Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Aesthetic Realism

Aesthetic Realism


15 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

In a 2-day period (July 8 and July 9, 2013), FreeKnowledgeCreator made 38 changes to the Aesthetic Realism entry. Some of the edits were corrections; some copyediting; some which warrant discussion on the talk page. Because of the historical contentious nature of this article, when it was rewritten 4 years ago, every sentence was reviewed by all parties for consensus before posting and since then this procedure has been largely followed. Where it hasn’t (including by me, see Outerlimits March 13, 2012 comment), the change is reverted and editors are told to please discuss on the talk page before making the change. The rewrite was done in an organized and methodical way that allowed everyone to comment. Compromises were made on both sides and where there was a disagreement about an edit which couldn't be resolved, a neutral editor overseeing the rewrite arbitrated. I am more than willing and, in fact, would welcome, discussion about edits to the article. I agree with many of the edits. My objection is that important edits were thrown in with unimportant edits. I suggest that all editors stop making changes to the entry so that a complete list can made in an organized way to prioritize what should be changed immediately and what needs to be discussed.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Began to make list to discuss changes but discussion keeps getting diverted into discussion of editors.

How do you think we can help?

I think it would be helpful if all editors followed a set procedure for discussing, reaching consensus, and making changes--with a mediator present to keep discussion and consensus moving forward.

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
 * Opening comments by FreeKnowledgeCreator

There was nothing wrong with any of my 38 edits, most of which were very minor and uncontroversial. For LoreMariano to revert all of them, apparently because she objected to a small number of changes, was highly disruptive. That she even reverted edits that she has since agreed were improvements shows how bizarre her behavior really was. Her position, apparently, is that absolutely all edits, no matter how minor, must be discussed first. If that is her position, then it is preposterous, and the best way forward would be for her to abandon it and admit that she was wrong. LoreMariano complains that, "important edits were thrown in with unimportant edits." I don't know how LoreMariano defines "important" versus "unimportant". Some of my changes were more major than others, certainly, but what of it? There is no policy against making a mixture of major and minor changes when one edits an article, and if editors are able to edit competently and consider changes on a case by case basis, there is no reason why it should be a problem. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
 * Opening comments by Ocaasi

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. As mentioned above, quite a few changes were made to this article, which has a long, contentious history. As a fairly new editor FreeKnowledgeCreator was likely unaware of previous edit wars and the long-standing agreement to refrain from changes without discussion first on the talk page. Meanwhile, there is agreement that many of the edits of a technical kind (moving citations, removing spaces) and some word changes were good. Other word changes, however, are contentious. I agree that a method of moving forward must be established, and that all editors must discuss content only and refrain from making disparaging comments about the motives, intelligence or abilities of other editors. Trouver (talk) 02:58, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Opening comments by Trouver

It's possible to write and maintain an honest and informative Wikipedia article on certain philosophies and even religions. It's even possible to do so when adherents of those philosophies or religions participate in the crafting of those articles. But it's not possible to do so when adherents control what goes into those articles, especially if those adherents are not devoted to an honest examination of the subject, but instead insist it be treated hagiographically.
 * Opening comments by Outerlimits

The Scientology articles on Wikipedia might serve as an example. …..They were scandalously kept in a whitewashed state by Scientology practitioners until a ban was placed on editing. (Anyone not familiar with this episode can reference Church of Scientology editing on Wikipedia.) In short, it became apparent that Scientiologists had practiced a self-serving wiki-revisionism that kept the articles full of disinformation, overwhelming regular editors by dint of numbers and relentlessness. It was noted that this sort of problem occurs with fringe faiths with rabid practitioners.

In the past, mediators on the Aesthetic Realism article have ceded control over the article to its practitioners, and thereby enabled a sense of ownership in its followers. In a sense, it's hard to fault those called upon to intervene. There are precious few people in the world who know anything about Aesthetic Realism, and fewer still who care anything about it. It's not an important philosophical movement; it's a footnote in the annals of philosophy made vivid only by a brief period in its history where it advertised itself widely as the "answer" to homosexuality (the answer being that it would change gay men and women into heterosexuals). That, with perhaps a few minor scandals as they tried to infiltrate the New York City school system, has been their real claim to fame. With a very small number of people outside AR interested in editing the article, it has become a playground for AR enthusiasts, for whom it is virtually an article of faith that their goal in life is ensuring that no one speaks in any but the most laudatory and non-critical manner about AR.

