Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 155

Talk:Indian Administrative_Service
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

So, user Japanmomo has been reverting edits on the page Indian Administrative Service for a month and a half, he uses words like 'stooge', 'illiterate', 'half-educated', 'vandalism' frequently. But that's not the issue, even after providing an adequate amount of references, he insists on imposing his opinion. So, as per Wikipedia guidelines, we decided to discuss the issue on the talk page. Even after days of attacks, we haven't been able to reach a consensus. Plus, he seems to have a disdain for the IAS, and likeness for CSS. A third party has to come into picture for peace. A mediator has to intervene.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

No.

How do you think we can help?

One of the administrators would a have to mediate. An arbirator is extremely necessary.

Summary of dispute by Japanmomo
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Talk:Indian Administrative_Service discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
 * Volunteer note - There has been discussion on the article talk page. The discussion does not appear to have been productive.  The filing party has not notified the other editor of this filing.  It isn't entirely clear whether the filing party is asking for moderated discussion.  The noticeboard doesn't provide an arbitrator or an administrator, but will try to facilitate discussion if the editors want to continue discussion.  The filing party is asked to please consider what they want.  Robert McClenon (talk) 02:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Taichung#No mention_of_population_in_lead
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Recently released government statistics in Taiwan showed that the city of Taichung's population (2,778,182 people) has surpassed that of Kaohsiung's (2,777,873 people). This change would now rank them as the 2nd and 3rd most populous cities in Taiwan, respectively, and has been covered extensively in Chinese and English language media.

A user updated the article lead to reflect that Taichung's population rank was now 2nd (instead of 3rd). However, User Szqecs was concerned that mentioning this information in the article would be supporting a fringe theory and has requested that proper weight be given to the assertion that Taichung's rank is still 3rd instead of 2nd, in order to provide a balanced and neutral point of view. There's also substantial disagreement as to whether the population rank is notable enough to mention in the lead.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

There has been a lengthy (and ongoing) discussion on the article's talk page. A third opinion was also requested (through WP:3O).

User Szqecs has maintained that any mention of Taichung's population rank requires a balanced and neutral point of view, and contends that Kaohsiung still being ranked 2nd is a significant viewpoint and must be reflected. I have attempted to clarify Wikipedia policies and requested relevant sources, although no such sources have yet been provided.

How do you think we can help?

There's some disagreement about what constitutes a neutral and balanced point of view on this subject, whether mentioning Taichung's population rank (in the lead) would indeed be undue weight and whether it's even notable enough to mention, as well as what a relevant source on this subject would be.

Perhaps you could help clarify some of these policies so that we can more readily reach a consensus on this topic. Thank you!

Summary of dispute by Szqecs
There are plenty of sources that state Kaohsiung is the second-largest city, which were cited but dismissed as being "unrelated" by Multivariable. With contradicting information for such an insignificant difference of 0.01%, Multivariable still insists that this be presented in the lead section. It has been suggested that a detailed description from the source be presented. However this is also rejected by Multivariable, who insists it be written in a simple, misleading manner.

Talk:Taichung#No mention_of_population_in_lead discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
 * Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:53, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Volunteer note - Is this a dispute between two editors only? Is the question a yes/no question for which a Third Opinion will suffice?  Robert McClenon (talk) 02:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * A third opinion (WP:3O) was requested already, and someone provided their input.  The input was ignored and the other editor continued to bring up new objections. I believe the discussion has gotten to the point where there are now multiple points of disagreement. Thanks! Multivariable (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

First statement by moderator
I will try to moderate this dispute. Please read the mediation rules. Is the dispute about stating that the city is the second-largest city in Taiwan? Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they are asking about the content of the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:52, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

First statements by editors
Thanks for helping to moderate. I believe this dispute has been nearly resolved (pending confirmation from one of the editors). Yes, the main dispute is regarding whether the lead section could state that Taichung is the second-largest city in Taiwan. I think it's worth mentioning, especially since the change to 2nd (from 3rd) was a recent development, received substantial news coverage, and it appears to be fairly standard to mention population and rank in city articles to give appropriate context. I have not found the arguments against (e.g. that population rank is not notable, that stating it is ranked 2nd gives undue weight, constitutes a fringe theory, violates NPOV, etc.) to be compelling. Thanks! Multivariable (talk) 12:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator
Is there any disagreement with stating in the lede that Taichung is the second-largest city in Taiwan? If there is no disagreement, the dispute will be closed. If there is disagreement, state it in one paragraph. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:35, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Second statements by editors
Thank you for moderating again. It seems like the editor against this change is not responding to the discussion thread nor here. They have still not explicitly stated that they are OK with the change, however. I am waiting on a clear confirmation, since the editor has reverted agreed upon changes in the past. Could you please clarify your stance? Thanks! Multivariable (talk) 04:48, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * There has not been a reversion of agreed changes by me. Szqecs (talk) 12:22, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

The current revision is acceptable by me, hence there is no more disagreement. Szqecs (talk) 12:22, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

The Exodus
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

My edits being constantly deleted.
I updated the The Exodus page, to include the earlier exodus dates given by Josephus Flavius (a 1st century AD chronicler), and his assertion that the Israelite Exodus was the Hyksos exodus. But the update was deleted, because it was claimed that Josephus was a primary source.

I re-wrote the update to make it clear that Josephus was not a primary source (1,600 years displaced from the events, and he was analysing history rather than repeating it). But the update was deleted, because it was claimed that Josephus is not a reliable source. This is despite the fact that numerous other Wiki pages continuously quote Josephus without reference to modern interpretation.

I was told that I needed to quote a modern historian, so I re-wrote the update to quote two modern historians, who both discuss and support the Exodus dates given by Josephus Flavius (and his links to the Hyksos Exodus). But the update was again deleted.

They appear to be changing the goal-posts, to prevent this update. And the threat was made to block me for 'not being interested in making an encyclopaedia' (ie: not wanting to increase knowledge.)

Quite the reverse. Josephus Flavius - Judaism's greatest historian - makes some interesting observations about the Exodus, but the Wiki editors will not allow any mention them. Nor to Josephus' very interesting claim that that the Israelite Exodus was the Hyksos Exodus.

This is despite the fact that these same editors WILL allow a discussion about Manetho's assertions (who Josephus quotes). So why the selective editing? Why are discussions about Manetho and biblical dates allowed, but no discussion about Josephus' dates and assertions?

The full text of my update is available.

Tatelyle (talk) 10:33, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Extensive discussions on the Talk page.

How do you think we can help?

They asked for a modern commentary on Josephus Flavius, and it was given.

The claim is again made that Josephus is 'unreliable'. But most of Jewish history is fully dependent upon Josephus' accounts, and Wiki is full of quotes and assertions by Josephus. The first century history of Judaea would not exist, without Josephus.

An assertion by Judaism's greatest historian should be allowable, perhaps as a side topic - even if the editors do not agree with what he says.

Summary of dispute by Tgeorgescu
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Nope, the OP has problems understanding why according to WP:SOURCES the writing of the Ancient historian Josephus isn't a reliable source, while the works of present-day mainstream scholars are. WP:DRN does not trump WP:SOURCES. There can be no compromise about performing original research upon a primary Ancient source. If he/she will continue to claim that citing Josephus as if it were a reliable source could establish facts in Wikipedia's voice, he/she has no future as a Wikipedia editor. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:21, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Other problems with his/her reverted edits: citing a book from 1841 as if it were a reliable source (I have quoted myself 19th century works, but just to make the point that the claim wasn't new, other present-day scholarly works were provided for truly verifying the claim), lots of WP:Editorializing and WP:SYNTH (e.g. that Finkelstein's conclusions don't apply to the date advanced by Josephus, in itself this is true, but gets supposedly verified to Finkelstein's book which says nothing of the sort). About Richard Freund: his book has been lambasted as riddled with errors. Tgeorgescu (talk) 15:08, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Freund is apparently a maximalist, which in itself would be fine, but there are two notable maximalist scholars cited in the article (Kitchen and Hoffmeier) who have publicly declared that their aim is to oppose the scholarly consensus upon the Exodus, also they recognize that there is no evidence for Exodus, they just claim it wasn't impossible. Tgeorgescu (talk) 15:24, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

's comment about Isaac Newton comes too late to change any jot of WP:PAGs, this matter has been discussed to death: Newton's writings are not reliable sources, get over it, find other reasons to quarrel, drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:33, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Scathing review of Freund's book:, see also. What is Freund notable for? Discovering Atlantis. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:41, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Stating that Finkelstein stated that his point does not apply to the dating of Josephus, when Finkelstein did not explicitly state that that his point does not apply to the dating of Josephus is the very definition of WP:SYNTH. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:57, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Alephb
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I'm surprised this is coming to dispute resolution. The whole issue is laid out pretty clearly on the talk page at Exodus. I haven't been involved in all the edits, but the gist of the issue is an ongoing effort by Tatelyle to have Wikipedia treat Josephus, a 1st-century (CE) historian, as if he were a reliable historical source on events that are alleged to have happened about one and a half millennia earlier. To make things worse, we are talking about events which, according to almost all modern scholars, did not occur. Tatelyle is attempting to use a clearly unreliable first-century source to do an end run around the conclusions of modern scholarship and argue for the historical reality of the Exodus. The comments at Talk: The Exodus show that Tatelyle is using fairly tortured interpretations of Wikipedia policies to argue that Josephus is a better source than modern archaeologists. Their arguments would be fine if they were writing on their own blog or something like that, but the whole effort runs counter to Wikipedia's clear sourcing policies, and so far has included violations of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. In terms of broader context, the Exodus, like the Genesis creation stories, is a traditional tale which has been more or less abandoned by modern scholarship, and as a result, there are constant attempts to fight back against the consensus of modern scholarship on these sorts of pages and defend traditional religious interpretations, primarily by relatively inexperienced editors. This is more of the same, and there is nothing interesting or novel at stake in this exchange that hasn't, in various forms, already been decided by the Wikipedia community countless times. It is simply the latest attempt to relitigate the question of whether Wikipedia relies on the best mainstream scholarship, or whether Wikipedia allows is going to be a platform for the apologetics of WP:FRINGE views.

Josephus is, as is well known, not a reliable historical source on the Exodus, but simply a paraphraser and expander of biblical traditions. As Josephus says in his Antiquities of the Jews, Book II, Chapter 16, subsection 5, following his account of the Exodus: "As for my self, I have delivered every part of this history as I found it in the sacred Books. Nor let any one wonder at the strangeness of the narration; if a way were discovered to those men of old time, who were free from the wickedness of the modern ages: whether it happened by the will of God, or whether it happened of its own accord." Alephb (talk) 20:25, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by JudeccaXIII
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Summary of dispute by
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The Exodus discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
 * Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion on the article talk page. The filing editor has not notified the other editors of this filing.  Robert McClenon (talk) 04:26, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * A notice of filing has been left on the The Exodus Talk page. Is that not sufficient?


