Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 74

Subject: Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Most of the suggestions about the Subject: Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hridayeshwar_Singh_Bhati are not even replied. To take action for those suggestion is not happening. A lot of Information supported by reliable and verifiable references was even rejected. The subject is a disabled inventor kid fighting against death.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried my level best to avoid dispute by not editing the article and only giving suggestions at the talk page of the article. But now i am helpless as most of the suggestions are not even replied.

How do you think we can help?

All new sections of the Talk page of the article should be heard/listened and action must be taken as per Wikipedia norms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hridayeshwar_Singh_Bhati

Opening comments by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hridayeshwar_Singh_Bhati
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Subject: Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati discussion
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Translations of The Lord of the Rings
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The Esperanto translation is currently included in Translations of The Lord of the Rings. User:178.49.18.203 is trying to remove it on the grounds that it's unauthorized. That's completely unproven; they've offered not a shred of evidence that would establish that. Even if it is, it's notable enough to be in the article. I'd note the Persian translation, published as it is in a country that does not have copyright relations with the rest of the world, is also likely unauthorized. That doesn't stop it from being the go-to translation for thousands of Iranians.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We've had long discussion on the talk page and many reverts on the article page.

How do you think we can help?

Stop the edit war.

Opening comments by 178.49.18.203
About authorization: I know no acknowledgments from either publisher or estate about authorizing the Esperanto translation. The book itself has no ISBN, no attributions, was published by a small editorial.

Let people translate things for personal use, and print them on demand, but let's not ascribe to them encyclopedic notability. LotR is notable, Auld is notable, but notability isn't inherited automatically by his bootleg translation.

There is a tendency amongst Esperantists to create informational presence beyond statistical limits. WP is not a tool for that, I hope. 178.49.18.203 (talk) 01:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by 145.226.30.43
The editor has a history of hobbyhorse editing on Esperanto-related articles (like here); in this case he originally deleted the mention of the Esperanto translation--and only the Esperanto translation--calling it a "fake" and a "hoax". After being forced to concede that this was not the case (six chapters are even available online), he has now seized on it being "unauthorized", with no evidence, and again targeting only the Esperanto translation with this accusation, in spite of many others being published without ISBN and having no citations to prove their existence.

The remainder of my arguments can be found on the talk page. This is a work that has gone through two editions, in a rare language, making its importance relative to the larger body of literature arguably more significant than that of most translations listed on the page (and its second printing made headlines in the Esperanto press). --145.226.30.43 (talk) 09:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Butsuri
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Translations of The Lord of the Rings discussion
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Hello!

I'm thehistorian10, self-assigned to mediate on your case. I'm going to wait until ALL parties have made opening statements, otherwise I will probably close the case as a non-starter. What I don't know at the moment is what you actually want me to do. There is a specific question above that asks what you want done about this dispute. Until the filing party answers this question, we cannot proceed any further.

--The Historian (talk) 18:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I am also a regular volunteer here at DRN. I'm ordinarily a strong proponent of the idea that a request here ought to be closed unless all significant participants in the discussion at the article weigh in here. But I'm not so sure that Butsuri is a significant participant. S/he only made one comment in that extensive discussion and all her/his edits to the article itself are unrelated to the issue here. Moreover, s/he has not edited Wikipedia at all since June 12. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 19:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)


 * So, I see the case is closed; what was the resolution? To keep the article as it stands now (with the translation included), presumably? --145.226.30.44 (talk) 12:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Railway articles
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The above list is just a tip of the iceberg.Images that i have uploaded are being targeted by only one editor. Despite the fact that some of the pages have had no images,they were nevertheless removed without good reason.We have two sets of opposite opinions but there has been no factual dispute of information. I for one am tired of repeatedly getting into a edit war. Need this dispute to be resolved once & for all.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We have been very much at each others throats & i have had my privileges suspended twice because of it. I have tried to talk to the other editor with civility (most of the time) but little has come out of it. I have on separate occasions explained why i edited obviously wrong information but he has refused to agree. Others have also agreed with me.If what i am doing is so wrong then why except him is no one else undoing my work? There have hardly been such instances.I am just tired of it.

How do you think we can help?

Help decide who is right & who is wrong or why i am unable to resolve this dispute.I do agree that right & wrong is a personal opinion but i request you to look at Mumbai Rajdhani & Surat Railway station,August Kranti Rajdhani,Mulund railway station & his own talk page pages where even factual information has been disputed.Anyone can edit & add info on various pages but 'User blocked for repeating same behaviour' is not a reason for editing especially when the page has no other image. Thank you.

Opening comments by Abhishek191288
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Railway articles discussion
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Vivint
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Oldnoah and Youngnoah continue to remove material about Vivint's legal problems, and to replace it with corporate puffery.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have posted on the talk page but received no response. The complaint at first was that the section was too long. I reduced the section's length in response, but the complaint has not changed.

How do you think we can help?

I would appreciate guidance in dealing with what appears to be a corporate PR office's attempt to sanitize this firm's WP article.

Opening comments by Oldnoah
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Opening comments by Youngnoah
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Vivint discussion
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Edward Snowden
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

An editor did not care for a change in the formatting of a section. I believe that this change significantly enhances the legibility of the content and reduces bloat. The editor simply seems to not like it, having added vague rational based on loosely related policy and guidelines, and criticizing factual elements and missing references instead of just fixing them.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Pulling in other editors for their opinion, changing the categories to address his critiques, etc.

How do you think we can help?

Offer alternatives that would summarize the section's content and give a more detailed outline. Maybe give some kind of feedback on how the editor is interpreting the policies he cites.

Opening comments by Ohconfucius
This request is premature. We are still discussing the issue on the talk page, and none of the other editors of the article have yet weighed in. You don't come to waste time of DR staff over two reverts. I'm pretty confident that in two weeks, the section in question will be down to two small paragraphs without any intervention on my part. --  Ohc  ¡digame!¿que pasa? 05:52, 6 July 2013 (UTC) Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Edward Snowden discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Welcome to DRN. I am a regular editor here. I'm going to take the foregoing response by Ohconfucius to say that he is not willing to participate here at this point in time and close this listing as futile in 24 hours or thereabouts unless he says otherwise. It also appears that several other editors have joined in the discussion and that this listing probably ought to be closed and relisted with them included if it is going to continue, so that they can be properly notified and the listing configured to include them by the listing bot. Regards, TransporterMan  (TALK ) 20:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Judith Barsi
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

AldezD has been quite one heck of an pain to deal with lately. He has been making unnessecary removals of info on Judith Barsi, in which he thinks all of it violates WP:NOTMEMORIAL. While I do agree that the mentions about her "starring" in Jaws are not true and that there were a couple of bits in the article that were trivial, as well as mentioning a fan club is not nessecary, it has come to my conclusion that he clearly needs to read some biography featured and good articles here on Wikipedia and see how comprohensive they are, because his edits are preventing this article from becoming even a B-class article, and he has to understand that most of what he is removing has nothing to do with WP:NOTMEMORIAL.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I've tried to explain to him why the edits he is doing are mostly not right, but he just becomes a dumb person as saying they were nothing more than "I don't agree" arguements.

How do you think we can help?

You can decide on that. Just make it other than blocking me.

Opening comments by
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Judith Barsi discussion
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Hans von Ohain, Frank Whittle
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The editor of the articles user IIIraute refuses to acknowledge verifiable information regarding the invention of the jet engine. The articles are demonstrably incorrect with regard to von Ohain's prior knowledge of Whittle's work. This is a seminal issue in the aviation world. I have provided evdience of first person quotes from von Ohain saying that he had read and critiqued Whittle's patent prior to filing his own but IIIraute continues to quote outdated myths on the basis that they have been repeated often. Secondly he refuses to modify the description that Ohain produced the first operational turbojet. This is fundamentally incorrect. Whittle'engine ran 6 months before Ohain's and Ohain's engine flew only 3 times before being rejected so it was never 'operational' in any definition of the word. I have provided him with specific references for the word 'operational'.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried repeatedly to discuss this on the talk page but he seems not to understand the rules of evidence precedence/primacy. He has accused me of vandalising the page when all I have done is correct the errors and cited my corrections properly. he has now had the pages locked.

How do you think we can help?

IIIraute needs help to understand the rules of evidence. Just because something has been repeated often does not make it true. First person interview statements trump non-specific assertions. Just because something is stated in a reliable source does not make it reliable. That 'reliable' source needs to have an original source that is verifiable. In order to refuse cited new evidence you need to prove that it is fabricated or false.

Opening comments by IIIraute
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Hans von Ohain, Frank Whittle discussion
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Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Kelapstick 2
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

An Anonymous user attempted to ask a question on an RFA. The question was removed but was restored. Later two editors protected the page in a deliberate attempt to keep anonymous users from editing the page even though the page permits IPs to ask questions. The block summaries make no sense. The IPs were blocked without warning and for the first time.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Attempts to restore the question citing AGF and BITE were met with blocking. Given the nature of the two editors who locked the page, it appear they're ready to block and revert any IP that edits the page and says something they don't want to hear

How do you think we can help? Caution users to assume good faith and be patient. I cannot tolerate snap decisions.

Opening comments by ponyo
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Opening comments by 174.236.102.210
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Opening comments by lugia2435
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Opening comments by rschen7754
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Opening comments by Dennis Brown
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Opening comments by Kelapstick
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Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Kelapstick 2 discussion
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Vanniyar
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

In Historical Status of the page it has only following lines.

"In the 19th century the Vanniyar held a low position in both Lower Burma and in South India.[1][2] For example, Dharma Kumar refers to several early 19th century authors who describe the Palli in South India as being higher than untouchables,[1] while Michael Adas says that in Burma the Palli were "socially better off" than the untouchable castes but were "economically equally exploited and deprive"

When I try to remove those lines which are not at all relevant to historical status, the editor(Qwyrxian) warns me for BAN .Those lines no where related to historical status of the vanniyars. Then why it should not be removed ? There is already communal violence going on between vanniyars and Untouchables(Dalits) in Tamil Nadu, India. Proof: 1.http://www.firstpost.com/india/dharmapuri-violence-dalit-boy-who-married-higher-caste-girl-found-dead-930495.html 2.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Dharmapuri_violence 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste-related_violence_in_India

When there is already communal violence between two communities(Vanniyar and Untoucables(Dalits)) in tamil nadu, India. How come an article will be in such a way to add oil to fire. The lines mentioned in "Historical Status" is just comparing vanniyars and dalits(untouchable) in such a way to trigger huge violence between two huge communities in Tamil Nadu state, India. I have removed those controversial lines in order to maintain the peace in India .But the editor Qwyrxian is not accepting my stand and warns me that he may block me. He is saying those lines are from the reliable source (i.e) from the book "Land and Caste in South India: Agricultural Labour in the Madras Presidency During the Nineteenth Century" by Dharma Kumar .When I tried add few lines based on the same book it is rejected by Qwyrxian .The reason being stated as "another editor,one whom I happen to respect a great deal,felt that ur new version is worse"

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have initiated the discussion in talk page. Qwyrxian replies are so biased, he is never allowing any additions in the article even though it is from the reliable source. please involve other editors and administrators to end this vandalism.

