Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 60

Novi Sad, Novi Kneževac, Srbobran, Temerin
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I've created a category titled Category:Hungarian communities in Vojvodina and added to the related articles. Many of them, however, were soon removed, and replaced by a number of badly named, new categories created by.

As pointed out on the category's talk page, it was a hasty move and eventually these categories were deleted.

I've also requested comments from experienced users, who suggested a new, probably more proper name for the category, however, this was rejected by Account2013, which led to a hiatus, as now some of the articles are in the category while other ones (from where the badly named categories were removed) are not.

Being stucked at this point, I was bold and listified these settlements and added to the articles given in the list, however, just after a short while these were also removed.

There have been a discussion, which came to a conclusion that the other user, after dismissed a proposed category name change, now also want to remove the above given list from a number of articles as well, which appears to be a whitewashing for me.

Since every attempt to find a solution was stucked at a point, I came to this place to get the issue resolved.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Brought to ANI, but it ended up nowhere.

How do you think we can help?

Declare whether adding the settlement list to the articles given in the list is appropriate.

Opening comments by Account2013
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by 79.175.95.39
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by 79.175.71.180
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Novi Sad, Novi Kneževac, Srbobran, Temerin discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
 * I've dropped a reminder on each of the other disputants listed reminding them that they need to respond. Pending them responding in 48 hours, I intend to close this filing as "Failed: Other disputants have gone idle". Hasteur (talk) 16:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Also this does not constitute the thread being opened. Hasteur (talk) 16:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

{{{{DRN archive bottom}}

Ugetsu, Sansho the Bailiff, Taboo (1999 film)
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

A number of Japanese films have different titles applied by separate American and British home media distributors. Several of these films are primarily known by their original Japanese titles in the UK and Ireland, but the article titles are the American names. I have tried numerous times to add the official titles used by the licensed distributors in the UK and Ireland to the intros of the articles. I have, however, been repeatedly reverted by a couple of users who seem to believe that the American titles of Japanese films are more official or important than the UK ones.

This is consistent with NCF, which specifies that we should include variant titles of non-English language films, especially where a "variant" is the common title in an English-speaking country.

If articles on American films such as The Avengers (2012 film) give the UK title in the opening sentence, I don't see why the UK title should not be mentioned at all in the articles on films that aren't even American.

I have tried to discuss this problem extensively on two of the relevant talk pages (Talk:Sansho the Bailiff and Talk:Ugetsu), but have met with little more than dismissive comments, and the most recent batch of reversions include somewhat offensive language I find the use of the word "orientalist" particularly offensive, and I am getting tired of trying to discuss this on talk pages with no outside input. Can someone help?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried extensively to discuss this on two of the three article talk pages, drawing attention both to evidence and policy.

How do you think we can help?

Provide objective input on whether the titles used by the officially licensed distributors in the UK and Ireland should be mentioned in the articles' intros.

Opening comments by JoshuSasori
In all three cases, the alternative titles are already in the lead section of the article, immediately after the article's title and the name of the film in Japanese text. Per MOS:FILM, details on DVD releases of the films would be more appropriate under the "release/home media" subsection of the article. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:34, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Ribbet32
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. First off, it's good dispute resolution has been opened, and I was planning on opening one myself tomorrow morning. It is certainly true the debate has gotten heated, and that I myself am partially responsible. But elvenscout has been uncivil himself and his complaints seem hypocritical and disingenuous. Here he is reverting my edits for accuracy as "bad faith", here he is expressing contempt for consensus, which is one of the WP:5P- , here he is calling a legitimate question "moaning" , here he is with argumentative nitpicking over trivial matters  and an (unintentional) false accusation of name-calling. I feel home release information can go into the home release section, and that it's not as important as the theatrical release, and besides, the full Japanese title is in the first sentences of both Ugetsu and Sansho the Bailiff. That said, when I attempted to compromise, I was reverted and told elvenscout was reversing the burden of proof- I would have to find a source refuting his claim. . Ribbet32 (talk) 04:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Ugetsu, Sansho the Bailiff, Taboo (1999 film) discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
 * Comment I will note that in the case of Taboo (1999 film), User:Elvenscout742 has not provided a source for his claim, although the others do include a source that seems valid. That said, seems unduly hostile and combative, and his summaries are borderline insulting and downright condescending: remove orientalist drivel, remove inane babbling, remove bibble-babble. That is not how we collaborate around here. § FreeRangeFrog  croak 03:24, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I strongly advise you to look through Elvenscout742's edit history. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:38, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have... You all seem to have been rather uncivil to each other. Cut it out. § FreeRangeFrog croak 03:41, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Please, examine Elvenscout742's edit history very carefully before going forward with "resolution" of this dispute. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:44, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) I must apologize for recently being uncivil. It is very difficult to maintain civility over an extended period, when JoshuSasori has been following me around numerous Japanese cinema articles and reverting or severely altering almost all of my edits, and calling me names while doing it.
 * Further, the reason I have not provided a source in the article on Taboo is that I do not know how to format a reference to a DVD cover. The UK distributor of the latter film (Momentum Pictures) does not have an online catalogue of their World Cinema Collection like Eureka (the distributor of the other two) does, but the relevant DVD cover can be seen here (I already provided the link in my edit summary when I first added it). This film is only called Gohatto in both the UK and Ireland, and I had never heard it called "Taboo" in English until I saw it on Wikipedia. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:09, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment Barring an initial statement from the other involved editor, at this point this is what I see:
 * User:Elvenscout742 insists on the insertion of alternative release names for all three films. In the case of Ugetsu and Sansho the Bailiff a source has been provided, but not for Taboo (1999 film).
 * Based on User:JoshuSasori's initial statement and User:Ribbet32's postings on the talk page(s) involved, the objection to the insertion of this information, as far as I can see, is because it is being added directly under the lede, on its own section, rather than to the Release or similar section.
 * The most substantive talk discussion I see is at Talk:Ugetsu; I will consider that as representative of what has been discussed.
 * For purposes of resolution Taboo does not have such section but presumably it could be added.
 * Everyone has been uncivil.

I will note that WP:MOSFILM does not cover this situation, but as it is only a guideline of style, it does not necessarily apply here. WP:NCF states:

"If the film has been released under different titles within the English speaking world – if for example, some English-speaking countries prefer to use the native title, or if different translations are used in different countries – use the most common title throughout, and explain the other titles in the first or second sentence, putting each of them in bold."

However, the sources quoted by Elvenscout742 cite only home media releases, not theater-wide releases, to which the spirit of the guideline refers, which means that he has not proved that the films were known that way primarily in the UK, and as no additional sources have been presented, the application of the NCF guideline above would be incorrect. Further, it is not necessary to include the alternate name of the film in only two countries, via home media release, in the introduction of the article, as it is essentially a minor detail compared to the rest of the article.

Response to Ribbet32: I must apologize for being uncivil throughout this dispute. You were unfortunate to wander in in the middle of a long dispute between JoshuSasori and myself. He has been reverting or otherwise altering almost all my edits to about a dozen articles on Japanese cinema over the past month or so, and I have been getting increasingly frustrated with it. This is why I call his reversions "bad faith" -- he has been constantly reverting all of my edits, good, questionable and bad alike, and seldom providing reasons. But I was wrong to include you in that, and I apologize. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed resolution:
 * In the case of Ugetsu and Sansho the Bailiff, JoshuSasori and Ribbet32 agree to the inclusion of this information, in the Release sections only?
 * Elvenscout742 accepts this, and agrees to stop trying to insert the unsourced claim into Taboo until such time as a reliable source acceptable to all editors is found, and added in the same manner as the other two?

I will also note that Elvenscout742 is free to create redirects, if he so wishes, with the supported alternate titles at any time, and point them to the corresponding articles.

is this agreeable to all parties? Please comment below this line. Thanks. § FreeRangeFrog croak 04:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Response I have provided a source for Taboo (the official DVD release), I just haven't provided an inline citation in the article. Additionally, WP:NCF specifically mentions home video in the opening of the section quoted above. None of these films have ever received broad cinematic release anywhere in the English-speaking world. The two older films may have been shown at small film clubs and the like, under whatever titles, but the only broad, mainstream releases are the VHS, DVD and Blu-Ray releases I have cited, all of which consistently use the same title. Taboo, by comparison, has only been released under its American title on home video, so the Japanese/British title is actually more valid under this logic (it was released in cinemas in Japan as Gohatto). Additionally, the guideline says that variant English titles need to be in the first or second sentence -- I was being cautious by denigrating them to a second paragraph, and I don't think they should be dropped out of the intro entirely, as they are the primary titles by which these films are known. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Sanshō Dayū, Ugetsu monogatari and Gohatto are all already in romanized form in the article intros. I don't see that your concern revolves around the articles not being searchable under those names, since they are already there. The only thing beyond that is for you to make a note that they are known in the UK and Ireland primarily under those names, and to do so in the Release sections using your given sources. Otherwise, I fail to see what the dispute is about. § FreeRangeFrog croak 04:34, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:NCF says that if certain English-speaking territories have seen the film released under the original Japanese title, that information should be in the first or second sentence of the article. Release information is an entirely separate matter -- I actually didn't even notice that this factoid was in the article at all until after I first added it to the intro, and I was just adding it to the intro because NCF said I should. For Sanshō, the American title is actually a bad translation to begin with, and so even when the British distributor provides a gloss of the title in English they give a different word, and then say "aka, Sansho the Bailiff". The official English title of all three of these films, and the only title by which they are known, in both the UK and Ireland, still needs to be given in the intro, as far as I see. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I see. However, the fact remains that there are enough sources to back up the titles as they stand at the moment. Would you be amenable to adding the alternate spelling for bailiff as:
 * "Sansho the Bailiff or Sansho the Steward (山椒大夫) is a 1954 film by..."
 * To the intro, plus creating redirects to each with the alternate spellings, plus the blurb in the 'Release' sections? § FreeRangeFrog croak 05:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not actually in favour of mentioning Sanshō the Steward in the article. That's the name of the most common translation of the original story, but it was never actually the release title of the film. Sanshō Dayū was. It is also the only title that the film has been released under anywhere in the UK or Ireland in the last twenty years (and has been released by two separate distributors, one being the British Film Institute, on three separate occasions, in that time). I can appreciate that the Japanese titles are already mentioned in the opening sentences, but the implication of the opening paragraphs of all three articles is that the films are primarily known by their American titles in English-speaking countries, but this is not the case. They have only ever received broad distribution in the UK and Ireland under their original titles. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:55, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually also brought this dispute up on WikiProject film before coming here, and the user who responded essentially agreed that not mentioning that one English-speaking region has its own English title for a Japanese film, and another English-speaking region prefers the original title is basically enforcing American standards on an article that actually has nothing to do with America to begin with. elvenscout742 (talk) 06:00, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I am signing off for the day and I won't be back until later tomorrow. Would you ask some folks over at the wiki project to come chime in about the issue? That would help. Just keep it civil :) § FreeRangeFrog croak 06:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd like to emphasize here that I warned the person trying to resolve this conflict to carefully read Elvenscout742's edit history before attempting a resolution. JoshuSasori (talk) 06:35, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Since I initiated this dispute resolution process JoshuSasori has continued to call me an "orientalist", and when I politely asked him to stop calling me names like this, he responded by accusing me of lying, and falsely accusing me of falsely accusing another user of calling me names. He has been calling me a "hound" for about a month, so my request was not a "lie" as he called it, and the diff he cited was disingenuous, as he knows quite well that I misread Ribbet's post as calling me "Elven boy" ("boy" might qualify as calling me names anyway, though), and when my error was pointed out to me I apologized. However, after disingenuously responding that he was not calling me names and I am a liar, he deleted my post and, ironically, called me a "troll" (twice) while doing it. He has also been blindly reverting my good faith edits, apparently just because I'm the one who made them. Entirely apart from the content of these three articles, is there anything I can do to deal with the actions of this particularly abusive user? elvenscout742 (talk) 00:47, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Of course I would agree to including that information in the release section, it is indisputably relevent to that section. Ribbet32 (talk) 04:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I accept FreeRangeFrog's proposed resolution of the dispute. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Section break
Request @elvenscout742, please stop trying to add the disputed information to the article(s) while we are in the middle of a content dispute. That would help. Second, can you use the space below this line to spell out, in detail, what it is you are proposing in terms of changes to each article? I must admit I am at a point where I'm no longer sure just what it is that you're trying to achieve. Please be as detailed as possible. Thanks. § FreeRangeFrog croak 00:57, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait, what??? What did I do? I didn't add anything to any of these articles since posting here. I posted here because JS had reverted me, and I was not planning on reverting him again until I got some outside input. The above insulting comments JoshuSasori made toward me were with reference to completely unimportant, benign edits to a separate article.
 * What I want is for the UK variant titles to be included in the intros to the articles. Your above suggested solution is basically the same as what JoshuSasori and Ribbet want, which is to bury this fact in "release information": that is why I have not accepted it. I appreciate your finally telling JoshuSasori to stop being uncivil toward me (I have been putting up with that for weeks now), but the content solution is still unacceptable, especially as it was made under the misimpression that I did not have a source for Gohatto, even though I cited it when I first posted the information. Also, given the huge number of GBooks hits for "Gohatto" that do not even mention the "English title" that currently heads the article, it is almost enough for a move request. Corresponding results for the "English title" are far fewer. (I had to mention the year, since most of the results at seem to be about how Oshima's more famous earlier films violated taboos, or give Gohatto as the primary title and mention "taboo" as a gloss.
 * I hope these misunderstandings have been cleared up now. :)
 * elvenscout742 (talk) 02:09, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, I understand you want the alternate spellings, what I'm asking is how. What would be your proposed wording, and where would you place it? That's what we need to determine since the other editors need to agree or disagree to it. So when I say "be detailed", I mean, how exactly would you propose the information be added. Excluding a separate section, which they are definitely against. § FreeRangeFrog croak 02:47, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I must admit I am at a point where I'm no longer sure just what it is that you're trying to achieve. - a good look through Elvenscout742's edit history will demonstrate what he is trying to achieve. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:03, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * For Ugetsu: Ugetsu (雨月物語) is a 1953 Japanese film directed by Kenji Mizoguchi and based on stories in Tales of Moonlight and Rain by Akinari Ueda.
 * For Sansho the Bailiff: Sansho the Bailiff (山椒大夫) is a 1954 film by Japanese film director Kenji Mizoguchi.
 * For both of the above I wouldn't mind variations like "some countries/territories" instead of "the United Kingdom", "released" instead of "known", etc. If the wording seems awkward to anyone (it doesn't to me), then perhaps we could try something like:

