Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 114

Talk:Mirza Ghulam_Ahmad#edits_by_xtremedood
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According to Ahmadi Claims Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad A.S fulfilled a prophecy that said, "For our Mahdi, there are two signs which have never happened since the earth and the heavens were created, i.e., the moon will be eclipsed on the first of the possible nights in the month of Ramadan and the sun will be eclipsed in the middle of the possible days of the month of Ramadhan." As is clear from the above statement the claim of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani A.S is that 1)The Moon will be eclipsed on the first possible night in Ramadhan, 2)The Sun will be eclipsed on the middle of possible nights in Ramadhan, Now Xtremedood wants to add "criticism" to this which is "Critics also say that the lunar eclipse did not occur on the first night of Ramadan and the solar eclipse did not occur on the middle day of the month as detailed in the prophecy. Some critics also maintain the prophecy refers to eclipses that will happen before the arrival of the Mahdi, not after." I contest to this addition. I will explain my reservations in my comment below.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

talk on talk page only

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Remove unreliably sourced material and protect the page.

Summary of dispute by Xtremedood
The article in question contains material that is against Wikipedia's neutrality policy (NPOV). The prophecy outlined states: "For our Mahdi there are two signs which have never appeared before since the creation of the heavens and the earth, namely the moon will be eclipsed on the first night in Ramadhan and the sun will be eclipsed on the middle day in the same month of Ramadhan, and these signs have not appeared since God created the heavens and the earth." — Dar Qutni Vol. 1, page 188.

According to the "Ahmadiyya" viewpoint, Mirza fulfilled this prophecy (which is detailed in the article), however, according to opponents, Mirza did not fulfill this prophecy. There are three main points of criticism that I want to remain on the article (as to retain NPOV), they are: 1) criticisms pertaining to the veracity of the prophecy itself, 2) the indication that critics do not believe the eclipses occured on the 1st and middle-day (~15th) of Ramadan 1894/1895 respectively (as outlined in the prophecy), and 3) according to critics, the prophecy is referring to before the arrival of the Mahdi, not after. These criticisms are highlighted in a variety of different sources and I have mentioned them in the page's talk page.

The dispute is centered around FreeatlastChitchat's unwillingness to bring about legitimate criticisms to Mirza's claims and my willingness to do so. Xtremedood (talk) 08:32, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Mirza Ghulam_Ahmad#edits_by_xtremedood discussion
My reservations about the content are summarized below statement by statement. 1)Critics also say that the lunar eclipse did not occur on the first night of Ramadan and the solar eclipse did not occur on the middle day of the month as detailed in the prophecy Reservations are I)It is not the claim of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Alaih-e-Salam that the eclipse will be on the first of month. This is tantamount to putting your own words in another persons mouth and then claiming that he is lying. The claim is that eclipses will occur in the first and middle days/nights of "possible" nights/days. II)the source http://dlmcn.com/qadfl.html does not mention ANYWHERE that the prophecy is wrong because the eclispe did not occur on 1st of Ramadhan. This is blatant misinformation, I don't know what else to call it. Quoting a source and then saying something which the source does not say. 2)Some critics also maintain the prophecy refers to eclipses that will happen before the arrival of the Mahdi, not after. The source does not mention this as his own words. He says that a person named "Molvi Syyed Barkat Ali" Gosha nashin of Waziarabad has mentioned this in his book "The false Prophet of Qadian". I have been unable to find a single reference to this aforementioned person on the internet and his book seems to be unknown as well. There fore this source should be fringe and unreliable.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:34, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * As I have stated, the following criticisms should remain: 1) criticisms pertaining to the veracity of the prophecy itself, 2) the indication that critics do not believe the eclipses occured on the 1st and 15th respectively (as outlined in the prophecy), and 3) according to critics, the prophecy is referring to before the arrival of the Mahdi, not after.


 * The reason why I say this is to adhere to Wikipedia's NPOV policy and to bring some neutrality to a biased article.


 * I will now attempt to address some of FreeatlastChitchat reservations. It is irrelevant whether or not Mirza claims that the eclipse will be on the first of the month or not. The criticism is that Mirza's claims of fulfilling the prophecy are invalid. The critics maintain that the prophecy indicates that the lunar and solar eclipses will occur on the 1st and 15th days of Ramadan. Based upon this understanding of the prophecy, the critics claim that Mirza did not fulfill the prophecy.


 * Sayyid Saeed Akhtar Rizvi makes the criticisms clear that the prophecy was not fulfilled according to his interpretation of the prophecy. He essentially claims that the lunar eclipse did not occur on the first night of Ramadan and the solar eclipse did not occur on the middle day of the month as detailed in the prophecy.


 * The prophecy itself outlines that the lunar eclipse will occur on the 1st of Ramadan and the Middle day (~15th) of Ramadan, however the "Ahmadiyya" interpret the prophecy as not saying this, but rather saying as Mirza mentions.


 * I never claimed that the source, http://dlmcn.com/qadfl.html, ever claimed that the prophecy was wrong. The source however places doubt on "Ahmadiyya" claims, even if we were to interpret the prophecy according to their own interpretations. The website states exactly: "Thus, the Ahmadiyyas must either accept that eclipses may occur on the 12th of a lunar month as well as on the 27th - or else they must regard eclipses as impossible on both those Islamic dates. Whichever choice is made, requires revision of their thesis." David McNaughton tackles the issue while relying on "Ahmadiyya" interpretations of the prophecy to render the "Ahmadiyya" claim as potentially invalid.


 * The third criticism is also crucial as to adhere to Wikipedia's NPOV policy, as it indicates a new and legitimate dimension to the interpretation of the prophecy. According to Sayyid Saeed Akhtar Rizvi, we see that others interpret the events as occurring before the advent of the Mahdi and not 3 years after Mirza declared himself as the Mahdi (as the "Ahmadiyya" claim). I have checked the source and it is legitimate. Xtremedood (talk) 07:50, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I have modified the 'the sun and moon eclipse' section to reflect a more neutral view of the prophecy claim. This may be observed in my most recent edit. It includes both the views of critics and supporters. Xtremedood (talk) 22:34, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

This case is now open for discussion. Has there been some resolution here? If not, please summarize in a short paragraph, what the remaining issues are.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 20:09, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

there has been no resolution. I have not edited the page much as to avoid an edit war. Xtremedood has Removed the translation of the Prophecy used by the Ahmadiyyah, this is blatant POV editing. When the article is about Ahmadiyyah then the article should use the translation done by the Ahmadiyyah. NPOV is to include their translation, not to force another persons translation upon them. Xtremedood tried to use the translation done by the fringe group Lahore movement and then wrote in his edit summary that he was using the translation from the Ahmadiyyah. This is utter bad faith. I don't know what else to call it. Therefore my reservations still remain.

Also the article is about the LIFE of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Aliah Salam. We should include what happened during his life, this is a biography. You can read the articles on anyone else and it will not include this kind of criticism which is basically hate speech and fringe theories.

Therefore we should mention that he called the eclipse a sign from God and if someone criticised it during that time i.e 1894 we should mention that person. Going into criticisms and claims after the person's life has ended have no reason for mention in his life history. This is the case with ALL other pages from Jesus to Moses. Life history does not include criticisms which are published 50 years after the death. The place to include them is the page about his teachings or the page about his miracles.

Also mentioning these writers in the articles page breaks the coherence. We are writing that in 1984 he claimed that an eclipse was a sign and then instead of going onto tell what he did in 1895, we start to mention what a writer wrote in 1970. Therefore this has no place in this article. Also you can see from the other signs given in the article that they carry only the critics of his age and what they said at the time has been mentioned.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 04:38, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you FreeAtLatsChitChat for your response. However the first paragraph was filled with derogatory statements about the other editor. I will not tolerate such posts. We are here to discuss content only not editor behavior. I don't care what happened in the past. We are here now in the present discussing sources and proposed text in a moderated setting. Please limit all future comments to discussion of content only. Thank you.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 17:19, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The issue seemed solved to me, however I woke up today to see that Freeatlastchitchat reverted the edits and made considerable changes to the article itself, I have since reverted it back to its original. The translation I have provided is the same as that in the source he provides, however it does not include any interpretations within the quotation (prophecy) itself. I have utilized both the "Lahori Ahmadiyya" sources as well as "non-Ahmadi" sources for this translation. "Lahori Ahmadis" are a group of "Ahmadis" who have a significant following with the "Ahmadiyya" community and they love and respect Mirza. The translation I have provided is a direct translation of the prophecy in question, according to a variety of different sources. As an editor I have worked on a variety of Wikipedia articles and I have not seen such interpretations mixed in with the translations of quotes like this before. When dealing with quotes I see that they are usually direct quotes, not interpretations of quotes. I believe it is a clear violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy, as highlighted in Wikipedia's five pillars. In my most recent edit I have included both points of view and it provides for an analysis of the content based on Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Directly under the prophecy itself I provide for the "Ahmadi" interpretation: "Ahmadis interpret this prophecy as the lunar eclipse occurring on the first possible nights of Ramadan and the solar eclipse occurring on the middle possible day of Ramadan,[30] whereas many critics interpret the prophecy according to what is literally stated in the prophecy, which is that the lunar eclipse will occur on the first night of Ramadan and the solar eclipse on the middle night of Ramadan." The statements after this statement then go to expound upon the various points of view of this prophecy and how it pertains to the personality of Mirza himself. I believe including both sides is a crucial aspect of adhering to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Xtremedood (talk) 19:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Issue #1
Ok, we will discuss one issue at a time. The first issue is: FreeAtLast, please provide the text you would like to add to the article and the reliable source(s) that support that text so we can discuss it together. Thank you.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 17:19, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * the translation of the Prophecy used by the Ahmadiyyah
 * "For our Mahdi, there are two signs which have never happened since the earth and the heavens were created, i.e., the moon will be eclipsed on the first of the possible nights in the month of Ramadhan and the sun will be eclipsed in the middle of the possible days of the month of Ramadhan."  Ref: Dar Qutni Vol. 1, page 188  The website is the official website of the Ahmadiyyah Muslim community and it is sanctioned by their supreme leader, it is therefore, the most reliable source of information about Ahmadiyyah community on the internet. I will just copy paste the Arabic too because that will come into the discussion later إن لمهدينا آيتين لم تكونا منذ خلق السماوات والأرض ينكسف القمر لأول ليلة من رمضان وتنكسف الشمس في النصف منه ولمتكونا منذ خلق الله السموات والأرض.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, I've made some changes to the formatting for the reference part of your comment. We don't have a RefList section on this page so just list the Ref info in text please.
 * It appears FreeAtLast wants to include a quote from the "official website of the Ahmadiyyah Muslim community". User:Xtremedood, what are your objections to this content?-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 19:27, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Alternately if you have another version of the content please list that here and provide sources. You may also cut and paste a portion of your comment from yesterday to this section if needed. Thanks.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 19:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks and sorry for the late response as I was busy with university and other work. It is first important to note that the so called "translation" from the official website, as Freeatlastchitchat is describing is not a direct translation, but a translation PLUS an interpretation of the text. No where is it mentioned in Arabic that the moon will be eclipsed on the so called "possible" days, but rather it clearly states the first day and middle day of Ramadan, respectively. I think by including the translation from the so called "official" website, it violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy, as described in the five pillars of Wikipedia. Clearly the "official" website has its biases, and I think it should not remain in the translation. What I propose is a direct translation, as evident from a variety of sources, including both "Ahmadiyya" and "non-Ahmadiyya" sources. The direct translation of the prophecy in Dar Qutni is as follows: "For our Mahdi there are two signs which have never appeared before since the creation of the heavens and the earth, namely the moon will be eclipsed on the first night in Ramadhan and the sun will be eclipsed on the middle day in the same month of Ramadhan, and these signs have not appeared since God created the heavens and the earth."


 * This translation is direct and may be found on a variety of sources, including the famous moonsighting.com source as well as the "Lahore Ahmadiyya" community website (see 5, a. - "The Heavenly Sign").  The "Lahore Ahmadiyya" are a major sect within "Ahmadiyya" (there are 2 main sects) and they love and respect Mirza. There are also a variety of other sources that have this translation, if you wish for me to provide them I may do so.