We are brought to this dispute page by someone whose contention seems to be that the Aesthetic Realism article shouldn't be edited like every other article on Wikipedia is. She should, perhaps, have actually stated her dispute on the talk page of the article rather than for the first time here, but I suppose limiting one's dispute ending efforts to "making a list" is a real time-saver.

The sense of ownership here is so severe that simple grammatical changes are reverted not because the reverter disagrees with them, but because someone dared to edit the article without her prior approval. Clearly this is not a state of affairs that should be allowed to continue.

The methods advocated by LoreMariano have been tried and have produced the sad article we now have. It would be silly to think that simply repeating the same process with the same people is going to produce a different result. Over the period of time they've been participating in editing the AR-related articles, it's been very difficult to describe things in a straightforward, encyclopedic manner. Part of the problem is the tangential manner in which they prefer articles be written; instead of simply stating Eli Siegal committed suicide, they prefer periphrases such as "elected to die with dignity", and silently remove applicable categorizations that offend them. The reason the article's current explanation of Aesthetic Realism is so inchoate is not simply a reflection of the philosophy proper, but because it quotes and mimics the curious tangential manner in which treatises about Aesthetic Realism are usually written.

What is needed is a way to bring other, disinterested, Wikipedia editors to the article in order to counterbalance the undue influence that the Aesthetic Realism followers currently have. I doubt that this is possible.

Nonetheless, at a very minimum, the changes already suggested to bring the article into conformity with the manual of style should be implemented at once (e.g., referring to "Siegel" as such throughout the body of the article), along with the uncontested grammatical changes (notwithstanding the edit war over "a" vs. "the"), as should appropriate treatment of Aesthetic Realism's assertion that it converts gay men to heterosexual men (WP:FRINGE demands that the mainstream point of view counterbalance their fringe belief on this subject.). - Outerlimits (talk) 02:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
 * Opening comments by Nathan43

This article was worked over by editors with strongly differing viewpoints and a consensus was reached with great difficulty. The reason for asking for all changes to be discussed on the talk page first from my point of view was because historically when that didn't happen it led to edit-warring. I think any changes must be made very carefully and with mutual agreement.

It is important for anyone editing the article to look at the history carefully. Every sentence was discussed and argued about before consensus was reached, with the result that the current wording came to be. It was extremely time-consuming.

Some editors have had to endure insults, intimidation, and abuse that are completely contrary to Wikipedia guidelines and ordinary decency -- and this has happened in posts in the last couple of days.

I respectfully ask any person who sees themselves as arbitrating to insist from the start that all posts be respectful and not cast aspersions on the motives of others.

I'll point out too that the article as it stands is thoroughly sourced. It's easy to take a glance at it and say it needs better organization, but what looks like a simple task may turn out to be much more complex and involved than anticipated. Nathan43 (talk) 16:56, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Aesthetic Realism discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. The discussion is not open yet OPEN ,giving time for all notified to respond with opening statements but I am volunteering to help with this dispute. If it is allowed, participants may respond to opening comments above under the opening comments.TeeVeeed (talk) 04:45, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Notes from the volunteer:So far I am seeing petty editing disputes involving matters of style such-as, "The New York Times" vs "the New York Times"-this should be solvable via MOS-Manual of Style? And a more politically sensitive change between use of the term, "homosexuality" vs. "sexual orientation" type thing. The questions of this dispute seems to be one of how questionable edits should be decided and two:does every single edit to the article need to be discussed on the talk page? The regular Wikipedia policies offer a great deal of guidance on how edits to the article should be done. If a particular edit is questioned, taking it to the talk page is the correct way to work it out. Should the article be locked, or should every single edit be up for consensus? I don't think so. But past consensus seems to have been treating the article as-if it was protected. So maybe that should be looked into?  I have not yet seen all or other versions of what this article looked like in the past, but currently, it does appear to me to have some problems of giving "undue weight", to some topics, and overall, personally, I am of the opinion that a great deal of the material on the page could be placed on the Eli Siegel page. And also, my personal preference of style would be to re-arrange the article to put contentious topics under a sub-heading of "controversy"-Three items in particular, the homosexuality conflict, accusations of being a cult, and eugenics specifically. But, I don't know if I would be willing to do such a bold edit myself, especially considering the charges and evidence of article "ownership" that is attached to the topic.  For someone such as myself who is not familiar with the topic, and other users and readers, the article currently reveals exactly what has been going-on behind the scenes on the talk page, which doesn't speak well for WP or the article itself. Yes the "controversy" should be included, and mentioned in the lead, but overall, the article could be re-crafted to give a simpler presentation of the topic itself.So I guess that answers my opinion on #2. I do not think that the page should be locked and this idea of asking that all edits be consensual is equivalent to asking that page protections be put in place. My "perfect" version of the page would attempt to define the topic without undue weight or influence given to the founder or the controversies, while keeping that basic information in other sections on the page. But that is not the question here. I guess the question is should page protection be considered or not. TeeVeeed (talk) 07:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As volunteer to assist, I think that I am as up to speed on the problem as I can get. Let's open the discussion. I'm going to ask a couple questions here:

