Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2010 August 4

4 August 2010
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User:Tarun marwaha/Mehr Lal Soni Zia Fatehabadi


On 15.04.2010 Mr.Radiofan had nominated the article- Mehr Lal Soni Zia Fatehabadi for its deletion on the ground that the notability of this subject was not clear. On 22.04.2010 Mr.Ranakiri had suggested the re-writing of this article from scratch followed at least by one verifiable WP:RS source. And,Mr.Boing! said Zebedee had on the same day even offered to copy edit it to bring it in line with WP:NPOV and WP:MOS provided it survived the Afd process.

My article was deleted on 30.04.2010 by Mr.Sandstein who upheld the nomination made by Mr.Radiofan and the observations of Mr. Ranakiri.Of course,at my request Mr.Sandstein had later on very kindly userfied the article so that I could improve it for its eventual restoration to the main space. Since then I have worked on it,rewritten it from scratch, taken care of the neutrality and notability aspects, and have even sought a deletion review on 26.05.2010.I have tried to act on Radiofan's suggestions and reduced the article's length.For establishing the subject's notability I have clearly made a mention of eight secondary and tertiary sources that address the subject in detail, which sources are all reliable i.e.they allow verifiable evaluation of notability, and are independent of the subject who finds significant coverage in these reliable sources. I have based my article mainly on these eight sources.Those sources are:-

1)Budha Darakhat - book written by Dr.Zarina Sani M.A.Ph.D. of Nagpur University, published in 1979 - entirely devoted to the aim of examining and evaluating the life and works of Zia Fatehabadi with the intention of identifying his contribution and place in Urdu literature. She was not a relative or disciple of Zia Fatehabadi.http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Sani_Zarina_34069371.aspx

2)Zia Fatehabadi – Shakhs aur Shair – published in1977 and reprinted in 1983 - A collection of essays written by Malik Ram and several other noted literary personalities examing and evaluating the different aspects of the life and works of Zia Fatehabadi with the intention of identifying his contribution and place in Urdu literature.http://books.google.com/books?q=zia+fatehabadi+shakhs+aur+shair&btnG=search+books

3)Detailed editorial write-up alongwith many rare photographs, on Zia Fatehabadi’s life and works in Aaj Kal, Feb.1986 issue, Vol.43 no.7, published by the Govt of India Publication Division Urdu.

4)Zia Fatehabadi Number – Obituary Issue of Hamaari Zabaan Oct.1986 Vol.45 no.37 published by Anjuman-e-Taraqi Urdu Hind (Delhi) – contains numerous articles and views alongwith many rare photographs.

5)Obituary Issue of The Monthly Biswin Sadi Oct.1986 Vol.no.10 published by Biswin Sadi Publications (P) Ltd.- contains editorial write – up with rare photos.

6)Zia –e- Urdu, a special issue published by Saphia Siddiqui in Nov.1981 – contains several aricles written by noted Urdu writers of Britain on life and works of Zia Fatehabadi, with photos.

7)Zia Fatehabadi’s Thoughts – article written in English by Nilanjan Mukhopadhayay published in The Sunday Statesman 17.08.1986 issue alongwith photo.

8)Doctoral dissertation (1989) of Dr. Shabbir Iqbal M.A.Ph.D.of Mumbai University.

Additional information not made part of the article but essential for knowing the subject better:-

I do have in my possession certain books and articles written by the subject and written by others on the subject, they are all in Urdu. It is not possible for me to translate all of them to be placed before you. You have already cautioned me that I am not to conduct an original research but to stay neutral and simply establish his notability based on incontestable reliable sources. This I have done faithfully.

As is evident from the little material before me the subject had gained an eminent position in the Urdu literary circles and field, and also in his official life. His contribution is distinct. But, as has now become known the subject was by nature a reserved and publicity – shy person, he was not in the habit of projecting his own image and works, preferring to remain aloof, therefore, did not mix freely and mostly avoided attending poetry symposia etc. Yet, he was asked to be the Chief guest and preside overseveral seminars. Thus, the first Presidential address contained in his book," Masnad-e-sadaarat se ", was delivered on 27-01-1952 at Presidency College, Chennai, and the last one i.e.the 25th, on 19-06-1982 in Sapru Hall, Allahabad, as the Chief guest of Anjuman Ahal-e-adab. I have also been told that in his official capacity he had remained on the Board of Directors of some commercial banks as a nominee of the Reserve Bank of India and had also gone abroad as member of Government delegations. In fact to the Sunday Statesman (17-08-1986) he had talked about his strict service condition which did not give him liberty to publish his own works freely. It is only after his retirement from service of 35 years that a great bulk of his writings came to light. He had really rued the time he had lost.

As is reported on P.25 of " Aajkal " Feb.1985, we learn that on 06.03.1976 Zia Fatehabadi was conferred the title of " Siraaj-e-Sukhan " by " Adaaraa Bazm-e-adab ", Kamti,Maharashtra. 0n the same page the fact of the publication of " Muzaameen-e-Zia " (essays of Zia) and " Zia Fatehabadi ke khatoot " (letters of Zia Fatehabadi) has also been recorded but so far I have not been able to lay my hands on these two books and therefore do not know when they were published or by whom though I have included them in the main list.