 * In my edit on March 24th, however, I did indeed include the interpretation of the "official" website, as described by Freeatlastchitchat, but I did so after the direct translation of the prophecy. After stating the direct translation, I indicated both interpretations: "Ahmadis interpret this prophecy as the lunar eclipse occurring on the first possible nights of Ramadan and the solar eclipse occurring on the middle possible day of Ramadan,[30] whereas many critics interpret the prophecy according to what is literally stated in the prophecy, which is that the lunar eclipse will occur on the first night of Ramadan and the solar eclipse on the middle night of Ramadan"


 * I think this is in line with Wikipedia's NPOV policy, as it adequately describes both interpretations of the prophecy as well as it goes into details pertaining to the viewpoints from both critics and supporters of Mirza. I think by only including the so called "official" translation + interpretation, Wikipedia would inadvertently be supporting a man's claim to be the Messiah and Mahdi, which is contrary to Wikipedia's policies. I believe the translation should remain as it has, prior to Freeatlastchitchat's edits. I have also included 4 criticisms on March 24 (one more from the initial 3), which I also think should be included, however, I do not want to take too much space here, so I may wait until if you ask for it. Thanks. Xtremedood (talk) 15:15, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. Let's finish discussing the 'official' quote before we move on to the criticisms. According to WP:RS secondary sources are generally preferred over primary sources. Primary sources may be used but they should be given appropriate weight in light of the available secondary sources and often it is prudent to give an inline attribution to the primary source so the the reader is aware the text is from the original source, in this case a quote from the BLP subject. I am not aware of anything in WP policy that would preclude the use of text based on secondary sources. It would seem to me that publishing both the direct quote from the primary source and the version published in secondary sources is a reasonable compromise in this matter. FreeAtLast, do you have some input in this regard?-- — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 21:19, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The sources given by Xtremedood are not reliable and should therefore be ignored. The reasons are


 * 1)Regarding the books and other anti Ahmadiyyah literature quoted here I would like to point out that secondary source is reliable if it is a third-party or independent source, with no significant financial or other conflict of interest. This is not the case here. There is massive and complete conflict of interest. Rather the source is a hate page and hate literature. ALSO the publication house is not reputable, they have no editorial oversight in place and they have no reputation for accuracy and fact checking. The very title of the book "False prophet of Qadian" should be a big red flag.(Analogy is that when writing a biography of Jesus, Moses, or anyone else we will never pick content from a work called "Jesus the false Messiah", although we may use its content in a separate section where we mention the people who oppose him)


 * 2)Even more importantly the sources quoted go against the dictionary and are therefore fringe. I see that Xtremedood has given the impression that these sources give a "literal" meaning, but that is not the case. A literal meaning should not go against the dictionary. The dictionary is the most reliable source we have so we must not go against it. Now according to the Arabic Lexicon (You can pick any one of them, I consulted 12 including the Lisan-al-Arab and the Taj-ul-Uroos) the word used in this prophecy "Qamar" can never be used with the first night of any lunar month. In the entire Arabic literature the word "Qamar" is never ever used to mean the moon of the first night. Long explanation of this statement is that the prophecy says "the Qamar will be eclipsed on the first night of the month", but the word Qamar cannot ever mean the moon on the first night of the month, because as opposed to English the Arabic language does not have a general word "moon" which can be used everywhere, rather they use different words for different phases of moon (this is used in english too like crescent, new moon and full moon, but not that specifically, we can say moon anytime we want even if it is the first of a month, but the Arabic language does not allow this, the first moon will be called "hilal" and never ever "Qamar") . Therefore any translation which tries to say that Qamar means the moon which appears on the first date of a month will go against the dictionary and be therefore unreliable. For you see when a person who can read Arabic studies the prophecy he understands at once that the prophecy cannot refer to the first night's moon, but when we try to translate it into english using only one word "moon" it presents an absurdity like for example saying that "The full moon will be eclipsed on the first night of a month". Even though this is common knowledge to anyone who knows Arabic and can read, I would like to quote http://aaiil.org/text/articles/light/solarlunar.shtml as my source. I would like to point out that this website has already been included in the list of "reliable" sources by Xtremedood and should not be contested now. They have provided Lisan Ul Arab as their source of translation and have provided an explanation with their translation. So either we can put the translation with the explanation or we can use the one which I have given, either way the translation given in the sources quoted by Xtremedood cannot be used because it goes against the dictionary.


 * 3)Lastly I would again like to reiterate that we should not include hate literature in this discussion. This is just a suggestion, I will leave it upto the DRN volunteer to decide. Thank you. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:21, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
 * 1)Sources are not hate literature. This is diverting the issue. "Lahore Ahmadiyya" is an official group within the "Ahmadiyya" community. moonsighting.com is a word renowned and reputable source.
 * 2) You are introducing primary research (of your own), which is incorrect. Once again you are diverting the issue. This is the "Ahmadiyya" interpretation of the prophecy, not a direct translation. I could go further in detail, however it is important not to divert the issues. Xtremedood (talk) 09:13, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of quote
OK, just to be very clear, we are discussing the quote below and nothing else. Please do not comment on or reference other text or other sources as it only serves to confuse and create obstacles to our discussion.: Please provide a link to the source (or explain how we can access the source) that verifies this quote and we will discuss the validity of that source and then we will move on to other sources and their corresponding text. Please keep all future posts brief and to the point as I don't read walls of text. Thank you.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 16:38, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "For our Mahdi, there are two signs which have never happened since the earth and the heavens were created, i.e., the moon will be eclipsed on the first of the possible nights in the month of Ramadhan and the sun will be eclipsed in the middle of the possible days of the month of Ramadhan."
 * "For our Mahdi, there are two signs which have never happened since the earth and the heavens were created, i.e., the moon will be eclipsed on the first of the possible nights in the month of Ramadhan and the sun will be eclipsed in the middle of the possible days of the month of Ramadhan."  Ref: Dar Qutni Vol. 1, page 188  I would also like to link the dictionary where it says that the word "Qamar" cannot be used for the first night of the month

"والقَمَرُ الذي في السماء. قال ابن سيده: والقَمَر يكون في الليلة الثالثة من الشهر، وهو مشتق من القُمْرة، والجمع أَقْمار. وأَقْمَرَ صار قَمَراً، وربما قالوا: أَقْمَر الليلُ ولا يكون إِلا في الثالثة؛ أَنشد الفارسي: يا حَبَّذا العَرَصاتُ ليَـ ـلاً في لَيالٍ مُقْمِرات أَبو الهثيم: يسمى القمر لليلتين من أَول الشهر هلالاً، ولليلتين من آخره، ليلة ست وعشرين وليلة سبع وعشرين، هلالاً، ويسمى ما بين ذلك قَمَراً. الجوهري: القَمَرُ بعد ثلاث إِلى آخر الشهر يسمى قمراً لبياضه، وفي كلام بعضهم قُمَيْرٌ، وهو تصغيره.والقَمَرانِ الشمس والقمر." I used http://www.baheth.net/ to look up the word. It combines many dictionaries.


 * The translation should not include the word "possible" in it. It is a clear mistranslation as the word 'possible' is not in the original source. This is validated by moonsighting.com, the "Lahore Ahmadiyya" website, and also it is in the so called "official Ahmadiyya" site that Freeatlastchitchat is talking about. As we can see from this source the prophecy from Dar Qutni is translated, however, there are two brackets included in the tranlsation which are interpretations of the prophecy. This is mixed with the translation to confuse people. This is what I am referring to:, 1)"(i.e., on the first of the nights on which a lunar eclipse can occur)" and 2) "(i.e., on the middle day on which a solar eclipse can occur)."


 * According to world renowned and respected (not hate speech) moonsighting.com, we see that they have translated it in the same way (without the interpretation in brackets). We see in this secondary source that the prophecy is being interpreted as occurring on the first and middle day of Ramadan, not so called "possible days." There are also necessary criticisms of the "Ahmadiyya" position that require this interpretation of the translation for it to make sense, such as those made in Rizvi's book. According to the "Lahore Ahmadiyya" official website, which is also an official "Ahmadiyya" group, we see the prophecy stated in the same manner (see 5, a. - "The Heavenly Sign"). The so called "official Ahmadiyya" website as described by Freeatlastchitchat is not a reliable source as they are on record of promoting what is in accordance to their religious agenda in a biased way. However all three sources point to quote mentioned on my edit on March 24th to be correct. This is as exactly mentioned: "For our Mahdi there are two signs which have never appeared before since the creation of the heavens and the earth, namely the moon will be eclipsed on the first night in Ramadhan and the sun will be eclipsed on the middle day in the same month of Ramadhan, and these signs have not appeared since God created the heavens and the earth.— Dar Qutni Vol. 1, page 188". Xtremedood (talk) 09:24, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * If the quote is going to be included in the article it will need to be included verbatim, as reported by the source. WP doesn't allowed modified quotes based on conclusions or facts drawn from other sources per WP:OR. The source appears to be a legitimate source especially if it has an inline attribution.  However, I'm wondering, if we are not quoting the BLP subject is this quote appropriate for the article? See WP:Coatrack. --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 16:41, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * what exactly will be the meaning of verbatim here? Giving the translation used in the hate literature quoted by Xtremedood will create absurdity as I have mentioned earlier. Without the explanation the translation is not complete. Original research is something which the editor does himself, however this translation is taken from a reliable source and corroborated by the dictionary, not done by an editor.While the translation quoted against it goes against the dictionary. The dictionary shows that the thing which will be eclipsed is called "Qamar", and Qamar cannot be translated as "moon" when used with a lunar date, it will have to be translated as "moon from the fifth till the 26th". This is why the official website has given the explanation with the translation. And I would again like to point out that the sources quoted are considered hate pages(except the official website ofc). The Simple evidence of this fact is that they use the slur "Qadiani" to refer to Ahmadis. It is tantamount to someone writing about African Americans and then using the title "The this and that of NIGGERS". As the source uses a word which has the similar status as nigger, the source is a hate page. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 17:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Verbatim, means quoting the source you have cited per WP:OR. Again I remind you to confine your comments to the single item we are discussing ie the quote and the single source you have given.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 18:25, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Another possible source for the quote

 * Ok.I have done some searching and seeing that the only negative in the source was OR and Primary I have found another source which verifies and corroborates the text found in the website. Here we can see that the text is almost identical give or take a couple of grammatical differences which will occur in two different translations no matter how close they are. this solves the Original research and Primary source problem. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * This source is affiliated with your initial source (official website of "Ahmadiyya") and therefore it should not be treated as differently. Please refer to page 362 on the text for proof or click this link. Xtremedood (talk) 00:19, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

There is no wikipedia policy that says "affiliation" should be considered. If your only problem is affiliation then please quote a wikipedia policy about it. The article on secondary sources clearly says that ALL secondary sources are biased. This is a secondary source per wikipedia policy. Also the author is merely pointing out that the Ahmadiyyah website is present on the internet and it can be used to get more information about some things described in the book. Just becuase a website is given at the back of the book does not make the book unreliable.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 04:16, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, good. You have found a secondary source. If there are concerns about the source being biased or affiliated then there can be an inline attribution. Something like: According to the book ABC by author XYZ "yada, yada............".  My only caution is that the quote needs to be verbatim from the one source. Is this OK with everyone?--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 21:14, 1 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I am okay with using: "For our Mahdi there are two signs which have never appeared before since the creation of the heavens and the earth, namely the moon will be eclipsed on the first night in Ramadhan and the sun will be eclipsed on the middle day in the same month of Ramadhan, and these signs have not appeared since God created the heavens and the earth.— Dar Qutni Vol. 1, page 188" as this is a direct translation and verbatim. I am not okay with using words like "possible" or the messages included in brackets (i.e. possible days of eclipse, etc.) that are found in the "official Ahmadiyya" website, because this is not verbatim. Xtremedood (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I am ok with using the text given here, inline sounds good. I will just copy the text here "There are two testimonies for our Mahdi(another name for Messiah) which have never occured since the creation of this universe and that is a lunar eclipse will occur on the first night (of the lunar eclipse dates) in the month of Ramadhan, and, the sun would be eclipsed in the middle(of the solar eclipse dates of the same month (of Ramadhan)". I would again like to point out that the text quoted by Xtremedood appears in hate literature (where derogatory slurs are used to refer to ahmadies). FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 04:41, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Not hate literature. Being critical of the "Ahmadiyya" position is not hate. Do not divert the issue. Stay focused. None of what I stated was hate speech. Xtremedood (talk) 17:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Now.......... we have a bit of an issue with this book as a source and I apologize for not seeing this sooner. The book is self published by iUniverse Publishing. WP:SELFPUB says that self published books and sources should not be used unless they give non-controversial info about the subject itself ie the author of the self published book. Since this self published book is giving information about someone other then themselves it would be categorized as an opinion, possibly an expert opinion, but still an opinion. That means we are back to the 'official' website as the most acceptable source for this quote because they at least appear to have some kind of editorial staff. If both editors agree that the quote is relevant to the BLP and that it will appear in the BLP verbatim per the 'official' website, then we can move ahead. Is this acceptable? --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 21:24, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * FreeAtLast, for the last time stay on point. We will discuss other sources when we finish with this one. Either way I don't want to hear the words "hate literature" again. That phrase is off topic, inflammatory and unproductive. This is your last warning.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 21:24, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * As I have stated I am not okay with the quote in the book as it is not verbatim. What IS verbatim is the following: "For our Mahdi there are two signs which have never appeared before since the creation of the heavens and the earth, namely the moon will be eclipsed on the first night in Ramadhan and the sun will be eclipsed on the middle day in the same month of Ramadhan, and these signs have not appeared since God created the heavens and the earth.— Dar Qutni Vol. 1, page 188" Statements like: "possible," "(of the lunar eclipse dates)," etc. which are interpretations, not verbatim texts, should not be included from my point of view. Xtremedood (talk) 01:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I am ok with the official website, we can put an inline saying that the Ahmadiyyah official website gives this translation. IF you are not comfortable with the website and the book which I provided you can insert the exact quote from which is a biographical account written by a person who was not even a muslim. And another work by the same author has already been accepted as a reliable source in the articleFreeatlastChitchat (talk) 04:33, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Xtremedood, I think we all agree the quote in the self published book is not acceptable. FreeAtLast is suggesting the quote be inserted verbatim from the 'official' website with an inline attribution indicating the source of the quote. This seems like an acceptable compromise to me. Is it OK with you? --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 21:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Since the exact quote from Freeatlastchitchat's source is not verbatim, I do not think it should be in the article. The verbatim text is what I have stated in my previous comment. I do not believe that the material on the so called "official site" is superior or better than any of the other sources I have indicated. I believe on the contrary that it is tainted with bias. Remember, Mirza is a historical personality, and the website Freeatlastchitchat is referring to is NOT his official representative, rather it represents a particular religious community (there are two groups of "Ahmadiyya", the Lahore Group and the Community Group). Freeatlastchitchat's website refers to the second group of "Ahmadis."