Question 1: Was there ever a time in the history of the article, that "both sides", or "all-sides", were satisfied with the article? (both sides being any editor personally connected to Aesthetic Realism past or present, "all-sides" including random WP editors or bots)
 * Sorry for delayed response (out of town today). From Summer 2009 to Fall 2010 this article was revised under guidance of 2 neutral Admins. During much of that time the page was protected. Every change required consensus, and Admins made final decision where consensus could not reached. Their decision depended upon reliable sources being provided for statements. That is why quotes are provided from many citations that cannot be easily viewed. The Talk Page (top) links to both favorable & critical citations. As you can see, some editors will never be “satisfied” unless denigrating, ridiculing words appear. The present article, while imperfect, is an attempt to present opposing viewpoints without subjecting either to insults. It was the Admin, not an editor, who stated that it was inappropriate for personal details about Eli Siegel's life or death to appear on this page. After the article was completed and the page protect was lifted, it was stable for three years, although I think many editors felt, as I did, that any significant change should not be made without consensus. In fact, when an unknown editor deleted controversial material from the lede (where I for one do not think they belong--I agree with your "perfect" version) this change was reverted by Nathan. And in defense of the editor who admitted her error reverting all of FKC's edits, I note that 38 individual edits (even if many were minor) might concern someone who has experienced “attacks” in the past (and I am not accusing FreeKnowledgeCreator because these attacks took pace years before he began to edit). Trouver (talk) 04:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Question 2: You can either lock or protect a topic, or not but if the article is not sanctioned as such, it should not be treated, "as-if". What is the objection, (if any) to page protection, and is anyone here willing to take a look at the question of page protection/locking for the article?
 * So, I have spent a great deal of this afternoon looking at the article's problems and although no one has yet responded to the idea of page-protection, that is what we are talking about from the way that I see it. Without getting into any personal attacks, strictly applying Wikipedia guidelines to all of the editors involved with the article, would eliminate the edit-warring problem by blocking or restricting editors who could be said to pose a COI- conflict of interest, to the article.

On the other hand, protecting the article could lead to restricting any or all editors who do NOT pose the risk of COI. So it is tricky. Insisting that editors who are not aware of previous consensus, follow a special set of rules for this article, is impractical and contrary to the policies of the project. So in case anyone is wondering, that isn't going to happen and it cannot be enforced. Therefore, my proposal is this: allow a specific short time-period, no more than a week or so, to determine an "agreeable" article, and to then apply for page protection. And if that, or some version of that can not be decided, to close this DRN, and allow the article to remain open to random editing, with the usual guidelines of WP being intact. That would include the possibility of asking that any and all editors seen as posing a COI with the material be asked to refrain from editing the article. TeeVeeed (talk) 23:46, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Reviewing Page Protection options, I have no objection; it was useful before and is temporary. Meanwhile, it does seem that we are closer to agreement now than we were some days ago, and if the name calling can end, and all editors concentrate on content, we may still reach consensus. Trouver (talk) 04:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Notwithstanding the various problems involved with editing that article, I don't believe protecting the page is necessary at this time. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 06:15, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * If comments could stay focused on text only I think we could make useful progress. It's very hard to look at text and comment when simultaneously your character is being attacked. I still think we need a neutral third party arbitrator in cases where consensus can't be reached. LoreMariano (talk) 22:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, in response to your two questions above: 1.	I was satisfied that it was acceptable at one time. During the recent period of relative stability (the period from roughly January through June of this year) which followed the intense backs and forths that went on for more than a year  – the article has an overall form that I can live with as relatively accurate. 2.	I’m afraid that page-protection may be the only long-term solution.

