarlet letter, and since I've been watching the page, Scjessey seems to be working for consensus. I don't see what the current complaint is, other than he made a mistake two years ago. This seems like an SPA determined not to let a productive editor live down an old mistake. Dayewalker (talk) 05:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * He wants a job with the company. Being their wiki sysop and defending the company here at wikipedia is part of a demonstrated path to a job. That's a direct benefit he hopes to gain by pushing the POV. Judas278 (talk) 01:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You'd better watch it Judas278, that's close to libel. I'd suggest redacting that ASAP. Look, here's the thing, I'm just a regular editor, my only "qualifications" in this matter is that I have no attachment to that company, the article, or to any of the editors here, and I think I have a decent grasp on WP:COI. Disagree with me or not, but I gave my opinion. Maybe someone else who's uninvolved will chime in. In any case these attacks don't belong here (or probably anywhere else on Wikipedia but definitely not here). --  At am a chat 02:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the advice, but it seems safe to say he has no problem with what's said. Sorry it looks like attacks, but POV pushing happened, and plausible reasons appear. The fact he refuses in advance to boldly state how much he earns from DreamHost indicates it could be conflicting amounts. Judas278 (talk) 05:39, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How much I earn is none of your business, and it makes no difference to how I edit. As a former DreamHost customer, you will also have been enrolled in the same referral scheme (and perhaps still are, since becoming an ex-customer does not cancel your rewards account). It would be no more appropriate to demand an exposure of your earnings than it would be to demand an exposure of mine. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Judas278, he said he didn't have a problem with people knowing that he'd like to work at DreamHost. He didn't "admit" that he's scheming to improve the DreamHost article in some desire to impress DreamHost enough to hire him. Frankly, that's the worst case of a failure to assume good faith that I've seen for some time and it's shameful. I have no interest in any of this mudslinging, but it seems to me that your insistence on a COI is motivated by your personal grudge against him and has no place here. I don't think any uninvolved editor could see your agenda as anything more than that. --  At am a chat 15:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Speaking to Sarek's original question: If anyone involved will realize a real-world benefit from how the article appears, then they have a potential COI. Note that a real world benefit can also involve having the article reflect poorly on the company as well as having appear free from all criticism. Being a self-declared "disgruntled customer" can place one in the former category, but more likely than COI is the difficulty in maintaining a neutral tone if you are admittedly disgruntled. Being the Sysop of the company Wiki, to me, starts to tread the line of "close relationship to the subject", as there is a demonstrable business connection, paid or not. If the wiki is independent of the company, but dedicated to it, then its a grey area... I'd want to review the wiki for how neutrally they present things. (I've seen this wiki referred to both as the company's wiki, and an independent one, so I'm talking in somewhat general terms here).

I tend to see freely acknowledging such connections, as he has done in this case, to be evidence of a desire to contribute in good faith however. On the flip-side, trying to drill into one's motives too deeply treads the line on WP:OUTING, and leads to personal attacks which have no place here.

The proverbial acid test would be to ask yourself (using the general "you") honestly: Do you "want" the article to appear a certain way for any reason other than to provide a neutrally written, factual, verifiable article? Whether another reason is to "get" the company for whatever past reasons, or to make the article balance out with what the company's official line is... any other reason means your interests are split between Wikipedia and another entity. Arakunem Talk 16:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

View by an uninvolved administrator
I think Scjessey needs to be careful not to attempt to overwhelm other editors at DreamHost, and not to become a means for the company to perform any sort of whitewashing. With due care, they should be allowed to continue editing the article. I have seen no recent diffs evidencing persistent violations of WP:NPOV. (But feel free to point them out to me if they might exist). Scjessey has revealed their identity and connections for all to scrutinize. That is a strong sign of good faith. Next, I will look at the Judas account to see how they stack up. Jehochman Talk 17:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Judas278 is a single purpose account that tendentiously advocates an anti-DreamHost POV. They have repeatedly crossed the line into personal attacks and have helped create a battlezone environment at the DreamHost article. I believe they should be blocked indefinitely to prevent further disruption, at least until such time as they agree to change their editing habits. This assessment in no way exonerates the editors Judas278 has been in conflict with. It is quite possible that there have been faults on both sides. Jehochman Talk 17:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * While reviewing Judas, you might want to review about a possible previous account and  that he was "await[ing] direction or questions from Arbitrators or impartial authorities."--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing that out. Yes,  does appear to be related to .  This does look strongly like a single purpose account for harassing and wikihounding Scjessey.  Again, these findings do not exonerate Scjessey from any of their faults.  Jehochman Talk 17:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the comment above. I can assure you that there is no motivation for me to "whitewash" anything, and there is nobody pulling my metaphorical strings. With respect to ownership concerns, I think you will find that I am a very prolific editor on any of the articles on my watchlist, and the small number of regular editors at DreamHost increases my "presence percentage", if you get my drift. With all that said, I would be happy to scale back my involvement once conflicts and disputes have been resolved. Wikipedia is a huge playground, and I have no wish to monopolize the monkey bars when all sorts of other attractions are available! By the way, just to clarify my "sysop" status on DreamHost's wiki - it is almost entirely associated with vandalism problems (spam pages being deleted, etc.). You can see from my recent contributions that my role is very minimal, and I receive no compensation for it (other than the glorious satisfaction of blocking a spammer from time to time). -- Scjessey (talk) 17:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see that Guantanamo247 is a known sockpuppet of a longtime troll on the DreamHost boards. Interesting.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:31, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

VT iDirect
I've been trying for some time now to post an article about a satellite communications company in herndon, va - VT iDirect. This page has gone through several different versions. It started with something that sounded very corporate-like and was obviously getting deleted. I've gone through multiple revisions to make the article neutral and added more sources. Before I repost the article, I wanted to get feedback here so I don't have to go through another round of deletions. Many thanks. User:photoguy11579
 * I just wanted to present some background (I had to do some poking around to figure it out myself. The article has been deleted 4 times, alternatively due to its promotional nature and/or because it was a copyright violation of company literature. The article was at AfD once where it was deleted, but only because of the aforementioned reasons and not because the subject itself didn't merit inclusion. On the contrary, it was mentioned more than once that the article should meet notability requirements for a company, but the article was deleted on speedy deletion terms. It should be possible to recreate the article if done properly. This editor (photoguy11579) does seem to have a COI with the company in question, and was advised to ask for advice here. --  At am a chat 20:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It still looks spammy to me, needs some footnotes per WP:CITE and removal of most if not all of the external links from the body of the article. – ukexpat (talk) 21:34, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback. I've removed most of the links, made it neutral and cited sources.  How does it look now?  I'd like to post it again, but don't want to have it deleted again or run into other issues.  Thanks in advance for your feedback.  User:Photoguy11579  —Preceding undated comment added 14:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC).


 * Can anyone else provide feedback or review the page again? Thanks a lot!  User:Photoguy11579  —Preceding undated comment added 18:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC).

Rawhide Boys Ranch
On (or around, depending on local time) 3 July (a WP:SPA) introduced a large amount of information (approx 1k→11k) copied from the Rawhide Boys Ranch's website (www.rawhide.org) to this article. After a couple of bot-reverts & a revert of mine suggesting COI, this user stopped editing (and was later blocked as a promotional username) and (another, newly-created, SPA on this article) took over restoring the same material, indicating that this new editor was likely a WP:SOCK of Rawhide1683. The article was eventually speedy deleted (now restored to allow me to link to the edit history) as blatant advertising. Bingo478 has now recreated this article, sourced almost entirely to the Rawhide Boys Ranch website. I would suggest that this is fairly strong evidence of COI on Bingo478's part, and suggests that the main purpose for the recreated article is probably WP:ADVERT. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 17:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I would strongly suggest taking this to WP:SPI, it's obvious that Bingo478 is a sock. I'm removing the proposed deletion tag from the article because the deletion is being contested by Bingo478, and you can't WP:PROD an article if anyone has a serious objection. I've restored the G11 speedy deletion tag instead, because it clearly qualifies, and G12 could also apply. --  At am a chat 19:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Other than the COI aspect on this one topic/article, I'm not sure that the sock aspect is really that problematical. It is inherent in blocking a username as 'promotional' (as Rawhide1683 was), that creating a new, non-promotional username is permissible. So what would the effect of a successful WP:SPI be in this case? In any case, the deletion of the article (and thus its edit history) effectively vanishes the evidence of the relationship between the two, making a SPI problematical. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 19:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I gave it some more thought, along the same lines you've suggested. They just created a new account with a non-promotional username, which is appropriate. In that sense, the new account isn't even really a sock, it's more like a username change, so a sock investigation isn't appropriate. It's probably not appropriate to call the editor a sock puppet either. The article has been deleted in any case. I hope that settles this issue. --  At am a chat 19:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It has occured to me that Bingo478 was created five days before Rawhide1683 was blocked, making its creation far less innocent-looking. In any case, given the continued shenanigans over this article, I have made a SPI report at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Rawhide1683. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 03:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The article has just been recreated again, via a request at WP:AFC, in an apparently identical form. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 19:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. See Articles for deletion/Rawhide Boys Ranch. - Dank (push to talk) 19:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The IP that requested the WP:AFC recreation (and had also edited previous incarnations),, is registered to "RAWHIDE INC". HrafnTalkStalk(P) 05:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Serena Harragin

 * - Promotional account, as the user has edited exclusively in Serena Harragin, while including unsourced edits on other actors' articles by wikilinking to her page. User reverted my cleanup and neutrality of the article (since restored) without any explanation in the edit summary. sixty nine   • spill it •  20:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sharrigan has added, then re-added some inappropriate external links to the article, which you've done a good job of cleaning up. Your warnings on their talk page seem appropriate to me. If they protest your changes or continue to try to revert, further warnings would probably be warranted; it might merit a mention at WP:AIV if they persist past a final vandalism warning. It does depend on the exact nature of their edits, however. Repeatedly adding inappropriate external links after warnings could certainly be considered vandalism. --  At am a chat 17:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

FNC, Inc.
→ See also: 

Could someone please take a look at the article on my user page. I have revised it several times due to conflict of interest and open marketing or something like that. I am open to any suggestions and my main concern is contributing this bit of information.