 * Tgeorgescu has replied that: "Finkelstein's book says nothing of the sort".  That is not true.  My reference back to Finkelstein's book is because he specifically links his arguments about Jericho to the 13th century BC - he was not considering an earlier date.  (Read the book. I did include a quote that confirmed this, but it was deleted.) So Finkelstein's observations about Jericho are not relevant when discussing Josephus Flavius' chronology.  If Finkelstein's assertion to an unfortified Jericho is retained without commentary, readers will think that the biblical/Josephus argument is completely false.  But during the biblical/Josephus chronology and era, Jericho was indeed a large fortified city, as the references I gave demonstrate.
 * If Tgeorgescu does not like the current arrangement, then perhaps there should be two sections - 'Early Exodus Chronology' and 'Late Exodus Chronology'.  Then readers would realise that the Josephus/biblical chronology does indeed equate with a fortified Jericho.
 * Tgeorgescu continues to say that Josephus Flavius is an unreliable source, and cannot be used. But as I said before, if Josephus Flavius cannot be used, then Wiki should delete every article it has about 1st century Judaea - because Josephus is pretty much the ONLY source.  Take a look at the entries for Herod the Great and Herod Agrippa II, and note the amount of information from Josephus.  Even the modern sources are merely analysing or quoting Josephus. (And these are articles where Josephus was often a Primary Source - unlike the Exodus era where Josephus is most definitely a Secondary Source.)
 * Tgeorgescu has said nothing about the biblical reference in the 'The Exodus' article. Why is a reference to a biblical date allowed, but not to the similar Josephus date (and his other assertions)?  I am under the impression that Tgeorgescu's arguments are partisan, because he-she does not like Josephus Flavius for some reason.  Perhaps Tgeorgescu would care to refute that impression.
 * Tgeorgescu castigates the books by Professor Richard Freund and Wilhelm Hengstenberg as unreliable. Since when is a professor disqualified from Wiki merely based upon the date he lived?  Can Wiki no longer quote Sir Isaac Newton?   There were many fine scholars around in the 19th century - many who were far more knowledgable than today's often lazy scholars. And why has Tgeorgescu become the arbitrator of which scholar is allowable on Wiki and and who is not?  (Freund is a professor of history, Judaism and archaeology who has excavated in Judaea for decades.) Where are the many references to Freund being 'unreliable'? (And not simply quotes from minimalists, who don't like maximalists.)
 * Tgeorgescu is suggesting that because Kitchen and Hoffmeier have already been quoted, then Freund cannot. Again, Tgeorgescu appears to be placing him-her-self as the arbitrator of which scholarly opinion is allowed and which is not. This cannot be right.
 * Tatelyle (talk) 10:15, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Post Script: I have notified the other disputants on their own talk pages.  I hope they will give additional comment. Tatelyle (talk) 14:46, 22 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Completely neutral party observation It seems that there is a blindingly obvious solution here. Do include the views of Josephus. Whether he's a primary or secondary source is an interesting argument but you needn't go there, because a) his view is clearly notable and b) modern scholarship supporting/debunking his view should be included too. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * And FWIW, it's extremely difficult to conclude that Josephus is a primary source on The Exodus. Look at our definition. Josephus is, absolutely, a primary source on The Jewish War, but not on events he perceived as having happened many hundreds of years before his own lifetime. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:50, 21 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Tgeorgescu says that: "Ancient historian Josephus isn't a reliable source".
 * The reliable source page says that a reference work must be published, which Josephus has been. And it is better if this is a tertiary education textbook, which Josephus is.  And regard the age of Josephus chronicle, Wiki says: "With regard to historical events, older reports tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing".  This would make Josephus Flavius a more trustworthy source than modern historians.  And as Dweller has pointed out, Josephus cannot be considered a Primary Source in relation to The Exodus.
 * In which case, I could quote Josephus alone, without reference to the two modern historians, Richard Freund and Wilhelm Hengstenberg. So for what reason have my updates to The Exodus been deleted?  Please could the editors who deleted my updates explain in more detail.
 * Tatelyle (talk) 15:11, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Tgeorgescu, in his determination to remove the arguments by Josephus Flavius, has found a poor review of Prof Freund. Here are some good reviews:
 * Quote: ... Richard Freund's Digging Through the Bible is a personal account of excavating the most important sites of the Bible, and it is spellbinding. A provocative and fascinating account of the major controversies of the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity. Rabbi Jeffrey L. Rubenstein, New York University
 * Quote: ... A fascinating, riveting excavation through layers of history (and quite literally, earth and humankind) that will be of tremendous interest to both scholars and a general readers. Richard Freund is remarkable at casting a fresh eye on texts and artifacts that seem to be well known, but deserve more careful scrutiny. Michael Berkowitz, University College London
 * Quote: ... Richard Freund has produced a very readable and stimulating book that addresses a number of vexing biblical issues. Thanks to his direct involvement in excavations in Israel, he is able to offer new firsthand data to bolster the case he makes. James K. Hoffmeier, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
 * Quote: ... Richard Freund s extensive knowledge of the literary and archaeological sources, as well as his insights and ability to make connections, make this a must-read for any student of the Bible. His work at numerous excavations in Israel and his experience as a professor and Rabbi make him uniquely qualified to write this lively book, which is comprehensible to both lay reader and scholar alike. Elizabeth McNamer, Rocky Mountain College; director, Rocky Mountain College Bethsaida Excavations Project"
 * Quote: ... Digging through the Bible does something that no other book on archaeology and the Bible does. It brings the reader in a pedagogical as well as in a very updated and well-learned way from the Hebrew Bible through the New Testament, touching on most of the major contemporary controversies about Jerusalem, the Exodus, Jesus, and Qumran. Adolf Roitman, curator, The Shrine of the Book, The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Israel Museum, Jerusalem


 * Besides, as mentioned above, the Wiki reliable source page says that Josephus Flavius IS a reliable source, and his observations and arguments should stand on their own, without modern commentary.
 * Tatelyle (talk) 20:06, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Tatelyle says, "the Wiki reliable source page says that Josephus Flavius IS a reliable source, and his observations and arguments should stand on their own, without modern commentary." This is false. The Wikipedia reliable source page never mentions Josephus. If you're reading WP:RS as indicating that a 1900-year-old source filled with known historical accuracies and fringe views, and which uncritically copies events from religious texts about events alleged to have occurred ~3400 years ago, is a reliable source, than you have completely missed the point of the reliable sourcing policies. It's worth keeping in mind that Josephus also has a chronology of the history of the world which includes a global flood and a creation less than 10,000 years ago. He is a fringe character on the distant past. The disagreement here is not primarily over whether Josephus can ever be mentioned. It is about whether Josephus is to be treated as a reliable source, which should be an easy decision. Alephb (talk) 20:37, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Josephus knew things no-one alive will ever know, it is hubris to keep his views out because they hurt your feelings. Manetho is still used in Egyptology for events 2 thousand years older than him (e.g. this) even though it is understood that his accounts are pretty garbled. Woscafrench (talk) 21:20, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * (third party comment) I'm not sure if my comment here is appropriate, I'm not used to DRN. Just pointing out that generally, ancient historians are notable and their views frequently summarized.  When contradicted or clarified by modern scholarship that is more widely accepted today, it is however important to also represent that modern scholarly consensus.  This has nothing to do with our feelings, in fact this requires leaving those behind to simply portray the view of scholars and accept that new discoveries can correct previous beliefs, which is also how science works.  "Josephus knew things no-one alive will ever know" what he really knew which we might never know was about his own life and time; the rest he reported from his sources, through the beliefs of his time.  — Paleo  Neonate  – 00:01, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Volunteer note - could you clarify "How do you think we can help"? If just the exclusion of Josephus is the issue, this is better discussed at the Reliable sources noticeboard.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:22, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Ching Hai
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

My request to move the article name "Ching Hai" to "The Supreme Master Ching Hai" was rejected just because the people who opposed,instead of discussing and evaluating the purpose and reason of the proposal, they use the following reason: the input in favor of the move should be from editors with more established accounts than the majority of accounts that have participated in this discussion. (As per my observation, many of these accounts are well-established accounts because many of them are also from the Chinese wikipedia) The reasons in favor of the move are clearly stated in the talk page. I was expecting that Wikipedia administrators should be fair and not bias. Also, please remember,this is a living person's biography, we should respect the subject by providing accurate and fair information on wikipedia.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

none, only in talk page

How do you think we can help?

I expect administrators to please read all the reasons listed out in favor of the move as well the opposition reason, and make a fair and unbiased conclusion.

Summary of dispute by GenQuest
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Talk:Ching Hai discussion
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Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Need_Geisler_and_Nix_et_al_added_as_reliable_source_citations
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

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Dispute overview

Hello, I am trying to cite several Textual Criticism Science books in several articles that are cited very poorly with late and erroneous research. The reasoning is given is that Moody publisher is Christian based. This is discriminatory to be clear. Geisler and Nix draw upon thousands of articles and other early to late science books. Wikipedia needs to be a little less biased. Thank you, Mark0880 (talk) 17:04, 23 August 2017 (UTC)Mark0880 I'm talking people about the same old game Their running them numbers and the winners never change The dice is loaded, the deck is stacked The game itself will hold you back — Thievery Corporation, The Numbers Game By "the game" I mean WP:PAG. In case anyone wonders, this is sarcasm. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:08, 23 August 2017 (UTC) Why is the source WP:FRINGE? Because, as seen from Moody, even Wheaton is liberal. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:12, 23 August 2017 (UTC) Feelings and poetry do not belong in scientific research methodologies. Mark0880 (talk) 17:37, 23 August 2017 (UTC)Mark0880 Your opinions are very subjective and emotional. I want to see real evidence posted, not your biased opinions. Please stop reverting my citations. Mark0880 (talk) 17:38, 23 August 2017 (UTC)Mark 0880 You won't obtain that by casting aspersions nor by exhortations. You have been invited to make a cogent case why Moody fulfills WP:IRS. I am still waiting for such reply. 17:47, 23 August 2017 (UTC) Like I already proved, Moody is based on verifiable factual data - and thousands of other sources. Moody's research meets all the requirements for Wiki required resources. There's no emotion in that. Please comply to Wiki standards. Thank you, Mark0880 (talk) 17:49, 23 August 2017 (UTC)Mark0880 Do you need to see the bibliography in those volumes to make a decision? Mark0880 (talk) 17:50, 23 August 2017 (UTC)Mark0880 Which article, which source, and which content are you attempting to support/challenge?Icewhiz (talk) 17:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC) He complains about th

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Ive reached out to my mentor as well - There'sNoTime‬

How do you think we can help?

I am looking for an admin appvl of these peer reviewed, world-wide classroom texts for source citations. Thank you

Summary of dispute by Tgeorgescu
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Nope, per WP:OTHERPARENT the question is being discussed at WP:RSN and besides assertions by fiat no cogent reasons have been presented why the Geisler source would comply with WP:IRS. Also, the matter is being discussed at WP:EAR. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:26, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by StAnselm
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Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Need_Geisler_and_Nix_et_al_added_as_reliable_source_citations discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. the problem isn't clear at all. The matter also seems to be pending at the Reliable sources noticeboard. I'd warn that taking the same dispute to different forums can be easily considered WP:FORUMSHOPPING. I'd suggest to either get the discussion at the other noticeboard closed and the dispute clarified or just continue discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard. Yashovardhan (talk) 17:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=18
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Hello, I am trying to cite several Textual Criticism Science books in several articles that are cited very poorly with late and erroneous research. The reasoning is given is that Moody publisher is Christian based. This is discriminatory to be clear. Geisler and Nix draw upon thousands of articles and other early to late science books. Wikipedia needs to be a little less biased. Thank you, Mark0880 (talk) 17:04, 23 August 2017 (UTC)Mark0880

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Tried posting in that forum but not really getting many responses from seasoned pros.

How do you think we can help?

I would like the accepted peer reviewed authors accepted into several articles. Thank you, Mark

Summary of dispute by Tgeorgescu
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The reason isn't that Moody is Christian, the reason is that Moody is marginal (both academically and as a number of believers that might be represented by its views). Another reason is that his fringe/weak source is contradicted by sources which are more reliable. Does he desire mediation for a WP:RSN debate? Is this guy for real? Or is he awarely trolling? This is especially the case after his previous mediation request was closed for forum shopping. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:06, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by StAnselm
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Summary of dispute by Approaching
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http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=18 discussion
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Talk:Kate Kelly_(feminist)#Mormon.2Fformer_Mormon
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The page in question keeps getting altered to state Kate Kelly is a member of the Mormon religion. She was excommunicated in 2014 and is no longer a member of the Mormon religion.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Issue has been discussed on talk page

How do you think we can help?

Assist in clarifying that Kate Kelly is no longer a member of the Mormon religion on the records of the church as she was excommunicated in 2014.

Summary of dispute by ChristensenMJ
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Talk:Kate Kelly_(feminist)#Mormon.2Fformer_Mormon discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Talk:Bay Area_Rapid_Transit#Historical_events.3F_.28ATC_failed.2C_train_crashed.2C_financial_mismanagement.2C_GM_fired.2C_entire_board_replaced....29
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Hello. I and another editor are having a disagreement about this section of the Bay Area Rapid Transit article. Since March, this section has been proposed for a move into the "History of the Bay Area Rapid Transit" article, a separate Wikipedia article which was developed to provide a more in-depth look at the planning, design, and construction of the BART system.

I did not suggest that proposed move, but I do support it, because I feel that this section is overly detailed and off topic of the main content of the article, which is about the existing, built, and operational BART system. I absolutely agree that the article should have a history section covering the basic history of BART. But because there is an entirely separate Wikipedia article on the history of BART, this seems out of place; I feel that the history section in this article should be relatively brief and concise as a result. I would take as a parallel example the history section in the Wikipedia article on the New York City subway system, which is quite brief, because there is a separate, far more in-depth Wikipedia article exclusively on the history of hte subway.

My preferred solution would be to retain a few sentences summarizing this content in the article's brief history section, and then move the entirety of the in-depth content to the Wikipedia article "History of the Bay Area Rapid Transit." (Note: I just checked and this entire section, word-for-word, has already been moved to the latter article. That only strengthens the case for removing most of it from the former.)

The other editor feels that moving this material to the BART history article is an attempt to erase BART's early history and managerial failures. As a result, we're at a deadlock as to whether the proposed move can take place.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We've had an extensive discussion on the talk page. I have suggested retaining a couple of sentences summarizing the content, but the other editor is not satisfied with that solution.

How do you think we can help?

I am hoping that an editor can provide some third-party input into the dispute, or at least can encourage other neutral parties to engage in a constructive conversation about whether this section should be moved or whether it should remain.