I'm not sure about the one-week idea. Nathan43 (talk) 15:57, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Page protection is a drastic option that shouldn't be imposed unless there is a compelling need for it. The burden is on anyone proposing it to show that it is actually necessary. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:04, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Test-is this open? Sorry everyone there is a little problem with the way that this case is listed. I am trying to fix that, it has to do I think with my name change that I made awhile ago.

Also, a note, I think that there has been a request that another volunteer take over this case. Until I hear otherwise I am willing to stick with it. And I am sorry if anyone involved here feels that they have been "attacked" in this discussion by myself or anyone else. As a reader and an editor, I have pretty much admitted that I do not like the article--especially as a reader. I have "fresh-eyes", as far as the topic is concerned and at first I was eagerly hoping to learn more about the topic. At this point, it still appears confusing. Starting with the article photo which is an image of the AR Foundation HQ in Soho NYC. If I were interested, (and I am not), in re-doing the whole thing, The article would be split again, with a separate article for the foundation, and and shorter article about AR with some images of work(s) done under the auspices of AR, or using the theater image which is now at the bottom of the article at the top with 2 other images that are already in the commons, (a poem, and prints by an artist heavily influenced by AR.) [|thumbnail|example of art that is influenced] But that really has nothing to do with the questions posed here which I still see as a request that editing to Aesthetic Realism be handled as a "special case", and I continue to maintain that the best way to solve the problem is to instead use the policies and guidelines that are available to every other article on WP. For the main reason being that most readers and editors especially have no idea that an article has "special rules".TeeVeeed (talk) 13:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know who requested another volunteer but it wasn't me. I think you've been a great help already. My experience is that it always helps editors deeply involved in an article to have an objective 3rd party neutral view. Your ideas above are intriguing and I am definitely interested in working to have this article the best it can be. Meanwhile, we seem to be making progress now on agreement as to some minor issues on the existing article, and hopefully this will continue. I don't think this article should be treated as a "special case"--can we have some clarification on this page from anyone who thinks it should be? Trouver (talk) 14:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank-you to everyone who has answered questions and contributed to the DRN. To clarify, and I hope that this is not taken to be intended as insulting in any way, but it was an attempt to define and make short-hand of the problem, I am the one who attributed the term, "special case" to apply to the way that the article has been historically edited, and which is currently being suggested to continue. What I mean by, "special case", is that instead-of following the expected and usual WP policy of editing, bold-editing...followed by any problems being discussed on the article talk page, that it be done in a "reverse" manner where suggested edits are 1st requested on the talk page, even though no protections are "officially", (and visibly), in place. Since a page protection is the only way that I am aware-of that most editors are familiar with, if the consensus were to be to want to use this, "talk first then edit" rule, I tried to boil it down to basically a question of, "special case" vs page protection, with the warning that, "special case" is a problem since it would be impossible for most people to know about the "special case" status until after they had made good faith article edits.TeeVeeed (talk) 15:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Reviewing this discussion, including my own comments, I realize I had assumed the practice of "talk first then edit" was Wikipedia etiquette, probably just from the habit of doing it for so long on this article, but now I realize that it is not the "rule" and I am not asking for special treatment. My big objection is when insulting comments about editors appear on the talk page. As you can see from other Wikipedia articles, there are many living professionals who study, write about, and value this philosophy, (not to mention that the President of the City College of New York quoted from one of the major texts of its founder, Eli Siegel, in his commencement address in 2003) and the careless way accusations of "cult" are thrown around is not only inaccurate but dangerous. Trouver (talk) 15:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That is one reason why I think that the foundation should have its own page. Again, no offense or personal meaning at all should be taken from, "special case", as it is very clear that the past consensus was to treat the article as such. New editors coming in and adding