Please let me know if I should make more changes or if I am now complying with Wikipedia. I feel like this article is good to go now but I can't be sure.

Wfgillis (talk) 13:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Wfgillis first asked me for advice about this in May. I restored and userfied the original FNC, Inc. page then as User:Wfgillis/FNC draft, but he (she?) did not edit it during the following weeks and I re-deleted it in June.
 * I invite other administrators to use the view/restore function via the page log to compare previous revisions of the article to the current userpage version. — Athaenara  ✉  17:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * [see this log for user page — Athaenara ✉  17:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)]
 * It's tough. I took a look at it, and while it's not worded to be incredibly promotional, it just doesn't seem all that "encyclopedic". It's clear you put a lot of work and thought into it, but honestly if you're involved with the company the best way to comply with Wikipedia is to not try to get the article created at all. The advice I see given to editors with a conflict of interest who want to have an article created, is that if the company is notable enough an article should appear. The real question is, "Why?" Why do you want the article created? If you were an editor with no ties to the company, who wanted to add information about it just because you thought it would be of interest to readers, then you could proceed, but if you want to add it because you think that the world should know more about the company, that's advertising no matter how you write the article. Having said that, your desire to comply with Wikipedia's COI guidelines is commendable. I'll look up your company to see if it's notable per WP:CORP. I'm not saying your company shouldn't have an article, not yet, but it doesn't seem right for you to create it. --  At am a chat 17:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your assistance. My main concern is complying with Wikipedia's guidelines.  This is not about marketing or trying to get the name out there, that part is already taken care of.  My main reason was to inform.  So I was wondering about the language.  What do you think I could change to make it more "encyclopedic".  Now that I understand more about Wikipedia, and what it stands for and its goals, I simply want to comply.  Thanks again for your help and I am hoping we can continue to move forward with this.
 * Wfgillis (talk) 18:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, I just had my userpage deleted. Not sure how to fix this but I thought by putting my info there, I could make it accessible to admins to view and help me.  Let me know if I did something wrong.  Wfgillis (talk) 18:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, it's great that you are being cooperative, thanks for that. Here's my suggestion... Go to the Articles for Creation page. Put in your request, and explain that you are an employee of the company and feel that the article deserves to be included but that because of COI concerns it isn't appropriate for you to create it yourself. If someone agrees with you that the company deserves to be created then they can do so without any COI concerns. From that point on, if the article is created, you can certainly suggest whatever changes you feel should be made on the article's talk page, if you see something incorrect that should be removed or changed or if you have additional information to add. Generally it's fine if you notice blatant vandalism on the main article page you can remove it, as well as fixing minor typos, but editing the page beyond that might be questioned due to your conflict of interest. I wish you luck! --  At am a chat 21:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Integration Point, Inc., et al
has created a whole pile of articles using sources which are either written by Integration Point, by employees of Integration Point, or seem in some other way to be related to Integration Point:
 * (previously deleted)

In addition, s/he has copies of most of these (or parts of them) in his/her userspace:
 * User:Jmiles1107/10+2
 * User:Jmiles1107/FTA
 * User:Jmiles1107/SCC
 * User:Jmiles1107/DTS
 * User:Jmiles1107/GCS
 * User:Jmiles1107/EV
 * User:Jmiles1107/Integration Point, Inc. (I moved this one there as it was previously at his/her userpage)