 * Mirza's life should be analyzed (and the quote as well) in a secular manner. I think the quote should be as indicated on the "official" website of the Lahore "Ahmadiyya" website (pro-Mirza) and the official moonsighting.com (critical of Mirza) website, which is: "For our Mahdi there are two signs which have never appeared before since the creation of the heavens and the earth, namely the moon will be eclipsed on the first night in Ramadhan and the sun will be eclipsed on the middle day in the same month of Ramadhan, and these signs have not appeared since God created the heavens and the earth.— Dar Qutni Vol. 1, page 188"


 * As we can see, there is no utilization of the word "possible," "(of the lunar days)," "(i.e. of the possible lunar days)," etc. in these two sources. This is important as the inclusion of these phrases means the quote is not verbatim. Whereas the text as identified on moonsighting.com or the Lahore "Ahmadiyya" website do not include such interpretations and therefore may be considered as verbatim. - (see 5, a. - "The Heavenly Sign" for the last link)


 * Therefore I conclude that the quote two paragraphs above this one is the right one to have in the article. Xtremedood (talk) 02:03, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Here is a source which is not biased or self published or connected to the Ahmadiyyah community. He corroborates the quote given in the official website. He can be quoted with an inline citation and that solves all problems.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 02:22, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Administrative side note: User:FreeatlastChitchat and User:Xtremedood, Sorry, This case was autoarchived by the bot but I've reinstated it. Let's continue.......--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 14:10, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Yet another source
No problem. As I said this source is the very definition of reliable. Written by a well known author, book published by a third party publishing house; he has no connection to either Ahmadiyyah or to any other party which has interest in the article, therefore he is the best source for the prophecy. He says exactly what is written on the website. We can use him as the source and mention that the Ahmadiyyah website has the same translation. I hope we can now lay this to rest and move onto the criticisms as there is no source which can be compared to this as far as reliability is concerned. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 14:52, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
 * This does appear to be the best source we seen so far. According to WP:SOURCE Preferred sources are:
 * University-level textbooks
 * Books published by respected publishing houses
 * Magazines
 * Journals
 * Mainstream newspapers
 * Websites can be used as sources but they would not take precedence over a book published by a legitimate publishing house and having its origin at the University of Virginia.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 15:09, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
 * <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b>.As the volunteer managing this debate it will be better if you put in the text instead of one of us. So I will not edit the article, you can put the prophecy in the article ,using inline if you want.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 15:33, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


 * If this is the criteria then I believe I have found even better sources than Freeatlastchitchat's. Here is the first source This was published in Islamic Studies Vol. 41 No.4. On page 664-665, we see the following stated: "For out Mahdi's appearance, there are two signs that have never existed since God created the heavens and the earth. One of them is the solar eclipse in the middle of Ramadan, and the second is the lunar eclipse at the beginning of Ramadan."  Islamic Studies is an internationally peer-reviewed and internationally recognized journal.. The author, Zeki Saritoprak, is a distinguished professor and has held the Nursi chair at John Carroll University in Cleveland.  I therefore request for the translation of the quote to be as stated in this peer-reviewed and internationally recognized source. Xtremedood (talk) 21:33, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
 * As I said my source is more reliable as one of the basic pre requisits of reliability is that the source should not have conflict of interest. The sources you provided have conflict of interest which means that they are inherently against the Ahmadiyyah therefore they will always publish material against the ahmadiyyah. For example The Islamic research institute sent its eminent Professor Mehmood Ahmad Ghazi in 1984 to declare Ahmadies as Kafir. (Kafir is a term used by muslims to mean a person who does not believe in Islam and according to many muslims a person who is kafir should be killed at once). Now an institute which says that Ahmadis are not even muslims and thinks of them as Kafirs should not be considered a reliable source of information. This why I have been saying from the get go that our sources should not have conflict on interest. By the way what problems do you see in the source that I have provided.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:28, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I think that you have both provided academic quality sources. It is not uncommon for academics, reputable universities, newspapers etc. to have their own translation or interpretation of controversial topics (as do all WP editors). I would not disqualify a source or an editor for that reason. For this reason WP places emphasis on good editorial procedures for the publications it uses as sources so author bias can be minimized. At present I do not see any weakness in either source. My recommendation is that you take the issue of source quality to the Reliable Source Noticeboard at the end of this DRN to try and get some clarification, if possible, as to which source may or may not take precedent over the other. Unless one of you has a suggested compromise I'd like to defer this issue to WP:RSN and move on to the next issue.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 20:04, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Proposed compromise on quotes

 * The only compromise that I can come up with is that we mention Ian adamson's book at the start of the article and give the translation from it, then, where the "critics" are mentioned the "other" translation can be put in. This saves the long discussion at any other forum. If this is not acceptable then I guess we go on to the criticisms and I will submit a request at WP:RSN. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I am fine with moving on to the next issue. I will make a quick point however. Why not include both translations in the article (one right after the other on equal standing)? If Freeatlastchitchat is okay with this I think it may save us some time. If not, we may proceed on the Reliable sources/Noticeboard. It seems that KeithBob has done what he can for mediating on this issue and I think we should move on to the issues of the criticisms that was central to our main issue from the beginning. Xtremedood (talk) 06:36, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, we have two proposed compromises on the table. The commonality amongst both proposals is that both versions/translations appear in the article. The remaining point of agreement is where they should be placed. One suggestion is to place one at the start and the other in the Criticisms section. The second proposal is to put both translations in the same place. What shall we do?--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 16:02, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Putting them together creates the suggestion that perhaps both are endorsed by the Ahmadiyyah, and as the second translation is being used for criticisms it should be with the criticisms. If this is fine we can move to the next part of discussion. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:18, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Both sources should remain on equal standing if we are going to put both up. We can state both sources, mine from Zeki's article and his from Adamson's. This should make it clear the sources. As for endorsement, Wikipedia should remain neutral and I do not see on what basis anybody would think any of it would be endorsed by "Ahmadiyyah." Xtremedood (talk) 13:59, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I suggested the only compromise I could come up with. Giving both an equal standing is stating them both in the article, which is being done. As one source is used by the Ahmadiyyah it should appear at the start of the section, as the other is used by Critics it should appear before criticisms. I don't think putting them together makes any sense. Anyway if you are not even ok with my compromise we can talk about this later. I merely wanted to see at least some output from the discussion so far.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 16:44, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * My two cents: First cent, they have equal standing in terms of sourcing. Any other perceived standing is not relevant. Second cent, Since they are two slightly different versions of the same thing they should be side by side so the reader can see the difference and draw their own conclusions. To separate them is not in the reader's best interest in my opinion.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 17:25, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I am fine with this, KeithBob. Xtremedood (talk) 02:20, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I am sorry but I cannot accept this unless it is also mentioned that the Ahmadiyyah accept only one of the sources and their reasons for doing so. If this is mentioned with the sources it won't lead to disambiguation and both can be mentioned together at the start. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 11:53, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Any comments?FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:06, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Xtremedood any final comments before we move on to the next section?--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 18:27, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I am fine with your suggestion that the quotes stay together. Xtremedood (talk) 20:28, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Summary of Issue #1 - OK we've identified some common ground here and we've agreed that academic sources cite two different translations and per this essay it would be prudent to give both translations in the article and attribute them to their respective sources. With that I'm closing this section of the discussion and we can move on to the final issue surrounding the use of criticism and their corresponding sources.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 18:07, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Issue #2
What is the next sentence and corresponding citation(s) that you would like to discuss?--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 18:14, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the next issue is the "criticisms". I would like to suggest a compromise where any criticism which does not use the word Qadiani is added and the response from the ahmadiyyah is added after the criticism. Any comments regarding this?FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:23, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello, I think it is important to include criticisms in this section. Prior to my edits, the article contained only 1 criticism. Freeatlastchitchat would eventually delete all the criticisms. This one criticism was criticisms pertaining to the veracity of the prophecy itself (i.e. veracity of the prophecy, dispute of the authenticity of the source, the source is weak, etc.). I also wish to include 3 more criticisms (a total of 4) to the section. They are as followed: 2) the indication that critics do not believe that the eclipses occurred on the 1st and middle-day (~15th) of Ramadan 1894/1895 respectively (as outlined in the prophecy, according to the translation provided in the Zeki source of the quote on issue 1(Islamic studies magazine)), 3) according to critics, the prophecy is referring to before the arrival of the Mahdi, not after, and 4) the criticism by David McNaughton, who outlines that even according to the tranlsation + interpretation of the initial quote by the "Ahmadiyyah" (which is from the Adamson's source of the quote on issue 1), the eclipses did not potentially occur as described by "Ahmadis." David McNaughton makes it clear that the "Ahmadiyyah" claim of the eclipses happening on the 13th and 28th of Ramadhan is prone to error as the eclipses may have happened on the 12th and 27th.


 * The sources for the first criticism are: and


 * The source for the second criticism is: on page 100.


 * The source for the third criticism is: on page 100 (same page as last one).


 * The sources for the fourth criticism are: and, the first link is from what seems to be his official site. Xtremedood (talk) 08:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I am fine with inclusion of four criticisms if the Ahmadiyyah response is included with them. However, I can't agree with the sourcing as they use the derogatory slur "Qadiani" to refer to the Ahmadiyyah. I am fine with using David McNaughton if it is mentioned alongside his "surmise" that almost all muslims start and end lunar months with "visibility" of the moon and not "astrological positions of the moon". So basically criticism number four is good to go if you want to use the official website, and if you can replace the sources for the first three I can agree with those too, but at the present these books are not reliable.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 09:55, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm watching and reading along. Let's see what the response is to this proposed compromise.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 21:53, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The term 'Qadiani' is not derogatory, as it refers to a place (Qadian in India). Mirza was from Qadian, in India. The terms '"Ahmadiyya"' and '"Ahmadi"' derive from one of the names of the holy Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ, blessings of Allah be upon him and peace be upon him) which is 'Ahmad'. Muslims believe that the name 'Ahmad' is so holy that it should not be utilized for a group of people who believe in a different prophet after the holy Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ, blessings of Allah be upon him and peace be upon him). Mirza claimed to be a prophet. Muslims consider the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to be the final Prophet as described in the Quran (Chapter 33 verse 40). "Ahmadis" however disagree. Since this is a theological difference of belief (not racism or prejudice) I believe that the term 'Qadiani' should be allowed. It has been the official position of the Government of Pakistan to utilize the term 'Qadiani' for the followers of Mirza. If the Government of Pakistan were operating upon legitimate positions of racism and prejudice it should be held accountable under International law, since racism and prejudice violates international law. However there is no case of the Government of Pakistan ever being held accountable for utilizing the term 'Qadiani' since this term stems from theological differences of belief, definitely NOT racism, discriminiation or prejudice. Since the term 'Qadiani' is based on theological differences (NOT racism, discrimination or prejudice) and Wikipedia is in no position to interpret theological discourse, the term 'Qadiani' should therefore be allowed.


 * Also, for criticism number 1, the following source does not utilize the term 'Qadiani.'


 * So far then, criticisms number 1 and number 4 seem legitimate according to both parties. Xtremedood (talk) 21:22, 18 April 2015 (UTC)


 * OK then, before we discuss anything else, can we confirm that #1 and #4 are "legitimate according to both parties"? Then we can take any remaining criticisms one by one and discuss them. Thanks.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 19:38, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed on both. I would like to add that if Xtreme can find a book for the first it will be better. I don't want to bicker, just commenting on the fact that a book source will go down better, I am fine with anything that does not use "Qadiani" so even the website is ok with me, but someone else may come to the article and slap an unreliable on it. I would also like to clarify that Qadiani says that the term is a slur, so this is not just my personal opinion. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:27, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Good then let's move on to this source being cited for the second criticism, on page 100. The objection is that it is using the term Qadiani? Is that the only objection? --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 15:00, 21 April 2015 (UTC) Now that I've had a chance to look at the sources.............Qadiani is a derogatory term and should not be used in the article. However I'm not sure that automatically disqualifies the source from being cited in the article without the Qadiani term.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 15:32, 21 April 2015 (UTC) Now, upon closer examination, I see that are many issues concerning the proposed sources for criticisms:
 * Central-Mosque website - The content is anonymous. There is no information about the organization, who the writers are, what their expertise is, if there is an editorial board etc. This is not a reliable source.
 * Moonsighting.com -  The author here is Khalid Shaukat who is allegedly a consultant to Fiqh Council of North America and the Islamic Shura Council of North America.  Consultant is a pretty vague word so I'm not impressed with those claims. I see no sign of editorial oversight or that this website has received any recognition or awards from third parties for its fact checking and reliability.
 * Muhammad is the Last Prophet – Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi is a prolific author but the book is Published by the Bilal Muslim Misson of Tanzania which was co-founded by the author so it does not appear to have editorial oversight. This source is better than the two previous ones but it appears to be a self published source and has strong potential for bias.
 * David McNaughton’s personal website – Personal websites are not reliable sources.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 16:57, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
 * This has been my statement from the get go. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 14:25, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Most of the content is not in English, so there is a lack of academic sources pertaining to the matter at hand (even for the pro-"Ahmadiyya" stance). Similar statements may be stated about the claims of the official website of the "Ahmadiyya," since much of their own published material is self-published, lacks fact checking from third parties, often anonymous, and may be considered biased. However the website is sourced throughout the article and is the most common source within the article "". For example if we look at the opening section, "" is the most common source of information. There is no third-party fact checking going on, on this website and there is no indication of editorial oversight. Sources like these "", which are also included as sources within the article are anonymous as well. If we look at the article we see that probably over 50% of the sources are from this one single website. With this in mind I see not much difference in the nature of the content from these four sources than the material being used by "".