something about, "a cult", or other potentially contentious material to the article, probably isn't as big of an ongoing problem as some may think it is, since if mention is already in the article, and it is, (maybe unduly weighted imo), but currently there are only so many available citations and references to those claims and since it is a part of the article, even if every reliable source that could be found were to be included, (there is something on Rip-Off Report.com if that is even credible that could potentially be added), the current available sources are almost exhausted. As far as personal insults on the talk page where editors are concerned, I think that part of the problem starts where a good faith editor trying to improve the article runs into complaints for not following "special rules". Resolving that situation could solve that immediately.TeeVeeed (talk) 15:50, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * For the record, it was not me who asked for another volunteer.  I think you've delineated the central problems.  Your suggested reorganization thrills me although I don't think it's possible at this time.  I agree  that the controversial things are clearly present--even in the lead. The matter of homosexuality changing stirs up a lot, despite the fact that it hasn't been discussed at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation for over 20 years; other editors were insistent that this be present in detail.  I would like to see if we can get the article stabilized again before requesting page protection--maybe it won't be necessary. LoreMariano (talk) 18:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Well maybe I misunderstood about being "fired" as volunteer-maybe it is earwig bot or my own mistakes that had me wondering, OK I'm staying with this dispute unless there is a major complaint. -I've come to notice that some articles and arguments may be ongoing on WP, but the way that things are handled tends to change. Although "talk first, get consensus, then edit", seems to have worked for this article and its editors, the tools that WP give editors and admin. do not back that up. Getting back to the original complaint of a multiple edit, with some items possibly being contentious, and some or most being helpful contributions, in this case, even though it may be easier to roll-back the page to an earlier version, I don't think that is really being fair to the article's users, because you would be putting back errors. Wikipedia does have policy in place to dispute edits after the edits are made. In the case of the multiple edits, there are two correct options that I see: 1-More editing but not in the form of a reversal that would include errors. and then if a dispute arises, 2-Discussing it on the article talk page. If there is an unsolvable dispute on the talk page, it can then be escalated. If there are multiple disputes or a general point-of-view, (POV) dispute, continuing to hash it out on the talk page would probably be the best way to handle that, since it appears that no one is currently in favor of protecting the article at this time. Although Wikipedia has the luxury of being an encyclopedia, and not restricted to providing a simple definition, this article still confuses me because a great deal of the content speaks about the AR Foundation and its founder. The disputes involved with the article reflect that. Even the dispute involving use of the term "euthanasia", could be avoided for this article, if the essay The Equality of Man were treated as a unique article, or at least covered in the author's or foundation's article. On the allegation of being a cult, and documenting the controversy and past activities per:"curing homosexuality", again, that points to the history of the founder and the foundation. So the question there is, does Aesthetic Realism exist without the AR Foundation? The way that the article currently appears most definitely says "No."-to that question, primarily because of the image placement, (AR HQ in upper right corner). But also because of the article length. I don't know enough about it to answer the question, so I'll have to go with the facts that many editors with differing opinions, including experts on the topic, have agreed on the article so far. The fact that the Foundation exists, and that there has been controversy and history, should probably be included in an article about AR- but further explanation of all of it, is at the expense of the main topic in my opinion. It is not clear whether the non-separation between AR and the Foundation, is intentional or not, if the foundation, "is" AR. If the answer to that is "yes"-then it would make sense, but currently that is only implied by the article. So, that explains my confusion and opinion with the article. Even though I said that I am not interested in re-doing the article, that is because I do not have the skills. If everyone here can agree to take any current disputes back to the talk page, I would be very interested in watching further progress with the article(s), and I am considering the personal idea of trying to use the topic while I develop more skills on WP in article creation or re-writing, (don't worry I would discuss any proposed bold changes on the talk page;)).