It appears likely that Jmiles1107 is somehow directly connected to Integration Point, and is therefore here only to promote the company and closely related topics created by this account. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Terrymacro
See Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents, where it has been suggested that this situation might be more profitably addressed here.  JN 466  20:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The user has two separate probably conflicts of interest: one regarding Prem Rawat and the other involving Astrological age. However the former is the more contentious issue. The editor in question was a senior national official in the Rawat movement, and more recently served as a director of a major facility owned by the movement. His current biography, which he's linkt to repeatedly, says that his "major passion in life is utlising the techniques of self-knowledge as revealed by Maharaji." He insists that he does not have a conflict of interest when writing about the topic because the particular entity of which he was an officer no longer exists, and therefore he has no financial stake. This appears to be incorrect in a couple of respects. First, apparently the entity is still in existence, only its name has been legally changed from Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital. Second, conflict of interest is not limited to ongoing financial involvement. He was among the early followers of Prem Rawat, he has been a member of the movement for at least 34 years, and he was a senior official in two separate organizations, most recently in the 1990s. The user has edited in issues directly related to his involvement, including commenting about the validity of a legal affidavit involving the organizations of which he'd been an officer and his colleagues. At the time he made those remarks he had given no indication that he was even a member of the movement, much less a former senior official. This is exactly the kind of undisclosed conflict of interest that this guideline is intended to avoid. The editor asserts that he is only interested in neutral editing, but I have not seen any edits by him that do not support a "pro-Rawat" POV. I have requested that he disclose his COI, and that he follow this guideline on Prem Rawat-related articles. Does anyone feel that the user does not have a conflict of interest?    Will Beback    talk    22:13, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * First the easier one: linking to self-published materials on Astrological age may have been inappropriate, if there was no wider talk page consensus to add the material, and/or the sources are not in line with WP:RS. If any of the editor's publications comply with WP:RS, he should be encouraged to put them on the talk page, disclose his being the author and await talk page consensus for adding them. If he did that, then there is no problem.
 * That he managed a facility for a faith group ten years ago is a less clear-cut case. WP:NPA says that affiliations should not be held up to invalidate another editor's views, regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or not. Based on this principle, his faith being a minority faith should not weigh in our decision. Judging otherwise lays us open to charges of religious discrimination and stifling free speech ("the encyclopedia anyone can edit ... except members of religious minorities!"). So we have a situation where someone, ten years ago, held a (volunteer?) position in a particular faith group, and now wishes to contribute to WP articles on that faith group. I am not sure that is an automatic COI.  JN 466  08:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * For reference, here is a recent LA Times article commenting on the free speech issues involved.  JN 466  08:30, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A COI is bad enough, but COI+POV=FUBAR. It seems like he's being dishonest, if he's editing to paint the subject in a positive light, had very strong ties at one time, and yet even now asserts his belief in the teachings while claiming that he can be neutral. That Scientology thing just goes to show that "religious tolerance" shouldn't be an issue; that ship has sailed. If this encyclopedia is going to be neutral it can't cave into every organization (religious or not) that wants an article to be more positive. Besides, that's a straw man argument, who in this issue is bringing that up? --  At am a chat 08:34, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it is a fairly obvious principle that an editor's religious beliefs, sexual orientation etc. should not per se be held against him. So saying that he "even now asserts his belief in the teachings" is about as relevant as saying that an editor "even now says he is gay". If there are specific problems with his editing in this topic area, that is another thing, but those have been merely asserted, rather than demonstrated.  JN 466  08:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with stating that you believe in something, as long as you aren't evangelizing. It's his direct involvement as a major player in the movement that presents the COI. If he was no longer a part of that movement any longer, that might ease the COI but his statements that he is still "passionate" about it help reinforce the issue. You're trying to change this issue into something it's not, nobody is attacking anyone for their beliefs. --  At am a chat 17:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I refer you to Durova's comments below. I assure you it is quite normal for people who espouse a religion – any religion – to feel passionate about it.  JN 466  18:41, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As you know, Prem Rawat doesn't espouse any religion, so Terry's religious beliefs are *still* not the issue here. Hiding his affiliation and editing a group of articles about someone he's had long relationship with, and pretending not to know about things he was actually involved with, are the issue here I think. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 18:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Atama said it was Terry's feeling "passionate" about his belief in Rawat's teaching that was the problem. I merely pointed out that passionate feelings are commonplace in the religious domain – people feel passionate about Jesus, Allah, sufis, gurus, scriptures, saints, whatever the case may be. Also, let's remember that the direct managerial involvement, such as people have alleged here, was 10 to 25 years ago. We might agree that "Joe Cardinal" in the Vatican has a COI; but does he still have a COI if he comes to Wikipedia ten years after he last held an official position, just because he still feels passionate about Jesus? I'd tend to say, No.  JN 466  19:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This argument still isn't about religious beliefs, so I can't agree with your reasoning in pursuing this line of defense. On the one hand, you are trying to link Terry's "belief in Rawat's teaching" with religion, and in the next sentence you dismiss the argument as a simple case of a manager 10-25 years ago. Which discussion do you want to have? Also, as you already know, Terry was running Rawat's 800 hectare conference center (Amaroo) in the 90's, that wasn't 25 years ago. And I have to wonder how do either of these arguments help explain Terry's "Hiding his affiliation and editing a group of articles about someone he's had long relationship with, and pretending not to know about things he was actually involved with" as I asked above? -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 19:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Atama said it was Terry's feeling 'passionate' about his belief in Rawat's teaching that was the problem." That's just false. I said it was his connection to the organization that was the COI, and I cited the fact that he has drawn attention to the fact that he is still "passionate" about the teachings of the organization to be indicators that the COI isn't just something in the distant past. Please don't try to escalate things here by falsely misrepresenting other editors' comments and trying to derail discussion. Nobody cares about the specifics of Terrymacro's beliefs; heck, I don't even have enough familiarity with "Prem Rawat" to even have an opinion about it. --  At am a chat 20:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If a guy had a secular management job in the Vatican ten years ago, and says he believes passionately in Jesus' redemption of mankind, and the power of prayer, then that constitutes a POV, but doesn't in my view constitute a declarable COI for every article on Catholicism. I see the present case as a fairly close analogy.  JN 466  20:32, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If that person had posted links to his biography that said he was a devoted and passionate Catholic, I'd feel the same way. But again, it's not his Catholicism that would be a concern, it would be his connections to the Vatican. The only reason why I feel that Terrymacro's beliefs have anything at all to do with the issue is because I feel it weakens the case that his involvement was in the past and has nothing to do with any bias today. On the other hand, while I do feel that the COI is a concern, I disagree that it's strong enough that he should be banned from working on the articles in question, but just that the COI should be noted and taken into consideration when NPOV is questioned regarding his edits. If he was still director to this day, or was directly involved in another organization with similar affiliations I'd feel more strongly about it. --  At am a chat 21:26, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Atama, does the potential for there having been a close working relationship established in the context of the initial COI, even one established some years ago, with one or more individuals who are currently under Wikipedia sanction, change your perspective of how the COI should be treated ? I'm not sure how, in the light of reticence on the part of those involved, evidence of this can easily be demonstrated, I'm just asking in principle about how such a potential relationship might affect any decision.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 09:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Nik, you too had close personal involvement in some of the same matters that Terrymacro was involved in, on the opposite side.  JN 466  11:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * To answer Nik, I don't believe in guilt-by-association. If there was meatpuppetry involved, where it could be demonstrated that Terrymacro was doing things on behalf of people who were, say, topic-banned, or even getting advice on how to edit, that would be bad. But no, even if Terrymacro had a close relationship with those people years ago that wouldn't be any stronger. That's often one of the problems with establishing a conflict of interest, you either need an admission or a real "gotcha" to establish that there is one. --  At am a chat 17:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What you have stated there, Atama, is as close to my view as makes no difference.  JN 466  11:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Jayen, given the findings against you at Requests for arbitration/Scientology, I request that you not involve yourself further in this dispute. As for Terrymacro, I think either an indefinite block or a topic ban may be required if the editor does not agree to steer clear of areas where they cannot edit neutrally. Have they been notified of this thread? Jehochman Talk 18:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what the Scientology arbcom case has to do with this discussion. As you brought it up, the findings "against me" in that case noted that 17) Jayen466 (talk · contribs) has made many constructive edits in the Scientology topic though this has been offset by edit-warring apparently to advance an agenda. The edit warring concerned the Rick Ross BLP, where I was too eager to retain a mass of sourced material that was unflattering to Mr Ross, a fact I acknowledged in the arbcom case and apologised for. I've been asked to stay away from articles about Mr Ross, which is fine by me, and am free to contribute to the Scientology topic area as before, unlike most other editors who took part in that arbitration – as you know, there were several dozen topic bans.
 * However, if you want to bring up arbcom findings, I would have thought the Rawat cases are far more relevant. I have been a named party in both Rawat arbitrations, and am one of the few editors regularly active in that topic area to have been neither admonished or topic-banned in either arbitration, nor blocked under an arbitration remedy. You may contrast that to and, who are the editors asserting that  has a COI. Both Will and Nik were admonished in the recent case;  has recently been blocked for edit-warring in the Rawat articles (albeit under exceptionally tough revert rules), and  has in the past received a one-month topic ban for edit-warring in the Rawat topic area. Perhaps you were not aware of this, but I think this information is rather more relevant.