 * Here are some additional sources for the criticisms:


 * criticism 1,


 * criticism 2, <- same as last one.


 * criticism 3, on page 46 it clearly states "Before the Mahdi rises"


 * criticism 4, David McNaughton's work is also cited in the "Ahmadiyyah" website. It states: Dr David Mc Naughton has pointed out that lunar eclipses can occur on 13th, 14th and 15th and solar eclipses on 28th and 29th. Only under special circumstances, a solar eclipse can occur on the 27th of the Islamic month. Also, under special circumstances, a lunar eclipse can occur on the 12th. Hence the dates of the eclipses should be taken as 13, 14, 15 and 28, 29 or as 12, 13, 14, 15 and 27, 28, 29. Xtremedood (talk) 22:02, 23 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi Xtremedood and thanks for your response. You are correct that the other primary sources with no editorial oversight are also not reliable sources for information that is controversial or that is being challenged by other editors. The fact that they call themselves the 'official' website of XYZ doesn't hold water by SP [WP] standards. The additional sources you have provide are likewise unreliable for the same reasons. The book you have cited appears to be self published and would in most cases not qualify for the same reason(s).--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 19:46, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
 * As I stated earlier, the only compromise I think is suitable for present is to put in the two translations, then put in the the two criticisms which do not use the word Qadiani, followed by the response to said criticisms from the Ahmadiyyah website. You can search around for better sources for other criticisms and if you find anything which does not use the slur you can put that in too. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 02:57, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Closing notice and comments
I'm going to wait a day or two, so the particpants can make final comments if they wish, and then I'm going to close this case. Here are the reasons why:
 * 1) DRN "is an informal place to resolve small content disputes"  (emphasis added) and this is not a small dispute.
 * 2) DRN cases are generally completed within two weeks and this case has been going on for more than a month
 * 3) The more we discuss the more new issues arise. I don't feel that we are close to a resolution.
 * 4) The issues that are being raised here regarding reliable sources, POV etc. are issues that apply to the specific sections under discussion and the entire article.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 19:46, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Closing Comments: What I see is that this biography of a religious figure is being used as a battleground for editors of different ideologies. Aside from the use of unreliable sources I see in the article: POV language, undue weight and off-topic information being included to prove a point. I suggest you consider this article for mediation so the many issues there can be ironed out.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 19:46, 24 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your effort, Keithbob.
 * FreeatlastChitchat, it seems that both your source "" as well as my sources are considered unreliable according to Wikipedia standards outlined by Keithbob. If this is the case and since there is no final resolution, we should then start deleting all of the references to "" which amounts to maybe 70%-80% of the articles content. Since this may take a lot of time and is seemingly quite a cumbersome task, perhaps we may leave the article as it is and I can introduce my 4 criticisms and you may wish to add your own perspective on the matter after that. After stating the quote of the alleged prophecy by Saritoprak and Adamson(as agreed in issue#1) we may place a heading called "perspective of critics on the alleged prophecy" and under that you may wish to place your own perspective under a different heading. This may be a valid compromise to the issue in which both of our perspectives are addressed. That way we have both perspectives, even if they may be considered from "unreliable" or non-academic sources.


 * In case this discussion gets closed I now have posted the same message on your talk page.Xtremedood (talk) 05:27, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll keep this open for another day or two to see if the two of you can agree on one of the proposals you've outlined. I think we have made some good progress here and I don't want to cut off a possible final compromise. So please proceed keeping in mind that we are now in the phase of wrapping things up. Thanking both of you for your good faith participation and efforts to find common ground and adhere to WP guidelines. I know things can become heated on contentious articles and I commend both of you for your continued participation in the dispute resolution process.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 19:55, 25 April 2015 (UTC)


 * FreeatlastChitchat, I noticed that you posted above; for organization I will post here. To use the word 'Qadiani' in a source is legitimate, even if you may consider it deragatory (which I disagree with you regarding this- my reasons are above). Keithbob has informed me that he considers it derogatory as well and therefore it should not be included within the article, however the use a source that uses the word 'Qadiani' is legitimate. There are many historical sources that utilize words that may be considered derogatory, however, these sources are still considered legitimate. For example, if you study the American Civil War a variety of sources utilize the word 'Negro' which is considered derogatory in a racial sense. However the word 'Negro' does not appear on the article even though many sources utilize it. Utilizing a word that may be considered derogatory by some does not invalidate the source. Although using the word 'Qadiani' in the article for this section may be omitted, the points provided by the source should be included as they are legitimate concerns based on sound reasoning. There is no rule (that I know of) restricting me from using this on Wikipedia. The reliability of the source is another issue. As previously stated, both your source "" and a variety of the sources I provided are deemed by Keithbob as unreliable or potentially unreliable. The focus should therefore be on reliability. Since this seems to be the case and since there is no final resolution, I am proposing a potential compromise in which we keep the content and include my 4 criticisms and you may wish to include your perspective after that. If that is not the case and if we decide to only focus on reliable sources then that means the deletion of maybe 70%-80% of the article's content, since the main source is your source.
 * Keithbob, just a quick question, I was wondering since there is no resolution and edit warring is prohibited by Wikipedia, what other actions may we take if we do not agree? Xtremedood (talk) 07:21, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * There are several avenues for dispute resolution and you can see the options here and here.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 18:12, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not the moderator of this discussion, but I would suggest either formal mediation (the heavy-weight version for which this is the light-weight version) or multiple Requests for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I have opened up request for formal mediation. One pre requisite is that this case be closed so that we move on the mediation. As this is a step up from this ongoing case I would like to suggest that we close this and move onto formal mediation. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 02:50, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Balija
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

We had given proper citation and sources to have some edits in our Balija community page,But Sitush from Wiki keep on deleting that and stating that its a unreliable source and we know better about our community and We are searching past sources and providing that and also we dont want some unwanted information mentioned in the wiki page that creates bad impression on Wiki too.So we want our edits should be reflected and we got proved our Varna to be Kshatriyas and given good proofs and not simply editing.We need a clarity in this regard and we dont have any dispute with Sitush but why he is reverting back all again to old one, we dont aware and we need this issue to be resolved. Regards - Karthick Simhadri

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we clearly stated a valid proof

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You can review again the source provided by us and solve the dispute.

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Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Balija discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

LGBT rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

They are adding in sources from people, who cannot be proven as actually visiting there, that supposedly claim that homosexuality is common and done publicly in the KSA and are ignored (which contradicts sources saying all these punishments that cruelly happen to gays in Saudi Arabia). I don't know if the sources are legit and I fear that if they are left on the page, people who are LGBT may incorrectly think that Saudi Arabia is tolerant and accepting of their behavior, which may make them act gay openly, leading to them possibly getting fined, whipped, castrated, deported, tortured, executed or killed by a vigilante execution (which all happens in Saudi Arabia). I am considered that any false or misleading sources like this make directly or indirectly make gays feel too comfortable in this harsh environment for gays and then they could get injured, jailed, deported, or even killed. We dispute on the talk page if this is an issue or not. What are your thoughts?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried talked on boogielou's talk page

How do you think we can help?

Decide if you think gays are endangered with this added info and then freeze the page after making your decision to prevent vandalism

Summary of dispute by Brisvegas
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Summary of dispute by Flyer22
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Summary of dispute by Rosclesce
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Summary of dispute by BoogieLou
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Summary of dispute by PaulinSaudi
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LGBT rights_in_Saudi_Arabia discussion
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Alternatiba, Village of Alternatives
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have already discussed this issue on the User_talk:Sionk page and on the Talk:Alternatiba,_Village_of_Alternatives page.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview
 * and

There is disagreement over the allowance of publishing information about future events. Because, according me, there are a lot of cultural events for next 2015, 2016, 2017 and over, both for opera, film, dance or other festivals, which are already announced on the EN WP. So, as Alternatiba is aimed to diffuse toward the world wide population encyclopedical information about cultural and social life, I believed that it is also possible to inform on the EN WP sourced materials about the future European Alternatiba events, just as it is already done on the French and Spanish WP (with 41 references). Otherwise, pretends that announcing future events is a kind of advertising, that is not the purpose of Alternatiba.

So my contributions have been modified and meanly removed repeatedly by a particular user,.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried to discuss this issue 3 times on the User_talk:Sionk for trying to engage the dialogue with that individual. But I din't get any reply for my last demand. Then I have published a longer argument concerning the possibility of announcing future cultural events such as opera, film. I publish first this question on the User_talk:Sionk page and then on the Talk:Alternatiba,_Village_of_Alternatives page in order to enlarge the debate.

How do you think we can help?

Discourage Sionk from edit warring, and merely removing my adds of future Alternatiba events. I would like to engage in meaningful dialogue on the possibility of publishing future events already based on real work rather than being disregarded, and removed by one who acts as an unappointed authority. I would like to pursue that step if necessary as I am doing on French and Spanish WP.

Spanish political parties color templates
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

This user has started changing Spanish party colors in meta/color templates, after several years of those colors having been established. The issue is that, since those were established so much time ago, graphics, maps and other charts using those colors have been made already. As happens, this user is keen on pressing his edits forward without entering into discussion (well, yes, he's using edit summaries to talk with me (clearly not the most opportune place) talking in my talk page just to notice me that he is keeping reverting me, without an apparent intention to stop the edit war, qualifying my arguments as "poor" without explaining how his are stronger, and even threatening to notice me to the administrators' noticeboard... despite being him the one wanting to press forward his change!). As it seems, it is an user who has engaged in such edit warring in the past, so I'd probably not be able to convince him alone without breaking the WP:3RR rule, since now that I can't edit further because of the rule, he has just stopped discussing with me.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I've tried to talk with him in his talk page. Despite showing him evidence of different uses of color shades by the parties, he just keeps on the "your arguments are poor" argument and goes on to revert me (when I'm just trying to keep the non-disputed version before any change) without even answering my own questions.

How do you think we can help?

To discourage Sfs90 from edit warring, as well as to convince him to actually enter into discussion before trying to press forward his changes (which are clearly disputed). I want him just to enter reason so as to the titanic work would suppose changing all maps, charts, graphics and the such (which he requires me to do, accusing me of being wrong) just because he felt like changing all parties' colors now all of a sudden. I'm not closed to change, but it requires discussion.

Summary of dispute by Sfs90
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Spanish political parties color templates discussion
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Talk:Vic Dibitetto
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

One or possibly two editors, under one IP address and two user accounts (with probably one user), appear to have taken ownership of the article on Vic Dibitetto. My own recent good-faith edit was reverted without explanation, and the earlier good-faith edits of at least one other editor have been also been undone (that editor was then "warned" on his talk page to stay away from the Vic Dibitetto article in a tone that was reminiscent of a mafia threat). I have attempted to engage one of these opposing parties (the IP user) on his talk page, but got no response. I am not the first. None of the opposing accounts seems to be interested in engaging in a discussion of the article on their own talk pages, and attempts to engage are ignored. The article currently has the format that these accounts have chosen for it, in violation of Wikipedia's policy on article "ownership." I am not 100% certain that this venue is the correct one to bring up this kind of dispute, so if there is another venue then please let me know.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have attempted to engage one of the parties on his talk page but was ignored. Multiple attempts have been made by others to engage the accounts in similar ways and have also been ignored. I see no point in additional talk page messages. I doubt the reviewer(s) of this dispute will disagree with me.

How do you think we can help?

The person(s) making the opposing edits should probably have their accounts temporarily suspended. Multiple warnings have just been ignored, and the request made through one of the accounts to stay away from the article is beyond the Wikipedia civility pale. This kind of behavior is probably the result of a single new editor who does not understand how Wikipedia works and apparently turns a deaf ear when shown how what he is doing is disruptive. I don't know what else to do or ask for.

Summary of dispute by Stuartyeates
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 * I worked on Vic Dibitetto after finding it on new pages patrol. I gave up and removed the article and associated pages from my watchlist when found it stressful going because of the SPAs involved. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Vicfan23
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Summary of dispute by ComedyMan4
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Summary of dispute by 67.87.138.217
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Talk:Vic Dibitetto discussion
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LegitScript as an expert reference
Have you discussed this on a talk page? No, I have not discussed this issue on a talk page already; it's been discussed at the Reliable Sources noticeboard.