So the question for everyone here is, Would everyone agree to take this/these complaint(s) back to the article talk page at this time? And what to do about "special case" editing for this article? And by that I mean, is there a subset of editors who want to continue to discuss on the talk page before editing, and is it too much to ask that any random or new editors to this particular page, follow this policy once they become aware of it? Maybe it could be handled like the Mormon Baptism for the dead, where once an editor is enlightened to the traditional page-editing process, they have a choice? There is nothing to prevent an editor from asking for opinions on the talk page before they make an edit, so that is every editor's choice. If an editor chooses to do that, and that edit is disputed or changed after it is posted on the article, that dispute could then be had on the talk page. Unless there are any individually specific disputes, such-as which edit version should prevail in the article, I think that's about all that we can do here for the article and the dispute at this time.
 * The most sensitive aspect of this article regards homosexuality, and I am just posting here what I have posted on the Talk Page and on the page of FreeKnowledgeCreator concerning his resent change:
 * FreeKnowledge, what might seem a minor change to you might not seem minor to other editors in this very sensitive section. For example, the parenthetical passage you have removed("he was no longer impelled towards men") might seem redundant, but emphasizes the fact that the change being described was not simply a change in behavior but a change in physical response. This is the most contentious aspect of the article, and it concerns living persons. I'm not going to revert but will wait for other editors to weigh in, and unlike my change regarding eugenics above (which nobody seems to care about), I think there will be comments on this change. For myself, although I am not one of those personally involved, I think the deleted parenthetical passage clarifies the nature of the change and therefore should be reverted. Trouver (talk) 15:09, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I must emphasize that this section was written under the guidance of an Admin just because it was so contentious and the final language (which, again, might seem redundant to you) was the result. It is supported, of course, by reliable citations.Trouver (talk) 15:17, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * With all respect to Wikipedia's much harassed administrators, "written under the guidance of an Admin" does not automatically mean the same thing as "good writing." The fact of the matter is that the homosexuality section is poorly written and tendentious. I've stated some of my objections to it on the talk page. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:45, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Aside from what I've said about too much of the controversy and foundation/member history being included in this article, from a WP point of view, that particular quote would be a "keeper" for me too for 3 reasons. 1) It is a quote and it is correctly cited as far as I can tell. 2) Recommending that material be moved does not mean that it is not valuable and this article's "homosexual" information has already been tagged on the talk page as being of interest to a wider (LGBT) project on WP. 3) The whole topic of "curing sexual orientation", is an important topic and deleting reference material concerning that topic probably should not be done unless it is contained elsewhere on WP. See: Lou Reed

"bisexuality; he wrote about the experience in his 1974 song, "Kill Your Sons." In an interview, Reed said of the experience: "They put the thing down your throat so you don't swallow your tongue, and they put electrodes on your head. That's what was recommended in Rockland County to discourage homosexual feelings. The effect is that you lose your memory and become a vegetable. You can't read a book because you get to page 17 and have to go right back to page one again." —Lou Reed quoted in Please Kill Me (1996)"

---notice how the quote is set-aside and in the article it is placed in the middle of the page, (Early Years), and yes, as a reader, when I came-upon this information I appreciated learning about this from WP. From the entire section Aesthetic Realism and homosexuality, if anything is to be deleted, it should not be quotes or facts. I was the one who deleted the definition of eugenics from the article. It was not necessary since eugenics is a topic that is covered elsewhere. The dispute involving "they/he did not call it eugenics"-when The Equality of Man (1923)essay was written, makes sense but the proposed deletion of, :"Siegel criticized writers who were promoting eugenics" in favor of: "the present common feeling that men are unequal" takes away from the meaning of the fact that Siegel had responded to the rise of eugenics-based viewpoints in 1923. The sentence change there, although factually correct, dilutes the historical significance and context that the 1st sentence correctly presents. In the section titled: Criticism and response, the last section of the article, the following sentence is hard to read and I'm pretty sure grammatically incorrect:

"Some former and current students of the philosophy have responded in a website titled "Countering the Lies," saying that the technique of the persons who want to discredit Aesthetic Realism is "1) to find out what characteristics a cult is supposed to have and, 2) then say Aesthetic Realsim has them (though of course it doesn't)."

-(and it has a spelling error). I tried to fix that in the article, but it was reverted, and as DRN volunteer I think that I should keep my hands off editing for now, but I'm surprised that editors are choosing to go-after the hard-fought facts and points contained in the article, instead-of the parts that are begging to be repaired.
 * You say that "facts" should not be removed. What I removed was not a "fact" but a piece of tendentious, confused writing. I removed it because I considered its removal necessary to improve the section. I'm happy to explain my position at this at length on the appropriate talk page. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:45, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Have to be away a few days, but will reflect on everything said above. Trouver (talk) 01:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you referring to the "impelled" statement? Because when I say "fact", I am including a properly cited quote, and that was exactly what I meant by "fact"-there? Or was it something else? Much of the article appears tendentious and confusing, I agree about that, but some of the compromises that are there do appear to be there for a good reason after careful consideration.TeeVeeed (talk) 03:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

--

As a completely uninvolved party, the issue here is not content ("a" vs. "the"), problem here is control, who gets to edit the page and how edits "must" be done.