How do you think we can help?

Many feel the Qwyrxian is so biased in this article, please restrict his edit on the vanniyar page and guide some neutral editors for this page. The lines which are mentioned in historical status is no where related to history of vanniyars.

Opening comments by Qwyrxian
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. First, User:Sitush, User:MatthewVanitas, and User:Zeeyanwiki should probably all be invited, because they've all also reverted Suryavarman01's removal of sourced content. Second, Suryavarman01's comments about current violence in India are irrelevant; our job is to provide a reference of what reliable sources have said about subjects (it falls under WP:NOTCENSORED if we need to site a policy). As for the one revert where Suryavarman01 added info, the sequence was: Ultimately, I don't think Suryavarman01 is here for the purposes of building an encyclopedia. The warning I issued was because Suryavarman01 has been edit warring on an article covered by the Caste discretionary sanctions. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:52, 9 July 2013
 * 1) Suryavarman01 added the info
 * 2) Sitush, who's read the source in question, said #Suryavarman01 was misrepresenting that source.
 * 3) Suryavarman01 re-added the info without addressing Sitush's concerns
 * 4) I reverted the re-addition, as Suryavarman01 should have gone to talk to discuss rather than trying to force his way. Experience has taught me w/r/t analyzing sources, Sitush is almost always right.

I have initiated the talk with Sitush when my additions was removed and still discussing that in the talk page. When my additions to the wiki is removed and when I raised the conflict did any of the the user who have reverted my edit initiated the issue in talk page. If the other users are not following any QUO, it not fair to blame me. You are saying a source is reliable and if I am adding the few lines to article based on the same source, you have removed my edit , stating the reason that editor whom you respect is feeling that my change was worse. If they feel like they could have raised the issue in the article talk's page. but you and the authors whom you have mentioned never raised an issue or conflict or difference in opinion. but directly reverted my changes.

This is about the community(caste) who are more than 10 million in population in tamil nadu, India , and about the individual person , so Wikipedia and its editors should be responsible enough that the article should not trigger any communal violence.

The book speaks about the Economy of various castes in 19 th century. So in this article we can mention the actual essence of the book, which says that the vanniyars were economically exploited. Instead of that comparing the vanniyar community with the other community(Untoucables) is no where imporatant for this article. If the article is having 300 pages about the vanniyars then are you going to write all the informations ??? No we gonna write only the essence of the book. Ultimately the book speaks about the economical condition of vanniyars in 19 th century.

So the essence of that will be "Vanniyars were economically exploited in 19 th century".

But the lines in the historical status just comparing the vanniyar community with other communities. which is no were adds value to the article and no where providing information to the article. The main motto of wiki is to provide the facts and informations about the various artciles, so the article should have the facts and informations not some irrelavent lines which is not going to improve the article (Even if it is from the reliable source.)--Suryavarman01 (talk) 06:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Vanniyar(Vanniyar) discussion
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Religious views
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

John Adams was a christian and was not a deist. See his own words reference [126]. The following text is an attempt to claim he was not a Christian and should be removed.

and an independent thinker".[116] -- See webster dictionary 1826 "DEIST" Adams was educated at Harvard when the influence of deism was growing there, and sometimes used deistic terms in his speeches and writing.[118] -- without additional comment and only the ones before and after, it appears to be connecting the dots of unfounded evidence. "Adams strove for a religion based on a common sense sort of reasonableness" and maintained that religion must change and evolve toward perfection.[119] -- see his quotes "search the scripture" Fielding (1940) argues that Adams' beliefs synthesized Puritan, deist, and humanist concepts. -- again see his own quotes, this is not justified. Frazer (2004) notes that, while Adams shared many perspectives with deists, "Adams clearly was not a deist. Deism rejected any and all supernatural activity and intervention by God; consequently, deists did not believe in miracles or God's providence....Adams, however, did believe in miracles, providence, and, to a certain extent, the Bible as revelation."[122] Fraser argues that Adams' "theistic rationalism, like that of the other Founders, was a sort of middle ground between Protestantism and deism."[123] -- anything to try and show he was not a christian?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

None, it appears this subject has been brought up before with no resolution.

How do you think we can help?

The article contents, John Adams quote "[126]" solves the dispute.

Opening comments by
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Religious views discussion
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Wikipedia talk:Articles_for_creation/Hadapt,_Inc.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The Hadapt, Inc. page was initially labeled as coming across as too much of an advertisement. I recently made 3 major page edits to remove everything that was "opinion-based" and inserted news article references for anything that might be perceived as subjective information. It is now entirely fact-based but has not been approved. Requests for more specific feedback have not been returned. Based on looking at many other Wikipedia articles of similar companies in the big data industry, I believe the Hadapt, Inc. page is ready to be published.

Best, Jon

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Asked for specific feedback and the requirements I need to meet in order for the page to go public.

How do you think we can help?

I would like to know the specific paragraphs/sentences that need to be changed, or ideally, for the article to be published as is. I believe this is an unbiased representation of the Hadapt company.

Opening comments by Zhaofeng Li
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Opening comments by Theonesean
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Jon, I don't know why you called specifically us to the DRN. If you want to discuss the viability of this article, you should have discussed it on the page, or on individual users' talk pages. This is unnecessary. That being said, I shall treat this as a viable case and make my opening statement. I reviewed this article a few hours ago. As I explained in my AfC comments on the page itself, the page doesn't lend itself to an encyclopedia. My reference to "keeping Wikipedia boring" was a joke. I was quoting, who herself was referring to the "Keep Austin Weird" ad campaign. I laid out my concerns with the article fairly and logically, quoting from the article itself. You, Jon, resumbitted the article three times today without accommodating any of our comments. This is a massive waste of time. Thank you. the one  sean  17:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles_for_creation/Hadapt,_Inc. discussion
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ETools
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I am attempting to update the e-Tools article to discuss the grass-roots effort and public domain support that has started to revive the orphaned software.

MrOllie constantly deletes the edits without citing specific reasons (he is generalized in his comments). Even after I cited chapter and verse as to why the edits meet Wiki standards, he continues to delete the content that has been added.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Extensive discussion has been made on the COI board where MrOllie originally brought the issue. Entry was adjusted to ensure it meets all Wiki requirements and policy. I cut and pasted the actual policy that is claimed to be involved and addressed each element in a discussion to ensure that the other editor understands that it meets all the requirements. In their "opinion" they are still convinced that it doesn't rather than basing their decision on black-letter policy as stated.

How do you think we can help?

(1) As MrOllie did not originally engage me (the original contributor) when he decided to revert my edits, and he is engaged in an edit-war and has a history of this in the past (see others on his talk page) I recommend that he be banned from making further edits.

(2) To prevent him from continuing these changes, can the page be locked so that I manage the edits to it. The software is an orphan software and no activity has taken place in the past few years.

Opening comments by MrOllie
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ETools discussion
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2002 Gujarat violence‎
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Two users have decided that the academic sources I am using to improve this article are "biased" "conspiracy theorists" who "always to create sensation to sell their books" This is obviously not in line with our policies on reliable sourcing. Articles on contentious historical subjects need to use the most reliable and up to date sources available. Not newspaper articles from the period in question.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Extensive discussion on the talk page to no avail, Neo. & Solomon7968 quite simply refuse to allow the article to be rewritten in accordance of NPOV & the views of mainstream academic sources,

How do you think we can help?

Explain to the users that the use of the best quality sources is not a violation of NPOV but is in fact following it.

Opening comments by Dlv999
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Opening comments by Neo.
I sense this is trick by user:Darkness Shine. If neutral users say that his so-called 'academic sources' are OK to be used in the article then he gets license to replace whole article with his POV version. Article is written by community over 10 years and DS calls it Shite. He has created his own version of article here in user space and slowly replacing whole article with his own POV version. Articles on similar incidents of violence like September 11 attacks or Iraq war use media sources. But user is removing reputed media sources and has picked up so-called 'academic sources' to support his POV.

I don't think this issue is discussed enough on talkpage to qualify for this forum. I request uninvolved users to tell DS to discuss his every source on talkpage first. neo (talk) 14:45, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Solomon7968
I am a loss to understand how I am either involved or a participant in a dispute. My only statement in this so called "Dispute" is to pointing out to User:Dlv999 that No where in wikipedia there is any guidelines which states that we have to only use academic sources. I do not think my position is at all disputed and neither have I quite simply refuse to allow the article to be rewritten in accordance of NPOV & the views of mainstream academic sources. The Legend  of Zorro  13:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: Infact I have not touched the disputed article 2002 Gujarat violence once and have edited the talk page once for a reply to User:Dlv999. If User:Darkness Shines agrees with my position that No where in wikipedia there is any guidelines which states that we have to only use academic sources, then I do not think I am a participant in a dispute. The Legend   of Zorro  13:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

2002 Gujarat violence‎ discussion
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Hi I'm PhilKnight, and I'm a volunteer here on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. There is some guidance about using news sources at Identifying reliable sources. The guideline says "For information about academic topics, scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are generally better than news reports." But then goes on to say "News reports may be acceptable depending on the context. Articles which deal in depth with specific studies, as a specialized article on science, are apt to be of more value than general articles which only tangentially deal with a topic." From my perspective, this doesn't go as far as saying they shouldn't be used. PhilKnight (talk) 19:24, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Team Kaobon
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I visit a gym and set up a wikipedia page, after awhile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Kaobon setup their page, edited my page "next generation mma" with a page redirect now my page doesn't appear in wikipedia

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I haven't took any other steps to resolve the matter

How do you think we can help?

I think you could reinstate my old Next Generation MMA page and stop it being redirected to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Kaobon

Opening comments by
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Team Kaobon discussion
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Wolverhampton#Music
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I reverted two edits from an unregistered user special:users/151.26.122.138 which I suspected were vandalism. He/she had removed a photograph and text, both refences to a pop music band member born in the city, stating:

1. "(Non-encyclopaedic person; the member hasn't got an own voice; is already mentioned in the band. Non-encyclopaedic people don't need to be included in a voice.)" and

2. " (Non-encyclopaedic person as precedently said.)"