Summary of dispute by 166.107.163.254
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Bay Area_Rapid_Transit#Historical_events.3F_.28ATC_failed.2C_train_crashed.2C_financial_mismanagement.2C_GM_fired.2C_entire_board_replaced....29 discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
 * Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:43, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

First statement by moderator
I am willing to try to moderate this dispute, if it is a dispute about article content for which compromise is possible. The purpose of this noticeboard is to try to facilitate compromise on article content. I will ask each editor to state briefly, in one paragraph, what they think the issues are, so that we can determine whether there is an article content issue. Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they think is the issue or issues? Please read the rules. Be sure to respond to every request within 48 hours. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:58, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

First statements by editors
I don't have a problem with this particular section of content per se. My problem is whether this section of the content belongs here, in the article "Bay Area Rapid Transit," or whether it belongs in a sister article, "History of Bay Area Rapid Transit." The other editor is largely responsible for writing this material. It is excellent, well written, and well sourced. However, sometime in the past two years, the BART article became so long and detailed that the Wikipedia community chose to move several portions into sister articles, including the history of the system. Because there's now a separate Wikipedia article on the history of BART, I believe that this long section belongs there, and is now out of place in this article. I have proposed a compromise: I think that the BART article should have an overview of the system's history, a couple of paragraphs long, that would include a synopsis or summary of this content, and a link to the separate "History of Bay Area Rapid Transit" Wikipedia article for those who want to read more. I would take as my example the parallel case of the New York City Subway. There is a main Wikipedia article about the subway system with a brief synopsis of its history. Then there is a separate, very long article that gives the history of the NYC subway in exhausting detail. That's what I propose for this article and I believe it to be a fair, reasonable compromise. The other editor is attached to this material and feels that it should remain here in its entirety.Mole2 (talk) 08:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, the rest of this article is filled with techno-trivia. However, the justification for moving the 600-word discussion of the birth of BART, removing clutter, makes no sense—because the material is well-sourced, well-written, and notable. The modernization and expansion sections are 900 words long, but not as important. The proposed move (or evisceration) would bury unsavory episodes in another article, where the readership is 10 times smaller. If the article is too long, then other less-notable sections should be edited. This material should be positioned prominently, in line with its importance.—166.107.163.254 (talk) 18:04, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator
Is the historical material in question also in the history sub-article? If so, is there a policy-based reason why it is important to repeat it in the parent article? As a volunteer moderator, I am supposed to be neutral, but the argument for keeping detail in the parent article when a historical sub-article exists sounds like WP:ILIKEIT, known not to be a policy-based reason. If the main article contains too much techno-trivia, can the techno-trivia also be moved to a sub-article? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:47, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Second statements by editors
The historical material in question was already moved into the history sub-article (not by me). It's still there, but the other editor partially reverted that change by reincorporating it into the parent article, and asked for discussion about it on the BART talk page, which has gone on since March. I don't know of any policy-based reason why it should be repeated here word for word. I disagree with the following choice of words--"evisceration," "bury unsavory episodes"--which, to me, does not show evidence of assuming good faith. I fundamentally do not share the other editor's belief that a move to the history of BART article constitutes censorship. I am also uncomfortable with blanket declarations of what is or is not important. As for "techno trivia," I'm not sure what is meant by that, but I am willing to support the creation of other sub-articles on various topics, if that is the consensus of the Wikipedia editing community. Mole2 (talk) 19:37, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Removing the history for would weaken the main article. Core policies, namely (WP:DUE and WP:BESTSOURCES), support keeping the history discussion in the main article. Clearly, the discussion has high-quality, authoritative sources. It is not over-long, at 600 words. The sub-article has 10 times fewer readers, so moving (as opposed to copying) the history would be purely academic: irrrelevant to the average reader.


 * For example, consider the London Underground article. It devotes 2,000 words to history. The history was not moved to sub-articles, as the other editor is wont to do with the BART article. The history of BART is notable and important; and, it ought not be slashed in the frantic rush to trim the article.


 * One should look at the rest of the article, which is burdened with techno-trivia. The excess baggage should be moved to sub-articles. For example, the tedious 500-word section on Routes has a sub-article: “List of Bay Area Rapid Transit stations.” As another example, the tiresome 400-word section on Rolling Stock a has sub-article: “Bay Area Rapid Transit rolling stock.” And, yet another example, the dull, 1,100-word section on Hours of Operation and Fares has a de facto sub-article which is the official BART website. Note that the hours of operation and fares may change, so keeping them in the main article would be ill-advised.—166.107.163.254 (talk) 02:19, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator
I was asking the unregistered editor whether there is a policy-based reason why it is important to repeat the historical material in the parent article when it is already in the sub-article. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:54, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Third statements by editors
At this point, I don't have anything else to add. I can only refute the other editor's argument point by point.

1) The other editor continues to act as though he is the only authority over what is and what is not important, rather than leaving these decisions up to the consensus of the Wikipedia editing community, which proposed this merger in the first place. He uses subjective words such as "tedious," "tiresome," and "dull," which are not and cannot be factually based and are certainly not neutral. 2) He has yet to provide a policy-based reason why this material can't be moved into the sub-article. Given the existence of a sub-article, this section is not a matter of due weight but rather of undue weight within the parent article, as its length is problematic in terms of "depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement." Best sources is irrelevant in this discussion because the quality of the sources has never been questioned by anyone, and the text is not being eliminated, only moved. 3) By drawing attention to other sections of the article, he is deflecting from the main topic of conversation which is the move of this particular section. 4) He provides no statistical evidence to suggest that the history article gets "10 times fewer readers" than the parent article. 5) The London Underground example actually supports my position. Yes, there is a 2,000 word section on the history of the London Underground system in the main article on the London Underground, appropriate for a subway system that is far more extensive and far older than BART. There is also a separate, 7,300 word "History of the London Underground" Wikipedia sub-article. In other words, what we have is yet another parallel example to the editing community's consensus around how to handle the BART article: a main article that provides a comparatively short overview of the history (unsavory parts included), and a sub-article that develops those topics in depth. 6) Routes and hours of operation are a core part of this article, even if they are dry topics, as people wanting information on BART, which is a commuter train system, will want to know where those routes go. They can easily be changed and updated if and when they change. The rolling stock section is actually quite short now, as much of it was already moved into a sub-article on BART's rolling stock.

Mole2 (talk) 06:34, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The "consensus" of the community is perhaps overblown, based on just one or two editors. Editors should seek to strengthen articles, not only to cut and (possibly) weaken them. This discussion should be rooted in the WP policies, WP:DUE and WP:BESTSOURCES, which lend support to keeping this well-sourced and notable description in the main article. Moving the history to a sub-article would not be a “merger,” since the main article would no longer give due weight to the birth of BART. We should try to trim the techno-trivia, that's based on lesser-quality sources, and fills much of the article.


 * Moving the 600-word discussion of history would bury it in a (largely) unread sub-article. My claim that the sub-article had “10 times fewer readers” was too conservative. Statistical evidence from this year shows that it had 17 times fewer (!) readers than the main article. The main article has 632 pageviews per day, while the sub-article has just 38 pageviews.


 * The London article, a parallel example, gives history its due. Though the London Underground is older and has longer track mileage, the size of the London article (141,000 bytes) is comparable to that of the BART article (122,000 bytes). The discussion of BART history has 2,000 words, comparable to the London history section which has 2,100 words.—166.107.163.254 (talk) 22:17, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator
Okay, let's take it from the top one more time. I didn't ask for a point-by-point refutation. I asked the unregistered editor to provide a very brief policy-based reason why the historical information should be repeated in the parent article when it is already in the sub-article. That is all that I was asking for. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:45, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors
Since you only addressed the unregistered editor, I have nothing to add in the fourth statement. Mole2 (talk) 06:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The sub-article has a tiny readership, its existence has no bearing on the main article. This issue is well-known in philosophy: If a tree falls in a forest The events at the birth of BART were epochal in reshaping its management, board, and manual and automatic train controls. The dream of full automation was dashed. Reliable sources support the history, like the NY Times, and the State Legislature. The events should be discussed in the main article. The proposed move amounts to a "Point of view (POV) fork," as follows:


 * WP:POVFORK: “POV forks generally arise when contributors disagree about the content of an article or other page. Instead of resolving that disagreement by consensus, another version of the article (or another article on the same subject) is created to be developed according to a particular point of view. This second article is known as a "POV fork" of the first, and is inconsistent with Wikipedia policies. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major points of view on a certain subject should be treated in one article. As Wikipedia does not view article forking as an acceptable solution to disagreements between contributors, such forks may be merged, or nominated for deletion.”


 * WP:WHENSPLIT: “Consideration must be given to size, notability and potential neutrality issues before proposing or carrying out a split.” The split is not justified, because the historical events are within the scope of the main article. The 600-word discussion is not over-long, is notable, and has a neutral point of view.—166.107.163.254 (talk) 00:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator
On the one hand, the sub-article already exists. The question is not whether to split off the subarticle, but whether content that is already in the sub-article should be duplicated in the parent article. If the unregistered editor thinks that the sub-article should not exist, they may propose to delete it via Articles for Deletion.

On the other hand, since the sub-article already exists, the real question is whether to duplicate its content in the parent article. No policy-based reason has been given to duplicate the content. (The page view metric that is cited probably indicates that the other readers were not interested in the history.) However, a Request for Comments is the only remaining way to resolve this dispute, since the unregistered editor is insistent on keeping the content in the parent article. One last statement by each editor will be permitted, and it would be wise to use it on how to word the RFC neutrally, then a Request for Comments will be published. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors
I would appreciate the moderator's help in formulating a good Request for Comments. Here is my proposal:

Should this section on the history of BART's early train control problems be moved to the sub-article "History of the Bay Area Rapid Transit" and a condensed summary remain in the parent article? Or should it remain in the parent article in its entirety?Mole2 (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The list of to-do's on the talk page calls for the history of the early years: “We need to incorporate a bunch of information from this article. It has lots of (seemingly) factual information and provides some insight into the first years of the system's operation.” The content is notable and reliably-sourced, and it was copied later to a sub-article. The copying of the history discussion to the (little-read) sub-article is unimportant. The issue concerns how to edit/improve the the main article: Should the history section discuss the early years of BART?—166.107.163.254 (talk) 23:30, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator
I have composed a Request for Comments. I will be closing this discussion here shortly. Since I know that the participant editors want to discuss at length, that is what the Threaded Discussion section is for. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Could you please post a link to the Request for Comments? I haven't been able to locate it. Is there anything else that we should know about that process? I've already made most of the arguments I have from my point of view; should I repeat them in the RfC?Mole2 (talk) 01:35, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit#RFC_on_Section_on_Early_Train_Control_Failures

Talk:Historical authenticity_of_the_Book_of_Mormon#Olive_Horticulture
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I would like to add about two sentences, including pro/con points of view with references. Another editor heatedly opposes it for an ongoing series of reasons, which I try to answer and where I cannot see how the reasons reflect wikipedia policy. He has stated he doesn't think the page should exist. Given that the content is related to historical information about a religion, perhaps the motivations are strong.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Only long discussion on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Provide outside perspective and a calm, practical influence toward resolution. :)

Summary of dispute by TaivoLinguist
Religious issues are tricky. The article in question here consists of a series of broad-based sections that outline the main issues of the Book of Mormon's (BOM) supposed historicity. There are sections on archeology, geography, linguistics, and genetics. Each covers a topic that is relevant to the entire BOM content and the underlying story presented as fact within it. Two sections deal with major outside comments about the text as a whole and its historicity. Finally, the last section names two major Mormon research organizations that are responsible for conducting and publishing the church's historical and scientific research aimed at proving the BOM narrative. The other party wants to add a trivial matter that concerns a minor issue found in only one chapter of the BOM and not a fundamental issue. Once a single trivial issue is allowed to be placed on the page, it opens the door for hundreds of other trivial issues to be placed there by other editors who will then justify the pollution by, "But we talk about olives". While the other editor is sincere in his belief that olives are the most interesting thing in the world and that the chapter of the BOM where they are mentioned is the most important chapter in the whole book, I beg to differ. It is important to keep the big picture in view and not delve into trivialities on pages that are dedicated to the big picture. --Taivo (talk) 18:08, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Historical authenticity_of_the_Book_of_Mormon#Olive_Horticulture discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.  Question: Do you think that asking for a third opinion first would be more helpful? --Kostas20142 (talk) 12:24, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
 *  Answer: Thanks for the suggestion.  I thought about it earlier, and I am certainly willing to if you wish, but it seems less likely to help, since the page you linked says it works best if we are dealing in good faith, but less if the issue can't be solved on that talk page.  Can we try it in parallel to work on this DR page?  There has been much opportunity for others to comment and they haven't chosen to do so.  I am not confident that we are all dealing in good faith, as the other person (in the page's talk page) has repeatedly and strongly stated he doesn't think the page should exist, and now he pursues many (mostly empty, it seems to me) arguments to prevent adding anything to it (when there are known, easy solutions to that: if it becomes too long: one creates a sub-page or simply keeps things organized).  It very much seems, as I wrote in that talk page, that he is pursuing an editorial agenda (wants the page to be updated only if or as it agrees with his personal views), and feels ownership of the page.  --Lcall52 (talk) 15:24, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Counter-Answer. I will ignore the personal attacks by the other party.  This is a matter of WP:WEIGHT, a policy which the other party seems to consider of no importance in his arguments.  --Taivo (talk) 02:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Response: I do not wish my efforts be personal attacks; I respect TaivoLinguist's intelligence, ability, and greater experience editing wikipedia; I thank him for providing references that have helped educate me about editing; I hope to keep it factual and will again try that. The link TaivoLinguist provided says to give equal weight to both pro & con, per the weight of sources found.  The sentence I last proposed does that, by adding a sentence and the source suggested by TaivoLinguist (see my proposed wording in the talk page starting with "Here is a proposal", and my subsequent agreement with his suggestion to change "Others" to "Critics", and a request for further suggestions).  The link he gives just above also says "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.".  His argument earlier was not that they need equal weight, but that very mention of the topic, and the page itself, should not exist.  Before that, he gave other arguments (starting with his revert comment) which I also answered.  I'd like it if he could respond to my request for a better suggested wording.