I think it is unreasonable to expect every editor who happens to come across a Wikipedia article to read an entire editing history before making good-faith edits. I'm weird in that I like to go to Talk Pages and see what the debates are all about but I think I'm unusual in doing that. Especially when you are talking about edits for typos, grammar changes, awkward sentence structure, etc., no one is going to do research before they "right" the "wrongs" they see.

I understand that there were painful disputes regarding this particular article where consensus was hard-won. But unless the page is protected, ANYONE can edit ANY article, even ones that are near and dear to your heart. No Wikipedia article is written in stone, forever in a state of permanency. Even the most brilliant articles are subject to revision, it's just the Wikipedia way.

I have encountered Wikipedia Pages where zealous editors have staked their claim and revert any and all changes that are made to it. That is annoying as all hell, but I'm not sure how that can be prevented. But here you have actually charged another user with disruptive editing because she/he didn't clear each edit with you first! As long as they were well-intentioned (and we should assume good faith), this is futile because no editor can prevent another editor from making changes on an unprotected page in the future. If it's not this user this week, it'll be another user at another point in time.

Are you going to charge every user who makes an unapproved edit with disruptive editing? If yes, then this problem will keep reoccurring. And I think the problem isn't with a casual editor who makes a well-intentioned edit, it's with the regular editors having ownership issues that, while understandable, are also unwarranted. This article, like every unprotected article, is not any one person's (or group of persons) property. You can still be a good steward and let go of trying to control every edit that is made on a page. It's not easy but it's necessary. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 23:12, 22 July 2013 (UTC
 * Nope, aside from some type of page-protections, it really can not be done. And I don't even know if I like the old-style way, since if someone misses a talk page discussion, they could be hemmed-in by someone saying that they had the chance to debate or dispute a change before it went into the article.

Really, I think that the article can be edited with the normal tools available. Is every single change going to be contentious? Maybe. Especially since much of the article was painstakingly worked-over. So if one editor comes by and changes something, it can be boldly undone, with an explanation in the summary or talk page if another editor objects. Once something is boldly undone, it probably should be talked about in detail on the talk page to avoid editing wars. There is ownership, but at least it is an ownership of all sides from what i can tell-not just one point of view, so it isn't a one-sided type of ownership or blocking, more of it seems editors not wanting to hammer out the same items repeatedly, and an understanding of what is lost with certain deletions. What does everyone think about trying to work with the current tools that WP has available, taking care to take individual disputes to the talk page, (after edits are made to the article)- to avoid 3RR/warring? The original complaint involved numerous changes, so that complicated things. What does everyone think about taking it one thing at a time, with the idea that "anyone can edit"? I forgot to log-in but this is from the volunteer teeVeed24.0.133.234 (talk) 04:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * This seems right to me. LoreMariano (talk) 19:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * As long as any good-faith edit is not seen as a reportable offense, that sounds good to me. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 00:04, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I gave a full explanation for removing "he was no longer impelled toward men" on the talk page of the article, and I stand by that explanation. I refer anyone interested to the talk page. The article clearly needs to be rewritten, but unfortunately an editor is current arguing for keeping the article written in Aesthetic Realistic jargon. This is impeding progress at the article. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 06:50, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

