Wikipedia:Discussion on the Nationality wording in the Lead of Nigerian BLP articles


 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors who want this closure undone in order to make further contributions to the discussion should also post a comment on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this page. 

This discussion reached no consensus.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 22:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

This discussion is to get consensus from Nigerian editors on how they feel Nationality should appear in the Lead of BLP articles. There has been unclear and different opinions on how the lead of an article should appear in cases where a subject has dual or multiple citizenship; apparently, no wikipedia policy has addressed the issue.

Notes:
 * 1) This doesn't apply to the Nationality in the infobox as every country in which the subject is a citizen should be included in the infobox.
 * 2) For consistency, the "other country" in this discussion should be United States, but bear it in mind that the discussion applies to everyother country.
 * 3) Contributors to this discussion should try to give an opinion on every possible scenario they can think of.
 * 4) You can always edit your submission as many times as possible as long as the thread is still open.

First submission (By Jamie Tubers)
I feel the Lead of a BLP article should read:


 * Nigerian when:


 * 1) The subject was born and raised in Nigeria, regardless of a scenario where the subject is no longer resident in Nigeria for a long time.
 * This doesn't apply when it is well covered in reliable sources that the subject also has a citizenship for the country he currently resides.(check 3rd point in Nigerian American)


 * 1) The subject was born, raised, and still resident in Nigeria, regardless of a scenario where he also has a citizenship for another country.
 * 2) The subject was born in another country to Nigerian parents, but raised in Nigeria and still resident in Nigeria.
 * This doesn't apply if is well covered in reliable sources that the subject has a citizenship of the country he was born (check 4th point in Nigerian American)


 * 1) Regardless of anyother point, the Subject has constantly stated in interviews that he is "just Nigerian" and nothing more, or something similar. Because I take this to mean that the subject wants to be identified just as a Nigerian regardless of his citizenships.
 * 2) The subject was born to foreign parents in Nigeria, raised in Nigeria and still resident in Nigeria.....and most of the times identifies as a Nigerian.
 * 3) Born to foreign parents in Nigeria, raised in Nigeria, but has moved to the country of his parents....but however still identifies mainly as a Nigerian anyway. Regardless of a scenario where he has the citizenship of other country as well.


 * Nigerian American when:


 * 1) The subject was born [to Nigerian parents], raised and still resident in another country, but identifies as a Nigerian on many ocassions anyway.
 * 2) The subject was born [to Nigerian parents] and raised in another country....but eventually moves to Nigeria and he's now resident in the country.
 * 3) The subject was born in another country to Nigerian parents, but raised and still resident in Nigeria BUT, he constantly identifies with the other country and always talks about having the citizenship of the other country. I take this to mean that the subject wants to be identified with the country of his birth as well.
 * 4) The subject was born and raised in Nigeria, but currently resides in another country and it is well published that he also has the citizenship of the other country......he has also on several occasions talked about his citizenship for the other country and now associates himself very well with the other country. I take this to mean that the subject wants to be associated with the new citizenship as well.
 * 5) The subject was born to foreign parents in Nigeria, raised in Nigeria and still resident in Nigeria.....but has identified with the country of his parents on many occasions.
 * 6) Born to foreign parents in Nigeria, raised in Nigeria, but has moved to the country of his parents....and also identifies with it.
 * 7) Born to foreign parents in a foreign country, but now resides in Nigeria and well covered in reliable sources that he has naturalized as a Nigerian.


 * American when:


 * 1) The subject was born, raised, and still resident in another country.....and the only way he has ever associated to Nigeria is being born to Nigerian parents.
 * 2) Born to foreign parents in Nigeria, has since moved to the country of his parents and the only way he has ever identified as a Nigerian is being born in Nigeria and nothing else.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 23:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

A less complicated variable

 * Nigerian when:
 * 1) Despite the citizenships, The subject is of Nigerian descent, attained notability through Nigerian industry and he is still very much active in the Nigerian industry (or retired while in the Nigerian industry).
 * Then American-born Nigerian can be added if an editor thinks the subject should be associated with the other country of his birth, maybe due to reliable sources where the subject associates with the country.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 04:41, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Quick Thoughts (By Darreg)
Note: I am assuming that the subject has both Nigerian and American passports verifiable in reliable sources for all scenerios below.


 * Nigerian If:
 * The subject is "ONLY" notable as a Nigerian and wants to be identified simply as a Nigerian, irrespective of whether he/she might have been born or have spent his/her formative years in america.


 * Nigerian American If:
 * The subject is notable both as a Nigerian and an American and wants to be identified as both.
 * The subject is "ONLY" notable as a Nigerian but he/she wants to also be identified as an American.

Darreg (talk) 22:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * American If
 * As stated by Jamie Tubers

Comments
Comment: First and foremost, I must applaud you for coming up with these detailed scenarios. I can't think of any scenario to add to these variations. I strongly believe that if one uses this as a guide to evaluate the nationality of every Nigerian related BLP article on Wikipedia, one would be able to definitively derive a subject's rightful variation. Having said that, I feel that there are probably scenarios out there that could overlap these variations. What happens then?  V e r s a c e 1 6 0 8 (Talk) 02:20, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that's why I previously said that if issues arise in the future, then another discussion can be opened concerning this.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 04:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Firstly, you are not considering a very important variable in your analysis but I will leave that for now. Secondly, when you say "raised", does that translate to the country a subject attained "notability"? If a subject returns from America after some years to become notable as a Nigerian will you say he was "raised" in Nigeria or overseas? (lets assume he was a nobody in America). I am asking this because "raised" is ambiguous to me. Does your "raised" mean the country where a subject has spent most of his life or the country where he has spent the most "significant" part of his life? I need you to define "raised" properly before I try to scrutinize the other points. IMO these four factors are very topical if we are to gain consensus here:

Darreg (talk) 16:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Country(s) of Notability of the Subject
 * Origin
 * Place of Birth
 * Country(s) the Subject identifies himself to be from
 * Which variable is that? When I say "raised", I mean the person grew up there.....like spent a considerable amount of his childhood there after being born.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 04:30, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Administrators at the BLP and Help desk noticeboards concur with Dareg's stance. From their point of view, American-born Nigerian musician is more sound than Nigerian American.  V e r s a c e 1 6 0 8 (Talk) 22:34, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * What do you think about my latest submission? It seem reasonable as well, and much simpler.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 04:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It looks fine to me. Darreg (talk) 20:35, 27 September 2014 (UTC)


 * What's your opinion in all these? Or I should just close the discussion, since there's no consensus?--Jamie Tubers (talk) 00:14, 29 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree with what you're saying. If Darreg agrees then I believe consensus has been reached.  V e r s a c e 1 6 0 8 (Talk) 16:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)


 * You agree to which? My first submission or the 2nd variable?--Jamie Tubers (talk) 18:23, 1 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this page.