I think he will feel the sources I cited are "BS" (19:49, 11 August 2017, and one prior, in the talk page), since they include BYU which he considers unacceptably biased.


 * (Not sure where to put this for clarity, since it is after the fact, but: where the box above says "please do not make personal attacks": I meant to indicate the state of the discussion by noting the other party's past comments on the sources. Perhaps instead of "I think he will feel" I should have said "he has said that", or I might have misunderstood. Anyway, thanks. --Lcall52 (talk) 14:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC))
 * ...but I tried to also already answer that in the talk page (those not having a certain belief will typically have less motivation to write in its support); I hope the quality of the scholarship I cited speaks for itself, if one checks the sources. The link he cited also says:  "Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view."  The link he cites also has a section on Religion which applies here.  (I wish him a luscious chocoloate-covered eclair, but if jelly-filled pastries are preferred, we can give that opinion some weight; with proper citations I *might* accept the mention of unfilled, that tasteless twisty kind, or pretzels and water.  Edit: please note nerd's small attempt to lighten with generosity and humor)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lcall52 (talk • contribs)

Counter-point You keep going back to the beginning of our discussion and minimizing the main point which I was making--that trivia has no place in an article that focuses on the big picture. You also conveniently ignored the part of WP:WEIGHT which is actually relevant: False balance for minority views. The discussion of olive horticulture may be of great interest to you, but compared to the other, major, issues discussed in grand terms on the page--archeology, linguistics, geography, and genetics--it pales to insignificance. You simply cannot move beyond that simple fact that your topic is not equivalent in weight to the other topics. That's the definition of "trivial". Do I think this article should be deleted for problematic issues of encyclopedic content? Yes. So what? Do I think that your sources are unscientific [BLP issue removed]]? Yes. So what? That makes no difference whatsoever to the trivial nature of the addition you want to make to an overview article. --Taivo (talk) 23:51, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Answer Sounds like triviality is in the eye of the beholder, at least here. There are ways to manage content when a page gets long, as mentioned. Again this seems like ownership behavior, as mentioned/linked previously (edit: in the related talk page).  --Lcall52 (talk) 13:52, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Nope Triviality can easily be measured.  1) Archeology, linguistics, geography, and genetics sections ALL involve the entire text of the BOM and are broad categories.  2) Olive cultivation involves one chapter of the BOM and is a narrow topic with very limited applicability.  That's easily measured triviality.  --Taivo (talk) 03:47, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * And Probably by far the longest chapter in the book, with a complete focus on that topic, and very relevant to the subject of the page, useful to its readers, and interesting enough for the authors of our citations to write about it. Can we have some DR input here?  Thanks very much. --Lcall52 (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Perspective "Longest chapter" is still a trivial amount when compared to the entire book. The BOM narrative as a whole is not about olives and does not stand or fall based on olives. It's still trivial compared to the broader narratives of archeology, geography, linguistics, and genetics. And "authors" have written about far more trivial topics than olives.  That doesn't make their contributions to BOM historicity still trivial.  As a scholar, I have written an article and read papers at conferences about a single suffix in a dying language.  While I find the topic immensely interesting, that still doesn't make it non-trivial in terms of the narrative of linguistic science as a whole or even historical linguistics in particular.  I would never seek to add a reference to it in the Historical linguistics article here in Wikipedia or even in the article on that particular language.  It's a matter of weight, not of personal interest on my part or the fact that "authors" have written about it.  --Taivo (talk) 13:06, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Still it seems clear to me that to readers and as a reader, it is very directly relevant, valuable and interesting, because it is something that is discussed at length and was unlikely for Joseph Smith to have known (IMO), given his very limited education. It is not a single suffix.  Perhaps we repeat ourselves and maybe should wait for others to comment now. --Lcall52 (talk) 14:26, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * This is an encyclopedia: we are not suffering an electron scarcity crisis. People can learn to skim or skip topics they do not find worthwhile.  If they come to this page, they are looking specifically to read about historical evidences and counter-arguments, of which this is clearly one.  Maybe now I can shut up.  :)  --Lcall52 (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

DR: help? --Lcall52 (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Still Trivia Your interest level is simply not relevant. We could expand any one of the sections on archeology, linguistics, genetics, and geography by a factor of three and still be more nontrivial than your "olive" instance.  We could include every single argument and counterargument ever made about any topic in the BOM and discuss ad nauseum how Smith could have fabricated (or not) the item.  That's not the point.  The point is that you don't ever include everything in an encyclopedia.  Never.  Britannica doesn't include every item of information.  It summarizes.  It sifts through mountains of data and summarizes the information.  And your olives are precisely a single suffix.  They affect one and only one chapter of the BOM.  They are so trivial that they are rarely even mentioned in the critical literature because there are much bigger fish to easily fry--"fish" that affect the veracity of the entire book, not just one chapter.  --Taivo (talk) 15:28, 22 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Volunteer note - While that had to be the most well organized DRN I have ever seen, it is also against the guidelines per WP:TOPPOST. So if editors would please stick to standard formatting it will help others to read and contribute to the discussion (please note the changes made to the formatting) Now, for a few points;
 * asked - Can we try [third opinion] in parallel to work on this DR page?
 * Answer - Unfortunately no. DRN may only be requested when no other dispute resolution venue is being used such as RFC, ANI or AFD etc..--Mark Miller (talk) 04:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * said: "Do I think that your sources are unscientific [BLP issue removed]? Yes. So what?"
 * That is simply uncalled for, doesn't further your argument in any way and gives the impression of losing your patience. It is also a BLP issue. I believe what you mean to say is that the source is too closely related to the subject for objectivity...correct? Because that is guideline and the other is just uncivil and a policy infraction.
 * No, that's not what I meant and I don't know what you are getting at with the BLP issue. It's immaterial. Perhaps you thought I was making a point about the authors of the references. That's not the point and the authors are irrelevant. The point is that [BLP issue removed]. They are wrapped in the cloak of respectable scholarship, but they are only peer-reviewed by other LDS scholars and church officials responsible for the task. This isn't news. It's the simple fact. But the whole issue, as my comment "So What" indicates, is that my opinion of the quality of the other party's sources is immaterial to the question of triviality. The other party to this dispute was implying in his comments that my opinion of his sources was important.  It isn't.  --Taivo (talk) 04:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * While you try to state one thing, you turn around and double down. Accusations against publishers or a university is a BLP concern per WP:BLPREMOVE, specifically; Libel. Please see Defamation. This also shows an extreme bias towards the subject. If your behavior at DRN is an issue I will simply close the request and recommend an ANI report. If you want a true resolution please show good faith and remain civil. DRN is not a platform for personal attacks or accusations against individuals, groups, publishers or authors. Seriously.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:25, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting. That wasn't an attack at all, but a simple statement of the facts as is well-known in both LDS and non-LDS circles.  But my original point is still that it's irrelevant to the topic at hand--the triviality of the propoosed addition to the article.  There is no further need to even mention it since it's irrelevant and I will play by the rules of your sandbox.  --Taivo (talk) 07:35, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * If you are prepared to follow DRN protocols the request can resume however, if you object to me as a moderator you can raise your objection on the DRN talk page with your rationale. If both editors wish to continue, please add arguments that are based on Wikipedia policy and guidelines. All comments, arguments and suggestions that are not within Wikipedia policy will be discounted.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:28, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * My arguments are above--the proposed addition is trivial and unencyclopedic when compared with the existing content of the page and its purpose. --Taivo (talk) 09:24, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Mine are also above. I wish to add a simple mention that some have written on a topic that seems to me very relevant to the page and fits its purpose; if not another page (or section) should be recommended, but it seems the best fit and I think wikipedia policy says that pages' purpose are determined by the community, or parts can be broken out when needed.  The reference I want to add is not an attempt to expound or argue the point, merely to mention that it exists, with references for and against.  The reference against the validity of the argument was provided by TaivoLinguist (the other participant in this disagreement), and I am pleased to include it.  I think if it seems trivial, it makes sense to keep it brief and of course things can be put in separate sections and/or written in a skimmable way so readers can find what interests them and ignore the rest.  I am happy to answer other questions; I hope things I have said in this discussion and in the article's talk page about this are helpful or at least relevant also.  Thanks much for your participation here and the reformatting. I'll read WP:TOPPOST in the next few days.  (If I'm missing an important point please feel free to re-emphasize it for my future reference.) --Lcall52 (talk) 12:40, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Continuing on Talk Page. I might note here that there are continuing substantive comments at Talk:Historical Authenticity of the Book of Mormon from previously uninvolved editors and a longer comment from me there as well (since it fit in context with the other editors' comments, it was better placed there than here). --Taivo (talk) 16:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I agree with his assertions on that talk page (it seems historically relevant to me, whether a not-well-educated person in modern history could have known, to that extent of detail, about something in ancient history; that is directly relevant to the historical question: is the writing ancient or modern? -- barring a more appropriate page or section for the content as I've suggested; etc, etc). I'm willing to discuss there but would be much more comfortable if 1) the moderator here requests that that discussion be carried there, and 2) if the moderator here thinks discussion there does not risk losing the chance to resolve here, especially if there is not a resolution there within some reasonable time. --Lcall52 (talk) 17:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The question of whether Smith invented or copied something into the BOM manuscript he was writing is not a question of historical authenticity. It's a question of whether Smith was or was not lying about how the BOM was written.  That's a different issue.  Historical authenticity is measuring whether the factual information that the BOM says is factual is actually factual.  Since the BOM never claims that olives were cultivated in the New World, it's not a question of factual verification and so isn't an issue of historical authenticity.  And the discussion on the Talk Page was continued by other, previously uninvolved editors.  Since they have chosen to discuss the issue there, there is nothing special about this page.  You wanted other points of view in the discussion.  You got them--two of them so far.  --Taivo (talk) 18:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Lacking a suggestion from you on an acceptable form or placement (my initial placement was in the "Other defenses of historicity" section), and given your comments here and on the talk page, it seems (at least) the effect of your arguments, from the first revert until now, is simply to stop the effort.  --Lcall52 (talk) 19:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I will await moderator input before continuing. Thanks.  --Lcall52 (talk) 19:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I do not, and never have, thought that this was an appropriate addition to the article. There is no acceptable place for it within the article because it is immaterial to the issue of historical authenticity.  It is relevant for the question of Smith's sources, but not for the question of historical authenticity which is the topic of the article.  That is basically the opinion of the two editors who commented on the article's Talk Page as well.  --Taivo (talk) 19:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The definition of "historical authenticity" given by TaivoLinguist seems unnecessarily strict and owner-like, for a medium not dedicated to academic specialists. The page Origin_of_the_Book_of_Mormon seems to deal with issues very specifically around possible authors who lived during Smith's time, and the witnesses during that time, not on BoM content issues like "could Smith have known this ancient history, under the real circumstances of his life".  The book claims ancient origin, and this is about its contents, not about suggestions on authorship.  So "historical authenticity" seems to me to match it exactly, more than other pages of which I am aware (pending correction by others).  Again I solicit a suggestion on form or placement, acceptable to others, for this simple information which tries to show both sides of an argument.  Or, if someone can explain more clearly why it goes in one page, vs. another; hopefully this wouldn't have to start all over again on the other page; in fact I would readily concede if you got it added to that other page without being reverted or without a gauntlet of objections that it doesn't fit anywhere.  Or someone could suggest (and demonstrate) any path to resolution that might accomodate all, without simply shutting the effort down.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lcall52 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 24 August 2017 (UTC)  edited 21:18, 24 August 2017 (UTC)~
 * ps: I note that the other 2 editors, in the article talk page, both seemed to say they found having a new section for this content to be acceptable. Not sure what it would be called since to me "other" already makes sense until there is a clear group with a common theme to separate out as a group. --Lcall52 (talk) 20:08, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Will the moderator give User:Lcall52 a warning about civility since he continues to negate my input with accusations of ownership? Seems only fair. My point is clearly stated and matches what the other two editors considered to be the best option for the page--leave the olives parable off since it affects one and only one chapter of the text, is trivial in consequence, and isn't an issue of historical authenticity, but an issue of Smith's sources. Origin of the Book of Mormon actually seems like a superior place to mention the issue of whether or not Smith copied olive horticulture from 19th-century sources or not. --Taivo (talk) 21:02, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Here's a good way to tell whether or not you're dealing with BOM historical authenticity questions or not: What is the question that the issue raises concerning the BOM?  If the question is "Is this real?" then you've got a historical authenticity question.  If the question is "Did Smith copy this from a 19th century source?" then you've got an origin question.  The olives question is clearly and unequivocally the latter since no one questions the accuracy of the description, but everyone questions Smith's source.  (By "everyone" I mean critics of the BOM.)  --Taivo (talk) 21:08, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Some thinking aloud here, for reaction: Short version: Another candidate pair of delineating questions is "is this about argued possible modern authorship?" vs. "is this about whether a description of ancient things fits in ancient times?".  That seems to fits the current content of both pages quite well--do you disagree?  Long version: I like the idea of having a division based on a clear question.  To me though, the way the questions are currently phrased means the section "Anthon Transcript", and maybe one other, seem muddy in that respect.  So my suggested delineating questions, which aren't perfect either, but it solves the "Anthon Transcript" question for me, and puts my citation back in the "historical authenticity" page.  Or is there an even better pair of questions?  So, while it isn't clear to me how to make the division in the future, maybe because the pages are so related, would you actively support adding a section, say, to the other ("Origin") page with the two proposed sentences (~"some have written...refs.... Critics however...ref.), and argue with me for that (if there were debate on that talk page)?  What would you suggest the section be called (something neutral :) ?  If we agreed on that (and I don't know yet if I do), we might still have to agree about my "North America" phrasing which you disliked (from the talk page, earlier)--and a suggestion there would be good, especially if it recognizes Joseph Smith's limited educational opportunities (and I acknowledge, that is only as far as is known, it's hard to prove a negative).  I'm mostly thinking aloud here, for discussion; not sure what I think about it quite yet.  (If I'm violating or neglecting something in this comment...other than lack of conciseness...let me know which policy....)  Thanks.   --Lcall52 (talk) 21:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I would support adding the olives with a comment on the controversy to the Origin of the Book of Mormon page, because I still strongly oppose its inclusion on Historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon page. And I would support moving the Anthon Transcript paragraph there as well.  It doesn't belong on the "Historical Authenticity" page (you'll note I never included it in my arguments against olives).  The controversy over the olives chapter isn't about its accuracy in olive farming, but over where Smith copied it from (a 19th century source or looking in his tophat).  That's "Origin" material.  --Taivo (talk) 00:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * One problem we have with all these "X of the Book of Mormon" pages is that they serve one and only one function--a religious one. Critics use them to bash Mormons and their book.  Mormons use them as a promotion tool.  Neither use is encyclopedic.  (And, hence, my willingness to do away with all of them.)  Both uses lead to "topic creep", where topics, such as the Anthon paragraph, will be moved by critics from page to page to page so that it's hard to find a BOM page that doesn't include some mention of the Anthon Transcript.  The same is true of topics that Mormons use to promote the book such as the olive topic.  There is, in fact, an entire article devoted to the Parable of the Olive Tree that reads like a missionary tract and not like an encyclopedia article (except in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism perhaps).  It's a pervasive problem in "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit" since there is little, if any, quality control other than the ethereal "consensus", which is virtually impossible to achieve on religious pages without creating paragraphs that resemble Frankenstein's monster more than they resemble Hamlet.  --Taivo (talk) 00:12, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The solution is described in the NPOV page. I'm still interested in your thoughts on my other questions, such as the split questions I suggest, and the others. --Lcall52 (talk) 01:26, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I have explained my position several times already and your arguments have not moved me in any direction. I have agreed with you that the Anthon Transcript section probably doesn't belong on the "Historical Authenticity" page and should be removed or moved, but I still think that your addition of olives is trivial and irrelevant to the topic of the page.  --Taivo (talk) 06:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Volunteer note - There are two additional comments from uninvolved editors at the talk page. has stated two things. First, that he is aware of this DRN request, and second, his view on the inclusion which is basically; "after taking a good look at the title of this article, History, I don't think a detail of horticulture actually fits".  added a reply. In the reply his opinion was basically; "My preference would be for removal, unless more and better sources can be found.". I say basically only because other comments made were not based on Wikipedia policy or unhelpful. Some comments could be seen as less than civil, to say the least. The new editors have the option of being added to the request as "involved editors" or may continue to discuss here on this DRN as uninvolved editors but even if the discussion returns to the article's talk page, editors are encouraged to remain civil.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:20, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Volunteer note - I have collapsed the discussion at the article talk page. I didn't notice if the moderator had asked for discussion to be centralized here, but it is usually the rule for the moderator to ask for discussion to be centralized here.  Please do not discuss this also at the article talk page until this discussion here is resolved (or failed).  Robert McClenon (talk) 20:13, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Volunteer note - One of the participants says that they will read the talk page guidelines within a few days. I don't know what the issue is, but reading the talk page guidelines immediately would be a good idea.  Robert McClenon (talk) 20:18, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Arbitrary convenience break