 * Looking at the substantive issues, the editor we are talking about may have operated a conference centre related to the movement.
 * Compare that, say, to the retired manager of a prominent Anglican conference facility who wishes to contribute to articles on the Anglican Church. Does he have a COI, because he ran an Anglican conference centre?
 * How about the retired manager of a Catholic boarding school. Does he have to declare a COI before his first edit to a Catholicism-related article? (I note not even the talk page of Catholic sex abuse cases has posts accusing editors of COI because they are Catholic.)
 * How about a lesbian who formerly ran a prominent lesbian and gay community centre in Los Angeles and wishes to contribute to LGBT articles. Does she have to declare a COI before her first edit to the LGBT topic area? While all straight people wishing to contribute to LGBT articles obviously don't have a COI, because they represent the majority?
 * If you'd say that none of these editors has to declare a COI before editing Wikipedia, then what exactly is different about a former functionary in Rawat's movement? Where do you draw the line – Mormons are okay, but Jehovah's Witnesses aren't? What's the criterion? Whether Jehochman likes the group? The size of the faith group? The visibility of the position the person held? Or would you say that all ex-functionaries of mainstream movements do have a COI? Have there been precedents? Because whether you like it or not, we are very close to religious discrimination when we treat editors differently depending on their religious affiliation, seeing things as a COI for adherents of a minority group, yet treating them as editors' private affair when the faith group is more mainstream. WP:NPA tells us to treat mainstream and non-mainstream affiliations the same. As the blogger quoted in the above LA Times article asked, "Why let Christians edit articles on Christianity?"
 * The criterion here should be evidence which demonstrates that this editor has edited non-neutrally, promotionally, clearly putting outside interests above the interest of the project. Yet you are prepared to dish out an indefinite block or topic ban simply based on religious affiliation and the assertion of non-neutral editing by editors who themselves have been reprimanded for their conduct in the relevant arbcom cases (not to mention that one of them has had off-site disputes with this faith group).
 * To answer your question, Terrymacro was notified of this thread by Will. Regards,  JN 466  20:36, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * To comment in general terms upon the most pertinent issue Jayen raises, yes I support handling COI issues that pertain to religions the same basis for all religions. Jayen seems to imply that new religions are being singled out.  Mere adherence to a religion does not constitute conflict of interest.  For example, the Joan of Arc vandal was banned for socking, disruption, misuse of sources, etc. but not for conflict of interest--since there was no evidence that he had any official connection to the organizational structure of the faith whose POV he was pushing.  Durova  273 21:30, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Adding a quick thought here, though. Occasionally the argument does come up in discussion that strong belief in something itself constitutes a conflict of interest.  I regard that as a misreading of the distinction between POV and COI, and in my observation that occasional mistake has crossed a broad number of subjects; it doesn't seem to divide down the line that Jayen draws.  Although if that did indeed happen, such a thing would be problematic.  Durova  273 21:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think you're making a nice distinction that it would be well worth keeping in mind. I argued the way I did here because I just cannot imagine indef blocks and topic bans being suggested, absent any examination of editing behaviour, because someone ran an Anglican conference centre ten years ago.  JN 466  22:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In 2006 the site did ban an evangelical Christian who was trying to build a ministry through Wikipedia, and in 2007 the WikiScanner detected edits coming from the Vatican. The latter made news at that time, although I'm not aware of an continued problem in that regard.  If evidence arose to that effect I'd pursue it.  Yet within a discussion of conflict of interest, religion is only one minor specific case.  Suppose a former executive of the mining industry were discovered to have been deprecating mention of adverse environmental and health effects of mining?  Conflict of interest is the guideline over which Wikipedians have the least control: often, editors allow themselves to suppose that a nuance in the guideline wording or a local discussion can settle the matter.  Really it's a real world concept.  Durova  273 22:42, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a world of difference between a run-of-the-mill follower of an huge and old religion and a high official in a small new religious movement. It is an incorrect analogy to say that Christians don't have a COI when editing articles concerning their church. "Joe Parishioner" may not have such a conflict, but "Cardinal Joe" would. Likewise, a low-level employee in a company may not have a conflict, but a senior executive almost certainly would. Further, Terrymacro hasn't confined himself to issues where his conflicts are minimal - he interjected himself in a discussion over the reliability of an affidavit concerning the exact organization that he helped lead and which involved people he knew very well. Did he reveal any of those connections? No, he presented himself as an uninvolved and impartial editor. That kind of deception is just what this guideline is meant to prevent. An even more general principle is that advocacy is not allowed. The editor has written in his current biography that his greatest passion is his devotion to the teachings of Prem Rawat. That's a wonderful thing for him, but that is not a suitable frame of mind for someone to make neutral edits to that topic in an encyclopedia.   Will Beback    talk    23:28, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * A couple of points that may have been overlooked:
 * Terry Macro recently proposed a new, neutral lede for the PR article which contained criticism of Rawat. [] This does suggest that he is able to edit neutrally.
 * With all due respect to Will Beback, I don't think he is the best person to comment on another editor's frame of mind. I have worked on two Rawat articles so far. It has been difficult in both cases due to what I consider to be Will's anti-Rawat POV pushing. The most recent violations of edit restrictions were the result of an edit to the lede by Will. See discussion of edit here []. --Zanthorp (talk) 02:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Zanthorp, according to whom is Terrymacro's proposal neutral? To my view it is not neutral at all. If you would like to address my POV, then I suggest starting a new thread.    Will Beback    talk    02:54, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Address your POV in a new thread? That's certainly an option. Generally I think its better to try to work in a cooperative, rather than an adversarial way. Maybe I'm being naive. --Zanthorp (talk) 14:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This brief comment is to acknowledge that I am fully aware of the COI against me, and I have read all the above arguments for and against. I will be responding to the above ASAP. Terry Macro (talk) 02:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Jayen also neglects to mention that there are more than 2 editors that feel TerryMacro has a confict of interest here. I have also commented about it on Terry's talkpage. I also find it more than a little too convenient that TerryMacro removed all the links from his talk page that linked him to Prem Rawat *3* minutes before editing on the Prem Rawat articles. That may not prove a COI, but it sure as heck doesn't smack of a lot of honesty either... In my country, our politicians have a saying, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck"...quack quack. :-) His blatant, and honestly, hard to believe, interpretation of the COI page here (which I corrected here) as well as his attitude after multiple editors have discussed the situation with him here would seem to indicate that he is not willing to do anything about this himself as he sees no COI. Regarding Zanthorp's claim that Terry created a neutral lede, 2 of eight editors thought so if you read the talk page here, coincidentally I'm sure, they were TerryMacro and Zanthorp.-- Mael e fique (t a lk) 03:16, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not 8 editors, only 5, and the main issues discussed were chronology and Nik's point about the accuracy of sources. Please get your facts straight. --Zanthorp (talk) 13:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Bad math, there were at *least* 8 active editors on the talk page around the time this came up, 2 (you and Terry) liked it. Even if you were correct (which again, you aren't), 2 out of 5 does not make for evidence of your statement that "This does suggest that he is able to edit neutrally.". Please try not to muddy the waters further with claims that it's now about chronology. That's not what we are discussing here and please get your facts straight. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 16:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Good math. 5 editors were involved in that particular discussion, and the main issues discussed were chronology and accuracy of sources. Those are the facts. --Zanthorp (talk) 01:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If I say "Bad math" again, does that make me right? As I said in my previous edit summary, anyone who cares to, can go to the talk page and look at the history and count all the active editors around the time that "neutral" lede (the one before Terry edited out the worst parts) was written and see that other editors (oh, I dunno...say *8*!) were active on the page at that time. Absence of an opinion in that particular section cannot not be construed here as an agreement that his lede was neutral, they may simply have agreed with the ones that did respond, and since it was clear that this lede was not very good, chose not to beat a dead horse. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 03:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nik Wright2 mentions below how TPRF was the ultimate owner of the conference facility of which Terrymacro was director. One of the principle changes that Terrymacro proposed to the "neutral lede" was to expand the material devoted to TPRF, adding that it was established as "a vehicle for humanitarian work and to spread his message." This organization is very obscure compared to the DLM or EV, yet he was seeking to expand the space devoted to it. His proposed text does not, in itself, show that he can edit neutrally on this topic.    Will Beback    talk    10:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The TPRF addition to the lede you are referring to was merely a condensed version of a passage from 1983-2000 section of the article. Your objection noted. Leave it in or leave it out; it isn't a major issue, and somewhat off topic here anyway. The point being overlooked is that his suggested edit included unaltered criticism of Rawat. --Zanthorp (talk) 13:54, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the original lede proposed by Terry, I see lots of promotional material including a plug for TPRF. Where is this "unaltered criticism" that you refer to? The last sentence, which has been in the lede for over a year, and wasn't even part of the paragraph we were working on? -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 17:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, the last sentence of Terry's proposal was unaltered criticism of Rawat. You have restated my point. But, you comment, "lots of promotional material" is totally misleading. I think this discussion may be reaching the point of incivility. Lets not continue it. --Zanthorp (talk) 01:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagee, and stand by my statement that the original "neutral lede" of Terry's contains lots of promotional material (did you even bother to re-read it?!). Is it the idea of someone disagreeing with you that you find incivil? Or something else? Either way, I suspect that if you were to stop inflating your arguments so that they seem to be convincing, it's likely I would stop responding to your misrepresentations, and we wouldn't have to continue it. I guess it's up to you. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 03:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Facts Relevant to the Case in Question (Divine Light Mission and Associated pages)
Concern with broader problems of COI policy is obfuscating the issues as they relate to Terrymacro as an editor of Wikipedia. The key facts are:


 * 1. The focus of the question of COI is the article Divine Light Mission, and from that article  Prem Rawat and other related articles in which Divine Light Mission is an integral part.


 * 2. Divine Light Mission is not a single entity but the name given to a number of nationally discrete entities. In the US, the organisation (now renamed Elan Vital) is a non profit Corporation, recognised by the IRS as operating as a Church; however there are ample sources reporting representatives of Elan Vital/DLM stating that:it is not a religion.


 * 3. In Australia the Divine Light Mission (now also renamed Elan Vital) was created as a membership Association with corporate status, it does not claim religious status.


 * 4.The editor Terrymacro has held the position of Director (i.e a publicly and legally accountable person) of a Corporation owned by the Australian Elan Vital/DLM. Terrymacro has made various contributions on the talk pages of the DLM and Prem Rawat articles about the history of the DLM, even claiming that it was a defunct organisation.


 * 5. The Corporation of which Terrymacro was a director, operates a Conference Centre, which has been developed at the cost of several tens of millions of dollars, on land, stated by that Corporation’s ultimate owner, to be vested with The Prem Rawat Foundation. TPRF has provided support funding for, and has personnel links with the publisher of a controversial source which Terrymacro has recommended as a reference for articles about Prem Rawat.


 * Conclusion: there is no obvious issue of religious freedom or entitlement in this case. The matter hangs on the public and legal position held by an individual who edits Wikipedia. Whether the relevance of that position is rendered void by the passage of time is a question to be answered. Additionally, as Terrymacro, in attempts to influence article content, has made some dubious claims about the organisation in question, it might be thought appropriate to at least request clarification from him over any continued association with connected Corporations, their officers and others active in the promotion of those Corporations or of Prem Rawat. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 09:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It really doesn't matter whether Rawatism is a religion or not. As you know, it is generally classified as a religious movement in reliable sources:, etc. There are multiple reliable sources backing up Terrymacro's assertion that the DLM is "defunct": I'd be prepared to concede that Terrymacro would have a COI with regard to the conference centre he once managed, but am not convinced that it should go further than that.  JN  466  19:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You're not seriously suggesting that arguing 'sources' is a basis for sorting out a COI ? The fact that 'some' individuals have classified Rawatism a religion, doesn't make it a religion. In this case, is Terrymacro saying his connection to the Ivory's Rock Conference Centre is a religious affiliation, or that Prem Rawat is a religious leader ? The issue is simply one of Corporate record - the Colorado SoS Business listings and the Australian SEC listings provide definitive documentation that the US and Australian Divine Light Missions are still functioning as they were created in 1971 and 1976, in both cases under the name Elan Vital. It doesn't matter how many incompetant or lazy Sociologists of Religion that you quote to the contrary - those Sociologists are wrong and the Colorado SoS and Australian SEC, are right. Quite honestly Jayen I think you've tried to hijack this issue for some other agenda, and what you are prepared to concede is  irrelevant. The question is whether Wikipedia is going to allow itself to be used by sectional interests or whether COIs are going to be properly challenged.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 19:36, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Nik, as you know, there is exceptionally broad agreement in reliable secondary sources that Rawat led a religious movement. Anything else, even if a DLM spokesman said it, is a fringe view (actually, what the spokesman said was that it was a "church" rather than a "religion"). Your original analysis of two primary sources – one the DLM's articles of incorporation in the United States from 1971, and the other an Australian name change document – concluding that the DLM in the US and Australia "are still functioning as they were created in 1971 and 1978" is contradicted by the entire literature on the topic, which see the "DLM" and "Elan Vital" stages of the movement as distinct, not least because Elan Vital only had a fraction of the staff that the old DLM had, closed all the ashrams where followers lived communally in the DLM days, dispensed with the explicitly Indian religious trappings that marked the DLM stage, etc. Will explained the problems with primary source analysis to you here.  JN 466  20:13, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Regardless of the fact that the DLM and EV are the same legally entity (at least in the US and Australia), and regardless of the fact that many sources treat them as separate entities, there are also numerous sources that treat them as part of the larger Rawat movement, which has contained many subentities and businesses. The editor has held seniotr positions in two of those entities, was an early follower in what was a fairly small religious movement, and has been a follower for at least 34 out of the 38 years that the "new" movement has had a presence outside of India, and still professes that it is his great passion. Those factors combine to paint a picture of someone who is deeply involved and committed, both officially and personally. Since Jayen also opined on the affidavit matter, I'd like to hear how he thinks that it's OK for someone intimately involved in the background of the dispute to comment on it without making any disclosure.    Will Beback    talk    21:05, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's okay to be committed to a religious path and contribute to WP, isn't it?
 * Having said that, I agree with you, after rereading the affidavit, that Terrymacro may have been intimately involved with its background. The affidavit related to a lawsuit which the conference centre was a party to. I have already conceded that Terrymacro would likely have a COI for any matters related to that specific centre.
 * Terrymacro's responses at the RS/N thread are here: He didn't actually say much beyond reiterating WP policy, and asking editors to look at the affidavit in light of that policy. It should also be noted that at the time, he had made less than 350 edits to WP. Wikipedia always encourages new editors to be "bold"; I think we do not do enough to warn new editors that their "bold" actions may be brought up as evidence against them years later.
 * As for the significance of the affidavit, I believe the situation can be summarised as follows: an ex-follower had written a very negative article about Rawat in an Australian weekend magazine, which included a number of exceptional claims. He was sued and by his own account lost several court battles related to the article, some of which the Australian conference centre was a party to. He subsequently stated in the affidavit that his article had been designed to defame Rawat, that he had been encouraged to make it as negative as possible (by a group of people that includes active WP editors), and that he had taken liberties with the truth in it.
 * To my mind that history cast doubt on the article's status as a reliable source for a BLP. If an author expressly recants, and loses court cases, it is not a good sign, and certainly disqualifies such an article as a source for exceptional BLP claims. Repeating its allegations would expose Wikipedia to the same legal risks that the author suffered. That is all the significance I accord that affidavit; being an affidavit not referred to in secondary sources (as far as I know), it is not itself a reliable source for statements about third parties and should not be used as a source in Wikipedia articles.  JN 466  23:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Jayen, it's important that you get your facts straight. The author of that article was not sued because of any of the content of the article.  The legal action was completely unrelated to the article he wrote.  Furthermore, the publisher of the article was never sued by Prem Rawat or his organizations, nor was the author or any of the sources for the article sued, myself included.  The publisher of the article never retracted one word of that article and it stands as a published piece today in a reliable source.  Moreover, the link that you provided has already been deemed long ago to not be a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia because it is a discussion forum.  Your comments above are far afield of the subject of Terry's COI.  The whole point of any COI is disclosure by a party (or lack thereof in Terry's case) by a person of their conflict of interest on a given subject matter.  It's really quite a simple ethical concept.    Sylviecyn (talk) 13:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the response and the acknowledgement that Terrymcro has a COI regarding he conference center where he was a director, and that he violated that COI when he commented in regard to the affidavit. (I don't think the affidavit and the magazine article are otherwise relevant to this discussion, beyond the fact that Terrymacro has had a close, and undisclosed assoication with the author.) Why does he not have a COI in regard to the owner of the conference facility, TPRF? Why does he not have a COI in regard to the organization for which he was National Finance Director, the #2 official? As far as the issue of religion goes, do you acknowledge that there is a difference between a Christian today, one who holds no position of authority in his church, and either an early disciple, like Saint Peter, or a senior official, like a top ranking cardinal?    Will Beback    talk    00:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Pleasure. I have commented elsewhere in this thread today, taking my cue from your "Joe Cardinal" example, that the closest analogy I can think of would be someone who held a job in the Vatican ten years ago, and remains a passionate Christian today. Note that quite apart from people who held a church position ten years ago, we have even active vicars in Wikipedia working on articles about bishops, archbishops, church history etc., without accusations of COI arising ipso facto. Yes, they too would have a declarable COI if they write or comment about their own church where they are the vicar, but not if they write about the archbishop of Canterbury or the Queen, even though they're organisationally linked to them.  JN 466  00:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If I saw an entry on this noticeboard about a church official writing about their church then I'd be concerned. In this instance, Terrymacro has worked on the article about the organization in which he was the second ranked official in Australia, the Divine Light Mission. As for the other analogy, wouldn't you consider Saint Peter, were he alive, to have a conflict if writing about Jesus Christ? He was a senior follower, there almost from the beginning. That type of situation is covered in WP:COI.   Will Beback    talk    01:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, how do we know that we have vicars editing actively? Is it because they disclosed it? that's part of what this is about, making a reasonable disclosure, as called for by the guidelines, so that a user's contributions and input can be judged in light of their COI.   Will Beback    talk    01:23, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Terry is Terry, not St. Peter; Nik is Nik, not Judas. Let's note that with these proceedings, reasonable disclosures have been made. I hope and trust they are as complete as they should be. Perhaps we can leave it at that and move on?  JN 466  12:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree that reasonable disclosures have been made. A new editor, seeing a posting or edit, should be able to find out that Terrymacro is not an uninvolved or impartial observer. This page will be archived before long and then it would take concerted sleuthig to find. At the moment, there is no disclosure on Terry's page or on the talk pages he's been contributing to that indicate his depth of involvement or POV. If he'd simply add a line like, "I've been practicing Knowledge for over 30 years and served the movement in various capacities", or something similar, that would go a long ways towards resolving this. The guideline links to this disclosure as an example.     Will Beback    talk    20:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've blanked-out the COI/Disclosure statement that I recently placed on my user talk page because I'm angry that no one is going to require TerryMacro to make a clear disclosure about his two COIs. This COI Noticeboard page is just absolutely ridiculous.  What on earth is the point of having a COI noticeboard when it has no teeth?  And why should I voluntarily expose details about my private past on Wikipedia, when someone like TerryMacro has held high-level positions of authority and decision-making in the Rawat organizations, but he isn't going to be required to declare a COI, disclose his former involvement and bias, or in any way be limited in his editing in the areas of his very clear COI?  Have you people never heard of the word recusal?  It's a simple legal concept that doesn't need reinvention by Wikipedia.  Furthermore, over the past five years here I've limited my editing on the Rawat series of articles to only commenting on the talk pages, and not making any major edits to the articles (unlike others who have made plenty of edits when they even had a declared COI!) that were substantive and especially controversial.  The only edits I've attempted to make on the articles were to correct grammar, punctuation, and style.  When are Wikipedians going to get their stuff together and demand that people with COIs limit their editing on the articles where they have an obvious conflict of interest?  And I don't want to hear from anyone about "single purpose accounts" because that's just a red herring and another excuse for certain people to try to use negative innuendo to smear fellow editors.  I simply cannot understand why it's so utterly difficult for Wikipedia editors to understand a simple, basic concept of conflict of interest and apply it!  It's not as if this is a new concept to the world.    Sylviecyn (talk) 15:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Completely understandable Sylviecyn. While I would strongly encourage everyone with an obvious COI to make a disclosure statement on their talk page, it's grossly unfair and misleading/prejudicial to have those that play by the rules go up against those that refuse to. If Terry doesn't think he has a COI, based on his reasoning, it doesn't seem possible that you have one either. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 17:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not asking for anyone's support. You may not want to associate yourself with me, since there is a NRM/cult faction, including Jayen, who considers me a hate-group member and will do anything to obfuscate and throw wrenches into rational discussion to avoid any critical writing about their NRM/cult leaders.  But, as far as I'm concerned this entire, very strange ineffectual COI noticeboard page is a bunch of baloney -- it's a farce, a total waste of everyone's time.  And guess what?   I have full intentions of editing the Rawat articles (and not just the talk pages anymore) just like everyone else has, who is an adherent of Prem Rawat, who have claimed so much ownership over over five years with all of their self-claimed entitlements to do so, using sockpuppets and fake IDs.  Go ahead and block me over it, like I care. Sylviecyn (talk) 18:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Response to Allegation of Probable COI by User:Terrymacro Part A
Will Beback alleges two probable COI, one pertaining to the Astrological Ages, the other involving Prem Rawat and Divine Light Mission topics. Though most attention is directed at my involvement in the latter two topics I am first addressing the alleged COI involving the Astrological Ages otherwise it may be used to support by insinuation the alleged COI on the Prem Rawat and Divine Light Mission topics. I have a long term passion for the astrological ages, and I am very knowledgeable in the topic. I initially became a Wiki editor for the purposes of assisting in editing of this topic as part of the Wikipedia astrology project. Before I learnt the rules of Wiki extensively, I was made aware that the main aim was producing material with a NPOV. I was not cognizant at the time of the details of COI, as initially there are far too many rules to take them all in and I never discovered the WP:COI section as a new editor. Though I probably would have modified my editing approach if I had my current knowledge when I was a new Wiki editor, the material I produced was a NPOV and any semi alert editor on these topics would have readily seen my strong association with the topic.

For the whole of the period March 2008 to May 2009 my user page clearly indicated my association with the subject. Nearly all of my significant edits occurred in 2008 up until August when any other editor wishing to contest my edits could easily see my historical associations with the subject. However I worked in a non-combative and collegial fashion as, at the time, I believed this to be the spirit of Wikipedia editing. I had advised Wikiproject astrology on 20 March 2009 about what I was doing in the topics, and my user page clearly showed my association with the subject matter. There was no excessive self-citation. Any content included that involved me was notable. No peer in Wikipedia astrology group has objected to the content and I entered the following information on the Wikiproject astrology page: “My research speciality is the astrological ages and I am widely published on the subject. I also interface with acheoastronomers on the subject.”