"Sansho the Bailiff is a 1954 film by Japanese film director Kenji Mizoguchi. It is known in the United Kingdom and some other territories under its Japanese title Sanshō Dayū (山椒大夫)."
 * For Taboo (1999 film): No change to the text for the time being, as I plan on posting an RM for the article in light of the new evidence, once this dispute is resolved. Gohatto is clearly its best-known English title.
 * elvenscout742 (talk) 03:43, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, thank you. If that's your final proposal, I will let User:JoshuSasori and User:Ribbet32 comment on whether or not they accept it. § FreeRangeFrog croak 04:05, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The text as presented above looks completely absurd. I don't know what else to say. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It might be noted that JoshuSasori has spent the last 20 minutes or so going around undermining my edits to several different articles, apparently as WP:REVENGE for this dispute resolution discussion. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:30, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I am open to compromise (the first, not the second suggested compromise) but stand by my earlier position that "released as" is more accurate than "known as." Ribbet32 (talk) 04:47, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * While I disagree with your use of the word "accurate" (neither is inaccurate, and one would need a source to demonstrate that the official release title is not the one by which the film is known), as I said above I don't mind compromising "known as" to "released as". However, I'm not sure what you mean by the "first compromise" and "second compromise": could you clarify? elvenscout742 (talk) 05:14, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Why Ugetsu and then "known in the United Kingdom"? It's not an American film, it's a Japanese film. The film was released in the US as Ugetsu as we can see from the Bosley Crowther review cited. But the reader initially has no idea that this is why the article is titled this way, so the "United States" part then also needs to be qualified. This ends up with an incomprehensible mess. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:54, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Adding a parenthetical statement that in the UK it is known by its full Japanese title doesn't really aggravate that problem. The "English title" of this film as cited in the article right now is already obviously different from the Japanese one, and it is obviously supposed to be the one by which the film is known in some major English-speaking country ("Which one could it be?" is not a likely concern). There is nothing "incomprehensible". elvenscout742 (talk) 05:14, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Coat of arms of the Palestinian National Authority, Talk:Palestinian National Authority
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview
 * (minimal involvement)
 * (minimal involvement)
 * (minimal involvement)

Here's the version from before ether of us edited it.

From my point of view, here's what happened:

This came to my attention when I found the newly created Coat of arms of the State of Palestine article (I was looking at a list of articles containing "State of Palestine" in their title). I redirected it to the old article it was split, from and started a discussion on the old articles talk page.

As you can see from the above version of the old article, it covered both the Palestinian Authority, and State of Palestine (and has done so sense 2011) before ether of us edited it. It however included two paragraphs describing the CoA, which were almost verbatim copies of each other. I removed the second paragraph, and adapted the first paragraph to describe the variation with the Arabic text between the two versions. Greyshark then restored his new article so I sent it to AFD. He then developed his new article. I then updated the old article to reflect newly found sources that showed that the PNA also used the "Palestine" version of the CoA (same version used by the State of Palestine), at least as far back as 2009  (largely by importing some text Greyshark had contributed to his new article). In my opinion, with the new RS, it contradicts RS to state or imply that the "Palestine" version is not used by the PNA.

I don't see anything wrong with my edits, I never changed the scope of the old article, I just made it less wordy, and updated it. I don't think that the unilateral recreation of "Coat of arms of the State of Palestine" (which under another title was previously redirected to the old article) narrows the scope of the old article unless there is conciseness to narrow it, and there isn't. I strongly object to Greyshark's attempt to narrow the scope of the article to just the PNA.

Greyshark has been mostly unwilling to discuss, so I'm not quite sure what his point of view is. I think he concedes it to be WP:SYNTH to use those sources to say that the PNA uses the "Palestine" version. I think he also doesn't want the old article to cover the State of Palestine, and I think he considers it to be an "illegal merge" to import content from his new "State" article to the old one. I think he also objects to being given credit in the edit summery per WP:CWW. I'm not at all sure of any of this, like I said he's been mostly unwilling to discuss.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Trying, and failing to get Greyshark to discuss on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

If I knew how to resolve this I wouldn't be coming here

Opening comments by Greyshark09
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Talk:Coat of arms of the Palestinian National Authority, Talk:Palestinian National Authority discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Talk:Campaign for_Nuclear_Disarmament
{| class="navbox collapsible collapsed" style="background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid silver; margin-top: 0.2em; " ! style="background-color: #CFC; font-size:112%;" | Closed discussion 
 * style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white; font-size:112%;" |
 * style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white; font-size:112%;" |
 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

In the article about the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, BoundaryLayer wants to include a controversial claim that its symbol, the well known peace sign, was used by the Nazis. Following lengthy discussion with BoundaryLayer, I reported the existence of the claim, citing Time magazine and Ken Kolsbun's history of the peace sign.

BoundaryLayer says it's not enough to report the controversy, the claim must be included as a fact. A Third Opinion advised that the article should remain neutral about whether the Nazis used the symbol or not. BoundaryLayer ignored that advice and added an edit saying the symbol was similar to "the insignia of the 3rd panzer Division of WWII in usage from 1941 until the end of the war. A number of experts in symbolism have noted that the CND symbol is similar to the Algiz Tudesrune, originally a Nordic runic symbol, but in present day Germany and Austria it is often called the Todesrune, the rune of death, or the inverted life rune."

This is tendentious editing. It synthesises sources that don't actually say that the CND symbol is similar to a symbol used by the Nazis. "Experts in symbolism" is also a tendentious phrase.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Third Opinion requested.

How do you think we can help?

Advise whether or not the article should endorse this claim and whether the controversy is significant enough even to be reported, and, if so, in what terms it should be reported.

Opening comments by Boundarylayer
Hello, I haven't been ignoring the debate, I've simply not logged into Wiki in a few days.

The dispute resolves over the fact that another user does, number one, not wish for readers to know what ominious symbol the republican paper was referring to, and number two, and most bizarrely, they do not wish for the opinions of experts in symbolism, nor the opinion of the former head of the CND herself, to be included in the article.

Linked below is the edit that was recently removed. None of the references provided are in dispute. I would be glad to discuss with the other user, or collaborate on an edit that they would feel appropriate, however, sadly, this does not appears to be something they wish to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Campaign_for_Nuclear_Disarmament&oldid=531168110#Organised_opposition_to_CND

Boundarylayer (talk) 06:33, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Campaign for_Nuclear_Disarmament discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Boundarylayer seems to be ignoring the discussion (see talk page of article), but I've left a comment on his talk page. Ebe 123  → report 16:13, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Boundarylayer wants to insert into the CND article a statement saying that CND’s symbol was similar to “the insignia of the 3rd panzer Division of WWII” The claim is controversial and therefore needs particularly good references, which Boundarylayer does not provide. His edit synthesises sources to produce a statement that none of them makes and on the Talk page his lengthy justifications also contain synthesis and original research.


 * The source he cites for the “Algiz Tudesrune” is Carl J. Liungman’s Book of Symbols. What Liungman actually says is that the CND sign “can be seen as composed of a Tyr rune, lengthened upward, or by the rune Y, turned upside down." He does not mention “the Algiz Tudesrune” and he does not mention the 3rd Panzer Division. (Liungman, by the way, has an amateur interest in semiotics, has not published in refereed journals and is not recognised as an "expert in symbolism" by anyone with academic credibility. His Book of Symbols appears to be vanity publishing.)


 * Boundarylayer cites Time magazine, which says of the peace sign, “some experts say it was a letter in an ancient Nordic alphabet,” but it does not mention “a Nordic runic symbol” and it does not mention the 3rd Panzer Division.


 * Peggy Duff, the ex-general secretary of CND, is said to support this connection between CND and the Nazis, but in the citation given she does nothing of the kind. She does not say that the CND symbol was the “Algiz Tudesrune” or a “Nordic” runic symbol (she describes it merely as a “runic symbol”), she does not say that “in Germany and Austria it is called the Todesrune” and she does not say that it was “the insignia of the 3rd Panzer Division.”


 * The controversial claims about the peace sign are already referred to in the article. This careless edit only adds Boundarylayer’s original research, which has nothing to do with the history of CND. Pelarmian (talk) 09:20, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Broadly speaking I think Pelarmian is right about this. --BozMo talk 11:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH violation? - The primary article for discussing the peace symbol should be (and is) the Peace Sign article. That article already contains a mention of the purported similarity to a Nazi symbol. The article that is the subject of this DRN case is about the CND. The CND article should discuss how the CND participated in creating that symbol, but details about the history of the symbol should only be in the CND article if the sources mention the CND.   I'm looking at the quotes from the sources above given by Pelarmian but I don't see a source that mentions both the CND and the Nazis. Connecting two sources together to cause the word "Nazi" to appear in the CND article is a violation of the WP:SYNTH policy. So, my question is:  Is there a reliable source that explicitly mentions both the CND and the nazis? Absent that, the Nazi material should be removed from the CND article (but the readers can still learn about it by clicking on the Peace sign link). --Noleander (talk) 16:58, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Inactivity: It's been six days since a DRN volunteer commented, and there have been no responses to their comment. If this is still an active dispute, please comment so we can get the discussion moving; otherwise, I'll close this discussion after 24 hours. &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 01:37, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Dealing first with Pelarmian's claims, as we cannot progress until these have been put to bed. Pelarmian writes-
 * The source he cites for the “Algiz Tudesrune” is Carl J. Liungman’s Book of Symbols. What Liungman actually says is that the CND sign “can be seen as composed of a Tyr rune, lengthened upward, or by the rune Y, turned upside down." He does not mention “the Algiz Tudesrune” and he does not mention the 3rd Panzer Division.
 * (Liungman, by the way, has an amateur interest in semiotics, has not published in refereed journals and is not recognised as an "expert in symbolism" by anyone with academic credibility. His Book of Symbols appears to be vanity publishing.)


 * In the reference below, which Pelarmian has mischaracterized, the author does refer to the CND symbol as a symbol that can be composed of the upside down life rune/todesrune. The source also goes on to correctly state that- In Germany and Austria (the upside down life rune) is often called the Todesrune, the rune of death, or an inverted life rune. Incredulously however, according to Pelarmian, this reference “does not mention the Algiz Tudesrune[sic]”.
 * If anyone takes a quick look at the short paragraph in the reference below, they would find that Liungman does indeed mention the todesrune, contrary to what Pelarmian would have you believe.
 * http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/24/247.html


 * Pelarmian then also tries to denigrate Carl Liungman's work by stating his book appears to be vanity publishing and that he is not an expert in symbolism.
 * This is another mischaracterization. Here is a favorable review of one of Liungman's books titled Dictionary of Symbols. Stanley P. Hodge, Ball State Univ. Lib., Muncie, Ind.-
 * ”This is an authoritative four-part history, dictionary, and index of non-iconic symbols...” http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Symbols-Norton-Paperback-Liungman/dp/0393312364/ref=la_B001JXK2I2_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358410972&sr=1-1


 * Yet another favorable review by the American Libraries association - ”This book will certainly become one of the key sources for tracing symbols and their meanings.”


 * And even further favorable reviews for Liungman's updated works - There is nothing else quite like this well-researched work. -- Library Journal, 1991.
 * Symbols -- Encyclopedia of Western Signs and Ideograms.
 * http://www.amazon.com/Symbols-Encyclopedia-Western-Signs-Ideograms/dp/9197270504/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358414394&sr=1-1


 * However Pelarmian would have you believe that Liungman, is not an expert in symbolism, and his works are but vanity publications? Granted, he is not a semiotics PhD if such a post even existed, but without question his works are authoritative and well received.


 * The second claim by Pelarmian that is another mischaracterized is that he writes - Boundarylayer wants to insert into the CND article a statement saying that CND’s symbol was similar to “the insignia of the 3rd panzer Division of WWII” The claim is controversial and therefore needs particularly good references, which Boundarylayer does not provide.


 * This is misleading and out of context. I do not wish to insert into the article that the CND symbol is similiar to the insignia of the 3rd panzer division. The very republican newsletter reference Pelarmian provided, states as much. You will find my edit was not out of the blue, as Pelarmian seems to be suggesting. It was simply a continuation of his edit, which is here in italics - A national Republican newsletter was reported to have "noted an ominous similarity to a symbol used by the Nazis in World War II" http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909670,00.html#ixzz28e1dbekl. Upon reading his edit, one naturally asks, well what symbol was the author of this republican newsletter actually talking about? The answer to this is of course the SS insignia I reference below and also the 3rd panzer division. So my follow up edit was simply a continuation of his, I merely tacked onto the end of his edit the following statement to give readers the information about what the ominous symbol this newsletter was talking about - specifically the insignia of the 3rd panzer Division of WWII in usage from 1941 until the end of the war.


 * You will see that I wasn't saying it, it was the republican newsletter that did. So just in the interests of completeness I included the answer to the obvious question readers would have, when they finished reading Pelarmians edit. Readers would say to themselves- ok, but which symbol was noted? What specific symbol was this republican newsletter actually referring to? Pelarmian obviously does not agree that this pertinent follow up information about what symbol the republican newsletter was talking about should be included, I understand that, and we can discuss that! However I ask you to stop mischaracterizing my edit. As it wasn't me who out of the blue just shoved the statement onto the CND page, it was merely what the republican newsletter, that you yourself wrote about, stated.