Following my reversion he/she (with a new unregistered user ID special:users/151.26.92.149) has again removed the section stating "no vandalism, you're wrong. The member's city is already mentioned in the band's page; then, according to Wiki's guidelines, he's not encyclopaedic.)

I find his argument confusing; if nobody can be mentioned in a location article if that birthplace is mentioned in their main article then thousands of edits breach these unspecified Wiki guidelines.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

As the user has not got a fixed IP address I don't see any point in entering into a discussion on the non-existent Talk pages.

How do you think we can help?

As I am a relatively new editor, with limited experience, I don't feel confident enough to proceed further without help, please.

Opening comments by 151.26.122.138
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Opening comments by 151.26.92.149
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Wolverhampton#Music discussion
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douglas karpen
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

This dispute relates to the reliability of sources. Although the editor has made wholesale changes to the article beyond the sources and keeps reverting back to their version.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I've added additional sources that I felt would address the concerns of the other editor: Dallas Morning News, Washington Times, The National Review, and The New American.

How do you think we can help?

Clarify for the parties involved which sources are reliable... and separately address the wholesale change to the article that was made under the guise of "reliable sources". I had hoped we could work together to find a common ground, but the editor was unwilling to find a common ground.

Opening comments by Roscelese
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I don't think this is a DRN case. The sources Lordvolton is adding - LifeNews, the John Birch Society, Operation Rescue, and so on - are obviously not reliable, even less so for BLP sensitive material. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Rebuttal by Lord Volton
Roscelese made unilateral changes to the article without seeking consensus. However, in an attempt to address her concerns I added several reputable sources: The Washington Times, The Dallas Morning News, The National Review, and The New American. Unfortunately, the article was reverted back to her original edit (multiple times). To the extent she only had concerns with the reliability of certain sources those could have been discussed and potentially removed when four additional sources were added.

Instead she imposed unilateral edits and refused to work with me to find a common ground. (see Douglas Karpen talk page, and our talk pages).

Thank you!

Lordvolton (talk) 04:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

douglas karpen discussion
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 * The article has been nominated for deletion, and the discussion is at Articles for deletion/Douglas Karpen. Looking at the way the discussion is going, it seems likely the article will be deleted soon, and this request rendered moot. PhilKnight (talk) 19:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

2002 Gujarat violence
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

I have tried in this discussion on article talkpage to solve the dispute. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview In this section of 2002 Gujarat violence User:Darkness Shines is telling only one side of the story i.e the fire on train was an accident. He says that he has covered other side of the story that the fire on the train was caused by a muslim mob in following text: "Another investigation, which was commissioned by the Gujarat government lead by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party was headed by G. T. Nanavati, a retired Supreme Court judge. This investigation known as the "Shah-Nanavati commission" concluded that the attacks on the train had been pre-planned and was the result of a conspiracy by locals. In a recording by Tehelka Arvind Pandya who is counsel to the Gujarat government, stated that the Shah-Nanavati commission would fall in favour of the BJP, as Shah was their man and Nanavati could be bribed."

This text does not include 'muslim' word at all, but as it points towards muslim involvement, user has done WP:SYNTHESIS by combining two unrelated sources to imply that Shah-Nanavati commission was partial and corrupt. Hence the whole section makes reader believe that the fire on the train was an accident. Other side about involvement of muslim mob doesn't exist to make the section neutral as per NPOV. To support my argument that muslim mob was directly or allegedly involved in fire, I am citing these sources: Human Rights Watch, United States Department of State , European Parliament, Amnesty International , Social Science Research Council , United Nations Human Rights Council , TIME magazine. But user is not allowing to include other side of the story to make the section neutral.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on talk page.

How do you think we can help?

I hope volunteers will be able to convince him to allow edit to balance the section.

Opening comments by Darkness Shines
I have told Neo. on the talk page more than enough times now, we do not duplicate content, the whole pushing of this "Muslim mob" meme is getting disruptive. It is mentioned in the article three times already. Which I would imagine is more than enough times. Stop beating our readers over the head with "Muslim mobs" Darkness Shines (talk) 07:24, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

2002 Gujarat violence discussion
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Azerbaijani people
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The issue lies in the first sentence of the description of the page. I think the ethnic group should be called 'Turkic-speaking people', while the other person thinks that they should be called 'Turkic people'.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Trying to discus and solve this matter on the Talk:Azerbaijani people page. I also reported the matter on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring page, from which I got a response that it should be discussed on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

I am not sure. I tried to discus the matter on the talk page but the other person did not go against my counterarguments. I believe it would be fair if it would be changed to the former description (Turkic-speaking people) if he does not have anything to say to my counterarguments.

Opening comments by Samaksasanian
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this user complained me and User:Qara xan in edit warring‎ page: in 5 June 2013 and 13 June 2013  But admins Did not accept Complaint him. and please Contributions User:Verdia25→ 40 edit and all of the edit is vandalizing and Complaints and conflicts

I edit by valid Sources, my Sources is a Encyclopædia Britannica → Azerbaijani People Explained → Azerbaijani, any member of a Turkic people living chiefly in the Republic of Azerbaijan and in the region of Azerbaijan in northwestern Iran- I explained Talk:Azerbaijani people but this User Does not accept Azerbaijani People is a Turkic people BUT User:Verdia25 say Azerbaijani People is Turkic Speaking people.

I'm editing the source by a Encyclopædia Britannica→ Azerbaijani People--So Azerbaijani people is a Turkic people and Azerbaijani Language from Turkic languages--Thanks--SaməkTalk 18:29, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

What ethnic group Azerbaijani people? Azerbaijani People are Oghuz Turks-- all of the People in the World Come from Of a branch.

Now I have a question, Azerbaijani People is?
 * 1) Turkic people ??
 * 2) Iranian People ??
 * 3) Peoples of the Caucasus ??
 * 4) NOW, Right now, Up now Any user who can read here, say What ethnic group Azerbaijani people????

I Have a very valid sources and added Azerbaijanis People article;→

in the end→ say to me Azerbaijani People is a Turkic people?? Or Iranian People ?? Or Peoples of the Caucasus ??--SaməkTalk 13:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people discussion
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Hello! I am thehistorian10", a volunteer here. Thanks for the opening statements - they are of use. I think we can sort this dispute rather quickly. First, could Samaksasanian please answer this question: Is the Encyclopedia Britannica your ONLY source in this article, or do you use others with the Encyclopedia being your primary source? --The Historian (talk) 19:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I am also a regular editor here at DRN. The dispute over whether the lede of this article should say "Turkic", "Turkic-speaking", or simply "ethnic group", and what part Encyclopedia Britannica should play as a source in the article for this issue and for other issues, goes back to at least 2006 and involves many, probably dozens, of editors. Discussion of those subjects can be found in all 9 of the talk page archive pages for the article. Resolution of the dispute between just these two editors will be futile, as new participants in the debate will merely come along tomorrow. I am of the opinion that the only acceptable way to resolve this so as to bring stability to the article on, at least, this point is via request for comments. If a RFC closes with a clear consensus as to how this should be worked out (which, admittedly, is anything but certain), then at least a new clear consensus will have to be formed in order to change it in the future. Resolving disputes between the editors du jour is merely assisting axes to be ground further. I recommend that this be closed in favor of a RFC. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 19:32, 1 July 2013 (UTC)


 * First of, thank you for your comments! I hoped that the dispute would be solved, as this was my third report on this matter. The first two reports were on page Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. The first report was ignored and in the second one I was asked to resolve this in the 'talk page' which I already tried. I read the 'request for comments' page but I did not quite understand what I should do (English is by the way not my first language). Should I make a similar report like I did here on the page Requests for comment/Request board? Thank you. Verdia25 (talk) 11:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't quite agree that this would be suitable for RFC, especially since you have already tried there, so I'm going to keep it open here. Now I've seen Samaksanian's response to my question (I'd prefer that he posted it in the "discussion"), I'd like to ask the same question to Verdia25 - what sources do you use to say that Azeris are not Turkic? By the way, Samaksanian, other than merely citing books, what specific pages do you use from those books? Also, whilst I'm thinking about it, what are the "agreed facts" - that is, what do the Parties agree on? Obviously, if parties agree on quite a lot, this means that our work here won't take too long, and if there is no agreeement whatsoever, this will make this process longer than necessary. It is therefore in Parties' interests to provide information on any agreements between them that are relevant to this dispute. --The Historian (talk) 15:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I did not have any sources that I used to say that they are not Turkic. I think that the original description used prior to May 31st was better because the new one, Turkic people, could be confusing to some people that the Azerbaijani are of Turkic origin, while in the wikipedia article it is state that they are of mixed origin. With the description 'Turkic speaking people' it is clear to all readers that they speak a Turkic language. I think Samaksanian and me both agree that the Azari language that Azerbaijani speak is, as stated on wikipedia, a language of the Turkic language family. To Samaksasanian, this isn't really a discussion on whether they are Turkic, Iranian or Caucasus people. It is on whether the description 'Turkic people' or 'Turkic speaking people' should be used. Verdia25 (talk) 14:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

All of the Ethnic groups Included total Ethnic groups. only write one total Ethnic groups. Personal Argument Prohibited--SaməkTalk 12:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Based on the fact that Samaksasanian is now not making sense, and since the entire dispute is about whether or not the Azeri people are Turkic speaking peoples, I think I know how we can go about resolving this. Azerbaijani language states that the "language family" of Azeri is "Turkic". The Turkic languages page states that Azeri is descended from the Weset Oghuz branch of Turkic. Azerbaijan states that the official language of Azerbaijan is Azeri, and, the articles above show that it is descended from the Turkic family. So, I think that the Azeris are Turkic speaking, and User:Verdia25 is correct in his primary assertion.