In retrospect I probably should have made some appropriate statements on the Talk page but I was unaware of this at the time being a new editor. During and after the period of my most intensive editing, a wide range of editors have also edited the page without edit wars and it was not until Will Beback followed me to this topic that the editorial disagreement intensity has significantly increased. This followed an edit I made on the Prem Rawat topic that was obviously not to Will Beback’s liking.

It is also worth noting as a side issue that Will Beback also followed me to another topic, the Age of Aquarius, and deleted on July 1 2009 a section detailing my published views on the Age of Aquarius. Matching various astrologers in the same section with Age of Aquarius in Google results in an average number of hits to me compared to the other astrologers included in this section. That topic no longer provides the former comprehensive divergent viewpoints on the Age of Aquarius and is missing the inclusion of one notable astrologer in the field. Wikipedia will be less due to this.

The only consequence of my editing of the astrological ages (and Age of Aquarius) is that the articles are far superior. Though I was unaware of the details of WP:COI in early 2008, in retrospect I did not contravene the following "Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest. Using material you yourself have written or published is allowed within reason, but only if it is notable and conforms to the content policies. Excessive self-citation is strongly discouraged.”

In conclusion, I don’t believe that the allegation of probable COI made against me in relation to the Astrological Ages topic is anything other than the side result of long term editorial disagreements on the Prem Rawat, Divine Light Mission and related topics. It seems that these editorial wars are common in many Wikipedia topics but I did not experience this at the Astrological ages and Age of Aquarius topics until very recently. I think my record at the Astrological Ages (and Age of Aquarius) topics demonstrate that in circumstances where I could have easily abused the situation and produced biased and weighted articles involving self-promotion, that instead I produced balanced, NPOV and far more explanatory material compared to what existed previously. Terry Macro (talk) 06:28, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Post script: I have been extensively referring to Wiki for a long term project I am engaged in. I have noticed that many topics are edited by people with a high calibre of knowledge in the topic.  I have not done any research to ascertain if these same editors bring a POV, but as an educated guess, I am sure that this is often the case.  I have brought a POV to the Astrological Ages and Age of Aquarius and other related sites.  My extensive and long term study of the subject matters means that I have a high calibre of knowledge on these subjects.  Though I have a POV I know how to present any material associated with my POV in a NPOV way as I am very knowledgeable on all aspects of these topics and have a mature understanding of the situation.  In my experience, Wiki depends to a great extent on editors like me that have a high level of knowledge on the subject matter. The fact that I have probably been stalked, hounded and outed by a Will Beback does not inspire me to waste my time in ensuring that the Astrological ages, Age of Aquarius and related topics maintain their high level of integrity and continue to improve. Already the Age of Aquarius topic is reverting to the gibberish which I saved it from over a year ago.

It is unlikely that Wikipedia will get another editor with my calibre of knowledge on the subject matter in the Astrological Ages area. Why would someone like me put up with the gross immaturity clearly demonstrated by Will Beback? Just because Will Beback cannot get his own editorial view on the PR, DLM and related sites using legitimate Wiki methods, he abuses his impressive and high knowledge of Wiki rules and guidelines, and hiding behind these he engages in intimidating, bullying and harassing behaviour to further his own prejudicial ends. If Wiki is to be taken over by legalistic editors of Will Beback’s style at the expense of editors that have extensive knowledge of the subject matter, then Wiki can only suffer as a result.

Will Beback’s behavior towards me discredits Wikipedia. He did not come to the astrology topics I focus upon to aid or assist me, but to plainly attack me. However I am sure that over a period of time Wikipedia will evolve approaches to deal with such abuse as I am sure it cannot afford to have keen, inspired editors that can produce high quality NPOV on mainstream or arcane subjects harassed and hounded out of Wikipedia. I have been informed that I can lodge various complaints but I am neither a legalistic editor, nor do I have the time. I have taken great pleasure in voluntarily helping Wikipedia produce high quality articles in my area of expertise, and I do not blame Wikipedia for Will Beback’s abominable behaviour. Terry Macro (talk) 05:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

ASTROLOGICAL AGES AT WIKIPEDIA from Terry MacKinnell, US (note: The US was a mistake by ISAR) As a member of the Astrology WikiProject team I have been editing the Astrological Ages topic at Wikipedia. …. The Astrological Ages topic was in a bad state. My main task has been removing from the main body of the topic fringe, extremist and oddball ideas and opinions about the ages. To smooth this transition I have created a sub-section called ‘New, Alternative & Fringe Theories' and moved much of the existing content to this sub-section. I have rewritten 80% of the Introduction and Overview but have left the rest much the same except for cleaning up.
 * One extra point re the COI leveled against me in relation to the Astrological ages topic. The following is an excerpt from the weekly ezine of the International Society of Astrological Researchers, one of the largest astrological organisations in the world, with its headquarters in the USA.  Apart from being emailed to all of its members, it is also accessible by all the members of the UK based Astrologers Association.

I have followed a simple approach to the editing. The bulk of the content is focused upon those ideas of the astrological ages that have consensus in the astrological community (i.e. the ages proceed in retrograde fashion compared to the normal order of the zodiac). Considerable attention is given to majority opinion about aspects of the ages where there is dissension but there is a fairly defined majority opinion on the subject (i.e. most astrologers think that Jesus Christ marks the beginning of the Pisces age). Minority opinions are mentioned lightly as these are generally points of view that are established but only by a minority of researchers (i.e. each astrological age coexists with its opposite sign so that the Aquarian age is actually the Aquarian-Leo age). Nearly everything else gets relegated to the new fringe ideas sections which are basically new or innovative ideas not yet established (i.e. Walter Cruttenden's hypothesis that precession of the equinoxes is not caused by the wobbling earth but by the solar system existing within a binary pair of stars where our own Sun is one of the stars - this has not been added to the topic yet).

The main criteria for adding material to a topic at Wikipedia is that it is backed up with references to published books, articles etc. The inclusion of opinion without reference to a publication in the public domain can be challenged and it will be deleted - this is Wiki policy. There is still a lot of material at the Astrological Ages topic that falls into the area of opinion or speculation without references and will be deleted in the future. There is still a lot of work required at this topic. Apart from requiring more references for the early ages from the Ages of Leo onwards, the topic needs a history section and a sub-period section. If anyone has time to look at this topic at Wikipedia and discovers errors, omissions or you want to make a comment about how to improve the site you can email me … Ref: ISAR International ezine Volume 485 April 13, 2008

The purpose of including the above extract is to show that whether or not I have transgressed Wiki’s COI guidelines in this instance, I have widely publicized what I was doing both within and without Wikipedia. I did get some input from some astrologers recommending some further inclusions indicating they were knowledgeable of this specialist area. No one complained that I had produced a distorted view of the Astrological ages. I believe firmly that I have produced NPOV for this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Terrymacro (talk • contribs) 06:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Adding links to your blogs and creating an entire section devoted to your ideas was excessive, but the other, smaller mentions you added were less problematic. I think if you just avoid citing yourself in the future then that'll be fine. The notable views of MackInnell are likeliest to be those that are cited in secondary sources. You can post those sources on talk pages with a request that other editors add relevant material. That's a good approach in any COI situation, including Prem Rawat.    Will Beback    talk    06:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Terry says above that "I was not cognizant at the time of the details of COI,...Though I probably would have modified my editing approach if I had my current knowledge". But just two days ago Terry said that "In my understanding a COI can only exist when someone is presently on the payroll of an article subject, or presently carries functions in this organisation(s).". I doubt you were ever on the "Age of Aquarius" payroll, so why would you "have modified my editing approach if I had my current knowledge"?. After editing since March 2008, you still don't seem to understand the COI page. It makes sense that if you don't understand it, you may not realize you are in a COI. I hope this process can shed some light on this situation. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 17:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding your postscript, Terrymacro, if you edit alongside Will Beback a little longer, you will find that the motives and behaviour you have attributed to him above are not what he is about. I say that as someone who often fails to agree with Will. ;) Assume good faith, and you will not be far off the mark.  JN 466  12:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Response to Allegation of Probable COI by User:Terrymacro Part B
In summarizing Will Beback’s argument for my alleged probable COI it appears that according to WB I run foul of three specific areas.

1. I was a former senior official in the PR movement and more recently served as a director of a major facility owned by the movement

2. I have a long time association with the movement

3. I commented upon the validity of a legal affidavit affidavit involving the organizations of which I had been an officer and his colleague

Point 1. – Firstly, does a former official of an entity have a COI when issues related to that entity arise in Wiki? My understanding is that a current official would probably invoke COI, but a former official, and from nine years ago? There was nothing in WP:COI that I could find to support this. Where does Wiki draw the line? Secondly the claim I was a ‘high official’ of the ‘movement’ is WB’s claim. My role in the 90s at a commercial conference centre associated with the movement was finance manager due to my commercial experience. The conference centre was managed independently of Elan Vital (EV) and I played no role in EV whatsoever other than my involvement with the day to day operation of the commercial conference centre. It could certainly be construed I was a ‘high official’ of the conference centre, but I was not a high official of EV in the 90s, and in the movement at large I was at best a ‘functionary’. Furthermore I find it hard to believe that my former role in an out of the way outpost of the movement in the 1970s could evoke a COI thirty years later.