 * Getting back to the issue that Pelarmian appears to be trying to argue, that there is no nordic runic origin to the CND. I do not understand how they could have this position as it is patently undeniable that the CND symbol has its origins in nordic runic symbolism.
 * As Peggy Duff, general secretary of CND between 1958 and 1967, stated that the CND symbol was previously a runic symbol representing 'the death of man. It is not synthesis to link her quoted reference to the death rune/Algiz/todesrune, as she herself was referring to the death rune/todesrune when she spoke of a runic symbol representing the death of man. The only runic symbol that is similar to the CND symbol and that also represents the 'death of man' is the algiz/toten rune, a Nordic runic symbol for the death of man.
 * So it is plain to see that she was referring to this specific Nordic rune when she made that statement. Pelarmian's attempts at hand waving this statement away, made by none other than the former general secretary of the CND is bewildering, not least of which because the statement has been sitting on the peace symbol page for ages now without contention.
 * Here is Peggy Duffs original explanation of the origins of the CND symbol-
 * http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ratVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EeEDAAAAIBAJ&dq=peace-symbol&pg=3767%2C2358294


 * Similarly, Gerald Holtom the designer of the symbol itself likewise stated that the inside of the CND symbol also represented the death of man.
 * http://www.fpif.org/articles/a_sign_of_the_times
 * This explanation of the symbolism comes from Rudoph Koch's The Book of Signs, which is almost certainly where Holtom got his inspiration.


 * It should now be obvious that there is ample amounts of uncontroversial references to support that the CND symbol was formed from a Nordic runic symbol representing the death of man. We have Peggy Duff and Carl Liungman stating as much. With Holtom reiterating Koch's Book of signs.


 * Exacerbatingly, these very strong references are not included in the CND page due to Pelarmians concerted efforts.


 * Moving on now to the related, but seperate issue, of why the Nazis are commonly linked with the CND. I'll probably lose some of you on the way with this and I probably should not have even opened this can of worms, but I had thought that hey, wouldn't it be great to finally explain the link between the two, to cut down on all these wild conspiracy theories? Maybe I was being too optimistic that this could be done. Nevertheless, a quick look at the symbol on the following ADL page should quickly demonstrate why people would be forgiven for often linking SS(nazi) symbols and the CND symbol.
 * From the anti-defamation league ''The "Life Rune" symbol was also used by the Nazis on the graves of SS soldiers signifying the soldier’s date of birth (while the "Death Rune," an upside-down "Life Rune," was used to signify date of death).
 * http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/groups_volksfront.asp


 * Noleander to answer your question, The Times magazine article mentions both the CND and the Nazis. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909670,00.html#ixzz28e1dbekl I have consistently agreed with it that the similarity in the two symbols is not evidence of a conspiracy, merely a case of common symbolic heritage. Importantly however, as also noted in the times magazine article- ''some experts say the CND symbol was a letter in an ancient Nordic alphabet.
 * As it stands now, the CND page includes neither Peggy Duff's explanation nor the Times factual statement. I have still not been furnished with an answer why?


 * Moreover Noleander, It is not that the CND symbol is purported to be similar to a Nazi symbol.
 * As the CND symbol is similar, that is obvious to see, according to both the designer and a former CND general secretary, the CND symbol directly derives its origins from a rune that signifies the death of man. These Nordic runes happen to also have been extensively used by the Nazi SS prior to the CND, which the runes article correctly points out. Furthermore, these runes are still widely used by Neo-nazi groups, and evidence of which is supplied below by the Anti-defamation league.


 * So clearly, the SS symbols and the CND have the same -death rune-/todesrune origin, but that is where the link ends, can we not see eye to eye on this?


 * The two nordic runes to signify life and death are still in use by Nazi extremists.
 * With the symbol in the following ADL page, again, being identical to the CND symbol.
 * http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/groups_national_alliance.asp


 * Another source that states the same thing as the ADL is the book - Hitler Youth, 1922-1945: An Illustrated History By Jean-Denis Lepage. On page 92: The toten rune/todesrune was the symbol of death used on SS documents and graves to indicate the date of death.


 * Again for a deeper insight into the vast(and weird) use of Nordic runes by the Nazi SS have a look at this good page- Runic insignia of the Schutzstaffel.


 * Why is Pelarmian (A) so opposed to recognizing the origin of the CND symbol as the death rune, a nordic runic symbol representing the death of man, when Peggy Duff former head of th CND stated as much? and (B) opposed to recognizing that both the CND and the SS death symbol have the same todesrune origin?


 * What reference does he not agree with? I can understand that (B) the common symbolic heritage link between the CND & nazis lacks a strong reference, however it is obvious, that both the CND+death rune references and the Nazi+death rune references are water tight, there is strangely though no reputable CND+Nazis references(there probably are somewhere, but they're hidden under a mountain of conspiracy junk). Nonetheless Pelarmian's objections to (A) above is untenable. The CND symbol has its origins in the death rune. Peggy Duff said it, so I don't even understand why this is up for debate.

Unless of course you wish to argue that she was talking about some other rune, and not the death rune when she said the inner part of the CND symbol takes its origins from a runic symbol for the death of man? As this appears to be waht you are doing. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ratVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EeEDAAAAIBAJ&dq=peace-symbol&pg=3767%2C2358294


 * Boundarylayer (talk) 16:30, 16 January 2013 (UTC)


 * As Boundarylayer is the only editor who wants a reference to the "death rune", I have suggested on the Talk page that it's now up to him to suggest a compromise. Pelarmian (talk) 14:59, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Pelarmian, it's difficult for us (meaning DRN volunteers) to help you resolve this if you're having discussion elsewhere. Do you think there's anything else to be gained here, or do you think we should close this case? &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 19:25, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * After all, I doubt if it can be resolved here. Pelarmian (talk) 21:32, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


 * }

Template talk:Nazism_sidebar#Parteiadler.3F
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Dispute over template design. Two users support a new template, two users do not support the proposed template. Divided consensus. Frustration and distrust between users has become too high for a collaborative resolution between the four users there for the past few days. Now there are five users there with User:Collect arriving, he/she has not yet decided on what should be used.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have asked for all users involved to work to write a Request for Comment that would include the template with the flag that I supported, the template proposed by DIREKTOR, and other templates. This proposal was rejected by DIREKTOR.

I proposed an alternative template using the overall template DIREKTOR designed, but using an angled swastika rather than the Nazi eagle. I believed the angled swastika alone was simpler in appearance. This proposal was rejected by DIREKTOR.

How do you think we can help?

Outside intervention to find a means to resolve the dispute. Frustration and distrust between users is too high for a collaborative resolution. Outside assistance will be needed to provide guidance on what can be done to break the divided consensus of 2 in favour of DIREKTOR's proposal and 2 opposed. For the past few days it has been 4 users involved, recently today the user Collect arrived today and made a comment on the matter, Collect has not explicitly endorsed any proposal though has said what he favours more, now 5 users involved as shown above.

Opening comments by DIREKTOR
This DRN thread, as well as the previous ANI attempt to have me sanctioned, have deliberately been posted after I notified the user that I am on vacation and unable to post (after one week of pointless discussion over this silly non-issue). This is just the latest in a series of provocations posted by R-41, in his campaign to have his own images remain in use on templates. I cannot participate here nor defend my position (which is no accident), and can only call for a postponement of several weeks. ¨¨¨¨

Opening comments by Frietjes
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by PRODUCER
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Collect
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

I find the flag to be the "most common" symbol. The Hakenkreuz is used by too many other groups to be a valid single choice. The eagle is pretty, but also used in military items. Thus if it were a "vote" the flag wins. Personally, I think a more immutable symbol would be the "Arbeit Macht Frei" entrance. Collect (talk) 20:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Template talk:Nazism_sidebar#Parteiadler.3F discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hi, I'm a DRN volunteer. I've dropped notifications on Frietjes and PRODUCER's talk pages reminding them that they need to respond to the statement. If they do respond soon, I'm inclined to open and suspend the discussion until DIREKTOR is available to defend their position. If they don't respond I'm inclined to leave the status quo ante of this in place. I'd like to express my disappointment at Frietjes, DIREKTOR, and R-41 for bulk reversions that had unintended consequences to the styling of the template and for continuing to revert rather than stop and explain the viewpoint. I'd also like to express my disappointment at R-41 for demanding a RfC on the issue but not starting it himself. This thread is not open yet for comments. Hasteur (talk) 15:28, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Beeblebrox added tags based on consensus of a discussion. But he didn't add these tags. It was added by Obi2canibe. He hasn't contributed to content and he state he is not an expert on this subject. Unethically (refactored by volunteer; on this board, we will assume good faith.) he has done this edit to mark first page as an orphan. Introducing of tags was objected and edit war was started since last September.

Currently there is no on going dispute on content. But there is a dispute on tags. Obi2canibe not specifically says what are the issues in the article. But they feel this page need tags. So how do I improve the page ? This dispute was reported several days back in here. But it was ended saying this is not correct location. But two administrators pointed this is the correct location. I think Qwyrxian is not a party of the dispute. But I adding him too since I am not 100% sure. Himesh84 10:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Obi2canibe was asked to specifically state issues in the article from the talk page discussions.

How do you think we can help?

Obi2canibe has to specifically tell what are the issues in the article to put tags/improve page or not introduce tags.

Opening comments by Obi2canibe
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Qwyrxian
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I'm on wikibreak, but a quick look at the article tp will show that obi2canibe has clearly explained all but one ortwo of the tags, and i have as well. I don't know what more Himesh wants. Qwymobile (talk) (alt. account of Qwyrxian) 10:25, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Opening comments by volunteer Sleddog116 (talk): Okay - I've read a little of the background of this case and am going to do what I can to help. First, let me open by saying I will keep my input limited until all involved users have had a chance to make their opening statements. (Obi2canibe has not made his opening remarks yet.) I have looked at the relevant discussions on the talk page of the article in question, and based on how heated these discussions seem to have become, I want to make a few things clear from the beginning. First (as the box at the top of the page says), this noticeboard is not the place to comment on user conduct issues, and any such discussion will be refactored or completely removed. Also, going further along that line, even commenting on content should be limited to improving the project. We do not make judgment calls on whether someone's edits are "lies" or "unethical" because that does nothing but inflame tempers. This is a place to work out solutions. It is not a place to air our frustrations (with edits or editors).

Also, to Himesh84, one small technical note: so that we have clarity, when you sign your posts, please do so with four tildes ( ~ ). This makes it easier for everyone here to access you page and talk page quickly, which may be needed in some cases.

And one last housekeeping note: I would like to remind everyone involved (without singling out anyone in particular) that this article is under discretionary sanctions based on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive231#Discretionary sanctions on caste articles and more|this decision]] and logged here.

Now, that being said, I would like to begin by addressing the point that Qwyrxian made. Himesh, the "orphan" tag is purely a technical one. It cannot, by nature, be "unethical." An "orphaned page" is a page that no other articles link to. If no other pages link to this page, then it is, by definition, an orphaned page, which means that the tag would indeed be needed until that is no longer the case.

Any other content tags (such as the NPOV tag, etc.) are there because one or more editors feels there is a problem. The fact that this issue has come to DRN is proof that such tags are needed for the time being. However, rather than focusing on the tags, I suggest we focus on the problems themselves. The main contention is that the article is not neutral. However, there are other tags which have been disputed. The original AfD discussion in question (which took place nearly two months ago) has no bearing on the maintenance tags. Qwyrxian and Obi2canibe, why do you feel like this article needs the tags in question? I will leave the discussion there for now; we can generate more thorough discussion once Obi2canibe makes his opening remarks. Sleddog116 (talk) 19:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Appreciate your feedback. But I can't agree on few of your points. So it is better if you can instruct me on following things
 * I know what an orphan is. But this article is linked from Sri Lanka page since long time. Obi2canibe can't judge Sri Lanka page doesn't need link to Ethnic conflict in SL which was there for long period only on him self . Until all agreed to remove the link to this page, this can't be an orphan. I can use Obi2canibe approach to mark page as orphan can be used mark any wikipage orphan. If I removed all links to Sri Lankan Tamil page by definition I can mark it as an orphan. Isn't that unethical ?
 * If I introduced lot of tags to a good page,start a edit war and get it to DRN, will it be an absolute proof tag is required ? I don't think so. My personal idea is requirement of the tags must be clarified from the content, because tags are there to stop readers get misleading by the content.
 * If content tags (such as the NPOV tag, etc.)can introduced because one or more editors feels there is a problem, then anyone (even beginners) can add tags to any page in the wikipedia. Is that what you are saying ?
 * About neutrality - If page missed any crucial events of the conflict then someone can say not neutral. But it should be fair and expert call. They should at least name what kind of major events missed from the page. Then we can include those events. But it is not happening. Only they says is this is not neutral. It only show he is not an expert to comment about the neutrality of the article. Himesh84 15:33, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You were instructed to sign with tildes. Since this very simple instruction went unheeded I simply do not feel you are responding to the volunteer's instructions. I also note that of the two other participants none have agreed to participate. Closing this dispute with great thanks to Sleddog116. In the future, please wait until after all have made their opening statements before opening the DR/N for discussion.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:05, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If content tags (such as the NPOV tag, etc.)can introduced because one or more editors feels there is a problem, then anyone (even beginners) can add tags to any page in the wikipedia. Is that what you are saying ?
 * About neutrality - If page missed any crucial events of the conflict then someone can say not neutral. But it should be fair and expert call. They should at least name what kind of major events missed from the page. Then we can include those events. But it is not happening. Only they says is this is not neutral. It only show he is not an expert to comment about the neutrality of the article. Himesh84 15:33, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You were instructed to sign with tildes. Since this very simple instruction went unheeded I simply do not feel you are responding to the volunteer's instructions. I also note that of the two other participants none have agreed to participate. Closing this dispute with great thanks to Sleddog116. In the future, please wait until after all have made their opening statements before opening the DR/N for discussion.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:05, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You were instructed to sign with tildes. Since this very simple instruction went unheeded I simply do not feel you are responding to the volunteer's instructions. I also note that of the two other participants none have agreed to participate. Closing this dispute with great thanks to Sleddog116. In the future, please wait until after all have made their opening statements before opening the DR/N for discussion.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:05, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Battle of Jamrud
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The result of the battle is the topic of concern. I have presented multiple university sources that state three different results: Indecisive, Afghan victory and Sikh victory.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?


 * Talk page(blatant sourcing, quoting)
 * Asking for advice on Project Military History
 * Taking suggestions from Project Military History and copy/pasted them to Battle of Jamrud talk page

How do you think we can help?

We need a clarification to determine if we need to use what ALL university sources state about the result of a battle or to ignore specific university sources.