 * The issue seems to be about an inconclusive and minor argument, slightly referenced to fervent LDS apologists. It doesn't seem to be worth including - even the two or three sentences needed to outline it seem to give it undue weight - but I suppose it could be mentioned in a section of other trivial arguments. Richard Keatinge (talk) 23:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I continue to think anyone who comes to the page comes to read about a subject. That some don't find the subject interesting doesn't mean those who come to the page also don't; it has 2,633 page views in the last 30 days, per the info link.  Enough has been written to justify two short sentences, with sources both pro & con.  No one here has mentioned whether they have looked at the sources, such as the long article, with a well-written summary section at the end.  --Lcall52 (talk) 01:26, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * No. Enough has not been written to justify two short sentences of trivia that have little or nothing to do with the issue of historical authenticity.  Remember that those page views are looking at an article that doesn't have anything about olives, so trying to justify your addition by traffic to the page makes no sense.  Your olive comment is still trivial and is still not really a question of historical authenticity.  Put it on the "Origin" page because it has far more to do with whether Smith was writing fiction based on sources he had access to or not.  --Taivo (talk) 06:52, 25 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Volunteer comment - Wikipedia has a number of articles of this type. Whether or not to keep the article is not really a part of the dispute but has been brought up. The reason I think this might need further discussion is only because of something that I thought of early on but got side tracked from. That is, the article title is the only title making use of Historical authenticity of... We do have a number of articles titled; "Historicity of..", including the Bible. The article should probably be moved (renamed) to reflect this standardized, encyclopedic tone.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * We're not really talking about eliminating this article. That is an opinion I have, but it's not relevant to whether or not we add the other party's comment.  This dispute is about whether or not his comment is relevant to this article and is significant enough if it is (both of which points I would answer "No" to).  But we've never really included the elimination of the article in the discussion.  Changing the title of the article would be fine with me.  --Taivo (talk) 22:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I have a point here. The article has a number of issues. Some larger than others. A lot of reference format issues, the title is unlike any other of it's kind on the encyclopedia, large swaths of unreferenced content. Yet...it has a B rating. Not sure if it even constitutes a C article. Are editors being allowed to make changes that are even actually needed? Are they even trying?


 * There is no doubt that the subject being raised by the editor of the DRN is relevant to the Book of Mormon. Does that make it relevant to the historicity? The only way you can judge that is to parse it out and look at it. But to do it honestly we have to understand what we're trying to add this content to. We aren't rescuing an FA article. But we also don't want to add nonsense. Is this nonsense? No. It may constitute original research at the moment but there already exist a consensus among editors that it is related, if even just as trivia. The current form seems to have sources. Are they biased sources? Perhaps but how does that effect the reliability of the source? Can we dismiss a source for being biased? How much discussion has been provided to look at the content and how much has been simply to dismiss it? What is the actual point (even if badly written)? Can it be rescued? If not exactly why is irrelevant if it relates directly to a part of the Book of Mormon? Is it possible there is real context that could expand the mention to be more obviously related to a historicity? What every editor wants is to have their contribution given consideration. The debate has been long for you TaivoLinguist but I am not sure how much time has really been given in the discussion as to what the content is to begin forming an opinion for inclusion or exclusion. The actual part of the BOM is Parable of the Olive Tree. Is this something that can be, in any way something a source or author may have discussed at any length for historical significance or doubts published etc..--Mark Miller (talk) 23:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * (hitting page conflicts; will try to read the prior comment and reply more thoughtfully once I get this in w/o loss...) To try to merge some parts of the thread: I think my suggested delineating questions for the 2 pages' content ("is this primarily about possible modern authors?" vs. "is this about whether a description of ancient things fits in ancient times?") make a much clearer, less ambiguous separation between the content of the 2 pages we have lately discussed (origins, vs. historical authenticity): I propose that those questions are easier to understand how to apply to a specific case (vs. "Is this real?"), match the current content better, and make more conceptual sense going forward as a way to organize things.  But I'm willing to discuss that or see it improved still, or to hear a clearer pair of questions from you, as the ones you propose seem vague and easily re-interpreted in the future, and do not serve the readers' expectations that I think the pages titles create.  I quoted the hit count because it means people are interested in the general topic: I also found the Anthon Transcript quite interesting when I first read it, as it had info I had not seen before; the same would be true about my suggested content for readers who come to the page to learn about the topic (though there is less of it and it is perhaps less interesting than the Anthon Transcript, so the lesser # of words fits that difference).  I don't see the validity of arguing to prevent new information being on a page, just because it is not already on the page so people must not be interested (but maybe I misunderstood your point(s)).  You also didn't answer as to what section heading you would recommend, if the content were to go on the Origins page.  I also note  that none of my four references about that chapter are official Church sources, one of my references is 624 pages on the subject, another is a long scholarly article with 4 authors (available online): those four plus your reference seem well worth two sentences.  --Lcall52 (talk) 23:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Hopefully my last comment here and below are at least partially relevant to what you raise. --Lcall52 (talk) 23:12, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Honestly? It wasn't really helpful. Let's try to move past the older arguments. Not everything needs a counter point. Instead of discussing the sources themselves you need to try and demonstrate that the sources have context, support the claim and are reliable to the criteria of Identifying reliable sources. There are a number of articles this content might be able to go into however, for the moment, let us stick to the single dispute of whether or not the contribution falls within the scope of the article, which is historicity.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:07, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Religion articles, especially articles relating to a book that you either believe is 100% fake or believe is 100% real, have a problem with sources from the beginning. All sources tend to be biased.  Pro sources are invariably published either by a certain university press which the volunteers are reluctant to allow to be named or by an LDS church-owned and operated publishing house (which I won't name for the same reason).  This university press is a reliable press in all other topics, but is hopelessly prone to bias in topics relating to the LDS church and the BOM.  The inherent bias of the church-owned and operated press should go without saying.  Critical sources tend to be written by equally biased publishers because standard university presses don't wade into religious debates of this nature.  Because it is taken for granted in mainstream scholarship that the BOM is a piece of fiction invented by Smith, reputable scholars don't waste their research time and effort trying to disprove it with peer-reviewed scholarship.  Because it is taken for granted in LDS scholarship that the BOM is a work of divine revelation and factual, the publishers that they rely on seek peer-review among the faithful and not among mainstream scholars.  So relying on Wikipedia policy for reliable sources would strip this article (and almost all of the "X in the Book of Mormon" articles) of all its content and its very reason for existence.  Who reads this article?  The curious?  This article contains two and only two things:  1) arguments to steer the curious clear of Mormonism and 2) arguments to steer the curious into Mormonism.  So that's why this article should not exist IMHO.  But that's not the issue here, just background to why these articles tend not to operate like other Wikipedia articles with reliable sources, etc.  This issue has been debated many times on a variety of these articles.  In the end, non-Mormons tend to discredit these articles as of no encyclopedic value while Mormons want them retained.


 * So now let's get to the issue at hand with this background. The sources which the other party cites are considered reliable by the faithful.  They are familiar sources to anyone who has critically studied the BOM.  Critics consider these sources to be highly unreliable for the same reason that the faithful consider them reliable.  The sources are not the issue here.  The issues are 1) relevance and 2) triviality.  Triviality isn't always an issue of "But someone has written about it".  Triviality is weight, not just existence of argumentation.  This olive addition concerns a single chapter of the BOM while the other issues on the page concern the book as a whole.  But the greater issue that the sources point out and that is the basis for the great majority of Mormon writing on the topic as well as all of the critical writing is not one of historicity, but whether or not Smith copied a 19th source or not.  That makes this not a historicity issue (is the olive narrative accurate), but an origin issue (did Smith copy it from a 19th century source).  It's all about what question the sources are answering when they discuss this single chapter in the BOM.  They don't focus on historicity, but on origin.  --Taivo (talk) 01:19, 26 August 2017 (UTC)


 * WP:BIASED states; "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." and goes further to state; "Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that...", "According to the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff...," or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that...""--Mark Miller (talk) 02:28, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

The dispute
I would like to ask  to add the exact contribution in question as it was added to the article and the source or sources used to reference the claim below in this section. Also if you could please provide the diff of your addition. The diff is the history difference showing when you added the content. If you are unable to provide the diff that is OK.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I will go ahead and add the information to save some time. Here is the contribution in question and these diffs; diff 1 and diff 2.

--Mark Miller (talk) 21:47, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Volunteer comment - In looking at the contribution there are a few things that stand out.
 * First, the opening, which would certainly be a red flag for most experienced editors, starts off with unsupported attribution; "Some Mormon authors...". Wikipedia's Manual of Style speaks directly to this: "Weasel words are words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated. A common form of weasel wording is through vague attribution, where a statement is dressed with authority, yet has no substantial basis. Phrases such as those above present the appearance of support for statements but can deny the reader the opportunity to assess the source of the viewpoint. They may disguise a biased view. Claims about what people say, think, feel, or believe, and what has been shown, demonstrated, or proved should be clearly attributed". The use of this must be "properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions, if they accurately represent the opinions of the source".
 * The claim; "..have written that the Book of Mormon reflects an accurate understanding of olive horticulture". There appears to be some context missing as to why this is historical information. Which is why it seems out of place and/or like trivia that is disconnected from the rest of the article. That would be needed here for the claim to have context to the subject. That's very important.
 * Sources for the claims must be verifiable so that the reader and other contributors, can verify the claims are supported by the source. You have only provided the page number of one source. I'm going to stop for just a moment and look at the sources themselves before continuing.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:08, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Now I'm hitting edit conflicts so i hope i get it this time.  In case it helps, based on TaivoLinguist's suggested other reference and content changes (in earlier discussion on the talk page), this might be better:  "Some Mormon authors (in references) have written that the Book of Mormon reflects an accurate understanding of details of olive horticulture, that were not known to be available to Joseph Smith given his limited education at the time.    . Critics have written that relevant information about olive horticulture was available at that time, in the general region where Joseph Smith lived. ."  The diff is here:
 * Further suggestions on the wording (remove weasel-words, etc) are appreciated. I didn't cite pages in one reference because all 624 pages are on this topic. I like your suggested page title change, and thanks for your input in general.  --Lcall52 (talk) 23:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Or maybe "...given his limited education and the complex connections between the content and ancient practices." (per the breath of material in the references) --Lcall52 (talk) 23:22, 25 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Volunteer note - Could you "unpack" this please?