Location of dispute http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Endurance International_Group&diff=659588708&oldid=659570758

Users involved Dispute overview

Removal of referenced edit, with LegitScript as an expert reference.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_188#Legitscript

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nodove#Endurance_International_Group

How do you think we can help?

I'm wanting clarification of why the edit is not a proper edit with a proper expert reference?

Summary of dispute by NorthBySouthBaranofm
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Summary of dispute by TheRedPenOfDoom
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LegitScript as an expert reference
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Harold B._Lee
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

There is disagreement over speculative statements. I believe that a specific paragraph violates wikipedia policies. As wikipedia stipulates: Speculation and rumor, even from reliable sources, are not appropriate encyclopedic content. Questionable sources, such as those relying on unsubstantiated opinion, should only be used as sources of material on themselves. They are not suitable sources for contentious claims about others. A critic has made claims about proceedings behind closed doors that no other source has verified, and which are not verifiable. Yet, the claims appear motivated to slander. It would also be an exceptional claim, which requires multiple high-quality sources, in particular, surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources; challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest. Quinn's speculation about Lee's efforts regarding African-Americans and the priesthood commits each of these errors.

As to resolution, my contributions have been blocked repeatedly by a particular user. Although he justifies his changes saying that others need to comment on my proposed changes, he refuses to engage with the merits of my discussion, does not offer reasons why the speculation should remain, in effect, reverting my proposal without dialogue or chance for consensus.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have sought an outside opinion. I engaged in dialogue with that individual. How do you think we can help?

Discourage ChristensenMJ from edit warring, and merely undoing my suggestions on the speculation. I would like to engage in meaningful dialogue on Quinn's speculation rather than being disregarded, overturned, and bypassed by one who acts as an unappointed authority. I also notice that numerous other wiki users have sought arbitration and edit war complaints against ChristensenMJ. I would like to pursue that step if necessary.

Summary of dispute by ChristensenMJ
I wasn’t notified of this, but happy to respond. The issue in question has largely continued because of the IP user’s insistence at eliminating, or significantly reducing, content that was not only sourced, but also had some longevity in the article. As a result, I indicated there should be opportunity for discussion & allowing the community to arrive at consensus. As with any talk page discussion, the consensus outcome might include removal, modification, or continued inclusion. That doesn't seem to have been received well by the IP user. As noted in additions today by another user, the content in question has not been an isolated assertion and other sources have been added. I have neither taken, assumed or asserted any “authority” over the article. I have tried to help a new WP user better understand the typical course of things. The claim that represents a pattern is quite incorrect. These supposed “numerous” situations, if any, might involve new, IP or wp:spa users, and would at best include those who blatantly or aggressively violate WP standards or practices. I'll even provide an example - such as at Gordon B. Hinckley, where a user kept trying to insert wording that several users felt violated a npov. I disengaged the user given the idea that “you can’t reason with a drunk” – in that case, that primary user was blocked indefinitely, long after I recognized the pointless efforts to engage in good faith, a view shared by other users – thus the block. In this specific instance, it should be noted that the user initiating this resolution request has used 4 different IP addresses, previously unused, to focus only on this article, and has several times been encouraged to establish an account. Additionally, the same IP user requested a wp:3O and the respondent there that found the content to be acceptable. ChristensenMJ (talk) 17:52, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Harold B._Lee discussion
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 * Volunteer note - I am neither accepting nor declining this case. Please be civil and concise, and comment on content, not on contributors.  It is difficult to engage in discussion with unregistered editors, especially with ones whose IP addresses keep changing.  It is also difficult to engage in discussion with editors who forget to sign their posts.  I will provide the same advice as has been given on the talk page that the unregistered editor should create an account, especially if he or she wants to discuss article content issues.  Robert McClenon (talk) 20:55, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, I'm L235, and I'll be opening this (per email to ). This is my first DRN case, so it'd be appreciated if other experienced volunteers make sure I'm not doing anything incorrectly. Thanks! --L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 22:36, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Welcome L235! You can put a note on the talk page if you have a question or get stuck on something. If you need a quick response you can ping myself or Transporterman etc. Good luck! --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 17:36, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Alright, let's get started. Remember, this is DRN, not ANI, so please keep discussions focused on content, not conduct or contributors. Why don't each of you start by making a very concise list of the disputes and issues, in each of your opinions? --L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 03:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * This will be closed as stale without objection after 24 hours. Thanks, --L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 03:37, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Glauciamiguel
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Email I sent that I had a reply: Subject: Re: [Ticket#2015050110014491] Rude Ignorant People on Wikipedia This is about the title of the page that now is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh It should be: Osho period! Next to the picture on the right it should be: Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh) And I don't have the time to discuss with this rude people that are editing the page (they are enemies of Osho; only enemies called him Rajneesh when he was alive). I won't use Wikipedia anymore, you are not reliable. Sincerely, Glaucia Pimenta Caraballo

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I'm not going there. I don't have time for this back and fourth: blah...blah ...blah with this stupid editors. Right is right. You don't change it around for your own contentment.

How do you think we can help?

Fix the title and locked it. He has a biography and many, many books. Educate yourselves: http://www.osho.com/, https://www.facebook.com/osho.international, http://www.oshoworld.com/,http://www.religioustolerance.org/rajneesh.htm, http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_p_n_feature_browse-b_mrr_1?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Aosho+books%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A2656020011&keywords=osho+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1430753326&rnid=618072011,

Summary of dispute by
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User talk:Glauciamiguel discussion
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Eunice Olumide
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I have tried to update 'supermodel. eunice olumide to her page. She is from my hometown and referred to as a Scottish Supermodel. I have added evidence and it keeps reverting back to only mode. Please let me know if you would like to me provide evidence from the press and media

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried to contact you about this and I have tried to update it

How do you think we can help?

Add Scottish Supermpodel

Summary of dispute by
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Eunice Olumide discussion
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My contributions to Emmanuel Lemelson and Lemelson Capital Management
Would appreciate your assistance. I have been an editor for a year and created the two articles above last year. I recently moved both to my sandbox so that I could make some modest improvements to both, including potentially restoring some content that was deleted for reasons largely unexplained and to potentially make other improvements, such as possibly adding new information in the year since I created both articles. Almost as soon as I moved both articles to my sandbox a few days ago, however, User:Smalljim began criticizing my involvement in the pages and saying that my contributions should be confined to the talk page. He has alleged that I have a conflict of interest, presumably because I dived into these two articles pretty aggressively and really have not had time yet to contribute much else. In reading Ignoring all rules--a beginner's guide and be bold, however, my approach seems permissible and encouraged. I have no conflict of interest and nothing about my edits has been unjustly critical or embellishing of the subject. In fact, despite review of both articles by multiple editors, the changes to my original drafts have been very modest and mostly cosmetic.

A lengthier exchange regarding all of this exists on my talk page. I am requesting that I be permitted to continue (time permitting) to make the modest modifications and additions to both articles in my sandbox and then, when I am comfortable that I've written them well and consistent with all guidelines, to move them live. I fully anticipate that my edits will be reviewed by others, and that's fine by me. I claim no ownership to the pages and am just looking to perfect what I believe to be two decent article contributions. Thanks very much for your attention and assistance. Orthodox2014 (talk) 00:31, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello Orthodox2014! I'm EnglishEfternamn, most people who know me here just call me "EE". I'm going to take a look at what's going on here and let Smalljim know that you've posted a complaint here and that you both are now involved in an ongoing dispute. Let's see if we can't get this sorted out. :) EnglishEfternamn  *t/c*  03:33, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Isn't there a template that's supposed to be completed? While I applaud Orthodox2014 for taking up my offers (on his talk page) of seeking some other input, the issue is his alleged COI and not article content, which we haven't really discussed at all. I'll reserve any material comments on the issue for now. —S MALL  JIM   10:08, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Smalljim, can you explain briefly why you think this is a conflict of interest? I looked over the conversation the two of you had in Orthodox2014's talk page and all I found thus far are your linking to WP's rules on COI's. And can you provide any links to edits and so on that would support your case? I know that's asking a lot but it's the first step into getting a good view of what's actually going on here. Thanks. EnglishEfternamn  *t/c*  11:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, EE. It's not just me: in my first post under the COI heading on his talk page, I listed three other editors who have raised COI concerns, with links to their comments.
 * Emmanuel Lemelson is a hedge fund manager and, unexpectedly, a Greek Orthodox priest. We have two articles: one on the person, and one on his company, Lemelson Capital Management. Both have been extensively edited by Orthodox2014, whose only other edits have been to an AfD on the company, an AfD nomination of another fund manager, and a few edits to some related articles (example) and some other Greek Orthodox religious figures (example). This narrow interest has continued despite my suggestion in July last year to do something else to avoid the appearance of only being here to promote Lemelson.
 * He has employed careful wording designed to puff up the subjects, and packed the articles with references, many of which were not independent, which he has several times promised to "look at" but did not substantially change. You can compare the current versions (as I've roughly edited them, per the AfD and talk page consensuses) with his last versions here and here.
 * Considering his behaviour in the light of WP:COI, I think there's little doubt that his main reason for being here is to promote Lemelson and his fund. But I don't think this is the correct venue to consider that matter as it's not a content dispute. —S MALL  JIM   12:16, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Female genital mutilation
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved

Dispute overview

I introduced changes that started an edit war. Edit warring stopped with the reverted version being protected. The protection has now expired and no progress has been made toward a consensus. I want to restore the changes but I think there's a risk that I could get blocked for edit warring if I do.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

5 days of discussion including edit warring noticeboard and reliable sources noticeboard posts and an RfC.

How do you think we can help?

An official decision needs to be made about this edit. I'm basing it on reliable sources, I don't have any doubts at all about their accuracy. Other editors insist that they aren't reliable enough for wikipedia. I've been told not to edit war but a consensus is impossible, my understanding is that the Mediation or Arbitration Committee has to issue a final statement on the edit. Which committee is the right one to request mediation/arbitration from in this case? Are there any other options?

Summary of dispute by AadaamS
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Summary of dispute by Johnuniq
I endorse SlimVirgin's detailed explanation. I mentioned at the article talk (28 April 2015) that the proposed edit consists of minor adjustments to a worldwide report published by UNICEF in 2013, with some updates since. The problem is that it would be WP:SYNTH for editors to "fix" a UNICEF report from other sources. Johnuniq (talk) 01:13, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by OnlyInYourMind
I stopped following the RfC because it makes my young account look like a sock, but from what I saw, PolenCelestial (PC) seemed to really want to good faith contribute to this article. But PC's edits were fully reverted by very experienced editors. I suspect PC is feeling marginalized because his/her efforts and research are being ignored. I imagine PC would be happy if at least a portion of his/her edits could be accepted. Hope it all works out. Bye! :-) OnlyInYourMind (talk) 07:19, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by SlimVirgin
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 * FGM is a recently promoted featured article and has to rely on the most authoritative and MEDRS-compliant sources. The article has been through a peer review, FAC review, and two external specialist reviews.

For the prevalence of FGM, the article relies on reports from UNICEF's Division of Data, Research and Policy. They produce regular updates based on Demographic and Health Surveys and Multiple Indicator Cluster Surveys, which are carried out in Africa, Asia and elsewhere every five years. These are the only reliable figures available from which national prevalence rates can be derived. These figures say that FGM is most concentrated in 27 countries in Africa, and in Iraqi Kurdistan and Yemen. FGM exists in other countries, and may be equally concentrated in other countries, but based on the figures currently available UNICEF deduces that it is most concentrated in those 29 countries.

Polencelestial wants to change the text about prevalence using two newspapers as sources, and one small survey carried out by a local group 12 years ago in Indonesia. PC wants to use those sources to introduce to the article that Indonesia and Malaysia are two of the countries in which FGM is most concentrated. In addition s/he wants to combine the percentage figures in the local survey and figures s/he has found elsewhere about population to deduce an overall country prevalence for Indonesia and Malaysia. This is a classic SYN violation.

We can't change the sources or allow in the calculation, because both would reduce the quality of the article. UNICEF mentions Indonesia and Malaysia in several reports, but makes clear that reliable national figures aren't available.

For example, UNICEF 2013: "Although no nationally representative data on FGM/C are available for countries including Colombia, Jordan, Oman, Saudi Arabia and parts of Indonesia and Malaysia, evidence suggests that the procedure is being performed" (p. 31). Footnote 63 (pp. 121–122) refers to the survey PC wants to use, but it isn't something from which a national prevalence figure can be derived. UNICEF 2014: "[FGM] is also found in ... parts of Indonesia and Malaysia ... but reliable data on the magnitude of the phenomenon in these other contexts are largely unavailable." Our article reflects this.