--The Historian (talk) 16:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Azerbaijani people is a Turkic people and Azerbaijani Language from Turkic languages. My Persian countrymen in Iran are Persian People is a Iranian People and Persian Language from Iranian languages.Sam?kTalk 18:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * They may be Turkic people I don't deny that, but the original description 'Turkic speaking people' was valid too and I don't think it was needed to change it. The problem with the description 'Turkic people' is that it could be confusing to some people, as if the origin or ethnicity may be Turkic, while it is only the Azerbaijani's language that belongs to the Turkic language family; origin and ethnicity is mixed. There won't be any confusion if it would be 'Turkic speaking people'.Verdia25 (talk) 13:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please, Personal Argument Prohibited-Sam?kTalk 18:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Dispute reopened, Parties informed. --The Historian (talk) 19:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Dougweller I'm not sure where this comment goes, so I'll put it here. I came here because I protected a page for 2 days due to a dispute involving one of these editors and the general subject matter. There is some confusion here about the status of encyclopedias such as the Britannica. As a tertiary source it should be avoided in favor of specialist academic sources for articles such as these. We've discussed this before, eg. (As an aside, we even have Errors in the Encyclopædia Britannica that have been corrected in Wikipedia although that's not the major reason it shouldn't be used. This seems to have been a factor in this dispute. Dougweller (talk) 16:43, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Question: Is this still an active dispute? I see that there's been no formal RfC that has been advertised at appropriate wikiprojects. Also I read (in a very loose construction) the possibility of reading the WP:ARBAA2 riot act as it's a dispute over Azerbaijan and ethnicity. I strongly advise that editors follow the forms of civil dispute resolution. Hasteur (talk) 15:59, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Digvijaya Singh
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Please scroll down on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Digvijaya_Singh and see the four sections "Hemant Karkare Edit wrongly deleted by User:Sitush", "Edit on Political Career of Digvijay wrongly deleted by User:Sitush", "Corruption Allegation Edit wrongly deleted by User:Sitush", "Views on Religion and Religious Extremism wrongly deleted by User:Sitush". The first three sections deal with edits variation of which had been in place on the WP:BLP of Digvijaya Singh ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digvijaya_Singh ) for a long time spanning as much as a few years as per my knowledge. The reasons User:Sitush keeps giving for deleting all the edits seem spurious to me. For instance, the "Hemant Karkare" edit dominated Indian political news at one time. Just because it is an unimportant topic today does not mean it has lost its relevance. The reason for its importance is that it concerns terrorism which is a subject of national security. Digvijay claimed that before he got killed by Muslim Pakistani terrorists, Karkare--a senior police officer--had called him and complained about the threats he was facing from hindu extremists. This claim of Digvijay was disputed by some people and an effort was made to discredit him. The second section deals with a corruption allegation against Digvijay which involved correspondence between Singh when he was Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh and the BJP Prime Minister Vajpayee in which he eventually came out clean. In view of other corruption allegations against him, it is important to keep this edit in place lest people pre-judge the existing corruption allegations against Digvijay. Regarding the Political career edit, there is one reference (User:Sitush has been claiming there are no references) and certainly more references can be given for this important edit which gives useful information about Digvijay's political career. With respect to the edit "Views on Religion and Religious Extremism", please see the talk page discussion.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

There is nothing to discuss because User:Sitush and I seem to have completely opposite views on these edits. It does not help that both of us think the other to be biased.

How do you think we can help?

I would like you to judge whether User:Sitush is right in removing the edits in question in toto, or whether those edits or variations of those edits can be put back. I will accept whatever decision you take.

Opening comments by Sitush
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 * Soham has not discussed on the talk page. I opened a discussion and they responded by opening numerous other sections and basically dumping the removed statements into them. There are also other parties who have been active on that talk page in the last few months and who have not had a chance to contribute. Finally, while some of those parties have suggested bias on the part of Soham, the fact that I have been accused of bias at Narendra Modi against the BJP/for the INC and am now being accused in this DRN (with no prior intimation) of bias for the BJP/against the INC simply suggests that, in fact, I am neutral. This request for resolution is way too premature. - Sitush (talk) 21:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Digvijaya Singh discussion
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Talk:Anthony Fucilla
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Long story short, I came across the article as a speedy & declined it as asserting very slight notability and opened an AfD. I'd made some edits that asserted more notability, but not enough to keep the page. The two sole RS on the article were actually added by myself. Soon after an IP came on the page & tried editing, which removed not only the AfD template, but also the few sources I'd managed to find. Their edits were reverted by multiple editors. The IP in question has been posting repeatedly on the board making various assertions at notability, but never providing anything of any true value that would help keep the article. I've tried nicely pointing things out, but the IP editor has grown more increasingly hostile and has accused me of specifically having a vendetta against the article's subject. Another editor has tried to step in, but the personal attacks keep coming in against me because I was the one who opened the AfD. (No attacks against the editor that initially nominated it for deletion, however, which is a small blessing.)

I think at this point we need other people to step in and mediate. I don't think that this is really quite necessary for the admin noticeboard, although I did tell the IP that he can feel free to post there if he truly believes that I am editing with a specific goal to delete the article because I personally have something against Fucilla. I've warned the user about making such accusations, but I don't think it's getting through to him. It's to the point where I've had to warn him that his actions could end up with him getting blocked for making personal attacks.


 * Update: I notice that the page is currently tagged as a speedy, so this may be unnecessary. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   10:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I've tried calmly explaining guidelines for notability and sources to him. Others have as well.

How do you think we can help?

Getting a third or fourth set of eyes can help a lot, as this user seems dead set in the belief that I'm only saying these things because of some mistaken belief that I want the article gone for personal reasons rather than notability guidelines. I personally think that the user is dangerously close to deserving a temporary editing block, but I know this board doesn't do this sort of thing.

Opening comments by 86.173.165.62
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Sam Sailor
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I came across the article and reflinked it, subsequently trying to help with adding an infobox, a bibliography heading etc. hoping that the article creator or other editors could beef up with some references. That has not been the case. IP editor 86.173.165.62 has on the talk page repeatedly claimed that "news papers" and "news shows" exist that can support notability. I have offered to try to work such sources into the article would he simply post the bare URLs on the talk page. He has posted nothing. Tokyogirl has shown great patience and explained procedures and policies for IP editor 86.173.165.62. In return she has gotten very little but rudeness, shouting, and amusingly (or not) a sung quote from Have You Ever Seen the Rain?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam Sailor (talk • contribs) 11:28, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Anthony Fucilla discussion
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Morgellons


4 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Current scientific consensus from large, influential organizations like the CDC is that individuals with Morgellons have a delusional belief that they are infested with parasites. There is general agreement across all parties that this is indeed the scientific consensus. There is a proposal to add new content to the article; the policy cited in support of the addition is WP:NPOV. The new proposed content discusses a new theory for the origin of Morgellons, stating that there is an actual infectious parasite. This issue basically is that many editors do not agree that the sources cited meet WP:MEDRS, the medical sourcing guideline. There is general agreement that if there were WP:MEDRS-compliant reliable secondary sources supporting the new theory that such content could be included. But many editors state that as the sources are not reliable, and because WP:NPOV only applies to views presented in reliable sources, the WP:NPOV policy cannot be used in support of including the actual parasite theory.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

LOTS and LOTS of discussion on the Talk page

How do you think we can help?

Determine consensus as to whether the sources proposed are indeed authoritative WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary sources such that per WP:NPOV the mention of the parasite theory is warranted.

Opening comments by Erythema
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. In a nut shell. The actual dispute is more complicated than described by the others involved with this dispute indicate. Morgellons is a controversial illness. There are 2 POVs represented in medical literature. This is evident with a PubMed search. 1 POV is that the illness is delusional in etiology. The other is that it is not and there are publications indicating that it is caused by a bacterial infection. This bacterium, Borrelia, is related to syphilis and thus explains the psychiatric manifestations experience by some patients. The predominant POV is that it is delusional, however the POV that it is infectious in etiology represents a significant minority POV and thus it deserves proportional representation. The problems are 2 fold: One, content from the infectious POV has been blocked, even for one paragraph to be included, even while leaving the existing text untouched: Two, there is a great deal of bias in the current article. It has been carefully edited to maximize the opinion that it is delusional in etiology. The references are largely cherry-picked and do not follow WP:MEDRS policy. Over half of the references come from Popular Press, i.e. newspaper articles, TV interviews and the like. One of these is even an interview with an "anonymous dermatologist" in Popular Mechanics magazine and lacks verifiability, as do the rest. These are clearly not appropriate secondary sources. Those that are from peer-reviewed medical journals are predominantly opinion pieces -- again they are not appropriate secondary sources. The remaining few are original research. This is an area of medicine undergoing active research and as such there are not many (if any) suitable secondary sources. I have proposed to add ONE small paragraph from the infectious POV on the grounds that a significant minority view needs to be represented for NPOV. They are original research, but WP:MEDRS allows original research when secondary sources are lacking. The current article has used a few original research papers. WP:MEDRS encourages the use of on-line medical journals as they can be accessed by readers, but I have been told that they are unreliable (and numerous other things). There have been false statements made that are damaging to the reputations of the medical journals publishing papers representing the infectious POV that I find offensive and objectionable. NPOV cannot be achieved as long as double standards of policy application are applied to the two viewpoints. I have repeatedly asked for reasonable and objective justification, but have yet to receive an answer that makes sense. Mostly when I bring up a valid point there is no response at all. I am a new user and WP indicates I should be welcomed and treated with patience. Instead I have been bullied and treated with hostility. If fair and proportionate representation of both POVs cannot be achieved then the current article should be deleted on the grounds that the references used to not meet WP policy.Erythema (talk) 14:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)Erythema

Opening comments by Drgao
This dispute relates to the article on Morgellons disease, a disease involving skin symptoms and mental symptoms.

A severe non-neutrality exists in this article, as I now describe.

Amongst researchers, there are two competing views on the nature of Morgellons disease: viewpoint (1) says that Morgellons is a real skin disease manifesting body-wide skin lesions and other skin symptoms, likely caused by an infection, and also involving some concomitant mental symptoms; viewpoint (2) says that Morgellons is not a real physical disease at all, but purely a psychiatric condition called delusional parasitosis, in which sufferers self-inflict their skin wounds.

This dispute relates to the fact that viewpoint (1) gets almost no mention at all in the article, and viewpoint (2) not only dominates the vast majority of the article, but furthermore, viewpoint (2) is presented as if it is an established fact.

WP:WEIGHT requires that articles represent all significant viewpoints published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. So in order to determine the precise prominence of each of the two viewpoints, I have performed a full scientific literature survey of reliable sources, and by enumerating all relevant studies, I counted that there is 1 secondary study, and 9 primary studies supporting viewpoint (1), and 3 secondary studies, and 15 primary studies supporting viewpoint (2).

You can the full details of all the studies I counted up HERE.

Thus from these figures which quantify the prominence of each viewpoint, it is clear that viewpoint (1) should be given around ⅓ of the article text space, and viewpoint (2) around ⅔ of the article text space. But at present, viewpoint (1) occupies only a few percent of the text space.