 * Break down each source. Please provide the page number of the source and if there is no available online preview, please provide a snippet of the exact portion being used to support which claim..--Mark Miller (talk) 00:19, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Not sure I understand. Do you mean assign each reference to part of the sentence?  For the sources, 2 are online and in each case the entire page is on this subject; 1 is an entire book on the subject so I'm not sure how to pick out pages, and for the other one,  I mentioned the pages in the reference.  They all cover the relationship between this BOM chapter and olive culture, such that I wouldn't know where to begin to break them down unless specific quotes are needed: it's a big topic so ... topic sentence of a chapter summary or such?  Which chapter, where the whole book is involved?  The 2 that are online are probably a good start.  The long book can be previews (ToC and more) via |amazon.com if you click "Look Inside".  (I'll answer your comment in the other thread, probably sometime tomorrow.)  That might not be at all what you were looking for but I can try again tomorrow. Thanks.


 * One way that this can easily be resolved is if the sources do not support the facts as being presented. Even by removing the word "Some", the issue is still whether a source claims that ; "Mormon authors have written that the Book of Mormon reflects an accurate understanding of details of olive horticulture that were not known to be available to Joseph Smith" and that this is not merely being supported by examples of Mormon authors who do. The same is a concern for the part about "critics". By "unpack" I mean simply to demonstrate that each source supports the claims by presenting either the portion from the source that is being summarized or provide clear page numbers so others may. Without that, the content is unverifiable and it's exclusion is justified. Can this be demonstrated as supporting or not by any involved editor? That will speed things along immensely.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:27, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * please don't forget to sign your posts and before you go for the day (if you are still around) could you respond to my last post directly above this one?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:33, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll hopefully think more clearly tomorrow than I am now, but a quick question: Are you saying provide quotes, or for someone besides me to look at the sources and confirm they say relevant things? The 2 online links are viewable by anyone in this thread; in one of them, even the closing summary is long but I could try to pull out the summary-of-the-summary, and hopefully not violate copyright, or if someone wants they could certainly bring it up...?  For one book I provided page numbers but not sure what else to do.  For the long book, the above amazon link then "look inside" is my best idea.  Sorry if I'm not getting it yet.  I'm not sure how to say "people have written academic articles, a section of a book, and an entire book on the subject" in wikipedese. --Lcall52 (talk) 01:41, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll give you 24 hrs to respond to the request above. Any editor can respond so, if the other editor wishes to unpack this and demonstrate that it is not supported by the sources directly then you can always reply. But, it was my hope that you could fully demonstrate with the sources you provided the claims being made. If you are unable to do so, that is what this comes down to.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:18, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * And just to be sure I am being specific, you need to show where, in each source, the claim is supported directly. You can use a link or you can type out a passage from the source (snippets of copyrighted works must be kept short but is allowed). The source cannot be the entire book. If the source is a longer portion than a single page, give all the page numbers but, it must be available to view otherwise I am requesting you, as the contributing editor to type out the portions and tell us the page number. Without the specifics this is likely to be excluded.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:23, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The first on-line source (I don't own the off-line books) is focused on the origin and how the olive narrative supports Smith's translation work and not his authorship based on 19th century sources:  "Jacob 5 is a virtuoso performance by Joseph Smith in his role as translator. He presents an intricate, accurate account of olive horticulture, and uses variances from the "proper" technique as a teaching tool. It should be noted that there was (and is) no olive culture done in New England. Furthermore, the original manuscript exists for part of this chapter — Jacob 5:46-48, 57-61, 69-70, and 77. Only one word is altered after dictation: "diged" in "digged about" of verse 47. [1] Thus, Joseph produced this material by dictation, with no revision. "
 * While the second on-line source contains an extensive discussion of olive horticulture comparing it to the BOM/Zenos narrative, in the final section "Conclusion and Perspectives" the focus is almost entirely on whether or not Smith could have known these things based on his upbringing in New England and limited knowledge of olive horticulture.  In other words, it looks like a historicity issue with the length, but its focus, as conclusively evidenced in the final concluding section, is on origin just as in the first on-line reference.
 * The third on-line source listed above is a critical source from an on-line ex-mormon forum.  It is entirely focused on origin and not on historicity at all.
 * In conclusion, the three on-line sources focus all their arguments on the issue of origin, and not on the issue of historicity. Even the lengthiest of the on-line sources concludes that the accuracy of the olive description supports Smith's origin story and not the critical narrative that Smith's tale is fiction and he pulled the olive narrative from 19th century sources.  --Taivo (talk) 02:43, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that explanation, and the earlier clearer distinguishing questions for choosing between the two pages, and for (earlier still) saying you would support putting this on the Origins page. What section would you propose for it, on the Origins page?  (I still need to read & think about Mark Miller's comments and links about sources, and how that relates to this proposal, or to all the content, on the two pages mentioned.)  --Lcall52 (talk) 14:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Wait...the 4th reference is a reddit forum? Why was that not a bigger issue than biased sources? Was this discussed and I missed it? At any rate...no, we cannot use a reddit forum. No, it is not a reliable source and no, there is no manner or way to rescue that.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:10, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The reddit source was proposed by TaivoLinguist as a balancing (opposing) viewpoint; thinking of the general NPOV idea, I didn't oppose (ie, "mormons wrote X, critics wrote Y"). --Lcall52 (talk) 14:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The specific source being excluded is number 5 ^ "Jacob 5. Olive trees allegory and apologetics". Retrieved 2017-08-25. It is above the box quote because I excluded the inline sources in the slightly different version.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:17, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Now you are experiencing first-hand the world of BOM articles--biased, unscholarly, and unreliable sources are the norm. In this case we witness the frustrating bifurcation of sources. Mormon sources from LDS scholars have all the trappings of reliable scholarly sources (until you delve beneath the surface to see that peer review is only among the faithful and the publishers are church-owned at some level [including at church-owned universities]). Critical sources are rarely from scholarly sources because no self-respecting scholar will waste his precious research time on countering Mormon claims because it 1) does nothing to promote his/her career and 2) is virtually impossible to publish with mainstream and academic publishers.  Without the balancing, but admittedly poor, critical voices, these articles easily turn into missionary tracts.  --Taivo (talk) 03:23, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The decision whether to believe something, or on whom and what to trust, can have many different reasons, and carries logical implications. It is not surprising that believers would be more motivated to write about why they believe, or that non-believers (in any thing) might be less likely or motivated.  --Lcall52 (talk) 14:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Look at the article Parable of the Olive Tree for an example of a BOM article that, without balancing critical voices, is virtually a missionary tract. --Taivo (talk) 03:30, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Source number 4 (working backwards) ^ "The Allegory of the Olive Tree - Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship". Retrieved 2017-08-09 has very a very specific description of what the paper is; "The purpose of this paper is to analyze the botanical and horticultural aspects of olive culture inherent in Zenos’s allegory and compare them with ancient and modern information about raising and cultivating olives.". With nearly the entire publication being merely an interpretive analysis of the Jacob 5 from BOM. With only a few paragraphs at the end for any conclusions. I am not entirely sure I am seeing the same context the original DRN requesting editor saw. I'm inclined to agree with TaivoLinguist that this is a trivial or passing mention. Let me be clear, it does support some of the passage. In particular; "[t]he Book of Mormon reflects an accurate understanding of details of olive horticulture that were not known to be available to Joseph Smith". But it does not state it was because of his education level but that olives did not grow in the eastern climate and this information would not have been widely available there at the time ( "Not much more than this was known about olives in the eastern United States (an area not suitable for olive cultivation) in 1829 when the Book of Mormon was translated" ). Here are the supporting snippets; "Most of the botanical and horticultural principles in Jacob 5 are sound" and "Joseph Smith probably knew how to prune, dig about, dung, and nourish local fruit trees; he probably knew a little about grafting, and he may have been familiar with some other horticultural principles, but not likely those peculiarly related to olive culture." The problem is, this is an opinion piece because it attempts to interpret and analyze the passages and then draw conclusions but the conclusions are not direct to the context of historicity, just an overview of the origins of the section as TaivoLinguist stated. This tries to draw a reasoning as to why the passage is there and interpret the allegory itself. It fails to draw a conclusive, direct explanation as to if or how Joseph Smith wrote the section. It can support a small portion of the statement but not as written and because it does not have the proper context of historicity I would have to agree that it fails context and is also theological interpretation or opinion which would have to be attributed in the text of the claim which would then give undue weight to these authors opinion.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:01, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Source number 3, FairMormon is not a reliable source. It has no editorial oversight or a reputation for fact checking. It's a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:08, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I need to think about all the above, read the earlier links about reliability etc. from Mark Miller, and I am not sure I'll have the time/ability to do a good job at that today or in a given period of time. Thanks very much for the discussion and input; this has been/will be a learning experience.    Perhaps later I can try to rewrite the proposed passage per Mark Miller's comments of 02:28, 26 August 2017 (UTC) and of 04:01, 26 August 2017 (UTC), and consider a section for it on the Origins page; constructive suggestions would be most appreciated.  --Lcall52 (talk) 14:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * (I support the suggested page rename if someone else does it, but before I start another dive I also want to learn about archiving and how to check older talk page comments.) --Lcall52 (talk) 14:38, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Uncontroversial Page Move Requested
Uncontroversial page move to "Historicity of the Book of Mormon" requested here. --Taivo (talk) 16:14, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The notification said an old page of the name "Historicity of the Book of Mormon" was deleted (prior to the move). Is there a way to see if there was pre-existing content on that old, now-deleted page? --Lcall52 (talk) 17:14, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The old page was a redirect. Content is moved automatically when a page is moved to a new name.  There was no content there.  It just means that at some point in the past the page was moved from "Historicity" to "Historical Authenticity".  --Taivo (talk) 17:33, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Ken Ham
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I am trying to change the obviously biased first paragraph to a less biased, more neutral version, while one other editor keeps reverting it for no valid reason besides he believes in something different.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried a civil conversation with the other editor, and when it got heated, I apologised and he continued to be hostile.

How do you think we can help?

Review my edit and give an unbiased answer to whether or not it should be changed.

Summary of dispute by Ian.thomson
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. OP twice tried to censor the article, then tried to create artificial balance (reverted each time by different editors), then cited a public opinion poll (that didn't quite back up their argument) for a scientific claim. This is removing or downplaying material that the talk page archives reveal regular consensus for. It was only after this that I finally entered the scene, reverting his latest edit to the article, warning him about edit warring using the standard template, and starting the talk page discussion.

Zsnell443 then claimed that we had accused him of "inciting a riot" (demonstrably false). When I notified him that CreationWiki and Conservapedia are not regarded as reliable sources, he stuck words in my mouth, and called me a close-minded, "anti-theology" atheist (something that is easily verified to be untrue, as if it was relevant at all). I pointed out that this was neither true, relevant, nor especially insightful into the relationship between religion and science; and tried to explain succinctly our policies regarding sourcing and neutrality. He did apologize, while claiming that failure to include his personal beliefs amounts to bias in the article (regardless of our policies) and showing a lack of awareness of what exactly a Scientific theory is. I elsewhere again tried to explain our site's policies regarding politics and faith, as well as letting him know that there's more to the world that Christian creationists and Atheist "Darwinists," apparently to no avail. I did admittedly dare him to try to insert his POV into the Evolution article (and implied that his continual accusations were psychological projection), though it proved necessary to clarify that he'd have to use edit requests. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:43, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * To clarify, when I said "censorship," I did not mean later disagreement but the initial removal of sourced information that disagreed with their POV. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:30, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Ken Ham discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
 * Volunteer note - The filing party, User:Zsnell443, has listed one other editor. In fact the filing party has made edits against consensus that have been reverted by several experienced editors.  The filing party is trying to give equal weight to a fringe science position, and has been cautioned about ArbCom discretionary sanctions involving pseudo-science.  Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Volunteer note - Based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines, including that neutral point of view supports mainstream science rather than fringe science, the other editors appear to have been correct in reverting the filing party's edits. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Volunteer note - This thread will be closed shortly unless a policy-based reason can be given why it should be kept open. The filing party may choose to discuss at the fringe theory noticeboard, but is likely to be advised that their viewpoint is fringe.  Disruptive editing may be reported at Arbitration Enforcement.  Robert McClenon (talk) 16:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Volunteer comment - Please do not refer to the removal or reverting of edits due to a point of view dispute as "censorship". Please do not refer to the edits by the other editor whom you think is wrong as "censorship".  It is popular to shout "censorship" in order to "win" a content dispute, but it doesn't really resolve the dispute.  Usually it is the POV warrior who claims that removal of their edits is censorship.  This time it seems that the experienced editor who was maintaining neutral point of view complained that the other editor had censored their edits.  It doesn't matter whether you are right or wrong or in accordance with or against Wikipedia policies.  The other edits are very seldom censorship.  This isn't censorship; this is a dispute about pseudoscience.  Robert McClenon (talk) 19:21, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Volunteer comment to User:Ian.thomson - Yes. Removing good scientific information still isn't censorship.  There are many forms of disruptive editing, and most of them are not censorship and most of them are not vandalism.  You can "win" a content dispute by being right without having to claim "vandalism" or "censorship".  Robert McClenon (talk) 21:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Infinity Isha
The concept of Infinity Isha Upanishad.