Opening comments by Devanampriya
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

'''Hello, ''' My position is that the military result for the Battle of Jamrud infobox should list this as a sikh victory for the following reasons:


 * Jamrud fort guarded the strategic khyber pass, and was in Sikh possession
 * The afghans attacked jamrud fort with the objective of retaking it
 * The afghans failed to take jamrud fort--having been defeated by the sikh relief force
 * The afghans retreated to afghan territory.
 * The afghan casualties were disproportionate

The military history sources that provide detailed accounts of this battle confirm this, as opposed to the passing mention in non-military history reliance offered by opposing party.

My concern on this article is that the obfuscatory approach offered by opposing party will open a pandora's box of revisionism for clear results on other military history articles on wikipedia. It will also prevent layreaders from getting a quick snapshot of what happened—forcing them to read long relativist accounts which salve wounded national pride instead of clearly stated facts.

By simply reviewing tactical military objectives and results, third parties can ascertain whether battles were victories, defeats, or stalemates/inconclusive. The results should be even more obvious when involving military fortifications like jamrud, where possession is 10/10ths the law. But here the results were conclusive: The afghans failed in their attempt to take jamrud fort, the fort remained in sikh hands, and as a result, afghans were unable to take and hold territory again in India. But in spite of good faith attempt at discussion, opposing party avoided answering the question and seeks to impose a minimization without good faith discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Jamrud#Battle_of_Jamrud

This battle was the culmination of a long war between sikhs and afghans, that consistently rolled back Afghan power in India as well deprived them of their winter capital at peshawar. Jamrud fort controlled the strategic khyber pass, making possession of it by the afghans necessary to retake territory in India. The sikhs decisively defeated this attempt to retake the fort, and the afghans retreated. Between the heavier casualties on the afghan side, as well as their failure to achieve the primary military objective of taking the fort, this should be a very clear sikh victory to any dispassionate third party.

In sum, this dispute can be very easily resolved by answering the obvious questions:

'''1.what was the military objective? '''

2.was this objective achieved?

Thank you for your time.

Devanampriya (talk) 04:45, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Theman244
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Hi, I agree with the position taken by the user Devanampriya due to stated points above by the user. My position on Battle of Jamrud is not very different from Devanampriya. First i think Kansas Bear taken this decision in hurry to refer this case to Dispute Resolution(here), but i am fyn with this. On the other hand, Takabeg claim that this was a Afghan victory because Hari Singh Nalwa was killed during or after(injured in the battle) battle is baseless. This was not first time that Military General was killed during or after(due to injuries) the battle. Jamrud Fort was in possession of Sikh Army before and after battle and also there was no territorial change in the boundary of Sikh Empire and at last not to forget Afghan retreat. Thanks Theman244 (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Battle of Jamrud discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Hello. I see that no volunteer has - as of yet - decided to hear and decide on this dispute. I will therefore do so unless there is an objection voiced by any party to this proceeding.

Preliminarily, I must state that I can do very little until all parties have posted opening statements and until I have read them. In order to keep this case moving swiftly, and to ensure that it does not clog up the dispute resolution noticeboard, I am going to ask the parties to post opening statements by Thursday 24 January 2013. I will not permit individual replies to individual posts. Rather, parties may write "consolidated" replies - i.e. the user "theman244" may write a reply to the opening statements of other parties as part of his reply post - individual replies to individual posts will make it difficult to keep track of this discussion.

Should parties object to this suggestion, please inform me, and suggest a better method.

--The Historian (talk) 16:58, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If no one has made opening comments within 72 hours, I will be closing this DR/N and ask that it be refiled on the 24th if there is still a concern.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

As I understand this dispute, it is about what side won the battle? There can be only one winner or it is a draw. This needs to sorted out. Please begin by discussing what the relevant sources are claiming. Please be aware that all non RS sources will be dismissed as well as all non experts in this area. Note: historians will not be excluded for not being military experts.

As a volunteer at DR/N, I request that every source discussed be directly linked or quoted in a text box using the parameters which will show as:

You may link the source and use the quote box if you desire.--Amadscientist (talk) 06:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I had tentatively proposed placing Afghan victory(with the Gulzad, Adamec and Roberts sources), Sikh victory(with Docherty and Hasrat sources) and Stalemate(with the Norris source). Anymore sources that pass Reliable Sources could be used to add to either Afghan victory, Sikh victory or Stalemate. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:04, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Let me be more specific. I said sources that are discussed. I did not mean for editors to just drop off sources with no discussion, but this may be clear enough. Also....could the editor that placed this here please sign the post.--Amadscientist (talk) 20:44, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

OK well, this is quickly going stale. I will be closing in 24 hrs unless further discussion is created. The above sources do little without discussion. It is the obligation of those editors invloved to discuss this dispute. Without any further input I feel this should be kicked back to the talkpage.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:57, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Response to Kansas Bear 1:

I'd like to begin the discussion proper by noting that it might be important to consider that the weight due to books on military history (rather than military experts themselves) may deserve to be higher for the simple reason that they are concerned with military results, and how those results were achieved, especially since the dispute is focused on the military result of the battle (i.e. who won and why?). It's less a matter of privileging a set of experts than making sure the authors themselves actually analyzed what happened rather than verbatim reprint the official claim. It's a question of analysis vs. blind reprint.

When historians or cultural biographers write on a country, they may simply regurgitate primary sources (i.e. Official Afghan Chronicle or Official Sikh Chronicle) instead of actually analyzing whether the sources were accurate. We know the countries/empires frequently like to declare victory even if it was a loss for propaganda purposes--The China-Vietnam war is an example. I would also advocate that weight be assigned on the basis of whether there was a mere passing mention of a battle vs. an extended description or analysis. I would also recommend that collective recency of sources be considered as well.

Here is the breakdown of sources:

Extended Account of Battle

Result: Sikh Victory Extended discussion of battle, with background, phase by phase recounting of battle, as well as the end result with implications. This is by far the most detailed account of the battle we have available, and spans over two pages (in comparison to a mere sentence or two in the sources provided by opposing party). It is also the most recent 1st edition of source we have available.(Source)
 * Paddy Docherty, The Khyber Pass, Page 186-87, 1st edition Year: 2007

Entire paragraph on the battle with entry specifically focused on the battle of Jamrud. Clearly states that Akbar was defeated outside Jamrud, raised the siege, and withdrew, with Sikhs keeping fort. This is also specifically a military history book, focused on battles, sieges, and their outcomes.(Source)
 * Tony Jaques, Dictionary of Battles and Sieges, P.485, Year: 2007,


 * By Dr. H.S. Singha, Sikh Studies, Book 6,P.61, Year: 2005

Several paragraphs on the battle. Gives the order of battle and specifies the Sikh possession of the fort and the circumstances of Hari Singh's passing (like Nelson, was mortally wounded, not killed on the field). (Source)

Passing mention of Battle:

Result: Sikh Victory

"For the Afghans the killing of Hari Singh Nalwa turned the defeat at Jamrud into a victory. Much as Dost Mohammed tried to claim the battle of Jamrud as an Afghan victory (he heaped public honours upon his son), nothing could stop the ...."????(Source)
 * Khushwant Singh, A History of the Sikhs: 1469-1838, Oxford University Press, p227;Year: 2004.

It’s clear from the text that Khushwant Singh questions the afghan ruler's claim of victory, having state that “he tried to claim the battle of Jamrud as an Afghan victory”.

Result: Afghan Victory "In 1837 Dost's son, Akbar Khan, led an Afghan army to victory at Jamrud. Akbar, however, did not followup his success with an advance to Peshawar, and the city remained in Sikh hands."(Source)
 * By Jeffery J. Robert, The Origins of Conflict in Afghanistan, P.4, Year: 2003

Only has one sentence on the entire battle. Merely says afghan victory—doesn’t say why. Also says no advance on Peshawar, lending credence to possibility of afghan defeat. If this was a victory--why not go on to recapture other lost territories in India--especially the old Afghan capital of Peshawar.

"The history of the delimitation of the Durand Line development of the Afghan State (1838-1898), University of Wisconsin--Madison, p62;"1837 they fought a pitched battle at Jamrud in which the Afghan forces were victorious."(Source)
 * Zalmay Ahmad Gulzad, The history of the delimitation of the Durand Line development of the Afghan State (1838-1898), P.62, Year: 1991

Two sentences on battle. Does not explain what happened, or why it was victory based on military results. Merely said death of hari singh demoralized sikh regiments, so the afghans claimed victory. Editorializes without stating bald fact of what happened—and most importantly—who retained possession of fort.

"He defeated the Sikhs at the Battle of Jamrud (1837) and assumed the title “Commander of the Faithful” (Amir-ul-Mu'minin)" (Source)
 * Ludwig W. Adamec's Historical Dictionary of Afghanistan, First Edition Year: 1991.

Only passing mention of battle in account of Sardar Mohammed Akbar entry--merely repeats the claim in 2 separate phrases elsewhere.

Result: Inconclusive/Unclear ""At the battle of Jamrud neither side could honestly claim a victory, but the Sikhs suffered severely at the hands of the Afghan horsemen, and they lost one of their king's favorite generals, Hari Singh"(Source)
 * James A. Norris, First Afghan War: 1838-42, Year: 1967

Only has one sentence, and says inconclusive. Also, older publication--dating back to the late 1960s.

"The doubtful Sikh victory at Jamrud in 1837 had made it clear to Ranjit Singh that policy of hatred and repression in the northwestern frontier so far pursued had failed in its objective." ((Source)
 * Bikrama Jit Hasrat,Life and times of Ranjit Singh, p137, Year: 1977.

Unclear how this should be read--says "sikh victory" but also qualifies it as "doubtful". Hence in the unclear category.

By raw count, we have:
 * 4 mentions of sikh victory/afghan defeat (3 extended accounts of battle; 1 passing mention),
 * 3 mentions of afghan victory/sikh defeat (all in passing mention and/or out of context), and
 * 2 inconclusive/unclear (also in passing mention).

By tally alone, Sikh victory is favored. This is further reinforced by the fact that 2 of the Sikh victory sources give extended accounts of the battle that actually explain why it was a Sikh victory. These 2 (of 4 favorable sources) were also the most recent and most weighty (coming from objective (non-indian, non-afghan) authors) and were specifically focused on the topic of Military History.

In contrast, opposing party favors 3 sources that only have a sentence or two on the battle, no explanation for the result, and one of which has an Afghan author.

The lopsided nature of the source weight, due to the analysis as well as length of the respective accounts, alone should demonstrate the correct outcome. Most of all, the fact that only the sikh victory sources give clear and credible military reasons for the victory shows how clearcut the npov resolution to this dispute should be. One of the sources actually mentions that the Afghans were simply attempting to put on a brave face for their loss (honours), by spinning it as a victory perhaps due to the subsequent death of Hari Singh--even the though the battle was over the fort. Thus, it is totally possible that the sources claiming afghan victory were simply regurgitating the official afghan claims rather than actually analyzing the battle.

NPOV as clearly written doesn’t mean WP: undue weight. When there’s a majority of sources in favor, (by quantity, quality, and recency), that should be given pride of place. Outdated or non-analyzed/minority assertions can be included in the main article (rather than infobox) as a “see also”—this comes directly from the NPOV page.

Due to all these factors, both on the basis of secondary source tally as well as secondary source analysis (what was the military objective, why was this a victory?), the academic weight far and away favors the Sikh Victory result.

Devanampriya (talk) 07:15, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Response to Devanampriya Tony Jaques has a Phd in Communication, does not work as a historian nor does he have a degree in an historical field. Just because he authored a book on military history does not mean he is an authority on military history or even battles for that matter.

Paddy Docherty was educated at Oxford University, where he also won a Blue for boxing and was Junior Dean of Brasenose College. Born in Scotland and raised in Gloucestershire in the west of England, Paddy has also lived in Africa and the Middle East, and currently lives in Prague. He has been a ranch hand, chef, oil & gas consultant, internet entrepreneur, shipbroker and investment banker. I see nothing about his expertise in history, Sikhs or Afghans.

Dr. H.S. Singha. I found nothing online concerning his area of expertise. He has authored numerous books about Sikhs & Sikhism(as a cultural biographer). Perhaps Devanampriya, should look at Dr. Singha's opinion(s) concerning the battle with his own advice;"When historians or cultural biographers write on a country, they may simply regurgitate primary sources (i.e. Official Afghan Chronicle or Official Sikh Chronicle) instead of actually analyzing whether the sources were accurate.

Unfortunately, Devanampriya has latched onto the idea that providing sources written by individuals with no formal training(as historians) or cultural biographers will allow him to suppress other sources. He prefers this over university sources, why? Instead of deciding for ourselves the result of the battle, we should take what universities have stated regardless of "passing mention" or "result" and provide the readers with all the reliably sourced information. We, as editors, are not here to determine the result of this battle. We are here to supply reliable sources to write an article. Anyone can search for Sikh victory at Jamrud, but how many university sources support this? How many support a different outcome from the battle? Why can we not indicate what every university source, we can find, states? Since Devanampriya is worried about cultural bias determining the result of the battle then by default we should rely on university sources not books written by non-specialists or cultural biographers. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I have to agree. No disrespect for the editor but they have not demonstrated their view ell. Khushwant Singh is neither an historian or expert in military history. A novelist and journalist. I am certain we have already discussed the author at WP:RS/N. Also, clearly the editor is using only the google snippet and not just directing us to a link. This is not RS for use here. In regards to Jeffery J. Roberts I don't see his credentials as a historian or military expert. I will continue to look through the "passing mentions" but so far, they are very weak.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:29, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment by uninvolved AndyTheGrump. I think that at least one contributor here has shown a fundamental misunderstanding regarding how the dispute resolution noticeboard works, and how Wikipedia works. We must not make a decision here as to 'who won the battle of Jamrud'. That is not for us to do. That is for reliable sources to decide. If there is a significant disagreement amongst sources, we must report that too. As to which sources are reliable (in Wikipedia terms), clearly academics working within the field are preferred, though other sources may be useful too - if there are questions about the reliability individual sources, they can be raised at the Reliable sources/Noticeboard. What we should be aiming to do though is represent accurately the balance of opinions amongst those qualified to comment, rather than to make a definitive assertion one way or another. Battles are not soccer matches, the 'winners' are not always self-evident - and in unforgiving territory like the Khyber pass, it is entirely possible for both sides to come out as losers... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:35, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Reply to Kansas Bear, 2

Let the record show that Kansas Bear has an unfortunate record of selective citation. The admins now have evidence of his characterization of the above authors; however, he conveniently left out certain facts:

1. Paddy Docherty- Kansas Bear wrote this " I see nothing about his expertise in history". However, Kansas Bear conveniently omitted this fact clearly available on Docherty's About the Author Page: "Paddy Docherty graduated from Oxford University...his graduate research into British imperial history led him to the North West Frontier and he travelled to Pakistan and Afghanistan in the winter of 2003 to research The Khyber Pass, his first book." (Source)

But I suppose Kansas Bear omitted this fact because that would merely have been fluff and "original research", so he chose an alternate, less credible link to suit his characterization--much as he did on the Battle of Jamrud page.