DRN process question: I'm a regular volunteer here at DRN. The volunteer who was handling this case has not posted here in the last week, nor has there been any other edit within the last 3 days. Reading through this discussion makes me feel that it really ought to be happening back at the article talk page rather than here. If this listing had not been made part of DRN's now-failed subpage experiment it would, beginning today, be subject to being automatically archived unless at least one edit was made to it every 24 hours. Therefore, unless someone very strenuously objects, I or another editor will close this after 20:00 UTC tomorrow July 30, 2013. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 19:49, 29 July 2013 (UTC) Withdrawn. — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 13:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I very strenuously object to the closing of this discussion. The normal process of discussion at the article's talk page doesn't seem to be enough to solve the problems at Aesthetic Realism. A great deal of disruptive and tendentious editing is occurring there, and the larger Wikipedia community needs to be aware of this. It's not constructive to close this discussion when other steps have not been taken to bring attention to the issue. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't have time to discuss fixing the article here, but I do want to say that I support FreeKnowledgeCreator's edits to the articles as well as his/her ideas about the process. FKC appears to be an experienced and fair WP editor, which is exactly what the article needs. MichaelBluejay (talk) 00:20, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In fact, the volunteer in question seems to have posted on the 25th, that is, four days ago, albeit as an ip. If you have suggestions as to other forums that can address conflict-of-interest editing and ownership of articles, they would be happily accepted. Suggestions on how to attract disinterested parties to the editing of the article in question would also be helpful. - Outerlimits (talk) 00:59, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry everyone. I have been here but I am having trouble logging in and also my contributions are disappearing from my logs so I have to manually search for this topic. I don't even know if I would be able to close the discussion at this point because my log-list only shows me as being here for a few days and other log-in probs. FreeKnowledgeCreator---I understand what you are saying about a question of bias and jargon. That is really confusing for readers! But that may be a whole other issue? Unless there is anything else that can be done here, I will attempt to CLOSE this DRN sometime in the next two days. If you guys really want to dispute every little thing, you may have to bring them as individual issues. There are a lot of unanswered questions about the article, and the topic, but this started-out as a question about article protection from the way that I saw it, and/or edit first talk later or the traditional, (for the Aesthetic Realism article) talk 1st, then edit. I think that this long discussion has invited the attention of more uninvolved editors which can only help the situation and i think that a completely COI-free edit could really help improve the article.Housewifehader (talk) 05:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Added-I just visited the article and there have been substantial changes made to it. Since there are no sub-pages, such as :Aesthetic Realism Foundation, which is something that I strongly recommend, all of the info. is attached to the article. Although I do not think that particular individual items can be dealt with on this DRN, at this point, I do think that it would be worthwhile to fully dispute the cult question, with question like maybe should there be a new page created for Aesthetic Realism Foundation Cult Controversy? Or on the foundation itself as I've said with a more balanced and in-depth explanation from both/all sides. The latest edit has eliminated a link to a site that has info. about AR being a "cult".-And moved the cult-allegation to a nonsensical paragraph at the bottom of the article, not only out of the lede-which is prob a good thing, but there is no distinct arrangement or "controversy" section, which the topic of the foundation deserves in my opinion. The article now is less balanced then when this DRN started! The fact that the foundation has reserved an extensive section on their own website to answer those who call them a cult, reveals that this is a serious issue involving the foundation. I also object that the link that was deleted, was referred-to as "self-promoting". Again in this case, many of the page editors have a COI when it comes to that question, and if I were not the volunteer here, as a random editor I would be itching to re-apply that link to the article. The info. there was very enlightening and helpful in understanding the problems that, (again the foundation--see why I think they need their own article?) AR has.Housewifehader (talk) 06:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Process update: Now this is moving again, I've withdrawn my proposed closing. I note that Housewifehader is attempting to wrap this up, which is in her discretion to do or not do as the lead volunteer on this case, but let me note that this case is extending past its life expectancy for a DRN case. The philosophy here is that when a case takes this long, it's probably more than DRN can handle and either needs to go back to the article talk page or move on to mediation or an RFC. If this discussion stops for more than 24 hours, it's likely to be closed without additional warning. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 13:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * OK everyone, now that I have looked at how to close this, it has come to my attention that DRNs are designed mainly for matters of content not editing behavior, so I am going to close this out as a "procedural" close rather than say that it failed or was resolved. I do not think that we failed on the initial question and I appreciate all of the efforts that were made here. In moving forward with problems on the page, please keep in mind that questions about editing behavior will be better helped at Requests for comment, while individual content disputes would be fine right here. Thank-you everyone who participated and best wishes on improving the article.Housewifehader (talk) 17:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this was successful in at least one aspect: answering the question of whether prior permission to edit the article should be required with a resounding no. The conflict of interest problem is, as I thought, beyond the ability of anyone here to solve. As to having a separate article for the foundation, I think that unnecessary: without the foundation, there would be no one involved with the philosophy, so they are essentially identical  entities. - Outerlimits (talk) 20:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Housewifehader for your help. LoreMariano (talk) 01:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)