Dear Sir or Madam,

I wiki-war or wiki-battle, howsoever you want to look at it, is being waged on the page of Infinity. The bone (sholok) of contention is a sholok from Isha upinishad that talks about the concept of Infinity. I will not like to bias your adjudication, but I do want you to look at the talk page dealing with the topic. There are several talk page sections that deal with the topic, therefore, I request a patient perusal of the same.

As per wiki-policy, I think since there are so many strong opinions about the concept having originated in the quoted text, I think it should be allowed to be placed here and the citations can be provided. Also, can be added and conversation can continue on talk page.

Please advise! Thanks! Wilkn (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Dan Wagner#Non_consensus_based_update_to_article
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

There's a dispute on the article about Dan Wagner regarding him being the founder of British E-Commerce. There are references present pre-internet to which I am able to provide scanned copies of the reputable newspapers and coverage (and, indeed, have done soon the talk page). There are also recent online references present from Asian national newspaper sites. But there is disagreement to their interpretation and reliability between editors. In my opinion, many of these references can easily be used to credit the subject person being at least called the founder of British e-commerce attributed to that source if not called the founder of British e-commerce as a fact. The former way of saying it was also my suggestion of a compromise and likely more neutral version if some one thinks that is more neutral.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Detailed talk page discussion has taken place, I have provided references and argued with contributors but the disagreement continues on content and also on how to interpret these references.

How do you think we can help?

There is contention due to some editors being blocked and others assuming other editors maybe related which has lead to more discussion about contributors and less discussion about content. Putting this aside, some prejudice on the content as well may cause this disagreement. I would like to take the help of moderators who can review our references neutrally and help us stay focused on the discussion about content.

Summary of dispute by scope_creep
Hi I don't have a dispute as such. I undertook a copyedit of a heavily spammed WP:BIO article: Dan Wagner and took out everything that wasn't puffery, or couldn't be verified via references, of which there was a lot. It was full of blog references, WP:OR, puffery, financials, share prices, IPO's, share movements, monies gained, and other non notable stuff; everything you see in this type of puffed up article written by spammers, several of them have now been blocked. The person who opened this dispute, at: User talk:95.210.221.6 wants to put a statement back in, which is synthesized from various newspaper and online articles and can't be verified to be true, hence the reason I removed it. Specifically, 95.210.221.6, who I have asked to undertake disclosure per WP:PAID, as it is somebody representing Dan Wagner, want to put in the statement that Dan Wagner is the father of eCommerce. After several hours of searching I couldn't verify the statement. I like these father types, as I'm a software engineer,like Vint Cerf, father of IP and Alan Turing, father of AI, but couldn't verify the statement. It was that original statement, that got me copy editing the article in the first place. My reason for taking it out, is it couldn't be verified as factual. It is plain WP:OR. If it was a known thing, it would be all over the shop, in IT and computing books, magazines, newspapers, the wayback machine, whitepapers, but it isn't. scope_creep (talk) 16:33, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. It is the founder of British eCommerce. scope_creep (talk) 21:23, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Yak shaving
As stated on the talk page, the original citation from https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3193955 is actually 'the founder of the British e-commerce'. That particular piece reads like a press release and is questionable under WP:INDEPENDENT & WP:QUESTIONABLE. 5 of the 6 Chinese supporting articles cited in the talk page are word-for-word the same as the Taiwan News article. The last Chinese article from the China Post does not support this claim. The newly supplied press clippings do not call the subject the 'founder of the British e-commerce'. The IP editor claims the clippings imply the subject is the founder and/or a pioneer which is WP:SYNTH, 'is a conjectural interpretation of a source' (WP:BLPREMOVE) and has no place in WP:BLP. I agree with the both, & , the statement should no be included. Also, it's worth noting this is a similar POV to other previously banned IP's/users, most notable who was recently banned for socking, WP:QUACK seems very relevant. Yak shaving (talk) 14:14, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Melcous
I first came to this article as it had been flagged as one with WP:COI and WP:PUFFERY issues. I don't claim any kind of expertise or knowledge on the topic or subject of the article. But to make such a broad claim as "the founder of ecommerce" in the opening line of a WP:BLP would seem to me to require consistent and widespread confirmation (and as has been said above, if the claim was true, one would expect it to have that kind of verifiability). Instead what has been proposed is a mixture of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, as well as some poorly worded Chinese and Taiwanese sources that appear to be based on press releases issue by the subject of the article (or his company) when entering that market, at least one of which appears to be truncated from a quote that simply refers to him being the founder of a particular ecommerce company. The discussion has been made more difficult by the history of promotional editing on this article, and the difficulty in distinguishing between a number of IP editors, but there has seemed to me to be a fairly clear WP:CONSENSUS on the talk page that the phrase does not belong in the article. Thanks, Melcous (talk) 04:32, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ol king col
The claim that the subject is "the founder of British e-commerce" or words to that effect is being pushed by the filing editor based off 3 articles, the first is a recent Taiwan News article which as another author has noted appears to be based / repeating a press release. Of the other 2 sources 1 is 20 years old, the other is nearly 30 years old, both are press clippings that the filing editor has been able to supply, but no one else has been able to verify. That these articles state words to the effect that Dan Wagner was involved in e-commerce is not in dispute. Claiming he is "the founder" is what most other editors disagree with as outside these articles there is no other verifiable source. In fact there is plenty of evidence that E-commerce was happening in the UK before Mr Wagner even set up his company, and therefore it can not verifiable that he is the founder. The filing editor has made 2 recommendations, one that the statement "Dan Wagner is the founder of the British E-Commerce." as this is clearly unvrified, and untrue it can not be included. Alternatively they believe the article should say "Dan Wagner has been called the founder of the British E-Commerce by [attribute here]." I can supply 3 articles comparing the subject to David Brent http://www.billboard.com/articles/business/7341836/powa-dan-wagner-david-bowie-brent & http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3894780/Real-life-David-Brent-convinced-Goldman-Sachs-firm-worth-16bn.html & https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/28590/bowie-bentleys-and-cantonese-powa-failure-fallout-rumbles-on by the filing editors own argument we should include the statement that "Dan Wagner has been compared to David Brent". That's a patently ridiculous statement, and not worthy of Wikipedia. Finally, the subject has been in the news alot in the last few years, first for generating a huge amount of Series A investment for his business, and subsequently for the collapse of the same business, in not one of theses many, many articles in many, many very reputable publications has the claim that he is the "founder of British e-commerce" appeared. Ol king col (talk) 13:51, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Comments by 95.210.221.6 (the filer)
95.210.221.6 (talk) 09:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I have myself mentioned in "How do you think we can help?" section that there is contention on page related to previous editors. I know parties that maybe related to the subject or against the subject in some way were blocked and that has created more contention on the page with the remaining editors. However, I have no relation to any of the other editors (current or previous). I only joined this page when I tried to make an edit and was told to discuss it on the talk page. Editors may think that consensus is not in favour of adding the phrase but surely that is why I am here, no? To help determine a clearer consensus as I understand that consensus is not a vote of more editors, but rather valid arguments matter. Please help us determine a clear consensus and interpret the references correctly.
 * I have made two recommendations:
 * Say "Dan Wagner is the founder of the British E-Commerce.". I have given references here https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8CxFjCGp3NEWlU0ZVlfTGMwd0U and here https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8CxFjCGp3NEWlE2eGphSEtaajA and much more recently here https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3193955.
 * Say "Dan Wagner has been called the founder of the British E-Commerce by [attribute here]." If editors disagree with above, references still support this.
 * I think the second statement is fairly neutral and does not promote point of view of the subject or any editors, it also does not need widespread references as it will not be mentioned as a fact, it will be attributed to a specific, notable sources saying that. Editors have disagreed to this on talk page but I believe that this point of view is counter to wiki policies so I want the moderators here to evaluate this option as it is WP:NPOV. 95.210.221.6 (talk) 16:17, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Has been previously discussed here but the issue was closed as number of IP's were banned - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&oldid=789452294#Talk:Dan_Wagner.23Intro Yak shaving (talk) 14:52, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I want to note that King Col and Yak Shaving are also both singularly focused on this topic only and which is fine to have interest in a single topic but I want to request moderators to keep the discussion in line by striking accusations as users were banned on both sides and I have no idea who is who apart from the ones I am talking to in this dispute.

Talk:Dan Wagner#Non_consensus_based_update_to_article discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
 * Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. The filing editor has notified the other editors.  Robert McClenon (talk) 21:33, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Evaluating the merits of the case and spec. the sources.--Hi, can you elucidate a bit more on your current stand?Does corrected means that you accept him as the father of Brit.Ecomm.?Thanks!Godric on Leave (talk) 16:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * No I don't accept him as the founder of British eCommerce. It was merely confirming Ol king col statement. That was the original statement of the spammer, or series of spammers going back several weeks/months; the situation is confused, but that they needed to put in that particular statement in, to push the individual from merely being a commercial manager, director entrepreneur type into somebody in the same realm as somebody like Tim Berners-Lee, which of course is incorrect and can't proven as fact. The reason I conflated founder and father, is a kind of lexical trap, which that  statement provides, and which I fell in to. And you would think I'd know. When you say founder, meaning they began it, the beginning, as in start in the computer industry, it means you invented it. That is what the spammer expects the reader to think, when reading the article. He must have invented the British eCommerce. It is false. He may have used to technology invented by other people, in the first instance of a particular type (which may have been innovative), but to say to he was the founder of British eCommerce is entirely false; can't be proven per WP policies. It is entirely synthetic argument built on press releases and hearsay. The first time I heard the term Ecommerce was in 1995/1996. I was the big thing. Truly, everybody was in on it.  But it was invented by Michael Aldrich 20 years before that, who is the true founder of British eCommerce.  scope_creep (talk) 11:57, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

95.210.221.6 (talk) 08:31, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Godric on Leave and Robert McClenon, can you inform me how to proceed from here? Can you check the references I provided. They are not press releases, one is from a national UK newspaper, another is from the main publication for the advertising and marketing community and the third is one of five articles that appeared recently in Taiwan (with the one provided being the most authoritative - Taiwan News). Other language references are allowed on wikipedia and these are translatable. There are also English scanned copies in my references (as explained above).

First statement by moderator
I don't understand what this dispute is, because there has been so much back-and-forth. Will the editors please read User:Robert McClenon/Mediation Rules and please each submit one paragraph saying what they think the dispute is about? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

First statements by editors
The filing editor wants the opening line of the subjects wp:bio to include the statement that the subject is the founder of ecommerce in the U.K. based off three articles. One article dates back nearly 30 years, one article dates back 20 years, and the third articles validity has been questioned. No registered editor has found any validation that the subject is "the founder", in fact editors have found and supplied evidence that ecommerce was happening in the U.K. before the subject even set up his company. Other than the three articles, despite the subject having been written about alot, no other corroborating evidence or sources has been found. Consequently nobody supports the filing editors insistence that the opening line should refer to the subject as the founder of UK ecommerce, and because no one agrees filing editor has referred it here for additional input / review. Ol king col (talk) 17:34, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