2. Tony Jaques-This author's "Dictionary of Sieges and Battles", cited for this dispute, was peer-reviewed by historians by an editorial board of academics at well-known institutions such as University College London. (Source), see p.3. In addition, his educational background is in Political Science and Journalism--hardly unrelated to field of military history and geopolitics (Source)

3. H.S. Singha--Is Director of a University/Institute of Management and Technology(Source), a University Professor, was the former Chairman of the Indian Central Secondary Education Board, and was a former Indian Army Colonel (Source) --I suppose Kansas Bear will now say that Army Colonel Professors are "non-specialists" and have no knowledge of or capability to analyze military history...

This is the problem when wiki editors only engage in surface level research and mischaracterize/omit instrumental facts that end up actually being adverse to their questionable conclusions. Singha is clearly not a layperson, applied a military mind to a military historical matter, and is university level professor.

It is precisely this type of fact-omission, poor research, and selective-reading by Kansas Bear that has made it difficult to help him understand what is required for an accurate article. Why omit the fact that Paddy Docherty (who has the most comprehensive account and analysis of the battle) was an Oxford graduate student who researched british imperial history?--I suppose Kansas Bear will now conveniently backtrack and say he never came across...the about the author webpage...of the very first google hit for "Paddy Docherty".

It's one thing if he doesn't comment in good faith on the talk page, but it's quite another to prejudice the facts at an admin moderated dispute resolution. The irony is that the admin actually had previously noted that military experts weren't the only ones who would be considered. All I referred to was providing Due Weight to works that are actual military histories--in that they focus on the actual details of the battle, analyze them, and explain the conclusion.

Further, in my comprehensive list of sources, I didn't even include the "Proceedings from the Punjab University" source even though it was favorable and a university source, which Kansas Bear believes is the be-all-end-all even if there's no analysis or basis or support for the battle conclusion. I could easily have added it to my tally above to make it 5-3 in my favor, for a commanding majority of sources, but it's important that sources are verifiable and credible--the "Proceedings at the Punjab University" source didn't appear to be, so I set it aside even though it was favorable to me; that's called good faith editing. The point isn't even about university sources, the point is whether these were detailed analytical publications that justified their conclusions rather than merely driveby passing mentions in circumstantially related books and theses.

As for H.S. Singha and cultural biography--that's my point. If Kansas Bear didn't have that unfortunate little habit of selective reading, he would see that I placed my primary reliance on Docherty and Jaques--not Singha when I said this: "This is further reinforced by the fact that 2 of the Sikh victory sources give extended accounts of the battle that actually explain why it was a Sikh victory. These 2 (of 4 favorable sources) were also the most recent and most weighty (coming from objective (non-indian, non-afghan) authors) and were specifically focused on the topic of Military History." Thus, it's clear that unlike him, I'm not placing primary reliance on cultural biographers or nationalism-biased authors, but objective, third party analysts.

In contrast, Kansas Bear's reliance is on the following:

Zalmay Gulzad-His work doesn't even appear to be a widely published book, but a mere school thesis(Source), See "Notes: Typescript Thesis (Ph.D.)--University of Wisconsin--Madison, 1991 ". If his "Durand Line Delimitation" work was indeed just a student thesis, that made only passing mention of Jamrud, then that means it not only was a work that didn't focus on military history, but was, unlike the works of Docherty and Jaques, reviewed by only his thesis advisor and required degree granting panel. If the wikipedia entry on him is correct, rather than a "university source" as Kansas Bear paints him out to be, he's a professor of social sciences at a community college--big difference(Source). The work Kansas Bear uses here, unlike the Docherty and Jaques books, isn't even available on amazon, lending further credence to the point that the Gulzad work is a mere thesis.

In contrast Docherty's published book was shortlisted for the "History Today" award, and was extensively reviewed by notable historians in newspapers of record: REVIEWS. Jaques work was widely edited by a board of scholars from institutions around the world, as noted above.

Jeffrey J. Roberts- Tennessee Technological University Professor of history (Source). His specialty is unknown but the work used is focused on the Origins of the Modern Day Afghan conflict, see book description (Source). Again, mere passing mention of the Battle of Jamrud. The work is actually focused on the 2001-Present War in Afghanistan. That's why Jamrud is only briefly noted in the introduction (on page 4) to give a brief background--rather than extensive analysis. The author himself actually focuses the work on the present war there and how it began. There is otherwise No explanation, no rationale. The what and why are important. If the author didn't study the details, just mentioned it en route to more important matters, then how much weight is it due?

Ludwig Adamec-Effectively wrote a cultural biography with his Dictionary of Afghanistan. His work merely made passing mention of jamrud. He did not analyze it for pages like other authors did. Nothing more need be said.

Thus, what we see here is a track record of Kansas Bear omitting important facts and selective reading, which is why he left out Paddy Docherty's University graduate level study in history. His research is so poor he was unable to even unearth favorable information to him (Jeffrey Roberts, history professor)--I had to volunteer it myself. That's the difference between a good faith editor interested in accurate articles and a nationalist keyboard warrior. This is what has made it so difficult to ensure an accurate article as well as engage in a good faith discussion with Kansas Bear.

Furthermore, if Kansas Bear had any understanding of Wikipedia Core Content Policy, he would realize that WP: ORIGINAL RESEARCH, which he accused me of here, "We, as editors, are not here to determine the result of this battle.", applies to primary sources, not secondary sources:[|(Definition)]. His poor understanding of (or bad faith description) of wikipedia policy is emblematic of how he's less interested in accurate articles and wiki collegiality and more interested in labeling good faith editors and pushing a nationalist agenda by any means.

In sum, from Kansas Bear's perspective, student theses are equivalent to published history award-winning books, passing mentions outweigh detailed battle analyses, and military officers have no military expertise and are "non-specialists".

Of course, all of this leaves out the obvious fact that we have secondary sources themselves that clearly state that the battle was about capturing the fort of Jamrud, which is why it was a Sikh victory, since the Sikhs kept the fort--the Afghan military objective failed. Therefore, in comparing the competing secondary sources, which rationale makes more sense?

Devanampriya (talk) 05:53, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * "Furthermore, if Kansas Bear had any understanding of Wikipedia Core Content Policy, he would realize that WP: ORIGINAL RESEARCH, which he accused me of here, "We, as editors, are not here to determine the result of this battle.", applies to primary sources, not secondary sources..." No. Entirely untrue. We do not engage in original research, ever, regardless of which sources we are consulting. No original research is core policy, and non-negotiable. We are not going to decide here 'who won the battle'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:23, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Questions to the Admin

1. Could you please clarify AndyTheGrump's competency to comment here?

He claims to be uninvolved, is not a party to the dispute, yet selectively targets my comments, and also attempts to speak with (unknown) authority. He also misunderstands Original research. Here's what it means: "The purpose of the original research is to produce new knowledge, rather than to present the existing knowledge in a new form (e.g., summarized or classified)." (Meaning).

I have not produced any new knowledge, I am merely presenting the existing knowledge in summary form--"i.e.the sikhs won the battle of jamrud, because secondary sources wrote x,y,z". Is AndytheGrump attempting to mischaracterize that fact that the secondary sources themselves said it was a sikh victory due to x,y,z reasons?

The official wiki core policy on original research states this: "This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research. A and B, therefore C is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article."[|Policy]

How have I synthesized anything? Sikh victory is not a new position.

All I did was point out the secondary sources that said it was a Sikh Victory, and then pointed out that they did detailed analysis on the topic and gave arguments for why the sikhs won, as opposed to the passing mention done by Afghan victory authors that had no supporting arguments. Compiling secondary source arguments and presenting that analysis is not original research.

2. Could you please clarify the google snippet/RS issue you had with my cited links?

Because most publications aren't available online in their entirety, I can only send you google book preview links or see inside amazon links. These frequently do not allow the user to link directly to the specific text that lists what source said. That is why I made it a point to include page numbers for your convenience, so you know which entry I refer to by searching the page. This also allows for readers to search inside the book himself/herself using "jamrud" as a search term.

3. I would also like to point out that the Original Research page specifically notes the following: "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented."[|Official Policy].

By that Official Wiki standard, would that not mean that the Zalmay Gulzad book on Delimitation of the Durand Line is disqualified, since it could not be considered a "published source directly related to the topic of the article"?

I only point this out because it appears to be an unpublished thesis focused on delimitation/border issues rather than historical accounts of battles. It also calls into question the Roberts book, since the Battle of Jamrud (Sikhs and Afghans) had nothing to do with the unrelated Origins of the 2001 American-Afghan war. Even the Adamec book becomes questionable since it's a general cultural biography, with a passing mention of jamrud.

Thank you.

Devanampriya (talk) 07:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Hello. I know you addressed the above questions to an admin, which I am not, but I hope I can help.


 * 1. I assume that AndyTheGrump is a volunteer on this noticeboard. If you scroll up to the top and click show on the guide for volunteers it explains that that is not a formal position and does not require any special authority. Anyone who feels they can help is free to input to the discussion. I am in exactly the same position: uninvolved and merely trying to help. He "targeted [your] comment" because he felt there was an issue with that particular comment. I very nearly did the same thing yesterday about something Kansas Bear said, but decided I wasn't sure enough about what I was saying.


 * As for the issue that Andy pointed out, I agree with him. Sikh victory is not a new position from a source that says Sikh victory, but it is a new position from the combination of a source that says that keeping the fort was a victory and another that says the Sikh's kept the fort, or even from a single source that states both but does not make the connection. You need to combine those two pieces of information and make a deduction from them to know that the Sikhs won, and unless you can find a source that does combine them and makes the deduction, it is synthesis. I realise that this is a frustrating limitation when your sources have all the information you need to deduce something - my own very first substantive edit ran into similar issues, but Wikipedia runs on verifiability, not truth. You could put both pieces of information in the article, but you can't make the deduction yourself, even as a summary of the cited information. If you have a notable source that explicitly claims Sikh victory, then you may include that statement.


 * 2. I really can't say what the issue is. If the source doesn't have the full text available for free on the internet, then you couldn't link to it, which is less convenient but certainly does not mean the source can't be used - if anything the contrary.


 * 3. First, WP:V states that "Source material must have been published (made available to the public in some form)". In other words it does not have to have been published in the sense of a publishing house, and the 'unpublished' thesis would count unless as long as it can be accessed by the public. Is this the case, or else how was the information from this source obtained? Of course, this doesn't by itself mean that it is a notable, reliable source, but it would not, as I understand it, be disqualified for not being published.


 * Second, on the point you raised about "sources directly related to the subject of the article", it is not clear to me that this requires the entire work to be about a specific subject in order for a section of it which is directly related to the subject to be used as a source. Provided the information cited is directly related to the subject in question, I don't think there is an issue.


 * I hope this helps with your questions. Finally, I would exhort all involved to please not resort to personal criticism and insults. No matter how justified, talking about "so-and-so's selective reading" or "if such-and-such had any understanding" is not helpful. All it does is inflame tempers and cause bad feeling, and make it that much harder for anyone reading the discussion to pick out the pertinent information. Please can all of us stick to discussing what it was that so-and-so omitted to read, and what point we feel such-and-such doesn't understand. Also, is there any chance we could get some indentation, so it's clear when each comment ends? CarrieVS (talk) 13:14, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Devanampriya, give your comment regarding me above, I shall be taking no further part in this discussion - I shall however point out that your tendency to engage in what appear to be personal attacks on those who disagree with you or point out that your understanding of Wikipedia policy is flawed, is unlikely to be productive and should it continue, is liable to result in sanctions being taken against you. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:13, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This is an informal board to resolve small content disputes. I am not an administrator, but merely a listed volunteer. Andy The Grump, as well as ANY other editor may participate in this and all other discussions on Wikipedia unless they have been closed to outside comments and we do not do that here. The reason Andy speaks with authority is because he has some expertise in this area and I am very disapointed that Devanampriya would simply attack him over commenting here. I find this very disruptive and not in good faith. Devanampriya, and editors. From this point on we will be speaking in the third person. No further mention of an editor should be made by name. Use him, her, them, they or "the editor".--Amadscientist (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor, can I suggest that next thing to do is to take all the sources to WP: RSN. The best way to present them is author, title, publisher and date of publication. The question is the same in every case: is this source reliable for the outcome of the Battle of Jamrut. Don't add what the source says about the outcome. Then when you have a list of sources considered reliable, if they disagree, you can summarise them in the format "X argues but Y argues". Itsmejudith (talk)

Regarding "Question to Admin"

My "Questions to Admin" response was addressed to Amadscientist, as it was my understanding that since he was in charge of the dispute resolution, he had such authority. Apologies if that was unclear, but I am not a regular in Dispute Resolution processes.

My concerns about editor AndyTheGrump were expressed given the very recent complaints about his incivility on his talk page. I have no problem if good faith comments are made, but selective targeting and continuing incivility is a natural concern to any dispute party. In any event, as Amadscientist stipulated, I will reserve comment on new commenters as per the code of conduct.

With respect to my comments regarding opposing editor, I am unclear as to why they are viewed as attacks. Opposing editor stated without evidence that I was conducting original research and made snarky comments about me and cultural biographers; how is pointing out selective research and fact omission conducted by him being a problem an attack? In any event, I am more than happy to engage in discussion civilly, and will observe the code of conduct as stipulated by the DR mediator with the understanding that it will be applied equally.

I am also awaiting the DR mediator's response to my questions--specifically the issue he had with accessing the concerned text. Do the page numbers help? Do you need me to repost the links in the hopes that specific text is pulled? Please let me know. Thank you.