Point 2. – Does a long term association with a movement invoke COI? Does a short term association with outside interests associated with the subject invoke a COI? WP:NPA says that affiliations should not be held up to invalidate another editor's views. Point 3. - I possibly did contravene COI by commenting on an affidavit involving my former employee. This affidavit is dated 2007, six years after my involvement, and all I did was reiterate WP policy, and asked editors to look at the affidavit in light of that policy. I will leave this point to Wiki officialdom but when I did make the input on the Talk page I was relatively new to Wiki. With my present knowledge in retrospect I probably should have not have made a comment on the affidavit or I should have stated a COI in relation to the document.

In conclusion, my initial major understanding is that underlying much of the Wiki guidelines is the necessity to produce articles with a NPOV. I think I have adequately demonstrated my ability to produce a NPOV at the Astrological ages and Age of Aquarius topics as examples. My last proposal for a NPOV lede to the PR topic included as the last sentence: “Rawat has been criticized for a lack of intellectual content in his public discourses[9][17] and for leading an opulent lifestyle.[10][“ I have been accused of only making positive edits for the subject, but I have made so few edits on the PR page, and I don’t believe I have made any edits on the DLM page, that no one could reliably state anything about my pattern of editing on these topics. Terry Macro (talk) 03:17, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The independence of the Amaroo/IRCC facility from Elan Vital is questionable. This website seems to blur that distinction further. (Note that the site's content is copyrighted "Elan Vital", but the domain is registered to IRCC.) As for Australia being an "out-of-the-way outpost", due to the IRCC facility that continent has become a center of movement conventions. Regarding this project, at least three, and perhaps four, of the editors on the Prem Rawat topic over the last year have been followers from Australia, at least two of whom were close associates in the movement. Two of those editors have been topic banned in part due to their combativeness. So geographic isolation does not improve editorial neutrality. Terrymacro's work on astrology, which has involved adding a long reference to his own work which he described as "innovative", is not a good example of NPOV editing. Again, there is more than enough evidence that Terry has had substantial, longterm involvement with the topic, and that it is a topic he feels very strongly about, to show that a COI exists. The guideline itself shows how to deal with such a COI and how to avoid problems. Does anyone see a reason why Terrymacro shouldn't follow that guideline and its common-sense suggestions like disclosing ones COI?   Will Beback    talk    21:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I wonder if we shouldn't ask the various ex-premies to have such COI statements on their user pages as well then, just to level the playing field. Some of them are former functionaries too, with similar personal involvement.
 * Long-term, I have my doubts that the topic area will ever be peaceful, as long as both premies and ex-premies go at it. I recall that the arbcom's Scientology decision topic-banned the most POV-driven people on both sides of the dispute. That topic area has become a lot more civilised since.  JN 466  22:22, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that everyone who has held a position of authority in the movment, regardless of their current views pro or con, should disclose their involvement. I am concerned that new users are appearing who may be making further efforts to conceal their COI, including denying any involvement in the movement whatsoever. This topic has seen too much of that kind of behavior already.   Will Beback    talk    22:36, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The proposal that Will makes seems eminently sensible. Could this requirement be included on article talk pages ? I have made a COI statement on my talk page and addressed some points raised by Jayen on the page. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 08:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have also made a COI and disclosure statement on my talk page. Please note that I don't have any intention of making regular contributions to the Rawat talk pages (I don't edit the main article spaces) but I think that it's reasonable to expect editors to make disclosures about their past and/or current employment with organizations that support Prem Rawat.  Sylviecyn (talk) 14:38, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I haven't made a COI or disclosure statement as I'd never heard of Prem Rawat until last year or had any interest in religous movements. However, in the spirit of openness I have expanded my user page to provide some background to my involvement in this topic. --Savlonn (talk) 15:05, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It does not really matter if Will says that "everyone who has held a position of authority in the movement, regardless of their current views pro or con, should disclose their involvement" as this is not Wiki policy - and i seriously doubt that Wiki would even consider going down that path as it will create a nightmare for Wiki. Rules are like laws, every new law increases the number of criminals, every new rule increases the number of rule-breakers and possible conflicts. I am sure Wiki has no plans of going down the path of conflict escalation. Will's proposal, as usual, is biased in favour of Will's position.  Because Will and some other editors represent, one way or another, formally or informally, the interest of outside groups, associations or whatever opposed to the subject, you can bypass the need for any disclosure because opposition group(s) to the subject are in general informal and probably don't have officials of any kind, which does not make its adherents and sympathisers any less passionate than supporters of the subject.  Wiki will never be able to prevent people coming to Wiki with a POV and this does not appear to be Wiki policy unless its a clear violation of COI with someone employed by the subject as part of the subjects PR department or significant capacity etc etc.  The only problem with a POV is if it undermines Wiki's requirement for a NPOV. The necessary end result needs to be a NPOV for the success of Wiki.  From what I understand, contentious disagreements between opposing blocs or opposing points of view about the subject matter are very common in Wiki. If any new rules are made, it would have to address this polarisation, but I am sure Wiki is not interested in increasing the number of rules. What I think is necessary is promoting the spirit of Wiki.  The goal of producing high quality NPOV articles that reflect positively upon Wiki in the wider community must be the primary goal - not the production of biased or weighted articles representing the interest of outside interests, whatever shape or form these outside interests may take, or whether these outside interests align with or oppose the subject.  It is the Wiki spirit or ethos to produce NPOV articles that is the most important point.  I believe I have captured this spirit of Wiki in my editing of the astrology topics referred to in the COI, and I have every intention of the same in the PR, DLM and associated topics.  I am looking forward to the results of the COI, which I will accept either way, as I support the Wiki spirit, ethos and process. Terry Macro (talk) 02:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You have disclosed on your user page your involvement in astrology. Your involvement in the DLM and Prem Rawat is just as substantive if not more so. Is there a reason why you are not making a similar disclosure?   Will Beback    talk    21:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My understanding of Wikipedia rules is that it is not required in my case as in general, I don't have a COI in these topics. Terry Macro (talk) 05:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And there were and remain a number of reasons why my astrological background was included on my User page and no mention of any other involvement in any other area. Firstly there is my privacy, such as I am sure you expect re your religious involvement.  Though my understanding of COI in the astrological area may or may not have been adequate in hindsight, I was instinctively aware I was including material that could be construed as `too close to home' so I plasted my background in the astrology topics for any semi-alert editor to see and on the Wiki astrology project page. If I had read the suggestion in the Wiki guideleines in detail of also including this information on the Discussion pages of these astro topics i would have done so. I follow the 'read rules, street directories etc when all else fails' approach.  However without this detailed knowledge of the Wiki suggestions re COI, I broadcasted far and wide what I was doing at the astrology topics as i thought this necessary just from common sense.  The other main reason for the limitation of personal details to the astro topics, apart from privacy, is that I am not in the habit of prosletising in the 'religious' area.  What I enjoy engagement with is my personal choice, I don't think it is polite to push my experiences or viewpoints on such matters onto other people.  Finally I realised some time ago that putting PR or K on the same page as astrology was insinuating that there was some connection between the two when no connection existed.  It could be contrued that astrology was part of the parcel associated with PR which is not the case.  Though from my casual observations PR does not ridicule astro, he certainly satirises it, and definitely I have never heard PR encourage anyone to take it up etc. Therefore I have removed as much as possible any online references to both subjects in the same area as I don't wish to mislead people in thinking that there was a relationship between the two areas.  If the Wiki powers-to-be deem that I did in fact have a COI, I would have to create a second user account to keep these two areas separate if I was to continue editing in the astro area.  I hope that answers your query. Terry Macro (talk) 07:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)Terry Macro (talk) 08:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Several involved editors and at least one uninvolved editor have all said they believe you have a conflict of interest. You continue to assert that you do not, and that you have edited neutrally in the past and will continue to do so. The WP:COI guideline specifically says that editors who have a potential COI should not remove sourced material from their topic of interest. See WP:COI. If Terrymacro engages in deleting sourced material, especially any that is critical of his field of interest, then I will seek further remedy. I hope that he is now fully familiar with WP:COI and the core policies, and that there won't be any future problems.    Will Beback    talk    01:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds fair enough to me.  JN 466  01:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So what would an edit like that look like? Exactly like this? Would that be an example? Or because he self-reverted shortly afterwards, with the reasoning that "OK, I have undone my edit for the sake of avoiding edit warring" it doesn't qualify as an obvious COI edit? He didn't revert because of COI concerns, and only after a mediator raised the "edit war" issue. Who makes the rulings on these COI's? I've seen a lot of words used to defend Terry's non-COI on astrology-related issues, which is by far the least obvious COI to me, where are the reasons he doesn't have a Prem Rawat COI? If a National Finance Director for his movement with a staff, and continued student of Prem Rawat's (oh ya, and he also ran an 800 hectare conference center of Rawat's for years, until as recently as 2001, as well), doesn't have a COI, we may just need to go ahead and mark COI for speedy deletion since, apparently, no one will qualify imo. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 21:25, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There's generally no "ruling" to make regarding a COI. This isn't an administrators' noticeboard, it's just a place where people can ask for advice on how to handle COI issues. WP:COI itself is a guideline and a tentatively-worded one, you'll notice there are no absolute rules in it, only suggestions. That's because having a conflict of interest itself isn't necessarily bad, it's what an editor with a COI does that matters. The COI is just something to take into consideration when reviewing an editor's actions, and it makes infractions seem that much more of a problem. For example, if two people add pro-POV language into an article but one of the two was the owner of the company and the other person was an involved person, the company owner might be dealt with more harshly. --  At am a chat 22:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, Maelefique is a single-purpose account in Wikipedia, focused on Rawat articles and usually voicing the critics' view. His interest in working on Rawat-related articles here appears to be greater than his interest in all other Wikipedia articles combined.
 * Single-purpose accounts have been a long-standing feature with the Rawat articles, on both sides of the debate, though especially so on the "critical" side of it.  JN 466  22:36, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ...And? What does that have to do with this debate? We're supposed to be discussing possible COIs, not how wide an editor's interest is in various Wikipedia topics. Being a single-purpose account shouldn't discount their opinion, why would you bring that up? --  At am a chat 22:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * WB, you have a distinct advantage over me as you are like a Wiki lawyer while I feel like a member of the general public that has accidentally stumbled into the legal chambers of some high level law firm who have told me I will be sent to jail for muddying their doormat on a rainy day. Therefore I will take what you have said piece by piece to get it right, and if I am wrong you or someone else can correct me.  If I understand what you have said is correct “that editors who have a potential COI should not remove sourced material from their topic of interest” means that if I am accused of COI infractions I am guilty until proved innocent?  Once accused of a COI I must behave like I have a COI?  Now I am not a lawyer but this does seem a little strange.  I have read the WP:COI and I don’t believe that it applies to me, though I am leaving it open re John McGregor’s statutory declaration as it is not clear to me.  Is it Wiki policy that someone is presumed guilty until they prove themselves innocent when accused of a WP:COI or is just being charged with a WP:COI makes me guilty of a COI???  Who or how is it decided that I have a COI?  It seems strange that I am presumed guilty as the default, and must behave like I have a COI just because I have been accused of a COI by some editors.  Perhaps I need a Wiki lawyer to defend me? Terry Macro (talk) 08:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If your peers at any time in the future should examine your editing and conclude that it has a tendency primarily to serve outside interests, then they will probably see that as confirmation of the accusations made here, as per WP:DUCK. In my view, some of those (not Will) who are accusing you arguably have COIs themselves, because they are involved in offsite advocacy and are SPAs here. I guess it doesn't matter much right now; it looks like we are entering formal mediation, so let's focus on that. But note that every single edit you make here is retained in Wikipedia's memory and may be brought up in evidence against you to demonstrate non-neutral editing, even months or years later.  JN 466  11:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Terrymacro, the nature of Wikipedia noticeboards is that they are a place for uninvolved editors to give their views. So the judgment here isn't from me or Jayen466, it's from folks like Atama. As for being able to edit neutrally, the line I remember from my youth was "by their fruits ye shall know them". The details of a conflict of interest are ultimately unimportant, as the proof is in the editing.   Will Beback    talk    12:05, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Jayen466, I am trying to reconcile what you and WB have said and WB's previous statement that if I continue to remove sourced material WB said he "will seek further remedy". What is this remedy - perhaps an Inquisition?  The COI notice board appeared to behave like a kangaroo court - from my perspective it seems extremely hard to believe that that was it? Do we count the yeas and nays and the greatest number wins? Are involved editors removed from the vote? From my perspective, WB makes his COI allegations against me, all and sundry respond, WB pronounces judgement?  Somehow I feel an ingredient or two are missing in this process. Terry Macro (talk) 08:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not a "kangaroo court"; it's not a court at all. You're not on trial, Terry. As it says at the top of the noticeboard, "This noticeboard is for reporting and discussing the application of the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest guideline to incidents and situations where editors may have close personal or business connections with article topics." That's it. The "remedy" would be taking things to dispute resolution, which can eventually lead to something resembling a "court" of sorts, but that generally occurs when other dispute resolution methods have failed. --  At am a chat 16:00, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Atama, thanks for outlining the process, you are the first editor to provide me with a clear picture of the process. I must admit it was a little dissappointing as I thought the current process was some kind of dispute resolution. Terry Macro (talk) 07:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This matter is becoming split between three threads (I've responded more fully at Talk:Prem Rawat). Mediation on the topic is starting and I believe we'll be discussing this there, so perhaps it's time to bring this thread to an end if not a conclusion.   Will Beback    talk    09:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea, let's move the discussion to Talk:Prem Rawat as its been getting diffcult to synchronise the various discussions on the same subkject. Terry Macro (talk) 09:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Typingwestern015 self-advertising