Myself (Drgao) and editor Erythema say this severe imbalance in the article completely flouts the NPOV requirements of Wikipedia, but all the other editors disagree with us, and they prevent us from adding new material to the article. Drgao (talk) 02:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

MInor updates made on July 7th. Drgao (talk) 21:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by TechBear
I had gotten involved with the article in late May, in response to one editor trying to bring in sources from journals known to be "pay to publish." Soon after, a new editor stepped in with a different set of references, asserting that they showed the established scientific consensus to be wrong and demanding that the article be rewritten accordingly. I and others pointed out the problems in new editor's sources; rather than seek out better sources, this person fell to ad hominem attacks and accusations that Wikipedia was trying to "suppress important information" (actual quote.)

I am willing to concede that the current consensus may be wrong; it certainly would not be the first time that long-standing conclusions fell to new research. However, it is my view that any evidence attempting to overturn an established position must meet a high standard of quality, and that this is especially important with regards to medical science, where the well being and even lives of people may hang in the balance. The evidence must come from reputable research sponsors, be reviewed by research experts in the field who have the skill and expertise to evaluate the methodology and conclusions, and be published in a well respected journal. It is my opinion that the sources this editor wishes to use simply do not meet this minimum standard of quality, and therefore should not be used as the basis for rewriting established consensus.

TechBear &#124; Talk &#124; Contributions 04:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Arthur Rubin
I agree with the opening comments by Scray; however I have an objection to the formulation of the dispute. It's not "new proposed content" or a "new theory". The theory was first proposed by Mary, and it's not even new to the article. It was removed from the article when no WP:MEDRS sources could be found. They still haven't been found. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Dbrodbeck
There are simply no good WP:MEDRS secondary sources that say that any of these WP:FRINGE views have any use. If we include this material we would be giving WP:UNDUE weight to these fringe ideas. Many of us have tried, in vain, to explain these policies to the couple of WP:SPAs who want this material included. The ad hominem attacks and personal attacks in general, while they have toned down some, did not help matters. This material does not belong in the article, that is the bottom line. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Dawn Bard
I think the article is appropriately neutral and well sourced, and I think any objective review of the page and the talk page with WP:MEDRS, WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE in mind will support this. Sailsbystars below has presented some excellent points. This odd press release, which essentially alleges a Wikipedia conspiracy to keep the truth about Morgellons hidden, predated some of the contentious editing and discussions that have led up to this dipute resolution. I think what we really have here is a broad, policy-based consensus that the article should stand as it is for now. A couple of very passionate, largely single-purpose editors disagree with this consensus, but their efforts on the talk page have failed thus far to change the larger consensus. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 17:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Zad68
My view is that the sources offered to support the "genuine infestation/infection" view are insufficient to rise above WP:FRINGE and it would give undue prominence or legitimacy to a non-accepted fringe view to include in the article. There have been two groups of sources offered. The first included three sources, listed in the discussion here. The comments regarding the unworthiness of f1000research and the Dove Press journals there are accurate: the reliability of the journal articles doesn't meet WP:MEDRS and are not MEDLINE indexed, or even PubMed indexed at all. The list of sources given here is an excellent and comprehensive list of PubMed-indexed articles regarding the subject, and the editor who put it together is to be thanked, but the analysis offered is not in line with consensus interpretation of WP:MEDRS. Per policy, primary sources are not to be used to support a WP:DUEWEIGHT (part of WP:NPOV) argument. So, looking only at secondary sources, we have three up-to-date MEDLINE-indexed secondary sources stating Morgellons is delusional; we have a single MEDLINE indexed secondary source from 2006 that does not meet WP:MEDRS per WP:MEDDATE. This leaves three secondary sources supporting delusional, zero supporting infection. (This list also does not include other sources like the CDC, which also does not support infection.) As there are no WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary sources supporting infection, per policy the article should not cover it. (Note I will be away most of the weekend, back maybe Saturday or Sunday night.)  19:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Scray
I hope that this process will help us move past the current cycle, which consumes energy (and has often included ad hominem attacks) but does not seem to be progressing. The article currently addresses the minority viewpoint that Morgellon disease has an infectious etiology, with due weight considering the strong consensus in high-quality sources that this is a delusional parasitosis (rather than infection) syndrome. Primary reports in low-quality journals should not be used to refute the strong consensus in high-quality secondary sources. -- Scray (talk) 04:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Garrondo
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Judgeking
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Sailsbystars
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. So I've never been to one of these before, but I think the most relevant thing I can do is quote my comparison of the proposed sources and existing sources for the article, and why the former should not have undue weight in the article. Sailsbystars (talk) 07:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

... there are some commonalities in all science fields. Dubious research gets published all the time (hence the phrase "publishing in a peer reviewed journal is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for acceptance") in every field. There are several common threads of fringe research that cross all disciplines of research:
 * 1) Fringe research is often published in less well-known journals.  The disease associations for Morgellons are published in Clin Cosmet Investig Dermatol.  and f1000research which may or may not have rigorous peer review.  The CDC study was published in PLoS One, arguable one of if not the most prestigious medical journal.  Multiple other studies have appeared in the American Journal of Psychiatry, the official journal of the psychiatric society supporting a psychological diagnosis.
 * 2) If research is accepted, it will be cited by other people.  Hinkle 2011 has 9 citations by other groups.  Pearson 2012 (CDC study) has 13 citations by other groups.  Middelveen and Stricker 2011("Filament formation associated with spirochetal....") has 7 citations, but of those only two of those aren't self-citations, and those two both disagreed with the conclusion of the study.  Lack of favorable external citations is bad.
 * 3) Conversely, excessive self-citation is usually not a sign of a healthy research programme
 * 4) Lastly, when the researchers have to make a press release railing against wikipedia's biases in a desperate attempt to get included in the article, that's usually not a good sign (and that's actually how I came to  be interested this article)
 * So that's how I can evaluate, using objective criteria, how accepted an idea is within a scientific field, even one I don't know much about. So how could you convince me this infectious etiology material should be included?  Showing me some citations to their studies from outside their research group by other research groups that support their findings would be a good start, and I think would be fairly persuasive to other editors on this page as well.  Sailsbystars (talk) 21:40, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by BullRangifer
An important aspect of this dispute is whether advocates of a fringe idea (that Morgellons is a real dermatologic condition, rather than a form of delusional parasitosis) can use Wikipedia to promote that POV as a mainstream POV, or of at least equal worth to the mainstream scientific POV on the subject (which is that it's a form of delusional parasitosis). They believe that NPOV is violated when they are not given equal due weight. Sorry, but that's not true. They fail to understand NPOV.

They constantly use primary studies to make their point, in violation of MEDRS. This is not the place to make cutting edge pronouncements. For one thing, being on the cutting edge means you're on the wrong side of the knife. Yes, that's a joke, but for Wikipedia, it's the way we apply our sourcing policies. We are always supposed to be "behind the curve," never on the leading edge of publishing new facts. IF (that's a big IF) this ever turns out to be proven to be a new dermatologic condition, the major dermatology organizations will state that fact in unequivocal terms.

When that happens, and not before then, the POV pushed by these believers will have to remain the fringe position, in opposition to the mainstream one, which happens to be that these editors are pushing a delusional belief. Until then, their POV will be documented, but not given equal weight with the current scientific consensus. The article content and due weight balance will indeed change when large literature reviews that are not affiliated with those who make a living from pushing this fringe POV start to clearly document it as a new disease. Independent replication of research results must happen again and again. Then we'll definitely document that fact, and Morgellons will be presented here at Wikipedia as a new disease. It will happen, but a short time AFTER it happens in the real world. These editors must be patient and stop disrupting Wikipedia. They are a huge time sink and need to be blocked, or, at the least, immediately topic banned.

That several of them are delusional happens to be a fact, since several of them have admitted to being sufferers, and even admitted to having mental health issues. Too bad about that, but this is not the place to push a POV based on primary sources, often from "paid to publish" sources, or fringe scientists affiliated with the modern creator of the term "Morgellons". -- Brangifer (talk) 06:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by 137.111.13.200
The research group that released the content that is being discussed in this section was funded through a foundation that solicits donations ostensibly from Morgellons sufferers. There is therefore a financial interest in the dissemination of this particular group's content. The articles themselves are primary sources, which significantly contradict other primary and secondary sources. This is most likely due to methodological differences which are best judged through secondary sources, and thus we should wait until these become available. The author of the study discussed authored a press release targeting editors on the Morgellons wikipedia page. I am lead to believe it likely that this author is pressuring editors on the talk page to include their work on the main page, under the username "Erythema". The anonymity of wikipedia users is an important dimension, however if someone is trying to insert their own work into an article, especially when that work is challenged as a reliable source, then the potential conflict of interests should be addressed. I don't think avoiding the question serves anyone's purposes in this case.137.111.13.200 (talk) 04:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by 198.199.134.100
At this point, I no longer find it reasonable to assume good faith on the part of the editors favoring the inclusion of fringe research. One of them has now created a sockpuppet account to try and "mediate" the dispute. Erythema shows strong signs of actually being one of the fringe researchers who recently issued a press release decrying Wikipedia's policies (and did not deny it when directly asked). Drgao is operating under the idea that because the concensus of the medical community now supports the existence of some other condition that Drgao suffers from, we should include fringe research about Morgellons; Drgao also repeatedly misrepresents studies or quotes from studies that do not support his views as doing so and even claimed that an opinion piece published well before any modern primary sources about Morgellons (the other two predate the current scientific method, one predates Pasteur) was a "secondary source". Neither has contributed to any other Wikipedia article. There are one or two other editors in favor of fringe research, but they don't appear to be meaningfully contributing to the discussion. I realize the named editors sincerely believe Morgellons is a non-delusional condition, but deliberate dishonesty is not a valid method of seeking editor concensus. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 00:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Correction: Drgao does get involved in editing other pages on similar/related topics. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 02:45, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
 * Hitherto uninvolved editor who stummbled across this DRN. I've taken the time to read the extensive discussion on the article talk page and examone the sources, and I have to agree that all of the sources proposed for the fringe view fall far short of WP:MEDRS. In short, there is not mention of the fringe "research" in reliable medical sources. Most of it has been published in non-peer reveiwed publication that would never be read by mainstream medical researchers in the first place. The material that Drgao and Erythema would like to add to this article is thus unreliably sourced, and violates WP:NPOV, especially WP:WEIGHT and WP:GEVAL. It clearly falls under WP:FRINGE. I just see a lot of deadhorse argumentation and WP:IDHT on the article talk page, and I'm really having a hard time assuming good faith. I don't see much point in further discussion unless WP:MEDRS sources are produced. Consensus on the talk page is already pretty clear that the sources produced so far are unreliable, and I agree. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Please note the following ANI discussion regarding this DRN: Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents. 15:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Please wait until the problem with mediation is sorted out, and for the process to be formally restarted. We cannot continue this discussion while the disruption continues. 15:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Invoking mediation controls: For the present time, in light of the controversy pending here, I am assuming the role of mediator here and invoking the rules set out at MEDIATION to exercise the right to edit this discussion as if it were my own user talk page, which includes the right to refactor, strike, or remove any edits which I feel are inappropriate. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 15:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening statements: Editors who have not yet made opening statements should feel free to go ahead and make them in their respective sections, above, and are advised to do so as promptly as possible. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 16:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Update: It would appear that InLoveNoi has indeed withdrawn as a DRN volunteer (actually, has ceased editing since being told by a sysop to withdraw or be blocked). I have de-collapsed, but left closed, the foregoing discussion and will await further opening statements. I have, further, redacted via strikeout all procedural discussions above so as to leave only discussions about the substance of the dispute. While the remaining discussions are premature and I will not allow them to continue at this time, they are what they are and they should not be removed from the record. If discussion does proceed, then we can give them as much or as little weight as they may deserve. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 19:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Further update: InLoveNoi is now indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet. — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 21:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I have just deleted a comment by Drgao, a party to this dispute, added to the discussion here before this case was opened for discussion. I — reluctantly — retained the one by Dominus Vobisdu, though I moved it into the closed section, because s/he was not a party to the dispute. All further comments of a nonprocedural nature in this "Talk:Morgellons discussion" will be summarily deleted if made before this case is opened for discussion. — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 00:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I have now deleted all the preliminary edits by and  as both accounts have been indefinitely blocked as sockpuppets of blocked user . In the process, I have also deleted some response edits by legitimate participants here, but all that were deleted were merely responsive to the attempts by Ryanspir to manipulate this process and did not make any substantive comments on the substance of this case. If anyone objects, please drop a note on my user talk page and we'll discuss working your comments back in. Regards,  TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 16:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Inquiry to all parties
We're waiting for the last two listed editors to give opening statements, but while we're waiting I need to raise this issue: The DRN guidelines say:"Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute."As long as I've been doing dispute resolution, I have no doubt that I have at least crossed paths with some of the editors in this case. I will represent to you that to the extent that I have done so I have not formed any opinions or impressions which would cause me to be biased either against them or in their favor. Indeed, I don't have any particular memories of any of you except that some of your usernames seem familiar to me. That does not mean that I have not had strong interactions and even confrontations or commiserations with some of you. It only means that I don't remember them if I did. If any come back to mind, I will immediately disclose them here. (If anyone wants to check my prior interactions with everyone here, more power to you: You can use the tool here to do so. Let me know if you find anything.} But my point is this: If you want to lodge an objection to my further participation, do it now, not later, unless I subsequently discuss a connection. Also, if any of you have had interactions with me, good or bad, which might bias me please say so now and I'll specifically check those out. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 21:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC) PS: Feel free to answer or address this inquiry, below, but do not begin discussing the dispute yet. — TM