The article introduced the subject as the 'founder of British E-Commerce' for some time and other editors recently removed it saying it was not verifiable. When I started editing this article, I looked at the talk page histories and libraries and in fact found a number of highly credible, verifiable references as I was requested to do by these editors. I have given these references in my main statement. I think the article should state one of the following 1) Dan Wagner is the founder of British e-commerce, or 2) (if the references are not enough to use this as a fact, then) Dan Wagner has been credited as being the founder of British E-Commerce by [source#1, source#2 and source#3]. No matter what other editors think about their original research of who came first in the UK with ecommerce, the sources I give still credit the subject as being the founder so it is not a lie to say that these sources at least credit him with this. Regarding the volume of articles stating the subject as being the founder of british e-commerce, the fact that these articles were writing about the subject before online archives comprehensively covered all newspapers and magazines should not detract from the facts that these verifiable sources credit the subject in this way and at the time -- 95.210.221.6 (talk) 11:20, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi Robert McClenon. The editor above wants to include the statement that the subject Dan Wagner is the founder of eCommerce in the UK, based on three articles. The first two articles are dated around 1986 when the company was expanding and the maid company starting in 1984. The third article, the Taiwan one, is a journalistic viewpoint, based on press releases and cant be collaborated. An extensive search conducted by myself to collaborate the statement was undertaken and no supporting evidence was found. In that search I used the wayback machine, which has stored over 300billion pages from the early internet which includes the period of the 80's and 90's, and no mention of Dan Wagner as founder of British eCommerce was found. Instead evidence was found that Michael Aldrich was the founder of British eCommerce in 1979 and that Thomson Holidays UK E-commerce was the first to use eCommerce in the UK in 1981, several years before supposed invention by Dan Wagner, in 1984. I have no doubt that Dan Wagner did something with the available technology that he considered innovative and perhaps was (I think it was), but to attach a label eCommerce on to it, which didn't come into use until 1995/96, which is widely collaborated, and take the credit for inventions and use that were invented several years before, by somebody else, and in use by Thomson Holiday several years before, is false. It is a case of somebody doing something new, thinking they have inventing it, and trying to take credit for it decades later, with a label that fit the technology at the time. WP shows true order of events. It could potentially be the first B2B system in the UK, and if it can be proven, put into the E-commerce timeline. scope_creep (talk) 11:19, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator
It appears that the issue is whether to label Dan Wagner as the father of British eCommerce. Two registered editors oppose this labeling, and one unregistered editor supports it. A compromise seems to be not to put that statement in the lede paragraph, but to state in a paragraph in the body of the article that a few authors have referred to him as the father of British eCommerce. Is this compromise acceptable? I am asking each editor to respond in one paragraph within 48 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:06, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Second statements by editors
Hi, make that three registered editors are opposed to the label. I am also opposed to the suggested compromise. Only one article has referred to the subject as "the founder of the British e-commerce", https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3193955. The validity of the piece has been disputed by all the opposing editors as mentioned above. The other two pieces submitted by the filer do not refer to the subject as "the founder of the British e-commerce" and the filer is using WP:SYNTH to support this assertion. Also the evidence submitted by other editors shows this statement to not be accurate. Therefore the text should not appear in the article at all as it does not meet the high standards required of WP:BLP. Thanks. Yak shaving (talk) 19:02, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
 * It's a least four registered editors actually :) I agree with, I don't think the one source that tries to call him 'the founder of the British e-commerce' is reliable (and the extra 'the' suggests to me that it has been copied from a larger quote in a press release that said he was 'the founder of the British e-commerce company Powa' which is quite a different statement and already included in the article) and none of the other proposed sources use that wording. So I am also opposed to the suggested compromise. Thanks Melcous (talk) 22:13, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator
It appears that there is a consensus against referring to him in the lede as "the founder of British e-commerce". I'm prepared to offer that as a conclusion. Does anyone want to offer a compromise as to what can be stated in the body of the article? If no compromise is offered, then the choices are for the unregistered editor to accept that they are in a minority, or a Request for Comments. Does anyone have a compromise? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:10, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Request 3.1 by moderator
Please provide the exact link if possible, or at least the exact wording, of the Guardian quote. This is a case where the inclusion of the definite article is suspicious. Please provide the exact quote. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 28 August 2017 (UTC) By the way, this does not mean that the dispute will be resolved in favor of using the quote. That will still depend on consensus. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I will mention an annoyance of mine. I am not tolerant of editors who say "censorship" or "vandalism" in order to "win" a content dispute.  If you have been editing Wikipedia long enough to know what censorship and vandalism are and are not, you have been editing long enough not to use these terms as empty slogans.  Robert McClenon (talk) 18:21, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I am not using it to "win" the dispute but only using it as a point of argument that we should not hide info if a source has it? I do not intend it to annoy, apologies if it did. Quoting from The Guardian Newspaper in 1995 (a major national day newspaper in the UK) (first paragraph): "The story of Dan Wagner is almost a commercial fairy tale. School drop-out, 21, sees where the information super highway is headed before any one has dreamed up the phase. Ten years later, widely regarded as having invented electronic commerce, he launches ... " (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8CxFjCGp3NEWlU0ZVlfTGMwd0U/view). The article from Marketing Magazine in 1988 - seven years earlier - says (last paragraph) ''M.A.I.D has built a unique technology platform that allows articles to be purchased using computers. Mr Wagner has pioneered the technology to take payment in this way.'' (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8CxFjCGp3NEWlE2eGphSEtaajA/view). The first quote clearly "regards" him as inventor of e-commerce. The second rference basically says the same thing at a time when the actual word 'e-commerce' hadn't ever been used yet. Just limiting it to British e-commerce will be more neutral and a toned down version but I don't mind if editors agree to call him inventor of e commerce in general. A variation of my suggestion in third statement that suits everyone will be a good compromise. Not mentioning this at all would be ignoring the sources (Guardian, Marketing Magazine, China sources) and that wouldn't be right, would it...? 95.210.221.6 (talk) 06:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Third statements by editors
Robert McClenon, you are incorrect in concluding that Dan Wagner is not the founder of the British E-Commerce. As other editors disagree with it as a fact, I have already offered one compromise that he has been called as such. Maybe instead of putting it in the lede of the article, we can put it in the body of the article as a single statement. Remember, not just one source called him the founder of the British Ecommerce. The Guardian newspaper says it as well. The paper goes so far as to say "widely having regarded as having invented electronic commerce". Simple interpretation of Guardian, a reliable source, will be enough to quote this statement as fact. But, as a compromise, I suggest that we put this somewhere in the article: "Guardian and other sources credit Dan Wagner as a founder of the British E-Commerce". This is less biased to other people other editors want to regard in same. This also, correctly so, attributes the fact to the source and Wikipedia will no longer call him as founder rather wikipedia article will only report what is mentioned in the sources. Remember, one process or thing can be invented as a contributed effort by many to reach the stage as we know it. Using the phrase "a founder" allows it to be compatible with other Wikipedia articles that also credit others. It is not exclusive and the rest can be up to the reader. If we do not mention this, it would be censorship of the selective source that I use. Pretty sure Wikipedia is against censorship. I also think consensus should not be the victory of "majority" editors over sources. Consensus should be victory of correct arguments and I request the moderator to review merit of these arguments.

In short, compromise version to be put somewhere in the article: "Guardian and other sources credit Dan Wagner as a founder of the British E-Commerce". (variations for better English are welcome). 95.210.221.6 (talk) 17:02, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi Robert McClenon. You have suggested Request for Comments just so you know this has previously been attempted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dan_Wagner#Should_the_statement_.27who_has_been_called_.27the_founder_of_British_eCommerce.27_be_included_elsewhere_in_the_article.3F at that time I reached the same compromise that you have proposed of removing the statement from the lede paragraph and instead include a statement in the main body of the text. However in the near two months since the Request for Comments I have learnt alot about WP guidelines and specifically wp:blp and now believe that it would be incorrect to include the claim. Moving on to your request for the Guardian article, what the filing editor supplied on the talk page was "- The Guardian Newspaper - May 1995 https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8CxFjCGp3NEWlU0ZVlfTGMwd0U " This is a press cutting of a specific article of the subject that the filing editor has sourced, which is why it is difficult for other editors to feel confident it meets wp:V, as it does not have dates on the article and the Guardians own website only goes back to 1999. I have tried to verify by looking at the writer that the byline is creditted to Ian Katz, but even there I am unable to verify as Ian Katz was the Guardians Foreign correspondent 1994 to 1997, and it's not clear why the foreign editor would be writing about a UK businessman. Additionally performing a search of the guardian https://www.google.co.uk/search?&q=Dan+Wagner+site%3Awww.theguardian.com for Dan Wagner, produces 115 results, in not one of these is the claim that the subject is the "Founder of British e-commerce" repeated, consequently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth#.22If_it.27s_written_in_a_book.2C_it_must_be_true.21.22 I believe that the following is extremely relevant to this claim In some cases, publication in a reliable source is not sufficient to establish that a view is significant. Reliable sources may be outdated or disputed by other sources. If it was truly notable then it would be repeated in other places. Ol king col (talk) 08:47, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator
In looking over the history, it appears, first, that verification of the claim is tenuous at best, and, second, that there is a history of efforts by unregistered editors to insert promotional claims into the article. An RFC on this claim was proposed a few weeks ago, and was withdrawn to allow for a "full article review". It seems that the claims are being inserted again. This appears to be a questionable but tendentious effort to manipulate Wikipedia. At this point I am thinking that I will recommend that the article be semi-protected for an extended period of time as protection. Robert McClenon (talk) 10:29, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors
I support Moderator Robert McClenon proposal. Ol king col (talk) 11:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I too support Robert McClenon proposal. FYI, I was IP who lodged the original RFC referred above, in an effort to elicit opinions from previously uninvolved editors given the promotional history of the article. I withdrew it after receiving feedback regarding the content of the whole article (beyond the narrow scope of the rfc), allowing other editors to undertake a full review. Yak shaving (talk) 11:10, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

List of_companies_of_France
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Hi, I had listed Elior under the "List of companies in France" on the Wiki page, however i noticed that my company name was removed from the list. Please can I know why was the name removed. Also advice on what do i do to have Elior listed under the "list of companies in France".

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have not tried any other ways.

How do you think we can help?

Let us know what has to be done to have Elior listed in the "List of companies in France" wiki page

List of_companies_of_France discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Mansplaining
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I have at extent tried to reintroduce a very soft and compromise and politeness seeking portion that was part of the stable edition for over a year in a more direct form and which was recently removed by a seeming sockpuppet (called so by numerous other editors than me in noticeboard discussions) who quickly retired from Wikipedia. I have tried to welcome discussion, but the other party of editors made up heavily out of recently created accounts are at zero interest in discussion or arguing. They pretty much just tag-team edit war instead of any attempts at discussion or real concensus. Just right now again I was reverted and finally afterwards two appeared to voice their disagreement together. The only ones who really bother to participate are for the reintroduction.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried talking, I have constantly made the edit better according to any suggestions anyone has had, I have tried bringing the disputing editors in to Talk by talking to them in edit summaries

How do you think we can help?

Just be a voice of reason and clearly state to them concensus has to work by discussion and not through tag-team edit-warring.

Summary of dispute by ThinkingTwice
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I'm against the removal of the mention to the fact that this term is seen as controversial in the lead section because as per WP:Lead the section should be a summary of everything written within the article, including the fact that it has been criticised and is controversial. The blanking out of any reference to criticism in the opening section stops a casual reader from understanding a proper summary of the contents of the full article and therefore gives WP:UNDUE weight to the supporters of the term and does not reflect a balanced and WP:NEUTRAL summary of all sides. This being that Lily Rothman's and Rebecca Solnit's POV WP:Opinions have been allowed to continue yet the counter viewpoint has been removed.

When you have organisations like the BBC who clearly acknowledge in reliable sources that this word divides opinion and summarises articles with words like "sexist" and goes on to describe it as "labelled with a term which divides people just as much as it highlights inequity in society" as they do in this reference (link) on the subject. It clearly shows that there is controversy which should be acknowledged in the lead as well as in the article.

However another worrying step is the fact that after the blanking of the controversial viewpoint from the lead there has then been a concerted effort lead by User:Morty C-137 (linked here) to then try to railroaded a consensus by belittling and dismissing commentators who are mentioned in the criticism section as WP:Fringe simply because they do not have the same opinion as Morty C-137. This is an attempt to water down and remove half the section, presumably as a steppingstone for its entire removal in the future. ThinkingTwice contribs &#124; talk 06:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by TheValeyard
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Not sure what the point is here. Leave the criticism in its own section, don't clutter the lead with OpEds by some people like Cathy Young who don't like mansplaining and other feminist issues. Problem solved. TheValeyard (talk) 21:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Grayfell
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Fyddlestix
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Millahnna
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Morty C-137
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by NinjaRobotPirate
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. It's true there's been more edit warring than discussing, but this is probably a good place to have the extended discussion. I'm more-or-less agnostic about whether the content in question should be included. However, some of the objections seem surmountable. For example, one objection was that too much criticism was loaded into the lead. This can be easily solved by figuring out a better place for it. There were also issues of synthesis and weasel wording raised. This seems to be related to the "some critics say" style of writing. Maybe a compromise can be found. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:32, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Mansplaining discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
 * Note to volunteer - I suggest that this be closed as premature. The last part of this post by Mr. Magoo and McBarker on the article's talk page: represents a good attempt to discuss this dispute. However it was made today, and I think that the other editors should have a chance to respond to that post before dispute resolution is required. Cjhard (talk) 06:12, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
 * No, it was made on August 19th. The two only bothered to reply because I tried to edit it in after waiting for their reply for 10 days. Mr. Magoo (talk) 06:21, 30 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I note the comment about " the other party of editors made up heavily out of recently created accounts" - before this proceeds, the party User:ThinkingTwice needs to name these editors are parties to this, as so far I don't see any evidence for this. Seven editors have been named, one being about 4 months old and another 7, which isn't newly created or "heavily made up", and those two have edited 2 and 3 times respectively this month. Doug Weller  talk 09:01, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
 * There was one left missing from the list, also months old. And uhh, ThinkingTwice has got nothing to do with this. User Morty got into a lot of ANI trouble and specific editors started raising attention to him already having squabbles with editors from the get-go and that he knew wikicode etc. To me it also seemed suspicious, and if you sockpuppet once then of course you do it again so anyone would be super suspicious about any team-like activity. Mr. Magoo (talk) 10:14, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

But I believe this notice listing has done its work now and can be closed because it really brought in people to the talk and currently discussion is rolling well. However once this listing is closed I wonder if they care anymore after that. Mr. Magoo (talk) 10:14, 30 August 2017 (UTC)