Several editors have explained the situation to Polencelestial. S/he has responded by restoring the changes, complaining to admins, opening an RfC and RSN, and now this. Sarah (SV) (talk) 03:05, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Zad68
Close this DRN request per the long-standing principle that DRN doesn't take cases if there's already another WP:DR pathway actively in use, and the OP already has an active RFC going at the article Talk page. OP has actually opened their complaint in at least 3 different places now, there isn't consensus to make the change proposed, this DRN request is just yet another go at it, forum-shopping should not be rewarded. 16:08, 4 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Guy well it's got a real RFC tag and Legobot is sending out RFC requests among others.  PC has also brought up the same complain here ( gave a solid reply there, referring to WP:NOCONSENSUS), there was this discussion at RSN, and the two separate article Talk page discussions.  I don't see the point in allowing it to be pursued here too, given that there's no consensus that PC's proposed changes will be an improvement to what's already an FA.   18:45, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by JzG
One person - one - demands that we include WP:SYN and sources massively less reliable than the bulk of the article, in order to reflect his personal belief.

This is not a matter for dispute resolution, it's a matter for the OP shutting up and accepting that consensus is solidly against him. Guy (Help!) 22:21, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Female genital mutilation discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am waiting for everyone to make their statements before opening this up for discussion. in the meantime, I encourage everyone involved to review our Dispute resolution and Consensus pages. Thanks! There is one thing that I need everyone involved to understand right from the start; DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors. If anyone has a problem with this, let me know and we can discuss whether I should turn the case over to another dispute resolution volunteer. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:28, 1 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I am still waiting for a couple of participants to either comment or indicate that they will not be participating. If I don't get a response in a day or so we will proceed without them.


 * Normally, I would either close a case or put it on hold if there is an ongoing RfC, but there really is no RfC in this case, just an ordinary talk page discussion with "RfC" in the section title. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:27, 4 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Alternate volunteer note - I am not the moderator, but another volunteer at this noticeboard. The article history shows that User:Legobot published the RFC ID on 27 September April 2015, so that the RFC does appear to be in progress.  The usual practice is then either that the author of the RFC can withdraw the RFC by pulling its Legobot tag to allow moderated discussion, or that moderated discussion can be closed to permit the dispute to be addressed by the RFC.  I will let the moderator and/or the editors decide which approach to take.  Robert McClenon (talk) 20:01, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Another alternate volunteer's note - 27 September 2015 is not here yet. This is 04 May 2015.  Perhaps you meant 27 September 2014?  If so, that was over 7 months ago. I'm confused regarding expectations of an ongoing RfC that is 7 months old.  30 days should be the limit unless it was extended for valid reason. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme &#9775;  Consult  00:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Volunteer apology - I meant 27 April 2015. I made a silly mistake.  But the RFC does appear to be running. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:22, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Not silly at all. Thank you for clarifying. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme &#9775;  Consult  15:36, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

It is my considered opinion that the RfC cannot possibly resolve this content dispute because it is lacking a neutrally-worded and specific question and is lacking sections where users can post support/oppose !votes. It is also my considered opinion that this can be resolved by a moderated discussion here at WP:DRN. That being said, if there exists a good-faith disagreement with either of those two opinions, I will be glad to either put this case on hold until the RfC expires or to withdraw and let another DRN volunteer take the case. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:46, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

The specific question is how to resolve the conflict between my attempt to have the article reflect the data presented in prevalence of female genital mutilation by country and the unwillingness of certain editors to accept this. The sources cited in that article meet the criteria for WP:RS; there's no policy basis for "we can't change the sources". Relying on a single source and excluding all others even if they pass WP:RS flagrantly violates policy. Just because FA status was achieved doesn't mean the review process involved an exhaustive search (or any at all AFAIK) for information that needs to be included in order for the article to be accurate. As explained here, if the government of a country doesn't let the UN include it in the report then it isn't included. The argument that other sources have to be discounted because the UN omitted the countries involved is clearly invalid and may indicate WP:COI. PolenCelestial (talk) 02:58, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

AadaamS has indicated that he won't be participating, so I will open this up for discussion in a few hours. First I want to take a final look at all the comments on the article talk page and all of the involved parties user talk pages and then I will draw up a plan of attack for resolving this content dispute. Thanks for your patience. --Guy Macon (talk)

Sorry for the delay. I had to resolve a couple of issues (see Administrators' noticeboard/Archive271 and Help desk). I am now opening this up for discussion.

The first thing I would like to discuss is the differences between the FA version and the current version as well as the differences between Female genital mutilation and Prevalence of female genital mutilation by country.

Would anyone care to argue for or against the present version being superior to the FA version? Does anyone think that the section starting with "A country's national prevalence may reflect a high sub-national prevalence among certain ethnicities" should be restored to Female genital mutilation or added to Prevalence of female genital mutilation by country?

Should we move some of the details from Female genital mutilation to Prevalence of female genital mutilation by country?

After we discuss the above, I plan on discussing this edit and this revert in detail. Please don't jump the gun and start discussing the edit/revert now -- I want to get the first discussion out of the way first.

As always, talk about article content, not editor conduct. do not talk about other editors except to note that they added or removed specific content. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 05:14, 8 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I am closing this as failed because several parties have chosen to not participate or withdraw (which they are free to do -- participation is voluntary). See Wikipedia talk:Dispute resolution noticeboard. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:43, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Template talk:People's Party (Spain)/meta/color
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

This is a reopen of a previous DRN request, that was closed because the issue had not been discussed on the corresponding talk page. Now it has, yet to no avail: user keeps making edits even when discussion is not over, and yet still keeps almost entirely ignoring what I'm saying and tries to push forward his views nonetheless, engaging in an edit warring behaviour. He is an user who has been involved in edit warrings in the past and, just as of recently, seems to be acting in the same way with other users, so I'm losing hope that I'll be able to make him hear me some day without any help. I'm considering to bring this to the AN, but don't want to have to go to those extremes.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

There have been attempts of discussions in several Template talk pages, in our respective talk pages, several requests in edit summaries to make the user to actually go to talk and enter a discussion with me (as far as it goes, he only presents me "his evidence" and push his edit forward without discussing nor answering my own statements). As far as it goes, he just ignores what I'm saying, and once he does get his edit pushed forward, he not even cares to discuss anymore.

How do you think we can help?

To discourage Sfs90 from edit warring, as well as to convince him to actually enter into discussion before trying to press forward his changes (which are clearly disputed). And that discussion means that, for a disputed edit to be brought forward, it has to be discussed and consensus reached. I also think we would need some kind of moderator or something in the debate, because it's only two of us.

Summary of dispute by Sfs90
According to the talk of the template, I presented some sources about the color used by the party, in their logo and their campaign material. said that the manual I quoted was only for the european elections (maybe, or maybe not, we don't know if the colors said in the manual were used only in that election). But after reading the complete issue, it looks more clearly that the party doesn't have any kind of "official statement" about the color (instead of other parties like UPyD and Citizens). The issue in that two parties was solved, but in People's Party case I give the benefit of the doubt, because there's no clarity about a color that should be used, and if Impru20 thinks that an intermediate shade or color could be more suitable to generate some type of consensus, I'll agree with that. For me, there's no more discussion about that and I close my opinion in the case. Regards. --Sfs90 (talk) 22:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Template talk:People's Party (Spain)/meta/color discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hello, I am Rider ranger47, a DRN volunteer. Please remember we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors. Once all users have posted their statements, we will begun discussion.  Rider ranger47  Talk 11:30, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

What manual where you following when changing the color?  Rider ranger47  Talk 22:29, 10 May 2015 (UTC)


 * This manual. --Sfs90 (talk) 14:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Giuliano Mignini
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Editor Vituzzu placed a POV tag in the article as a "drive-by". Two other editors disagreed with the tag's validity and removed it. The result is a slow edit war. As explained on the talk page, the existence of a POV tag graphically casts doubt on the objectivity of an article and I think it should not be there without good reason. In my view, no good reason has yet been given.

Postscript:

I’ll add that the alleged POV seems to result from the article describing properly sourced examples of the subject’s career, which alarmed Italians and eventually much of the English-speaking world when the subject brought abortive criminal charges against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito (among other things, it was Mignini who concocted the scenario of Meredith Kercher being murdered in a satanic sex ritual).

The article doesn’t seem to be biased in any way. Rather, it is about a controversial Italian prosecutor.

I’ll also point out that Vituzzu can, of course, edit anything in the article he thinks is incorrect, or correct any imbalance by adding more positive material, but instead simply brands it with a POV tag and alleges that those who think the tag is inappropriate are biased.

JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 13:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Informed opinion on the use and misuse of POV tags.

Summary of dispute by 109.145.67.105
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Vituzzu
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Actually I don't see any real dispute, I raised some problems and I'm waiting for 3rd-party opinions. There are no deadlines in removing a pov tag nor a preventive consensus is needed. --Vituzzu (talk) 12:17, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Meanwhile you removed the tag for the n-th time. Then why did you open a DR? --Vituzzu (talk) 13:32, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I removed the tag twice. Someone else removed it once. All three times were in accordance with Wikipedia policy. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:POV#When_to_remove. You have third-party opinions on the talk page and if you honestly can't see a dispute then perhaps others here will help you. That's my hope. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 14:12, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Not really, you were already told there are no deadlines in removal. Honestly I think you're the alleged second user but nonetheless this you didn't respect the relevant policies at all. People writing a certain content are supposed to oppose tags on their content, that's why third opinions are needed. --Vituzzu (talk) 14:19, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Regarding "Honestly I think you're the alleged second user", I have a distinct advantage over you, Vituzzu, because I know that I'm not and, therefore, I know that you're dangerously prejudiced. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 14:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I have a certain experience in making SPIs and you reached my 75% of probability threshold. I'm always ready to be proven wrong. --Vituzzu (talk) 14:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Giuliano Mignini discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Coordinator's Note: Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm the current Coordinator here. : I can't quite tell from what you've said, above, whether or not you wish to participate here. It's your call: No one is ever required to participate in moderated content dispute resolution — basically DRN and formal Mediation — if they do not care to do so. You say that you're waiting for third opinions, but I'm not sure how or in what sense you mean that. Use of dispute resolution processes, especially Third Opinion though DRN does some of that as well, can help with that. Parallel processes cannot be pending at multiple dispute resolution venues, but if you wish to say that you do not want to participate here but want instead to file a request at Third Opinion, this request will be closed and you will be free to do so. Another method of bringing in additional opinions is, of course, to file a Request for Comments. Finally, you can also do none of that and just wait for other opinions to come in at the article talk page (though if your opponent then files for a Third Opinion, or files a Request for Comments, there's not much that you can do about it since your participation is not essential to those processes going forward). Please clarify whether or not you wish to participate here. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 14:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * actually I had already stopped reverting before being involved into this "formal" DRN, meanwhile my counterpart went on removing the tag I added and writing me lots of nice things. DRN's main pillar is the formal equivalence of all involved parties and honestly I'm tired of this ongoing vilification of one of them. Also I've asked a check about this incident from fellow checkusers because I feel to be way fooled. --Vituzzu (talk) 14:19, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Please plainly clarify whether or not you wish to participate here. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 14:22, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm here and I stopped editing the page, even if my counterpart didn't, so it's definitely a yes, since it seems the only way to get 3rd-party opinions. Just to clarify if *real* 3rd party users will say the page is neutral I'll be pretty fine. Maybe I perceive it as being not neutral since I strongly believe it's not notable at all. I say so much times "3rd party" because I cannot consider two (though I think "one", actually) users "owning" the page as actual "3O". Generally people adding a disputed content are not the rightest people to judge tags about it. --Vituzzu (talk) 14:34, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Repeating what I said above and regarding "Honestly I think you're the alleged second user", I have a distinct advantage over you, Vituzzu, because I know that I'm not and, therefore, I know that you're dangerously prejudiced. You're out of order and that answers your other question: why did I take this matter to Dispute Resolution? JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 14:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * As I just told you in the upper section I have a certain experience in making SPIs, I saw several clues but I can, of course, be wrong. This, anyway, doesn't weaken my assertion you're not a 3O because you're involved in writing this article. Try numbering parties you're the 1O, I'm the 2O who is waiting for some redeeming 3Os ;) --Vituzzu (talk) 15:02, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I see you have already started without a volunteer. Have you resolved this issue or does conversation need to continue? Please remember that we comment on content here, not users.  Rider ranger47  Talk 15:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * any opinion about content is very welcome for me. As I already tried to explain in talkpage I think the paragraph "role of prosecutor in Italy" is a bit off-topic and it tends to depict Italian prosecutors as loose cannons. Also one of the main sources (note 8 and 9) is pretty outdated, dating back to 1994. The overall page gives me the idea of an underlying "hey! Look who did accuse Knox et al!"-bias. --Vituzzu (talk) 15:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I thought TransporterMan had volunteered. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is resolved if Vituzzu will state that a POV tag is unwarranted. Thank you, JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 15:48, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * (editconflicted twice)Basically you say the only solution is your solution, that's so collaborative. --Vituzzu (talk) 15:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Have you agreed to this?  Rider ranger47  Talk 15:54, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope, if I thought the POV tag were unwarranted I wouldn't had even added it. --Vituzzu (talk) 15:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Why doesn't Vituzzu do the blinding obvious and edit the article so as to remove what he thinks is bias (within the terms of Wikipedia procedure and protocol). As I've said here and on the article's talk page, just shoving in a POV tag makes it graphically clear to most readers that the factual content of the article is doubtful and devalued because it's biased but without stating why. I think that's misuse of the POV tag. That's why I'm here. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 16:07, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Please only comment on content, not users. It violates the DRN rules. According to the templates documentation, it says it can be removed if the issue is not clear. So what is the issue?  Rider ranger47  Talk 16:16, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That's a good point, Rider ranger47. It's the point I wanted resolved. My apologies go to you and Robert McClenon in regard to violation of DRN rules. If I need to be clearer then I'll add that a section entitled "Role of prosecutors in Italy" is not irrelevant in an article about an Italian prosecutor and that historical facts dating back to 1994 are not outdated. Removal of facts from 1994 would be revisionism, distinctly biased towards the subject of the article. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 16:49, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Why this attack? I said a 1994 source about judicial system is *outdated*: since 1994 Italy had 12 different governments and many recommendations from EU have been included within all the four codes. --Vituzzu (talk) 18:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Any notion that this is an attack is subjective. As stated above, you placed a drive-by POV tag and reinstated it despite two editors' subsequent and disapproving actions, both justified on the article's talk page. I know that I'm not allowed to comment on your POV (which is a bit tricky because that's what this argument is all about) but, in answer to your question and, more importantly, for the sake of Wikipedia, please consider the evidence against your action and, please, stop being the victim here. The victims are those who've suffered injustice and, more significantly in regard to this particular Wikipedia article, those who administered said injustice. When you accept that the information in the article as it stands is factually correct and when you cease complaining on the basis of your 75% sockpuppet detection criteria then we can cease arguing. With kind regards, JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 18:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yet some ad hominem arguments. Can you please plainly list those "evidences"? Also I'd like to know which "pov" do you ascribe to me.
 * I edited as a both user and steward on lots of wikis but it's the second time I see such an overreaction to a simple pov tag. --Vituzzu (talk) 19:55, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * No comment, other than to say that you exhaust reason and that's why you're here. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 20:07, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * With respect to Rider ranger47 and Robert McClenon, I apologise again, but at least everyone can see what we're trying to deal with. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 20:18, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * (edit conflicted)I expressed some reasoning (maybe wrong or maybe right), I tried ignoring your violations of the DRN process, your allusive mention of my alleged pov, etc etc. You simply went on removing the tag without even try to discuss, what should I do now? --Vituzzu (talk) 20:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Nothing, it's clear that you shouldn't have added the tag in the first place. 109.145.67.105 (talk) 20:25, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Why? --Vituzzu (talk) 20:34, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Because you gave no objective reasons for doing so, nor did you attempt to edit the article to rectify it. Haven't you just been told that above and earlier on the talk page of the article? This discussion is evidently going nowhere. I'm out. 109.145.67.105 (talk) 20:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I did, or better I tried doing it. To there's a POV issue with that page, you, being one of the authors, disagree now we should wait 3Os without insisting on an alleged "self-evident absolute truth". Both of us believe to be right, divergence is common in a collaborative project. Problems arises when one of the involved parts try cheating or nullifying the other one. --Vituzzu (talk) 21:02, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, this has gotten way out of hand and off topic. Can all of you agree to resolve this civilly or not?  Rider ranger47  Talk 21:05, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