 * I have no issue with you moderating. Can we get started?  We're only missing statements from Garrondo and Judgeking, and their involvement in this discussion at the article Talk page was minimal.  I count only 3 comments from Garrondo, all over 1 month old, and Garrondo has been editing since the DRN notice so it does not look like Garrondo is interested.  I count only 2 comments from Judgeking, most recent was 10 days ago, Judgeking hasn't edited since 27 June.  And based on their involvement at the article, their viewpoints are already being represented here by many other editors already.    16:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm inclined to feel the same way. I'm going to give them until tomorrow to weigh in or for anyone else to lodge an objection to my mediation and if neither occurs, we'll probably forge ahead. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 19:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Initial ground rules
The following are adopted pursuant to MEDIATION, and are subject to supplementation, revision, or revocation at any time.


 * You must check this page every day you edit Wikipedia (and at least once every 48 hours if you don't have an edit during that time) and respond to any inquiries which I make. If you're going to be unavailable for awhile and unable to check this and/or respond, say so and I'll decide whether to put this on hold or move forward without you.
 * At least for the present time, this will move forward in a question and answer manner in which I ask questions or make comments and request you to respond. Some inquiries may be to individuals, others may be to groups or factions. Do not respond to or comment upon responses or answers made by others unless I request it. If you do, I reserve the right to delete those responses. Only answer the question that I ask, do not jump ahead or say anything else. Again, I reserve the right to delete any answers which go beyond the questions that I ask.
 * Be civil. Do not comment about one another. If you wish to comment or complain about another user's conduct, motivations, identity, or anything else, take it to an administrator (I'm not one, by the way), to WP:RFC/U, or to WP:ANI, but don't raise it here (do drop a note on my user talk page that you're doing that, however, as I may want to put a hold on the proceedings here until that conduct matter is resolved.) Listen up: This rule will be strictly enforced. Don't say, "I didn't mean it that way" or "I was just angry", just don't do it. Comments made in violation of this rule will be deleted the first time; the second time, either you or me will be leaving this discusion.
 * Except for Judgeking and Garrondo (who can still make opening statements), the opening statements are now closed. Do not change or supplement them further.
 * I tend to be courteous and say "please" before requests, instructions, or rules. Do not take my use of "please" to mean that what follows it is optional. Indeed, none of my requests, instructions, or rules are optional; if I mean something to be optional, I'll make that unmistakeably clear with a qualifier such as, "You don't have to answer this if you don't want to" or "This isn't required, but" or something like that.
 * The IP editors must keep up with the IP's they're editing from and let us know here if they change. This isn't required, but I would strongly prefer that they create accounts, identify them with their IP, and sign in to participate here.

Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 15:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Beginning the mediation
'Read the "Initial ground rules" section, above. Your continued participation in this mediation constitutes complete acceptance of the foregoing rules.'

As I understand it, this is a NPOV dispute with certain editors wishing to include material in the article saying that Morgellons is an actual, as opposed to mental, disease or condition. Other editors oppose that inclusion because they claim that the sources are insufficiently reliable to include it. Although one editor, Erythema, also claims that the existing material about Morgellons being a mental condition is also inadequately sourced, I do not see that as the primary matter in dispute in this case except perhaps as a question of what balance to give the competing views if the real-disease theory proves to be includable. From my point of view, to try to decide how much space and/or weight to give the real-disease theory before deciding whether or not it can be included at all is putting the horse before the cart and I do not intend to discuss or allow discussion of that issue until the other issue is resolved, at which time we may go on to the proper-weight issue.


 * Inquiry #1 @Everyone: As I analyze it, Erythema and Drgao support the inclusion of the material in question. All other participants here oppose it due to lack of adequate sources. Please let me know, below, if I've got that wrong. Don't answer at all if I have it right.
 * Inquiry #2 @Everyone: If there any sources whose reliability is in question other than the following, please list them below:
 * The mystery of Morgellons disease: infection or delusion? (2006) MEDLINE Full paper
 * Morgellons: a novel dermatological perspective as the multisystem infective disease borreliosis (2013).
 * Association of spirochetal infection with Morgellons disease (2013).
 * Characterization and evolution of dermal filaments from patients with Morgellons disease (2013)
 * [ Morgellons Disease: A Chemical and Light Microscopic Study (2012)].
 * Filament formation associated with spirochetal infection: a comparative approach to Morgellons disease (2011)
 * Delusions may not always be delusions (2010, Editorial) MEDLINE Full paper
 * Morgellons disease: Analysis of a population with clinically confirmed microscopic subcutaneous fibers of unknown etiology (2010)
 * Morgellons disease, illuminating an undefined illness: a case series (2009)
 * Myiasis, fillan, and the morgellons (1946) MEDLINE Full paper


 * Inquiry #3 @Everyone: There are three ways we can approach this mediation:
 * Method A (default) — Classic Mediation: A traditional mediation where I try to get everyone to come to agreement.
 * Method B — Opinion: I can read all the arguments and merely provide a third-party neutral opinion, which everyone is free to accept or reject, but which closes the mediation on the point on which I opine.
 * Method C — Arbitration by agreement: Same as #2, but everyone involved here agrees that they will abide by my opinion and quit discussing the issue in dispute until something changes in the real world (for example, new studies or sources being done and becoming available) which renders it inapplicable.
 * We'll use Method A unless everyone prefers B or C, though I reserve the right to use B on my on volition if and when I think it becomes appropriate. Method C would require an affirmative agreement from everyone. So in the space below, just indicate which one you would prefer. Just put in something like ":A — ~" or ":B then A then C, in that order — ~"

Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 15:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Responses to Inquiry #1:
 * The material dramatically deviates from previous studies, and it is questionable whether it would have passed the orthodox peer-review stages of mainstream journals (due to the combination of methodology and conclusions). However, it is incorrect to suggest that this automatically renders the conclusions false. It requires the adjudication of further research and impartial literature review from secondary sources. I believe the material would be suitable for the page if and when that happens. This essentially fleshes out the first inquiry, as I see it.137.111.13.200 (talk) 23:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your understanding is correct. However, my concerns are, as you mentioned, 2 fold. If the references used to support the inclusion of new material do not meet WP standards for medical references then, few of the references used in the current article do either.Erythema (talk) 20:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I think an additional problem is that some editors are claiming that some studies or portions thereof support the "actual disease" hypothesis when they clearly do not. Where the studies have a "conclusions" section, I'd like to seek agreement that we judge the study as supporting that conclusion instead of quote mining the study. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 23:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Responses to Inquiry #2:
 * I realize the WP policy does not favor using original research, but that it does allow for the inclusion of primary studies when secondary studies are lacking. I want to be clear that I do not expect the inclusion of new material to be used in a way that is not compatible with WP policy. I honestly want the article to be a fair and unbiased representation of the medical literature available on this topic, but if primary sources are used to reference 1 POV then they should be allowed to reference the other (or any other POVs). I would like to mention there is a reliable secondary resource citing material supporting the infectious hypothesis. Other editors seem to agree that the F1000 itself is a prestigious group of scientists and doctors, although they dispute F1000 Research. The F1000 (not part of F1000 Research) have cited the paper, Morgellons Disease: A Chemical and Light Microscopic Study (2012), in F1000 Prime as a recommended article, f1000.com/prime/716597867, and as a must read or very good article. This citation is not the same as the paper itself (it was published by OMICS) and is therefore a secondary source. I would like to see this included as an additional reference.Erythema (talk) 21:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Responses to Inquiry #3:
 * I prefer Method C most, Method B next, and Method A least, but will still agree to move forward with any of them.  15:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I echo Zad68 in preferring C, B, and A last, but agreeing to abide by whichever approach will resolve the dispute. TechBear  &#124; Talk &#124; Contributions 16:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * A (based on TM's suggestion), but C and B are fine, too -- Scray (talk) 21:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * C and B, then A, in the interest of reaching consensus (and after considering why so many favor this, I agree). -- Scray (talk) 16:11, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * C is my preference, followed by A, then lastly B. Drgao (talk) 23:11, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * C is my preference, then A then B.137.111.13.200 (talk) 23:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Definitely C. A & B wouldn't be a definitive decision on the process and I'd prefer to resolve this ASAP. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 23:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Prefer C. Unsure as to preference between remaining options. Sailsbystars (talk) 04:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * C,B then A. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * C, then B then A. I'll participate whichever is ultimately chosen. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 21:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I prefer A if it is possible. But if not either B or C.Erythema (talk) 21:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Interim evaluation of the foregoing: Since option C is the first preference of most participants and at least an alternative choice of everyone else, I would use C except that two editors, Brangifer and Arthur Rubin, have not agreed to it (or any other choice) and C must be unanimous to be available. I would ordinarily just move ahead with one of the other options but when the responses already given are evaluated it's very close to a dead heat between A and B. I'm going to poke them on their talk pages and ask them to weigh in here. If they've not done so in the next 24 hours or so, then we'll move ahead. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 15:54, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I prefer C. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * My apologies for the delay. I prefer C, as well.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 21:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Moving forward with C
Though we've not heard from Arthur Rubin, I've taken a long look at his user page, user status, and history and believe that we can expect that he will respect any result we reach here even if he has not specifically agreed to option C, so that's what we are going to go with.
 * In that context, everyone needs to understand that with option C that what we have is, essentially, an agreement that you will not dispute this matter further with one another.
 * It does not mean that any third parties are bound by that agreement, so it is entirely possible for a new editor — not a sockpuppet or new account of one of you, but an entirely new participant — to come along and start advocating for one side or the other and this decision will not be binding in any way on them.
 * Because of that, your agreement to this method also implies that not only will you agree to abide by it, but that you will not solicit third parties to come along and reopen it.
 * If a third party does come along and their position is opposite to that decided here, it further means that those on the prevailing side here must be able to oppose that third party without interference or negative input from those on the other side here.


 * It also means that if new sources pro or con are developed, by which I mean that they are published for the first time after the decision here, then they can be raised and discussed by either side.
 * As part of the concept here, the idea is to end this dispute. You have my promise that I will not decide the matter frivolously, arbitrarily, or lightly or with any bias other than a bias in favor of doing what's best for the encyclopedia in keeping with its policies, guidelines, and customary practices, but what I decide will not be subject to further discussion or appeal.
 * Finally, this agreement is a handshake and obligation of honor, not an enforceable agreement. I'm not an administrator and even if I was there's no provision in policy for enforcing an agreement such as this.

So stop and engage in a bit of self-examination for a moment. Let's say I come back with a decision that is to the absolute opposite of what you think is right and with either no explanation of it (I reserve the right to just decide without explanation, though it's not likely that's what I'll do) or with an explanation that you think is dead wrong. What I'm asking of you is whether on your honor you can commit right now to gritting your teeth and living with that result without rejecting it, arguing against it, carping about it, or finagling a way around it. There's no dishonor in saying no, but only if you do it now.

Here we go: I've carefully avoided studying the issue until now, just so I could be neutral in setting all this up and in giving the question a fair reading when the time came. From now through next Monday, I'm going to start studying the issue. If anyone either wants to back out on the agreement after the introspection I've just asked for, or if anyone wants to make any comments about any of the specific sources listed above, feel free to do so below, but do it before 11:59 UTC on Monday, July 15, 2013. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 17:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Sounds great. I'm sure everyone who supported Option C was aware that this was what they were choosing, the description going into it was pretty clear.  Are you stating that you will be STARTING your review on Monday?  I just want to be sure that the three recent discussions at Talk:Morgellons entitled Talk:Morgellons, Talk:Morgellons, and Talk:Morgellons are read and considered carefully as part of the review process.  Thanks...   18:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll be sure to consider them; if anyone else has specific discussions to which they wish to point me, please feel free to do so here. I'll be doing my review starting immediately with a view towards issuing a decision on Tuesday, though if I have questions I need to pose here, or unexpected real world issues (which are always possible for me on weekends), it might be delayed. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 18:41, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@Erythema: At the article talk page you have asserted several times that, "There are provisions for relaxation of the No original research policy when secondary sources are lacking." While I don't think that assertion is going to affect the answer of what I'm considering at this point in time, I'd like to make sure. Please identify the provisions that you're talking about. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 19:26, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * (Responses copied from my user talk page. — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 13:58, 16 July 2013 (UTC))


 * Sorry to take so long to get back to your request for information on relaxing policy. I am out of town at a conference and have not had much time for wikipedia. First thanks for volunteering to mediate this heated topic. Whatever way you decide I very much appreciate the attention you are giving this and your neutrality. I honestly do not want to do anything that opposes WP policy and if the addition of new material conflicts with policy I completely understand. My concern is the bias that I feel the current article has, especially because it does involve health of people. The main article is written as though there is no other POV other than a delusional etiology and I feel the patients with this disorder and the public need to know there are other POVs. A Pub Med search on Morgellons does not provide many, if any, appropriate secondary sources. There aren't any good systematic review articles. There is quite a lot on WP:MEDRS on the use of primary sources and how to use them. This was the section where it says that policy can be relaxed when an area is undergoing active research. I believe there is another mention somewhere else and I will look more thoroughly for it. Again, thanks for volunteering.


 * WP:MEDDATE


 * Here are some rules of thumb for keeping an article up-to-date, while maintaining the more-important goal of reliability. These instructions are appropriate for actively researched areas with many primary sources and several reviews and may need to be relaxed in areas where little progress is being made or few reviews are being published. Erythema (talk) 03:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Transporterman, I cannot find anything in WP:MEDRS that indicates that primary resources should not be used when secondary sources are lacking. In the current article on Morgellons very few references are from peer-reviewed medical journals. Of those that are almost all are opinion peices, and of those that are not there are 2 original research. Here's some more on primary resources that seems to indicate that they can be used providing they are used correctly. WP:MEDRS: Reliable primary sources may occasionally be used with care as an adjunct to the secondary literature, but there remains potential for misuse. For that reason, edits that rely on primary sources should only describe the conclusions of the source, and should describe these findings clearly so the edit can be checked by editors with no specialist knowledge. In particular, this description should follow closely the interpretation of the data given by the authors, or by other reliable secondary sources. Primary sources should not be cited in support of a conclusion that is not clearly made by the authors or by reliable secondary sources. Regards Erythema (talk) 04:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Opinion and call for additional arguments
I have reviewed the sources in question, i.e. those listed above in my posting of 15:37, 8 July 2013, and those subsequently mentioned by others. WP:MEDRS says:"Wikipedia's articles, while not intended to provide medical advice, are nonetheless an important and widely used source of health information. Therefore, it is vital that the biomedical information in all types of articles be based on reliable, third-party, published sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge. Ideal sources for such content includes literature reviews or systematic reviews published in reputable medical journals, academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant field and from a respected publisher, and medical guidelines or position statements from nationally or internationally recognised expert bodies."It also says:"After enough time has passed for a review in the area to be published, the review should be cited in preference to the primary study. ... If no review on the subject is published in a reasonable amount of time, then the text associated with the primary source should be removed."And says:"Case reports, whether in the popular press or a peer reviewed medical journal, are a form of anecdote and generally fall below the minimum requirements of reliable medical sources."While other portions of MEDRS are also applicable, it is my belief that except for two or perhaps three of the sources that none of the listed sources are sufficiently reliable to be cited in the article due to substantial doubt about their publishers having the "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" required by WP:SOURCES. Note that I said WP:SOURCES, not WP:MEDRS. By that I mean to say that I do not believe that they meet even the standard needed for ordinary sources at Wikipedia. When one filters that through the higher standard required by WP:MEDRS, I believe that there is no possibility that they could serve as reliable sources for medical articles. The articles which I have reference to here are those published by F1000, Dove Press, and OMICS. That leaves the three articles published by Springer, BioMed, and British Medical Journal. The publishers of the first and third are clearly reliable and I am uncertain about BioMed. I believe the BMJ article, which is merely a 1946 letter to the journal is, however, both too old and too anecdotal to be of any use in the article except perhaps to provide some historical information if and when the disease theory can positively appear in the article in depth. That leaves the Springer ("The mystery of Morgellons disease", Savely, Leitao, and Stricker) and BioMed ("Morgellons disease, illuminating", Harvey, Bransfield, Mercer, Leitao, et al) articles. '''I would like to hear arguments about why or why not those two particular articles do or do not qualify as MEDRS-reliable sources and should or should not be used in the article. In that regard, I would also welcome comments about why the CDC study is appropriate for the article, but those two articles are or are not.''' Any participant may respond below and I'll receive arguments through 23:59 UST on Thursday, July 18. ''Please do not respond to one another's arguments, simply make your own case. This opinion is final as to the other sources, please refrain from commenting on them; any comments on the F1000, Dove Press, OMICS, and BMJ sources will be disregarded and deleted.'' Regards,  TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 21:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC) PS: If you assert that something is determined by a policy or guideline, please provide a link to the specific section of the policy or guideline you are asserting. — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 21:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC) 
 * The following discussion is closed pending the issuance of a final decision.  — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 14:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd say the CDC study is relevant simply for the history of the condition, which is how it's used in the article. The 2006 article could be included in that fashion (and already is). However, if you check the link to the full article, it simply doesn't count as a secondary study. It was published at least two years before any modern primary sources; the only "Morgellons is non-delusional" article it cites is the 1946 letter. It therefore does not make the "non-delusional" argument more than a fringe view. Stricker is also credited in the paper and has a very poor reputation from being found guilty of scientific misconduct. I can't comment on the 2009 article at the moment, other than to say that Leitao is credited in the article and is also considered an unreliable researcher by mainstream medical consensus; I'll try to look into it later. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 01:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The Savely et al (2006) paper is an opinion piece, at the top of the article it actually says 'current opinion' so really it is a long letter to the editor. Harvey et al, (2009) is a primary source with Mary Leitao as an author.  These two papers are really good refs for the WP:FRINGE view that this is a distinct disease, but nothing beyond that.  If they are to be used, they must be used with great care.  The CDC study was conducted by the CDC whose reputation is pretty decent.  Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd add that the CDC study is notable in that it's cited fairly authoritatively both in the media and in other subsequent publications in reliable sources. On the BioMed article.... I find it more than a little dubious that the lead author's contact is an aol email (click author info) and the only people not using home emails are a veterinary clinic and the MRF.  Legitimate researchers usually have emails from research institutions.  Sailsbystars (talk) 06:17, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The CDC study is relevant as the medical/governmental reaction to lobbying from people associated with the Morgellons condition, I believe the study itself was mentioned on the page long before the conclusions of the study came out. That a study was being conducted by the CDC at all was apparently important at that time. The conclusions of the study, even though they are essentially from a primary source (regardless of the profile of the CDC), are relevant purely in an historical sense, if not a medical one. However, the CDC study has been reviewed in secondary sources (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ijd.12067/full- Medline; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22583072- Medline), and the conclusions are in accord with the consensus that is somewhat apparent on the issue.
 * The Savely 2006 article is an opinion piece, which would have made sense as something to include in lieu of reliable studies about the condition, although now after numerous studies on the subject have been published, the space where that paper would go has been filled with actual information.
 * The Harvey 2009 article has two citations from reliable secondary sources (that I can see)- (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3690364/- Medline) cited it thus- "The current consensus is that this disease is a new manifestation and variant of delusional infestation with ‘infection’ by an inanimate material"
 * The only other citation in a Medline article was the CDC study, which mentioned an elevated level of cytokines as in Harvey. Not much support for the infestation suggestion.137.111.13.200 (talk) 09:43, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I should point out that the CDC study accepted the possibility that Morgellons might be a real physical disease, as the following statement from the study demonstrates: the authors of the CDC study stated that "we were not able to conclude based on this study whether this unexplained dermopathy represents a new condition, as has been proposed by those who use the term Morgellons, or [whether it represents] wider recognition of an existing condition such as delusional infestation." If the CDC study is to be included in the article, the fact that the CDC accept that Morgellons could be a real physical disease should be mentioned.