With respective to CarrieVS's comments, here is my response:

Thank you for attempting to clarify my questions. However, I must respectfully disagree:

1. Sikh Victory is not a new position even within a single source.

If you take a look at the Tony Jaques source above, it specifically notes that the Afghans were defeated outside Jamrud and withdrew. The specific argument for Sikh victory therefore comes directly from the source. If it was a defeat for party A, then it's a victory for party B--it's not synthesis, it's axiomatic. The overbroad logical standard you appear to be setting here is not explicitly mentioned in the core policy--and for good reason. Summary is neither synthesis nor original research, and does not require verbatim text. Wikipedia infoboxes are formatted to state whom the victor was rather than loser--for the record, I think stating "Afghan defeat" would be accurate and acceptable as well. Thus, no original research has been conducted since the argument about Afghan Defeat/Sikh Victory comes directly from a reliable, academically reviewed source, "Dictionary of Battles and Sieges". This is also supplemented by the Col. H.S. Singha book which said Hari Singh (the Sikh Commander) "lost his life but not the battle".

2. I just wanted to make sure Amadscientist could access the concerned text from the above sources. Google books does not always let one do so, which is why I listed page numbers and later recommended a specific search term to make sure the Reviewer could access the concerned material.

3. With respective to Verifiability, if you read further down, reliable sources are clearly stipulated as follows: [|(Policy)]. "The best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments. The greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source."

Just to clarify, this is my point about "Extended Accounts vs Passing Mentions", since three sources I provided spent time actually "analyzing facts" instead of merely supplying an unjustified conclusion, aka passing mention. The Gulzad thesis, Roberts book, and Adamec book all make passing mentions rather than go about analyzing facts pertaining to the issue at hand. By WP standards, Gulzad, et al are less reliable as sources than Docherty et al.

In addition, the policy also states "Completed dissertations written as part of the requirements for a PhD, and which are publicly available, are considered publications by scholars and can be cited in footnotes if it is shown that they have entered mainstream academic discourse and therefore have been vetted by the scholarly community.".[|Scholarship]

It has not been demonstrated that the Zalmay Gulzad unpublished thesis in question entered mainstream academic discourse and was vetted by the scholarly community at large--only his advisors and degree panel. This was the concern I expressed above. In contrast, the Docherty book has been clearly vetted, reviewed, and even given awards by actually professors of history at reputable institutions. The Jaques book was also reviewed by an editorial board of professional historians and history faculty members at recognized institutions.

Thanks again for your comment.

Regards,

Devanampriya (talk) 21:44, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I did write another long comment in response, but then I deleted it. It doesn't matter.
 * This is what matters: a solution has been proposed to resolve this dispute, namely, to take all the sources, from both sides, to WP:RSN. Do the editors involved agree with this proposal?


 * Also, again, indentation? Like discussions usually have? Like the one above has? Please? CarrieVS (talk) 22:38, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with Itsmejudith's proposal. I see no reason to continue this "discussion" following the attack(s) on an uninvolved editor. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:47, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I also agree with Itsmejudith's proposal, particularly given mischaracterizations of the opposing party and the unwillingness to answer good faith questions about the reliability of sources.

Devanampriya (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Talk:UltraViolet (system)
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

One editor, JimTheFrog, who appears to be an expert in UltraViolet, and who has personally worked on and gained from UltraViolet, has been editing UltraViolet in a way which it sounds self-promoting and non-neutral. I feel that criticism needs to be added, because there is plenty of criticism going around on the Internet of UltraViolet. The process is slow, because UltraViolet is relatively new.

JimTheFrog has been accused by other users on the talk page as a "big time Microsoft shill."

The dispute is that JimTheFrog feels that there is no POV issue, and has twice now removed POV tags, citing things like the fact that no meaningful discussion has been forming in the space of a few months, and therefore that the POV tag should not remain. All the while, the POV issue has remained as unresolved as it did at the start of the discussion. No criticism has made its way into the article.

I've already re-added the tags once, and adding it again would start an edit war. Firstly, we need to figure out whether this article really does have a POV issue (I think it does). After this primary dispute has been resolved, we can start looking at adding some of the disadvantages to UltraViolet, and finally make some progress in trying to make it neutral, if it is deemed to have an POV issue.

NB: While I only added me and JimTheFrog into the 'Users involved' field, I think that the other users on the page are also involved. But I am unsure whether they feel that they are involved, or feel they have abandoned the discussion already. This path seems more applicable than Third Opinion.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Determined that JimTheFrog works for DECE. But he has claimed that he edited the article before he joined DECE staff. He only points to a LinkedIn profile (Jim Taylor).

Attempted to find sources of criticism. No source has been reliable. At this moment, I feel I cannot attempt to find criticism if the article turns out not to have any POV issues, as JimTheFrog has claimed.

How do you think we can help?

Look at the article, and decide whether a POV tag should remain in the header of the article, or whether it should not be added. Decide whether a very major source given by JimTheFrog, and written by him (Jim Taylor), is a reliable source in resolving the POV matter on the whole (http://uvdemystified.com/), or whether it would only work towards making the POV matter worse.

Opening comments by JimTheFrog
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Talk:UltraViolet (system) discussion
Hello, I volunteer here at DRN. I'm currently reading through the existing dispute. Can I ask that JimTheFrog is informed that this dispute remains here and we can't continue until he joins the process. Thanks, Cabe  6403  (Talk•Sign) 13:53, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

earl mindell
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Earl Mindell received his Pharmacy Degree in 1963, not 1964. Pacific Western University was accredited in 1963 in the state of California. In a letter dated Feb 16,2007 from Sheila M. Hawkins, Education Administrator, Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education, State of California, she stated "Pacific Western University was granted authorization to operate as a California Degree Granting institution by the State Department of Education. Among its programs was the PH.D. in Nutrition.

With regards to SOD there are 51529 published research studies on PubMed  44247 published research studies on SOD as an antioxidant.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried to edit with explanations.

How do you think we can help?

By putting in the correct facts!

Opening comments by Earl Mindell
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earl mindell discussion
Hi, I'm Carrie, and I'm a volunteer here at the DRN. I have a couple of questions about the situation: Thank you, CarrieVS (talk) 14:12, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You've named Earl Mindell as the other editor involved; I think this must be a mistake (not least since no such user exists). Could you tell me what other editor(s) are involved in this dispute?
 * You answered yes to the question 'Have you discussed this on a talk page?'. Could you give me a link to the discussion? I can't find it on talk:Earl Mindell?

LIFT Productions
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I am an attorney representing John J. Anderson, co-founder of L.I.F.T., a Louisiana business created to produce films.

The former co-owner of the business, Malcolm Patel, was recently released from federal prison for bribing a public official in an unrelated business.

He has modified the Wiki LIFT page to include personal attacks on my client which may cause business harm and loss of reputation.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

There are several pending lawsuits and countersuits between the parties.

How do you think we can help?

Lock down the page and prevent modifications that include personal attacks.

Opening comments by null
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CelluloidSage is the user posting false, libelous accusations regarding my client, John J. Anderson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.203.142.215 (talk) 00:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by
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LIFT Productions discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Although the English Wikipedia has policies in place regarding contentious statements about living people, this isn't the right forum for your request. Please visit the biographies of living persons noticeboard for assistance. I will leave this message for about 24 hours to make sure you see it, then this request will be closed. &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 03:15, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Olga Korbut
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

After reviewing the Template:Infobox gymnast page, I added the height & weight (with year as per example) to the already present Infobox on Olga Korbut page. This change was undone by Littleolive oil. The reason given was that the information was not stable & not encyclopedic, and the citation indicated height/weight was measured after career was over. I have since obtained new citations that provide height/weight during Korbut's career, but Littleolive oil said that the citations must reference how Korbut's height/weight impacted her career. This part is what I dispute. I feel it is an unreasonable requirement. I assume the gymnast infobox has already gone through an approval process, and both height/weight were included for a reason. As well, I can find no precedence anywhere stating the height/weight citations require specific references to the impact of an Olympic athletes career. Height/weight are important to an athlete in any sport. Although height/weight can fluctuate, the templates I've viewed state to add the year in parenthesis when the weight/height was measured as it may change over time. I've also reviewed various other Olympic athletes on wikipedia (Michael Phelps, McKayla Maroney, Gabby Douglas, Jordyn Wieber, Aly Raisman, Kyla Ross, Justin Spring, Tom Malchow, Tom Dolan, Louis Smith, Max Whitlock) and I have yet to find a citation for height/weight that states how height/weight impacted a career. I believe I'm following the standard outlined in the Template:Infobox gymnast, and every Olympic athlete's page I have viewed that has one or both height & weight within that infobox.

Citations: Women and Sports in the United States: A Documentary Reader(O'Reilly & Cahn) Sports Around the World: History, Culture, and Practice (Nauright & Parrish)

I have another citation that states the importance of height/weight in gymnastics, but not specifically Korbut:How to Create Champions: The Theory and Methodology of Training Top-Class Gymnasts(L.I. Arkaev)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I received assistance from Legoktm via IRC initially who helped get clarification on Littleolive oil objection. I also received assistance from various people on IRC #wikipedia-en-help. In the talk page Littleolive oil recommended I use a noticeboard to resolve this.

How do you think we can help?

I guess we need a ruling if height/weight in the 'Template:Infobox gymnast' requires a citation that indicates height or weight specific impact on a gymnasts career, rather than just the information itself. And I suppose all other biographies infobox templates where height/weight are of importance. I would like to be able to add this information with my current reliable sources as provided above

Opening comments by Littleolive oil
User, talk-page discussion:

My objections were; That height after a gymnasts career isn't significant, in Korbut's case, after 2002. She retired in 1977. Weight fluctuates and data on a specific weight is not significant in and of itself. Height and weight alone do not impact the gymnasts career. I suggested that Mjeromee could or should use content if it came from a reliable source and indicated how those measurements impacted a career. Weight and height as a ratio to strength, and in relation to each other impact a career. As a one time competitive gymnast I an very aware of that, but we can't add content based on what we know which is a form of WP:OR. I have no objection to adding content on this in the body of the article, in context, and with a RS as support. (olive (talk) 00:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC))

The source doesn't say anything about whether Korbut's size affected her in any way but does give her height and weight in 1968 when she was 13. If there is a consensus to include this I have no problems with it, but it must be included only in context of Korbut's age at that time.(olive (talk) 00:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC))

Olga Korbut discussion
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Cinema of Andhra Pradesh
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The mentioning of Cinema of Andhra Pradesh as the Second largest Film industry in India is being disputed

RTPking (talk) 08:05, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussing on Talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Please see the citations and proof presented by each side and decide who is right. RTPking (talk) 08:05, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Vensatry
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 * The claim is highly subjective. Second by what means? No. of films produced, revenue or distribution? There are a lot of contradicting sources which say Tamil as well as Telugu to the second biggest in India. I came across a few sources claiming Tamil to be the second largest in India, and second in terms of revenue, distribution and star base. &mdash; Vensatry  (Ping me)  17:16, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Cinema of Andhra Pradesh discussion

 * I can provide as many sources which state Telugu Cinema as Second,for instance


 * www.georgetown.edu Paper Presented by S.V. Srinivas  Ph.D in George Town University Washington D.C
 * http://www.bbc.co.uk/ -- Mentions Tamil third after Bollywood and Tollywood (Telugu cinema)

Most of these conclusions provided as citations which have been compiled by someone else's logic which may or may not be true, I suggest we disregard all these and each provide data backed by good Citations and based on which derive to logical conclusions. RTPking (talk) 23:29, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Just a note (to DRN volunteers: I'm monitoring this matter as an admin, not an editor): Your suggestion is not allowed: we don't look at primary data and draw conclusions from it; rather, we go by what reliable sources say. As to the overall dispute, though, just because we have conflicting sources means we say nothing; rather, what we usually do is provide both sides of the story, with references, covering them fairly per WP:NPOV. Is there a way that the two of you could agree to this sort of set-up? Qwyrxian (talk) 05:27, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment about the two sources provided by User:RTPking: The first one is a paper presented by someone as a part of their research. I see no reputation of the person and he has never explained by what meas he claims the industry to be the second biggest. The BBC source is just a forum where many users have expressed their thoughts, lot of which were based on arguments from Wikipedia itself. &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  07:41, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I can provide as many good sources as you may need, I hope the above sources would suffice.
 * http://ibnlive.in.com/news/telugu-industry-to-observe-shutdown-on-fri/112050-8-69.html
 * http://www.thehindu.com/arts/cinema/telugu-film-industry-mou-with-motion-pictures-association-of-america/article3205612.ece

I agree with User:Qwyrxian ; RTPking (talk) 22:04, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Vensatry please mention whether or not you agree with Qwyrxian and mention your reasons. RTPking (talk) 08:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, i am a volunteer for the DRN. If I understood correctly the dispute is about mentioning Telugu Film Industry being the second largest in India? If so, let us understand that exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources (WP:EXCEPTIONAL) and Where there is disagreement between sources, use in-text attribution (WP:NPOV) which means that we can have a statement like while such-and-such paper said in 2012 that the Telugu Film industry was number two in terms of revenue, in the same year so-and-so paper said that the tamil film industry was number one. So this discussion need not be about choosing this or that. -Wikishagnik (talk) 04:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Firstly I need to mention to you that it is already established that Bollywood has the first place, now this disagreement is about the second place whether Telugu or Tamil holds the second place.