There is nothing to resolve. The tag is gone. The onus was always on the person placing the tag to provide coherent reasons for doing so. This did not happen. End of story. 109.145.67.105 (talk) 21:08, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually you removed it against policy, I didn't re-add it because of this DRN (it's a lack of respect for people writing here to going on removing or re-adding the tag). But if you'll quit the DRN I'll re-add it because to me the problem still exists. --Vituzzu (talk) 21:16, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I won't quit. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 21:48, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

If you re-add the tag, you will be in violation of wikipedia policy adding a tag without providing coherent reasons for doing so. You're also expressing an intention to edit war. 109.145.67.105 (talk) 21:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

(Edit conflicted) I am going to ask you to step back from this discussion for repeatedly commenting on users, not content. Could you please explain why you think the article should have a POV tag?  Rider ranger47  Talk 21:23, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That's fair comment. May I continue contributing here if I stick to criticising content? JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 21:36, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * No. I have already given you a warning. As the volunteer mediator I have formally asked you to step back from this discussion.  Rider ranger47  Talk 21:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * How was I to know that you're the "volunteer mediator"? I'd have given you even more respect had someone told me so. Honestly! JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 22:15, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * (editconflicted twice)As I said before, the paragraph about prosecutors in Italy depicts them as loose cannons, using outdated sources (some of the issues raised in one of them were mitigated by later reforms) without mentioning, for instance, how their roles are separated "in time" (it's a softer separation than USA one but it exists). knows Italian judicial system better than be and he might help resolving the dispute.
 * The overall tone of the page gives me the impression the subject is depicted as a visionary.
 * Just to clarify, I'm really not interested in "spectacularized" murder trials: I escape from those TV-shows obsessively doing reports of ongoing processes or investigations, so I am not a supporter of neither the "guilty" nor "innocence" parties. --Vituzzu (talk) 21:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

This is your subjective opinion. The section of the article in question is neutral in tone and well referenced.109.145.67.105 (talk) 21:46, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * And this is your opinion as one of the author. You should had waited for 3O before removing the tag then. --Vituzzu (talk) 21:59, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand your jargon. The tag was removed because there was no justification for it being there. I don't accept your subjective view that the article depicts Italian prosecutors as 'loose cannons'.109.145.67.105 (talk) 22:01, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That's pretty legit, you're one of the main authors of the text I'm criticizing, so it's normal you believe it's right. Everyone who is driven by good faith writes what he believes it's right. --Vituzzu (talk) 22:15, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not criticising anyone in particular but I do think that someone here is fighting phantoms in the dark. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 22:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll let answer to this. --Vituzzu (talk) 22:16, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

@Vituzzu are you claiming I am a main author of the Mignini article? Where did you get that idea? Is this the legendary Italian detective work in action?109.145.67.105 (talk) 22:19, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * So you clarified your pov about the subject. --Vituzzu (talk) 22:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Did you take my comment as sarcasm? Why would you do that?109.145.67.105 (talk) 23:23, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Yay, go go go! JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 22:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I have made a few small edits to the Mignini article years after most of it was written, that's been it. I don't know who Vituzzu imagines me to be in his world.109.145.67.105 (talk) 22:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Just among the last 50 edits I see this editwar for instance, but also those edits. --Vituzzu (talk) 22:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Not by any stretch a main author then. And the editwar you refer to is not my IP.109.145.67.105 (talk) 23:13, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a dangerous world and, I'm quite sure, ordinary Wikipedia readers don't want to be there. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 22:36, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I've been dealing with trolls for years, so it took a bit more dedication to make me go nuts. --Vituzzu (talk) 22:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Do you retract your bogus claim that I (a British person by the way) am a main author of the article?109.145.67.105 (talk) 22:45, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Do you retract your suggestion that I am a troll? It's important for your credibility. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 23:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Can we have another mediator please.109.145.67.105 (talk) 23:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I promise never to comment again on the above terminated discussion. Can we have another mediator, please? JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 23:45, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflicted) The DRN co-coordinator has been notified about this discussion and will respond soon.  Rider ranger47  Talk 23:47, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Go on, Vituzzu, take courage, do it now, before you make an even bigger arse of yourself. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 00:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Volunteer comment - A registered editor and an unregistered editor have requested another mediator. You got one, for a few minutes, while I close this thread as failed because the participants wouldn't stop complaining about each other.  Robert McClenon (talk) 01:31, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Greco-Italian War
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I wanted to add a reliable and verifiable comment that while the Greek Army withstood the Italian Primavera Offensive in 1941, and though victorious, Stockings and Hancock (2003) claimed that the Greek Army had suffered over 5000 casualties and was running very low on manpower and supplies of military resources like artillery shells.

Here below is what I wanted to edit into the article:

However, as Stockings and Hancock maintain, the Telepene Offensive exposed the weaknesses of the Greek Army. Not only did it suffer over 5000 casualties during the Italian offensive, but more importantly, it revealed a "chronic shortage of arms and equipment." In some cases the Greeks had merely one month's supply left of artillery shells and other weaponry "which could not be replaced locally and which exceeded British capacity to import." "The Greeks," in the words of Stockings and Hancock, "were fast approaching the end of their logistic tether."

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greco-Italian_War&diff=prev&oldid=661908944

However, it was rejected outright by Dr K who simply deleted it without explaining adequately why. I tried a number of times to seek a consensus.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Yes, several times but each time I was rebuffed by Dr K's very personal and highly charged Greek patriotism.

How do you think we can help?

BY making Dr K see that only by consensus and temperance and understanding that Wikipedia articles should not be bi-partisan simply because he favors the Greek side over the Italian side, but that it should contain differing views from reliable sources, even minority views. Dr K appears to be afraid that the comment by Stockings and Hancock will, in his words, tarnish the greatness of the Greek Army and its victory over the Italians. This is simply taking sides and is a very narrow approach.

Summary of dispute by Dr K
I have taken this tendentious longterm NPA violator to ANI for threatening to mention me and another editor on an external website he is associated with. I will not be taking part in these proceedings under threats and personal attacks. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.5ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις 22:35, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Alexikoua
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Athenean
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Greco-Italian War discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Talk:Giuliano Mignini
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

A Wikipedia administrator placed a drive-by POV tag in an article. I contested the validity of the POV tag, pointing out that it cast doubt on the factual validity of the article. Another contributor removed the POV tag. Said Wikipedia administrator reinstated it, and so on, leading to an edit war. I brought the problems here wanting to know under what circumstances a POV tag may be deemed relevant and for how long it may reasonably remain in the article. The issue was not resolved and I still seek informed answers, please.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on the article's talk page, previous attempt to resolve the issue here, and question on the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard

How do you think we can help?

Informed opinion regarding the use and abuse of the POV tag

Summary of dispute by Vituzzu
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by many other Wikipedia administrators
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by et al
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Giuliano Mignini discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Talk:Safety behaviors
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The safety behaviors article was flagged as having undue weight on psychopathology because it does not include any information about safety behaviors used in the workforce or other potentially dangerous situations. I (GoldenCirclet) claim that this article is not related to safety behaviors in the workforce. Safety behaviors used in anxiety disorders increase anxiety when they are meant to decrease anxiety, and treatments such as exposure and response prevention therapy are used to reduce these safety behaviors. Safety behaviors used in the workforce promote physical safety and should be enforced. A possible solution is to rename the article as "safety behaviors (anxiety)" to differentiate the article from other safety behavior articles when they are formed, including those used in the workplace.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have provided quotes from cited articles that show that safety behaviors used in anxiety disorders are designed to reduce anxiety but instead lead to an increase in anxiety.

How do you think we can help?

I would like to request an outside opinion on this dispute to determine how best to resolve it. Andrew D. has not yet responded to my last response, and I do not know if changing the article title is the best mode of action at this point.

Summary of dispute by Andrew D.
I have been busy with other things but have returned to update the matter. To help achieve compromise and consensus, I have accepted the title change proposed by GoldenCirclet and have created a disambiguation page to provide links to other contexts which readers might be wanting. Andrew D. (talk) 11:59, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Prof Haeffel
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. It appears the primary reason this article was flagged was because there was debate about whether or not "safety behaviors" represent a psychological construct or more general definition that includes being safe in work, driving, job, etc. I argued that the safety behaviors discussed in this article focus on a particular class of behaviors that are used to reduce anxiety and fear in those with anxiety related disorders; these behaviors are clearly related to psychology, and thus, the emphasis on psychology is appropriate. The behaviors are very different than general safety rules and regulations, which I believe to be an entirely different topic. I vote the article stay as is and the dispute be resolved. That said, a title change could be considered to make clear the topic is in relation to anxiety (e.g., Safety Behaviors in Anxiety). Prof Haeffel (talk) 03:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Safety behaviors discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Hello, I am rider ranger47 a volunteer mediator. I have looked through the comments and it looks like this issue has been resolved. Is this correct?  Rider ranger47  Talk 12:09, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment by another volunteer - It appears that this is primarily an article naming issue, and that the article in question is about Safety behaviors (anxiety), which is a psychological syndrome associated with anxiety disorders. (These behaviors, while meant to mitigate the effect of anxiety, in focusing on the anxiety, can complicate the anxiety.)  It also appears that one of the parties made Safety behaviors temporarily into a redirect to Safety behaviors (anxiety) in order to create a disambiguation page, and then create a separate article about safety behavior in workplaces, transportation, etc.  If the parties to this thread agree that that was appropriate, then I agree with the moderator that this can be closed as resolved.  Is that correct, or does there need to be discussion about naming, or about anything else?  Robert McClenon (talk) 15:02, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that mostly everything is correct, although I am uncertain about the "undue weight" tag being left in the article since the article was meant to specifically talk about safety behaviors in anxiety. Should that be another discussion? GoldenCirclet (talk) 02:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * It can continue under this one.  Rider ranger47  Talk 02:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

24 hour notice: This thread will be closed if it is not commented on in 24 hours.  Rider ranger47  Talk 02:26, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * According to the article's talk page, the tag was left because Andrew D. states that, "I still feel that the treatment of the matter in the psychological context is quite narrow and doesn't fully recognize that people are often anxious for the good reason that their safety or well-being is at risk." Since I have not researched how safety behaviors are used when the person does experience a dangerous situation, this article may not cover everything there is about safety behaviors used to reduce anxiety. Therefore, I will leave the tag until I or another editor can look into this problem, but I will replace the Wikiproject NIOSH template with the general Wikiproject Psychology template to better reflect the content of this article. GoldenCirclet (talk) 00:11, 16 May 2015 (UTC)


 * So is the issue resolved?  Rider ranger47  Talk 00:21, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Shiply
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Blanking of sections by Willreyner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shiply&type=revision&diff=603121896&oldid=602264014 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shiply&oldid=prev&diff=662005843

Please note non usage of talk page.