Zia Fatehabadi's first poem was published in " Chaman ", Amritsar, in the year 1929 heralding his appearance on the Urdu literary stage. His first essay was published in " Adabi Duniyaa ", Lahore,Drama number of 1935 and his first short story " Andhere " in " Asia Weekly ", Agra in 1946. During 1935 and 1936 his translation in Urdu of " The trial and death of Socrates " was published serialised in " Monthly Asia ", Meerut and " Monthly Kanwal ", Agra." Aajkal " reports that he had also been a member of the Managing Committee of the Delhi branch of " Anjuman-e-Taraqi Urdu ". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarun marwaha (talk • contribs) 04:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Userfication of this article was the right step here and the article still needs more work before being moved into the main article space. While this subject may meet notability guidelines, the references in the current article are a confusing mess.--RadioFan (talk) 11:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has a problem with systemic bias—we cover subjects well-known in English, but our coverage of even German or French topics is patchy and our coverage of non-European language topics, such as the one being considered here, is poor. Most Wikipedians lack the knowledge to assess articles of this type and I believe that input from another Urdu-speaking Wikipedian would definitely be helpful. I agree with Radiofan when he says the subject may well meet notability guidelines, but it's somewhat hard to tell from this userspace draft.  To me, those references appear ambiguous because they aren't in a conventional format specifying the work by ISBN.  Quite correctly, and as requested in WP:V, Tarun marwaha has given us translations of foreign-language material, but the formatting of this is also unconventional; and the article is written in flowery and florid language quite different from the plain words style we're accustomed to on Wikipedia. Generally I would say that once the references are formatted conventionally and the more literary wordings simplified (e.g. "breathed his last" → "died"), and subject to input from an uninvolved Urdu-speaking Wikipedian who can confirm the accuracy of the translations and the reliability of the sources, I would have no objection to this article being moved to mainspace.—S Marshall  T/C 11:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The flowery language is a big problem here and it continues to be a problem. I worked with this editor a bit a few weeks ago on this article and made similar suggestions but the problems remain.  If some reliable sources can be identified clearly, preferably those available online and in English, others could help edit this article but at present it appears to be one editors efforts only.  So in short we've got at least 3 editors other than the originator (perhaps 4) who feel that the subject mater could meet guidelines and who are willing to help bring this article up to Wikipedia standards but we still lack clear reliable sources.--RadioFan (talk) 00:25, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * KEEP THE ARTICLE. I know nothing on the subject matter; BUT I did a simple search in "google books" and the guy is VERY NOTABLE in the Urdu language. What seams to be the problem?  Many articles are not written in correct Wkipedia fashion and they exist.  This guy is notable and shoud have an article. Callelinea (talk) 05:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't a deletion discussion, the article hasn't been deleted, it has been moved under the original editor's user account for further refinement. This discussion is about whether or not the article is ready to be moved back into the main article space. If you read above I think you'll find that we are all in agreement that the subject likely meets notability guidelines but the current article isn't ready for main article space yet. There are concerns about the non-encyclopedic tone of the article and about the verifiability of the references. If you have specific references you feel would help create an article that meets notability guidelines, please share them here. Also if you do know someone who knows something of the subject mater, please point them here as someone with some expertise is needed here.--RadioFan (talk) 19:08, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Sir,

I do not know whether I am permitted to contact you while the review is on. Please forgive my intervention. As I understand, presently the main concern is about the non - encyclopedic tone of the article and in particular about the verifiability of the references. Please consider this fact, the article placed before you has been my first attempt to post an article on the main space and I do admit I have erred and also learnt a great deal in that process.

Firstly speaking, I had drafted this article in accordance with the kind of English I had happened to learn at the school-level at which stage impressed by Dickens and Doyle I had become fond of using compound and complex sentences. As it truely is, I am not a regular writer of English prose, and therefore, I am not conversant with the different English styles, needs, etc. This will take some time.

Secondly, I have already said that the references I have drawn and relied upon are from the various books and periodicals which I could procure from the people who knew the subject and had kept preserved those published materials. And now, I assure you that the translation of the citations done by me is correct and there is no reason to doubt its truthfulness.Only because the published material relied upon by me,whose complete particulars I have clearly provided in detail, are not online while they do exist, please do not conclude that the article is lacking clear reliable sources.Hereat, I must once again say that the article is certainly based on reliable third party (independent), published sources with a reputation for fact- checking and accurracy, and this person was indeed the subject of (still readily available) published secondary and tertiary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent and independent of the subject.Please forgive me for writing such a long note.Thanks. Regards.Tarun marwaha (talk) 04:58, 7 August 2010 (UTC) -->
 * OverturnThe argument for deletion was basically that the supporting material was not in English. This is contrary to policy.   DGG ( talk ) 02:54, 8 August 2010 (UTC)