Please see the above discussion as well as the Talk page of Cinema of Andhra Pradesh to find citations supporting Telugu Film industry as Second largest, and citations provided by Vensatry in this discussion stating that Tamil industry is second largest. My question is Vensatry has provided citations of the same news paper {The Hindu} for stating Tamil holding second position which also states Telugu as Second largest, but yet he want it mentioned in Tamil cinema but opposes being mentioned on Cinema of andhra Pradesh I suggest both articles mention this information and also the details that the other cine industry is also considered second simulateanously. I request Vensatry to comment whether he agrees to this solution, the same which User:Qwyrxian proposed. RTPking (talk) 23:00, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If there is a contentious statement which can be proven either way with the help of reliable sorces we may do one of the following


 * 1) Delete the material in question and say nothing.
 * 2) Keep the material and place both poisitions in the article with reliable sources (as I have illustrated before). This can be done even with the hinkdu as a source as the newspaper ranked both film industries at different and hence, the statement about the telugu film industry being he second largest film industry can be qualified accordingly. -Wikishagnik (talk) 03:42, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * None of the sources provided by RTPking explicitly say by what means the industry is second largest. The sources might mean that the industry is second largest in terms of films produced annually. But size of the industry with respect to revenue or world-wide distribution is unclear. I've provided sources stating that the Tamil film industry is second biggest in terms of revenue. I'd suggest we remove the claims altogether from both the pages to avoid conflicts. &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  07:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * RTPking, are you OK with the compromise? We can split hair here and quote Hindu articles to say something like according to The Hindu in the year 20xx tamil film industry was number two while in the year 20yy Telugu film industry... but that would simply confuse readers and invite debate about The Hindu as WP:RS as I have not found any reliable source that says how the Hindu comes to these conclusions. -Wikishagnik (talk) 05:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with Wikishagnik that both articles mention that they are Second largest film industry in India, providing the sources this is a good way to compromise. RTPking (talk) 01:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * RTPking, I think you've misunderstood Wikishagnik. His recommendation is the same as Vesantry's: that we don't say either one is the "second largest". Do you actually agree with not mentioning anything about second largest? Qwyrxian (talk) 02:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)


 * No do not agree on not mentioning on both articles, if there is information available it should be made visible on wikipedia on both articles, stating each of them are considered second largest and provide the sources. RTPking (talk) 19:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Mail Online
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved

Dispute overview

There is a dispute over the addition of 2-3 lines detailing a controversy of a newspaper accidentally publishing the wrong article. Readers noticed that not only was it the wrong verdict in a court case, but that the publisher had made fake quotes and a further claim of a suicide watch order being placed on one person. This is reliably cited and User:Collect keeps removing all mention to the actual controversy, leaving only a biased statement playing down the incident as something a few other publications did. Not only do i find this incredibly biased protectionism, but it also removes the controversy aimed at the Mail Online. Further he has accused me of BLP violations for restoring it once as "censorship" with no discussion before hand (even though there is one on the talk page).

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk page discussion going nowhere fast

How do you think we can help?

Deciding on appropriate wording of the section or clarifying if it should just state that there was a controversy, but nothing other rival publications didn't do (a biased and incorrect fact currently stated)

Opening comments by Collect
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This is a "misuse of sources dispute" on two claims.

First is a claim whcih implies that the MO "published" an article with falsehoods therein, and did not remove it - where the "article" was visible online for all of a half hour and appears to have been a routine "placeholder" whose significance is being overstated by the wording of the claim made. I sought to have the claim represent what the source actually states as fact.


 * In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers published articles on Amanda Knox's trial, based on a possible upholding of the guilty verdict. The articles remained online until the announcememt of the reversal of the guilty verdict is a reasonable statement of the facts as presented in the sources given.

The second is a complete misuse of a source "Poynter" where I went to what the original source states.


 *  In March 2012, Poynter published an article saying the MailOnline did not always attribute stories from other sources. Martin Clarke, editor of MailOnline said "We will soon be introducing features that will allow us to link easily and prominently to other sites when further recognition of source material is needed is a reasonable and proper statement of what the source actually states.

This is thus a dispute over how far a Wikipedia claim may misstate what a source says, and should be at WP:RS/N if the proponent really feels that the claim as that editor worded it is supportable by the source. Collect (talk) 15:36, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Note: The wrong article was online for all of 90 seconds according to strong reliable sources. The sources cited make clear that this was true of several newspapers, making that cavil errant. I do not think that using what the sources say is "biased" nor did I "remove criticism" at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:36, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Mail Online discussion
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I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. A look at the talk page of the article suggests that there are a number of other editors involved in this dispute, most notably Dreamyshade, Pscorp19, and Christian1985 but there may be others as well. Is there some reason why they should not be included here and notified on their talk pages? Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 18:14, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Not really -- but I suggest that the consensus on that article talk page makes this DRN moot. All editors but one agree on the wording I proposed as being neutral and BLP-compliant. Collect (talk) 22:42, 10 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I was notified on my talk page, and it looks like those other two editors were notified as well. For context, I started looking at this article after seeing a request on WP:3O. I'm OK with Collect's changes. There's a larger disagreement on the talk page about how to cover critical material, but since the article now has attention from multiple editors, we can hopefully work it out via talk page discussion. If that doesn't seem to be working, it could be helpful to have a dispute resolution discussion about the larger disagreement, not just a couple details. Dreamyshade (talk) 23:37, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Update: I posted to the talk page with a suggested revision to improve the clarity of the Knox sentence. Dreamyshade (talk) 00:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The other editors were notified well before you posted TransportMan, i just didn't see them as essential to this as at the time it was a disagreement mainly between me and Collect over censorship of information and is now over protecting the Mail Online from any criticism at all, no matter how much coverage it gets or how significant. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 09:58, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem is evident - I try to maintain WP:BLP, WP:RS and WP:NPOV and get accused of "censorship" and "protecting the Mail OnLine from any criticism at all" which is a fatuous argument entirely.  The "big issue" is how much weight to attach to a placeholder story accidentally released for 90 seconds online, and whether to say the MO "fabricated" the story in a lengthy paragraph.  I suggest that a brief mention avoids UNDUE and POV issues.  Jenova apparently feels that the claim of "fabrication" must be made in as lengthy manner a possible.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no BLP violation, that's a crap argument from the Conservative wikiproject, which Lionelt used to use for the removal of information from Ex-gay articles, and which you are using to remove anything about a well sourced and reliably sourced criticism of the Mail Online making up a story in preparation and publishing it at the wrong verdict. This was caught and reported. Making your RS and BLP tags a smokescreen to remove the controversy, and instead wording the section to praise the Mail Online (That's the best one yet, while claiming the other wordings proposed are biased or undue weight).
 * The problem still persists between the me and Collect, but more opinions are welcome. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 15:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * And i like your "lengthy paragraph" part, especially as my wording only adds 3 words to the one proposed by the third opinion (Dreamyshade) and your wording is longer than that !
 * My preferred wording:
 * In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers temporarily published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. MailOnline removed the article within 90 seconds and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of fictional quotes and reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable".
 * Collect's:
 * In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers accidentally released placeholder articles based on a possible guilty verdict in the Amanda Knox case. The Mail Online article was viewable for about 90 seconds, before being replaced with the article prepared for a "not guilty" verdict.  The Mail OnLine apologized, and was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint. The PCC said 'It also welcomed the swiftness of the newspaper's response and its decision to examine its procedures in light of the events.
 * Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 15:50, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Jenova20's preferred version looks much more balanced, staying much truer to the source. Collect's version misdirects the reader toward a positive spin, misinterpreting the sources which are mainly negative. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The aim is to actually obey WP:NPOV and my "version" on the talk page quotes the PCC directly -- which I suggest is a good way to avoid POV wording. That you see NPOV as "positive spin" I find quite amazing, as I did Jenova's overt claim that I have a COI on the talk page. The PCC said that the actions taken to prevent any recurrence were commendable, by the way. Cheers.  Collect (talk) 18:05, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Here's what I posted to the talk page: The thing I'm seeing is that the MailOnline article was unusual enough for the PCC to go through the process of upholding a complaint about it, unlike the errors published by the other newspapers. If the MailOnline had published a brief prepared story reporting on the guilty verdict as if it had happened, this wouldn't have been particularly notable; the problem was that the MailOnline included "colourful" speculative details as well. I think these links show that reliable sources didn't consider it routine. The PCC complaint was not heavy though, balancing a reprimand for the story and details with an acknowledgement of removing it quickly and apologizing, so I want to include it but not overstate it.

Looking at Jenova20's modification of my proposal, I believe saying "fictional" quotes isn't supported by the sources, and the added "fictional quotes" phrase is somewhat redundant with saying "reactions that had not taken place".

Thanks to Collect for writing a proposal too, since it's easier to discuss this with specifics instead of abstractions. Here's what I said on the talk page explaining that I prefer my proposal: I believe saying "accidentally" and "possible guilty verdict" also isn't quite supported by the sources; according to the "quotes that seemed useful to me for reference on what happened" above, the articles were published on purpose since the newspapers thought a guilty verdict had happened - they were just mistakes. Is the term "set and hold" familiar to most UK readers, or do we need to define that if we use it? (I'm in the US and hadn't heard the term before looking at these sources.) It's also important to be clear that this event was about the appeal's upholding or reversal of the guilty verdict, not the original guilty verdict. I think we should also briefly summarize the PCC complaint instead of quoting part of it, to help with due weight.

Here's another attempt that tries to include the PCC complaint's positive elements:


 * In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers temporarily published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. MailOnline removed the article within 90 seconds and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error.

It's getting a little long, but we do have eight secondary sources to support it:. Dreamyshade (talk) 21:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

On the talk page, Collect and I agreed on this version, with changes from "temporarily" to "prematurely" and "prepared" to "standby":
 * In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers prematurely published standby articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. MailOnline removed the article within 90 seconds and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error.

Jenova20, what do you think? Dreamyshade (talk) 02:54, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and put that proposed version into the article. It's similar to the version Jenova20 preferred above, so hopefully this resolves the dispute. Dreamyshade (talk) 09:05, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I can't support any version which gives the excuse of the Mail Online but doesn't mention what the controversy was - creating fictional quotes and/or making up claims of Amanda on suicide watch. These are the issues people complained about, not that the wrong article was up for 90 seconds. What is the actual point of saying there was a complaint and the mail apologised when the reader can click the reference, see it, think "oh, that's quite bad", and wonder why Wikipedia instead reports on it as though it's a department of the Mail Online? Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 09:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Also the 90 second part is an excuse from the Mail Online, not a definite fact. It is actually disputed by a few commentators and so its inclusion is controversial if not explained.Source 1Source 2Source 3
 * And for anyone who disputes the made up quotes still:
 * Prosecutors were delighted with the verdict and said that "justice has been done" although they said on a "human factor it was sad two young people would be spending years in jail"
 * There's some quotes. Did they happen or were they made up? Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 10:05, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Whatculture also uses "personal blogs" per its solicitation for anyone to write for it. DigitalSpy says it was "swiftly deleted". WaPo says that an "Irish blogger" said it was online for some time - but bloggers != reliable sources.  Thus you have precisely ZERO reliable sources for it being anything other than "swiftly deleted" (DigitalSpy).  Thanks for showing the paucity of evidence that it was not removed swiftly. Collect (talk) 13:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, let's keep trying to figure out a compromise. Like I said on the talk page, the question is whether the quotes and suicide watch detail are remarkable/notable enough to qualify for weight in the article. The suicide watch detail was in the original MailOnline article, and the PCC complaint mentions it along with other details from the article, but the PCC summary and three of four articles on the complaint don't mention it, so I believe including it would be undue.
 * The quotes part is disputed by the Mail, so we can't simply say "fictional quotes" - this Press Gazette article says "According to a Mail insider, the quotes from the prosecutor were obtained in advance", and this later Press Gazette article says "According to the PCC, in its defence the paper said that the quotes had been obtained from the prosecution in advance of the trial 'to be published in the event that the appeal was rejected"".
 * That Washington Post source is helpful. How about "within minutes" instead of "within 90 seconds"? That's vague enough to cover both the Mail's claim and other people's claims. I also added "and quotes" since a number of the sources did comment specifically on the quotes:
 * In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers temporarily published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. MailOnline removed the article within minutes and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of reactions and quotes that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error.
 * Dreamyshade (talk) 10:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The Mail Online's defence of 90 seconds is argued against by others. If we report their figure, then for balance we need that it is disputed. Here is the version as it currently stands after i added tro it and removed colourful defences of the Mail, which were just opinion, and not factual:
 * In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial prematurely. The articles reported an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge had finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict.   MailOnline claims to have removed the article within 90 seconds, although this is disputed by other news sources  , and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of events and reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error. The article also made claims that Amanda Knox and her partner were put on suicide watch, which were false.    


 * Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 11:04, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you be specific about which parts you considered not supported by the sources ("just opinion, and not factual")?
 * Your text of "MailOnline claims to have removed the article within 90 seconds, although this is disputed by other news sources" is less concise than saying "MailOnline removed the article within minutes", and this text needs to be concise to maintain due weight.
 * Changing "prematurely published standby articles" to "published prepared articles" brings back the problems that Collect and I discussed on the talk page - see "All stories are "prepared" in some sense or another" and "use "prematurely" to indicate that the articles were released before the paper could actually know the verdict". Your edit summary said "less excuses for what it was", but the previous wording was more clear about what happened.
 * Changing "reporting of reactions" to "reporting of events and reactions" is confusing to me - my intent with saying "reactions" was to cover the reported events, quotes, and other details. Maybe that's not sufficiently clear? In any case, my suggestion above is to change this to "reporting of reactions and quotes" since the sources seem to agree that the quotes were important.
 * Adding "The article also made claims that Amanda Knox and her partner were put on suicide watch, which were false." puts undue weight on that detail according to my review of the sources, as I've explained above.
 * Splitting the first sentence into two sentences is OK with me if other people think that makes it easier to read, although I liked the balance of having one sentence about the general situation and one sentence about the Mail-specific situation. Dreamyshade (talk) 11:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The first sentence seemed too big to comfortably read. It read like terms and conditions to me, which is why i tried to split it up and reword it. I like your "reporting of reactions and quotes" part though. Can you do a new wording below? And i considered the suicide claim significant enough to mention. It is mentioned in most sources, and even if only quoted in some, it is still one of the made up events of the case whch i included because it was part of the complaint. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 12:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * IOW, you wish to present a POV article here and not abide by WP:NPOV? Sorry -- you would need far more than a mere consensus for that, and you do not have anywhere near a consensus for the edits you wish.  Cheers.  DRN can not negate WP:NPOV ever, and it will not do so now. Collect (talk) 12:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't have a new version to offer yet - I think my latest proposal above still balances the specific concerns I've seen and the sources I've read. I agree that the sentences are a little long, but I haven't yet figured out a way to split the first one without causing even more awkwardness. Collect, any comments on the proposal from 10:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC) above? For the 90 second thing, here's the relevant part of the Washington Post column: "A spokesperson for the Daily Mail told the Press Gazette that the publication will look into the incorrect story, which they said was live for 90 seconds, though some commenters claimed it was available online for much longer." They take the other claims seriously enough to mention them, which may justify being a little vague. Dreamyshade (talk) 13:10, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The PCC accepted the 90 second figure. That someone uses a cached system to view an article does not bring the 90 seconds into question.  On AOL, the cache was sometimes updated only after some hours, and such events should not be imputed in any way to the Mail Online. "Available online" != "not removed at the 90 second mark" if you talk to anyone in the online communication area  at all.  In fact, it can take Wikipedia itself more than 20 minutes to update its own caches of articles! (technical load issues are a primary cause).  In short, where the MO make a statement and the PCC acceots that statement, it is UNDUE for us to use unnamed "commentators" without identifying them specifically.  Cheers. - I had thought was had an agreement on the language for sure. Collect (talk) 13:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The Mail Online is not a reliable source Collect. It's not made clear if the PCC say 90 seconds, solely because that is the defense of the Mail, or if they actually investigated the time it was up. What is clear is that there are reliable sources disputing this time given by the Mail. That's controversial.
 * And your message on my talk page was not appropriate. Read the sources and you'll quickly see it's all there. No one is trying to challenge NPOV, it's just a fantasy you have created. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 15:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And since when can NPOV be used to remove half a debate? I notice Collect finds the Mail's claim of 90 seconds notable, but not that multiple other sources challenge that time...That's not NPOV at all...it's almost like it's a violation of NPOV...Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 15:38, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Try again -- YOU chose to use the PCC result as a source - and when one uses a source, one uses the entire source. And that particular source ... gives the 90 second claim.  It is NPOV to use all of a source, it is POV to cherry-pick from the source.  Do you see the difference?   And I note that your "multiple sources" include one which says "swiftly" (DigitalSpy) and one which is a blog, and one which quotes an "Irish blogger".  I would further note that GoogleNews etc. do not refresh their results every minute  (heck, neither does Wikipedia!), and that the one DigitalSpy noted that the link from such a source led to a deadlink -- meaning that the 90 seconds used by the PCC is the only reliably sourced time we have at all.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Erm, no. Read WP:Reliable and get back to us on that one Collect. It takes more than that to rule a source unreliable. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 16:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Jenova, the "within 90 seconds" is the claim made only by the MailOnline, and therefore it cannot be used as a fact. Pscorp19 (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you still want to claim there are no reliable sources? Another one. That's on top of the 3 from earlier. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 17:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And the PCC report still stands as the definitive report which you specifically wished to use - so we get to use all of it. That Googlenews or the like link to a story which has been removed != any value at all.  They frequently take a half hour to update their links.  And your prior three sources had only one RS source say a blogger reported the story was live for a short while, while DigitalSpy (RS) stated "swiftly."  Your blog source of course fails WP:RS.  Now is there any value at all to your tendentiousnes on this?  I would note your sources make naught of the "suicide watch" claim you sought to insert, or the multitude of trivia now found in that section including In April 2012, Salon magazine reported that MailOnline overhyped a story about Egyptian necrophilia law which Al-Arabiya took from a newspaper opinion column written by a dedicated Hosni Mubarak supporter. where there is no accusation the MO did anything wrong at all.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:54, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The PCC got the 90 second figure from the Mail Online using it as their defense, which is not a reliable source. To mention it, you would have to attribute it to the Mail Online directly, rather than claim it as fact. That's misrepresentation of the sources Collect. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 09:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm looking at "within 90 seconds" vs. "within minutes" as a question of finding the version that will cause less of an edit war. :) Can we take a quick survey of whether people would tolerate the article saying "within minutes"? Collect, can you provide details from the sources supporting that people's claims of longer availability (as noted in the Washington Post column) were caused by the article getting cached on other websites, so we can look at that in more detail? Dreamyshade (talk) 22:18, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The PCC examined just about everything - and accepted the 90 seconds figure. I can assure you that Googlenews shows links which are "dead" on a common basis, and one of the articles cited stated that they followed a link from another page and found the actual article had been removed, though not removed from the referring site.  As the only sources that it was not removed are bloggers, and we do not give weight to blogger claims as a rule, I suggest we stick with the PCC findings (including the fact they praised the Mail for its quick response - which they would not have done if they thought it was less than swift action). Collect (talk) 22:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to say the Mail's defense of 90 seconds (making clear it's what they said and not a fact) but also making clear that others dispute this, including the Washington Post. Going with one side over the other wouldn't be fair and the 90 seconds alone is a violation of NPOV since Wikipedia would be siding with the Mail against the sources available and ignoring their argument. And Collect, i am free to change my opinion. If your only defense is that i said something before changing my mind then you need a better argument. We're trying to figure out a wording here and you're trying to be childish and create divisions and arguments. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 09:28, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm kind of out of ideas here - "within minutes" seems like the best option to me, but it sounds like neither of you are willing to go with that compromise. Are any dispute resolution volunteers available to step in and help? Dreamyshade (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't try and place a specific time since both sides dispute it. We just need what the Mail said, and what the other side counter with. That's balanced, that's neutral. Picking a side isn't. Collect removes all reference to the controversy every time and so we're left with the highly POV piece we currently have which praises the Mail Online. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 09:21, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The discussion above belies your claims about my edits.   I suggest you read WP:AGF and WP:NPA and decide on your own to abide thereon.   And that you find WP:NPOV to be a problem with your edits, I suggest you have a cup of tea and abide by that policy as well.   Your sources say only that blofggers said it was available for a half hour.  The MO, and the PCC agree on the 90 seconds.  I would point out that removing an article at the 90 second mark does not remove it from the Googlenews cache, or the AOL cache instantly.  Heck, an edit changed in 90 seconds on Wikipedia may show up in caches for days if that is when the crawlers hit the article.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Please highlight the personal attack as i can't see it. I can see comments on your edits, but nothing attacking you. Just another misleading claim to distract from the issue we're all here for. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 14:07, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * imediaethics.org "Seattle Weekly stated the article was up for about thirty minutes"
 * Washington Post "live for 90 seconds, though some commenters claimed it was available online for much longer"
 * Whatculture "The article, which appeared online at 8.50pm UK time and was still available 25 minutes later,"
 * That's what i pulled up on it, no blogs, no mention of bloggers. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 14:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And see wherein it solicits folks to blog on any topic on that site. Currently all contributor positions on WhatCulture are unpaid,  Your articles have the potential to be read by hundreds of thousands of people, Whether you are a brand new contributor with no previous articles published or someone who has published over 1,000 articles, you have the same chance of having your content featured on the homepage.,  In the Summer of 2011, after winning the Sky Movies Blog of the Year award, the site evolved into WhatCulture and now covers a huge range of topics.  Now tell me it is not a blog when it was named Blog of the Year.   Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:48, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The actual Seattle Mail article is at and is identified as a blog - which is ok for a fact-checked newspaper.   Most news outlets had two versions of the same story ready to run - one if Knox was acquitted, and the other if her appeal was rejected. The Daily Mail ran both.  And Jonathan Walczak produced all of two blog entries for all of 2012.  Not a regular contributor to a newspaper which fact chacks his blog entries.   Newspaper blogs are allowed as sources if and only if they represent material under regular editorial control of the newspaper (These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals but use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact checking process).  His own SPS site calls him an "award winning journalist" and lists no awards .  He has zero apparent notability as a "journalist" and I find zer awards, and the "Seattle Weekly" does not call him a staff member.  What I do find is two blog posts in all of 2012.  Sorry folks - the word "blog" is absolutely suited for his post.  Clear enough? Collect (talk) 15:03, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I've not found better sources so i'll drop that obstacle. We still need to do something about your version though, which i find highly POV for praising the Mail. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 09:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The PCC was the group that "praised" the Mail -- we do not remove praise from a governing agency because we think it unmerited. Nor is reporting an official opinion "POV" in such a case.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Erm, when you change a negative event for a news source, which was roundly criticised by many into a positive praising for that news source, then it is highly POV . That's exactly what it currently is and you urgently need to study WP:NPOV. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 13:14, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Jenova20, can you be more specific about which parts you still find problematically POV, ideally providing sources showing that the phrasing is unbalanced, so that we can inspect it more carefully and make progress? Dreamyshade (talk) 06:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a POV piece. I still find the original wording more neutral as:
 * In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers temporarily published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. Mail Online stated that the article was removed within 90 seconds and they apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of fictional quotes and reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable".
 * Obviously i've added a bit before the 90 seconds part to clarify that it is a claim, not a fact and not in Wikipedia's voice. Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 09:53, 22 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Here's the current version again for easier comparison:
 * In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers prematurely published standby articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. MailOnline removed the article within 90 seconds and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error.
 * I'm OK with changing "removed the article within 90 seconds" to "stated that the article was removed within 90 seconds" - the new wording is not too lengthy or contentious. I'm not sure about entirely removing "but commented positively on the handling of the error" - saying that helps provide balanced coverage of the PCC's statement. Another option would be to cut out the whole last part of the sentence in order to not specifically cover the negative or positive comments in the report (cutting out "and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error"). Dreamyshade (talk) 01:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I would agree with either of those (removing the PCC's criticism and praise, or including both and clearly showing that it's their opinion not fact). If we're going to include their opinion on the MailOnline's actions at all, we should have it all. Jenova, Collect, what do you think? CarrieVS (talk) 15:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * In October 2011, MailOnline and several other news sources published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial prematurely. The articles reported an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge had finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict.   Mail Online state the article was removed within 90 seconds and apologized. The article became the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of events and reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error. The article also made claims that Amanda Knox and her partner were put on suicide watch, which were false.    


 * First sentence changed since no newspapers were involved as far as i'm aware. And the notable claims of the event added. What's your opinions? Thanks ツ Je no va  20  (email) 15:47, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for working on a modified proposal. Changing "newspapers" to "news sources" is reasonable. I don't think it's helpful for clarity to change "standby" to "prepared" or move "prematurely" to the end of the sentence - note the comment I quoted about "standby" vs "prepared" at 11:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC): ("All stories are "prepared" in some sense or another"). I'm slightly not in favor of splitting up the sentences, but I don't feel strongly about that since it's just a style thing and not a content issue. Regarding the suicide watch detail, I'd like to repeat what I said above at 10:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC): "The suicide watch detail was in the original MailOnline article, and the PCC complaint mentions it along with other details from the article, but the PCC summary and three of four articles on the complaint don't mention it, so I believe including it would be undue." Dreamyshade (talk) 20:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi all. This discussion seems it's progessing well without volunteer input. Would it be alright if we closed off the discussion here and for it to continue on the article talk page? Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 10:51, 24 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm OK with that. Ideally we could just close this up here with the addition of a couple more neutral opinions on the wording like CarrieVS provided above, since otherwise it might drag on for even longer on the talk page, but dragging on isn't too big of a deal. Jenova20, Collect - what do you think? Dreamyshade (talk) 21:05, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

New York (USA), Bucharest (Romania)
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

On the English Wikipedia page of the very important composer "Liana Alexandra", the relevant links of the prestigious "Vox Novus" (New York City) Composers organization have been removed abusively by the [irrelevant reference removed] user "Biruitorul". The composer Liana Alexandra is one of the notable members of "Vox Novus".

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Edit request

How do you think we can help?

blocking "Biruitorul"

Opening comments by Biruitorul
First, we don't classify editors here by nationality or what have you &mdash; I'm not "the Romanian user 'Biruitorul'", but simply "user Biruitorul". Second, Phorion has no idea where I am physically, although if he wants to assume I'm in Bucharest, let him do so. Third, it's rather amusing to see Phorion, a day-old single-purpose account with a couple dozen edits, calling as a first step for the block of an editor with just about 100,000 edits across thousands of articles over the last nearly seven years. Not that that record immunizes me from such action, of course, but please, let's keep a sense of proportion. Fourth, I don't know this for a fact, but it would hardly surprise me to find out Phorion is Şerban Nichifor &mdash; having edited previously as Snichifor, Serbannichifor, and many, many IPs. He should consider sticking to one account.

Fifth, a "very important composer" is Beethoven, Verdi or Tchaikovsky, not some relatively obscure dilettante, although I grant she is notable under our policies. And sixth, this specific matter has not first been addressed at Talk:Liana Alexandra.

Now, to the substantive portion. This is not a reliable source. It's self-published. And as for this,

no matter how many times you repeat, incantation-like, the phrase "Vox Novus" (talk about a horrible article, by the way), is also not a reliable source, to my eyes. It's a memorial page for a paid member of a professional organization hosted by said organization. If a third party decides this should be kept in, I won't press the point. But really, let's not lose our heads here. - Biruitorul Talk 15:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

New York (USA), Bucharest (Romania) discussion
For convenience, I've added in links to the page and the other user in question - for future reference, 'location of dispute' means the page where disputed edits/content are, and the other user(s) involved in the dispute should be listed. I have also notified user:Biruitorul of this discussion. CarrieVS (talk) 13:02, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Now that everyone's commented, I have a couple of questions.
 * Phorion: This section of the article's talk page appears to be about this topic; the discussion involves two IP users, one beginning 92 and one beginning 109. Are either or both of these you? It's absolutely fine to edit and discuss as an IP, I just want to be clear on who said what.
 * Biruitorol: You say this matter has not been discussed. Am I to understand that the discussion I mentioned above is not about this?

Secondly, I want to remind everyone of some ground rules: CarrieVS (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * We will stay on-topic, and discuss the content, not the editors.
 * In particular, the nationality of any editor is not relevant, nor is the Israel-Palestine conflict, nor are accusations of anti-Semitism or of secretly being anyone.
 * This forum is for resolving content disputes, not conduct. So we will not accuse anyone of vandalism and abuse just because they disagree with us. We will assume good faith.


 * That discussion was mainly about whether this image should be included in Alexandra's biography. It did touch on Vox Novus and romania-on-line.net, but the point was never meaningfully pursued. - Biruitorul Talk 15:56, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, I see. Well, I'm going to close this discussion as it must be discussed extensively on a talk page before coming here. CarrieVS (talk) 16:07, 26 January 2013 (UTC)