 * is using his userspace as a webhost for a raft of tables and other data about a science fiction novel he is writing, and has now inserted ads for the novel into the talk pages of a couple of articles. See the links from his talk page for the painful details. Orange Mike   &#x007C;   Talk  13:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's obvious that this editor is abusing Wikipedia, possibly because he doesn't understand our policies. He's using it to promote his novel, as a place to work on his novel, and as a place to request feedback from other Wikipedia users about his work in progress. Especially telling is his complaint on his talk page that nobody is visiting "his site". Someone seriously needs to set him straight about the fact that Wikipedia is about the encyclopedia and only about the encyclopedia and nobody has the freedom to use it to advance any personal projects they have that are seperate from the encyclopedia. Trying to make his subpages look like stub articles isn't going to hide what he's doing; those aren't potential articles, they're notes for his personal work. I'm sure there are other places on the web that will accomodate what he's doing but Wikipedia isn't one of them. --  At am a chat 16:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, okay, I get it. It isn't right to post personal info on articles or spam on any page. I never unknowingly plagarized before. I almost decided to quit, but no. I will press on with only editing useful articles, instead of creating useless beyond belief articles. In fact, delete these articles for me, as they are also associated with my novel:

User:Typingwestern015/The War Amongst the States/The Disadvantage of Digital · User:Typingwestern015/Nuclear volcanic meltdown · User:Typingwestern015/The War Amongst the States/Timeline · User:Typingwestern015/Zantrax System

If it's possible, can I still post novel info on just my master user page? If not, I will not. I am sorry for this problem. But remember, my science fiction novel will still be published, so don't forget that. Typingwestern015 (talk) 19:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's something of a grey area. WP:UP gives you an idea of what should and shouldn't be allowed on your user page. Specifically, WP:UP gives you an idea of what shouldn't be there, and it includes "substantial content ... that is unrelated to Wikipedia". So I would be tempted to say a brief blurb about your book is fine, the key word from above being "substantial". I think the fact that you're an author is relevant to Wikipedia, I see people talking about their pets and favorite TV shows on their user pages so it doesn't necessarily have to be all about Wikipedia things. Just don't go into long detail about the book and you're probably fine. Somebody else might take a stricter view and demand you not mention it at all but I don't think you'd have to worry about it too much. Oh, also if you want those subpages deleted (which is probably a good idea) just put on the top of the page and that adds a template that says the author of the page is requesting a deletion. An administrator should come by before long to delete it. Thanks for coming here and commenting! --  At am a chat 20:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * A couple of sentences to the effect that you are writing a book would be OK, a detailed summary or the novel itelf, definitely not. It matters not that the novel with be published, so long as you do not use Wikipedia to promote it, directly or indirectly. – ukexpat (talk) 20:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I forgot to add, good luck with the novel, I hope it's a best-seller! --  At am a chat 21:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * And if it is, someone will probably write an article about it! – ukexpat (talk) 21:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. But the problem is, where can I put up my book info? Do I have to start a new website or something like that? Typingwestern015 (talk) 03:00, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * All I can tell you is not here, here means wikipedia and the wiki project as a whole. If your book is a best seller and someone wrote about it in multiple reliable sources, then an wikipedia page could be set up for your book.  If not, you can use a blog or website or facebook or something other than wikipedia.  You can also try wikia, a lot of people started their own wikipedia-like site over there, I do not know their policies, but seems like you can at least try. MythSearchertalk 16:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You're in Madison, right? Do you attend the local S.F. fan gatherings, from the Wednesday night meetup to OddCon and Wiscon? That's where you'd make the industry contacts. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  17:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I live in Tulare County, in California, so I can't be in Wisconsin anytime soon. So far, the only book written about anyplace near my location is Lucifer's Hammer, in Porterville, California, and, at that time, Porterville became a swampy marsh. It will just be a matter of time before Tulare County is recognized for something good. Typingwestern015 (talk) 01:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)





Robert Redfern makes a living selling Serratiopeptidase, and has bee blocked repeatedly for attempting to use Wikipedia to advertise this product.

He has recently continued this behaviour. .

Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 09:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you happen to know why there's a sockpuppet template on that editor's user page? I can't see where an SPI case has been opened and there are no indications of which accounts are supposed to be sockpuppets. --  At am a chat 21:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think he might have IP socked to avoid a block. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)