My comments from the last dispute on this page with COI edits from company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shiply_(2nd_nomination)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Revert some section blanking + leaving comments asking for usage of talk page[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shiply&oldid=659917904

How do you think we can help?

Block user Willreyner from editing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shiply.

Summary of dispute by Willreyner
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Shiply discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Baltimore
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I afraid to post without credible information getting deleted by other poster I replied back in the NPOV edits section I am Brlaw8 and I gave a detailed statement on how I feel there. It is as follows below.

Hello I am user Brlaw8 I have been using/contributing to Wikipedia for years and today I wanted to report another user Onel5969 for negativism on his or her talk page and as a frequent poster on the Baltimore page I see how he/she dispute Freddie Gray as being significant in the 21st century and list a few insignificant other things of the time just to add a incomplete 21st century historic subsection. Here's a response from Wikipedia on their talk page. "The article is about the city so on the contrary, we actually need to prevent it from becoming dominated by the Freddie Gray." As this poster is someone from Arizona with no connections to the city or state their reason for posting in Baltimore could be to hurt the image of city to the millions that get their first look of Baltimore through Wikipedia not to inform. The reason this post was brought to my attention as a frequent poster in the Baltimore page is when I would edit obsolete information and update it user Onel5969 sent this Hi. Editor Brlaw8 continues to attempt to add promotional material from cites linked directly to the city, which are highly NPOV. In doing so, the editor has violated the WP:3RR rule. Not every citation is valid, if it is from a non-neutral source, like the city's own website, or a website affiliated with the promotion of the city, than that is not a valid citation. The copy is very promotional, and is simply written to favor the city. Onel5969 (talk) 02:16, 17 May 2015 (UTC). By all means I feel the very same way that their posts are very un-promotional of the city. My sources are valid and up to date and even the sources that were not from the city website like the US Berea of labor statistics were constantly deleted and I believe this user is abusing their power. I believe that

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

None other than responding back on the talk page and now this. I really would just like to make and be free to make the necessary changes that need to take place.

How do you think we can help?

Hopefully we can come to a mutual agreement if we have a superior so to speak hear us both out.

Summary of dispute by Onel5969
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Hi. On 13 May 2015, made a number of edits to the Baltimore article, including deleting cited material, deleting material for which a consensus had been reached through edits regarding the recent disturbances (as well as the rest of the information in the 21st century subsection of History), and inputting either uncited material, or promotional material from sites connected with the city. Overall, the effect was to edit out data which put the city in a negative light, and include data from non-independent sources which put the city in a good light. Included among the NPOV edits were other edits which were either innocuous, or which would simply be a matter of opinion, so my intention was to leave those. However, upon attempting to go through the edits one by one it quickly became apparent that they were so intertwined I had to revert all of their edits.

On 14 May, Brlaw8 made 2 edits. One was uncited, and the other used a non-independent source, but in this instance, since it was simply stating a statistic, there was no need to revert. Later on the 14th, Brlaw8 attempted to reinsert some of the NPOV material regarding the economy, which you can see HERE. I reverted, stating NPOV in the edit summary.

On 16 May, Brlaw8 again attempted to reinsert virtually the same material. Another editor,, removed most of the material (although he did leave one section which I still found promotional), and that edit can be seen HERE. Later on 16 May, Brlaw8 added a picture to the article. At that point I noticed that the promotional material from the city website was still on the page and reverted it (just the NPOV material, not the picture), again stating the reason in the edit summary. Shortly after this, early on 17 May, Brlaw8 re-inserted all of the NPOV material, which was his 3rd revert in 24 hours. I reverted, citing the 3RR violation, and since it was clear he was not understanding the NPOV issue, took it to the talk page. Brlaw8 responded with a rambling, almost incoherent post, which did not honestly address the NPOV issue, nor his violation of the 3RR rule. He insisted that his references were "not from the city", and indeed, his update on the unemployment was from a neutral source. However, the rest of the references he cited were: "http://www.godowntownbaltimore.com", "http://baltimore.citybizlist.com", "http://baltimore.org", and "http://baltimoredevelopment.com", all of which are Baltimore promotional sites. In addition, he also deleted the Walsh/Fox citation. On the whole, his response made no credible argument for his actions, and in fact, when you wade into it, actually showed he was attempting to edit the article to show Baltimore in a more favorable light. Subsequent to his violation of the 3RR rule, he once again re-inserted the NPOV material.

This editor has recently begun editing on the Baltimore page, and some of his edits have an NPOV issue, such as THIS ONE - which also as a COPYVIO issue with the underlying source, as well as including uncited facts. After his violation of the 3RR rule, and his further violation, I decided to sit back and see what other editors think of his edits. In his talk page response he failed to validate his edits, and he never discussed the violation of the 3RR rule. (sorry about the length, I was trying to be specific - not sure how to check how many characters, only # of words). Onel5969 (talk) 20:18, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Baltimore discussion
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First statement by volunteer moderator
I am accepting this case as the volunteer moderator although I am not entirely sure what the issue is. I would like the participants to state what the issue is, but it appears that there may be a neutral point of view issue. Please be civil and concise. Comment on content, not on contributors. If the discussion gets off track with comments on contributors, or becomes uncivil, I may have to fail the discussion. Please explain what the issue is and how you want the article improved.

Robert McClenon (talk) 14:21, 17 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Please be specific in identifying changes that you want made to the article, or in changes to the article with which you disagree. Comment on content (improvement of the article), not on contributors.  Robert McClenon (talk) 20:29, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

First statement by Onel5969
Hi. Not sure why this was brought here. Simply a case of NPOV, and a lack of understanding regarding the 3RR rule. Cheers. Onel5969 (talk) 20:21, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Le Sage%27s_theory_of_gravitation#External_links_trim
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Primarily the depute is over a reasonable definition of a "personal web page" and what qualifies as a "non-mainstream" source. An effort to STOP one link from being added has resulted in 6 other links being removed\censored

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

just useless TALK

How do you think we can help?

provide a rational description of a "personal page" and acknowledge that this site ( http://inmendham.com/ds/index.html ) does not reasonably fit the category "personal site\page"

Summary of dispute by DVdm
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. As can be seen at User talk:DVdm and Talk:Le Sage's theory of gravitation user DoNotGod seems not to accept (or understand) that his web page qualifies as a personal web page, as mentioned at wp:ELNO item 11. - DVdm (talk) 19:12, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Insidiae
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Snowwhiteunger
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Summary of dispute by JohnBlackburne
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. As well as the article talk page and the article history there's User talk:DVdm where the discussion started. Nothing really to add to those discussions.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 18:58, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Le Sage%27s_theory_of_gravitation#External_links_trim discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
 * Volunteer note - I am neither accepting nor declining this dispute at this time, awaiting statements from the other editors. I will note that a higher standard of civility is expected at this noticeboard (and in Wikipedia in general) than has been shown in discussion on the article talk page.  Be civil and comment on content, not contributors, regardless of whether the discussion is here or on the talk page.  Robert McClenon (talk) 19:00, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk:High fructose corn syrup
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Content I have added to the High fructose corn syrup that was well backed with references, was removed by Sciencewatcher with edit summaries like 'fructose!=HFCS'. This despite many of the studies conducted to gain insight into HFCS, and cited in much of scientific debate on HFCS, are about the fructose. Those scientists study fructose intensively precisely because HFCS contains so much of it. It is pretty much the main reason currently for investigating HFCS, and vice versa (half the dry residue is of HFCS is fructose, the rest glucose) Also, my contribution by adding a subsection on dicarbonyls and other reactive compounds in HFCS was also deleted by SW; SW later said he found reviews claiming other foods like bread contained 'similar' dicarbonyl levels. As HFCS was shown to have up to 1.1 gram/liter dicarbonyls, I found this unlikely and said so, as well as pointing out absorption from non-liquid foods is slower and doesn't overwhelm antioxidant defences. He did not produce any reviews to back up his claim, but instead chided me for not finding those same reviews myself.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Compromised somewhat in added content in current edit

How do you think we can help?

Help to find a compromise wording that will satisfy everyone, and stop the constant attacks on the new content.

Summary of dispute by Sciencewatcher
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

High fructose corn syrup discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
 * Volunteer note - I am neither accepting nor declining this case at this time. The requesting party is a dynamic IP address; at least three different IP addresses in the 85.*.*.* block have edited the article page and the article talk page.  Communication with dynamic IP editors is difficult.  I will accept the case for mediation if the human behind the IP addresses establishes a registered account.  (I am currently working another case.)  Registered (including pseudonymous) editors have several advantages over unregistered editors with IP addresses.  Robert McClenon (talk) 15:53, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

regarding registration of an account, I (85.211.96.117) do have this account... I simply stopped using it, because I do not want to be harassed by the square red 'new messages' notification that could be someone reverting my edits from possibly many months back... I want to enjoy Wikipedia in peace, without looking over my shoulder. So that's why I didn't use it... but I'll use it right here, if you think it's better

(+also added my name to participants, after forgetting the first time) 85.211.100.135 (talk) 15:44, 17 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Volunteer note - A registered editor can turn off the 'new messages' via the Notifications tab from the Preferences at the top of the screen. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:35, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Robert, thank you for the advice, I will use this account on this thread. Also: I had poosted a DRN notice on Sciencewatcher's account as soon as I opened this dispute resolution request, but he has so far failed to respond. 85.211.100.135, aka Nitrobutane (talk) 07:34, 20 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I didn't really feel the need to respond...there doesn't really seem to be any dispute on the talk page as far as I can tell, and it wasn't even me who reverted your edits the last few times. I'd recommend participating in the discussion on the article talk page. As far as I can see, the issue is that you aren't familiar with wikipedia policies such as WP:MEDRS and WP:SYNTH. This has been discussed at the talk page, but you appear to ignore the discussion and just re-add your edits again without addressing the problems. --sciencewatcher (talk) 14:52, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Manually filed conduct case
I am trying to make two small edits, here, to the article NPS. The first one fixes a layout error that affects IE (at least), whereby an unsightly and unintended blank space appears at the top of the article. The second adds a new meaning of NPS, "new psychoactive substance". It is easy to verify that this meaning is in widespread use. Both edits are clearly beneficial, in a small way, but another editor, Bkonrad, seems to have some kind of fixation with undoing them. He or she repeatedly reverts them, ignoring my requests to stop. Please will someone take a look at this and take the necessary enforcement action. Thank you. 86.152.163.183 (talk) 12:38, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Ohnoitsjamie#User:LuisaDG Link_removal
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Dear Sir or Madam, My intention is to add a web link to certain Wikipedia fungus pages redirecting readers to an external webpage describing clinical cases of fungal infections. The website in question is www.fungiquest.net, where the user can look through a database to find clinically valuable information. Unfortunately I added the web link redirecting Wikipedia reader to the main page, whereas it should have been adapted so the reader will immediately reach the webpage showing only the cases of a certain subgroup of the respective fungus. Ohnoitsjamie removed the links. I discussed this topic with Ohnoitsjamie and proposed to change them to deep-linking directly to the respective fungus cases. He insisted it is link canvassing and that I try to spam these links thus, without valuable information. FungiQuest is a tool for clinicians directly linked to FungiScope, an international study on rare invasive fungal infection internationally recognized and appreciated in expert audience. This work is endorsed by all leading scientific societies in the field of medical mycology including ISHAM (International society of human and animal mycology), ESCMID (European society of clinical microbiology and infectious disease) and ECMM (European conference on medical mycology). Thus, to me it is incomprehensible that such valuable information for clinical doctors to improve patient care might be considered spam. There are other external links accepted like Pubmed subpages (biggest journal database). Trough FungiQuest you are able to access the biggest Database of invasive fungal infections cases, not available through Pubmed. This is no advertisement and just should offer more information to readers. For most clinicians Wikipedia is the first source of information when facing such rare disease in their patient. I would herewith like to demonstrate the need and importance of including the link to Wikipedia. Thank you for your consideration.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried to explain Ohnoitsjamie my intentions on his talk page and how to improve the access to this information but it did not work.

How do you think we can help?

I hope you may understand that this is valuable information that should be offered to readers in Wikipedia.

Summary of dispute by Ohnoitsjamie
I explained multiple times to the user that we do not allow single purpose accounts with a conflict of interest to canvass links, regardless of the quality of the links. Besides, links of high-quality/high relevance are inevitably added by numerous other editors that don't have single purpose agendas. The editor's statement above "It didn't work" could be translated to WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. OhNo itsJamie Talk 14:05, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Ohnoitsjamie#User:LuisaDG Link_removal discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.