 * At present the CDC study is only used to support the delusional infestation view of Morgellons in the article. The article needs to represent the CDC study neutrally. Drgao (talk) 13:40, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please clarify, where in is there support for that "real physical disease"? All I can see is "a new condition", such as a different variation of the delusion. LeadSongDog  come howl!  17:21, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * How come you stopped reading at the comma? The CDC study says: "a new condition, as has been proposed by those who use the term Morgellons". People who use the term Morgellons say that the condition is a real physical skin disease. Drgao (talk) 17:38, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Numerous papers indeed suggest that the condition is a real physical skin disease, caused by delusional infestation. Whether or not the condition is characterised by anything that sets it apart from DI is not clear. Do you believe the abstract of their study contradicts with their conclusions? "No common underlying medical condition or infectious source was identified, similar to more commonly recognized conditions such as delusional infestation."137.111.13.200 (talk) 04:33, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Delusional infestation is not a real physical skin disease in this context, in the sense in that the researchers who propose Morgellons is a DI believe that the skin lesions are merely cause by excessive scratching of the skin (ie, the lesions are self-inflicted), rather than caused by some metabolic or physiological pathology of the skin. I think the researchers of the CDC study are playing games with words a little: by your above quote, they seem to be siding to an extent with the delusional infestation idea of Morgellons; but in the conclusion of the article, the CDC cover themselves by no matter what Morgellons turns out to be, by saying that they could not determine whether Morgellons was a real physical skin disease or a delusional infestation. Drgao (talk) 10:43, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. 

Final opinion and closing comments
Based on the opening and foregoing arguments and on my own personal investigation into the matter, I find that:
 * The Savely 2006 article is reliable as, and only as, an opinion piece, and generally only reliable as support for what statements attributed to its authors say, if — and only if — the opinions of its authors can be shown to be be both relevant to the article and needed to support, without giving undue weight to, some point which is otherwise supported by relevant sources. I further believe, without holding in a binding way, that such a use, with that limitation, is probably unneeded.
 * The Harvey 2009 article is, on its own, a reliable but very weak source under WP:MEDRS due to the nature of the study and the lack of subsequent positive citations in clearly-reliable sources. The two times it has been cited, once in the CDC study and a second one here have not been to support the theory that there is a non-psychological cause for Morgellons. Similar to the Savely 2006 article, I cannot see what it would add to the sources already present in the article (but I do not hold what I say in this sentence out to be binding). I also note that in the How do you think we can help? section, above, the listing editor says that this request is to, "Determine consensus as to whether the sources proposed are indeed authoritative WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary sources such that per WP:NPOV the mention of the parasite theory is warranted." I see no support in Harvey 2009 for the theory that Morgellons may actually be caused by parasites, and I do not believe that it is reliable to support that theory.
 * I only mentioned the CDC study above as a foil for examination of Savely 2006 and Harvey 2009, so let me note that I neither express nor imply any opinion about the reliability of that study, pro or con.

Though some participants have indicated that they would like this opinion to extend beyond the mere question of source reliability into the issue of what weight and balance to give any sources which proved to be reliable and to the question of whether the existing sources in the article are reliable to support the psychological theory. I believe that would be beyond the scope of this request and that those matters need to be more fully discussed at the article talk page in light of this opinion and so must decline that request.

Thanks to all the participants for their cooperation and patience in this matter. Best regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 20:21, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Istrian exodus


6 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Parties do not agree on how the lead section of the article "Istrian exodus" should be written, nor can they agree on appropriate sources

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

The original disputers have tried a discussion on the talkpage, followed by a 3O, which I gave. In response to that 3O, the discussion degenerated into a spat between editors that seemed to be going nowhere

How do you think we can help?

Help the original disputers reach consensus on the structure of the lead, and the appropriate sources to be used in that lead

Opening comments by DIREKTOR
I've written a rather detailed "deposition" on Talk:Istrian exodus (my last post) please refer to that. -- Director  ( talk ) 20:50, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To make my position out in brief: Silvio1973 is misquoting and misrepresenting sources. Upon investigation all his stuff is essentially from one source, whereas the others are just misquoted fluff. That would not be a problem except that the source he does follow has been misrepresented: the author (Ahonen) goes into some detail, explaining each individual area affected in the event. From this long narrative Silvio1973 cherry-picked the most negative segments of text he could find, placed them in the lede - and presented them as generally occurring. Besides undue weight and distortion of that sort, his text is biased by omission in excluding many elements of this complex event described by that source, that do not fit his POV. His edit also includes OR conclusions of his own, and just plain old misattributed fabrications.


 * The "positive 3O" he refers to was granted on the assumption any reasonable Wikipedian would make, namely that the refs he quotes do actually support that which they're quoted under - that is demonstrably not the case. And this isn't the first time Silvio1973 has been caught engaging in fraudulent referencing. Frankly, experience renders me incapable of trusting a single reference of his unless I have a reason to. For details please refer, as I said, to my last post on Talk:Istrian exodus (and indeed previous posts therein). The mess of misrepresentation needs quite a bit of unraveling and I don't want to clutter this page by copy-pasting stuff from there. -- Director  ( talk ) 19:13, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Silvio1973
It is somehow sad that we have arrived here. I genuinely believed there was enough room to reach consensus. The issue is that it's difficult to discuss when the other party does not assume good faith. Indeed, my counterparty went further than this and qualified me of lier, nationalist and extremist.

From my side I can say that I do not have any special opinion about user Direktor. He has different opinions on the Istrian exodus. He tried to push his opinions and this is normal. What is not normal (and I make abstraction of the language he used in my respect) is that despite multiple requests from me and the Mediator he did not provide any source in support of his edit. Indeed he looked more interested in demonstrating first the inexistence, then the unreliability and in the end (when all other options exhausted) the misrepresentation of the sources I would allegedly made to support used my edit. The whole discussion became even more difficult when the Mediator declared to be tempted to approve my edit.

Indeed, I do not believe my opinion is extremist at all. I have posted a well sourced edit and if necessary I can source it even more (I volunterely limited myself to the best available 4 sources). --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes Direktor, you are the one being absolutely neutral. However, instead of pretending that the others are lying propose something and try to contribute to get to common compromise and consensus. Your initial edit was not sourced at all. However, until now it is your version of facts (i.e. there are no responsabilities - direct or indirect - of the Yugoslav government in the Istrian Exodus) that has not been sourced yet. --Silvio1973 (talk) 14:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice try. #1 proving a negative is impossible ("that there is no responsibility.."), and the WP:BURDEN of evidence is on you to show the positive. #2 to quote your own source, Ahonen p106: "It does not appear that an official decision for the general expulsion of Italians from Yugoslavia was ever taken". And if I recall from previous discussions, Ballinger also supports this view.. yet you cite them both in implied support of the opposite.


 * So you see, providing brief quotations like that is really very easy. Not that the specific one above is necessary at all given that (per "#1") you have no sources for the opposing claim anyway. -- Director  ( talk ) 08:32, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Notice of formal recusal
As I have already described, I am already heavily involved in this dispute per INVOLVED, and, in a not unconnected manner, COI. Threfore, I give formal notice of my recusal from this case, save in the instance where the eventual mediator asks for details about the 3O that I gave. Notwithstanding the above, I will be watching this page since I have other business to do regarding DRN (namely, mediation of another dispute). --The Historian (talk) 17:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit proposed by Silvio1973
I propose the following version (please accept my apolologies for repeating me again) for the lede of the article. It goes by itself that in order to get to consensus I am ready to discuss about all possible compromise, but to proceed in this direction we need first to get from the counterparty a version of facts adequately sourced. However, I need to stress that the article is today inadequate (in terms of sources, balance between the sections and general completeness) and further work will be required to increase the quality to the importance of an event of such significance. In this sense it is important to get to consensus from the beginning to work with proficiency in the future.


 * The formal responsibility of the Yugoslav Regime in the exodus is still today a matter of discussion amongst historians. However, the measures implemented, some summary killings, confiscations, pressure from the governmental authorities and the press forced the ethnic Italian to leave quickly and en masse.


 * In some cases, such as in Rijeka (inhabited by an Italian majority), the arrival of the Yugoslavs was marked by a series of public murders and an intense policy of Croatization of the local population.


 * Prominent members of Tito's inner group, such as Milovan Dilas and Edward Kardelj (than Yugoslav Minister for Foreign Affairs) were sent to Istria to organise anti-Italian propaganda, as Milovan Dilas himself would declare in an interview given in 1991.


 * Sources
 * 1) People on the move: forced population movements in Europe after WWII and its aftermath - Pertti Ahonen, Berg, USA, 2008 - Page 108 lines 3-4 and 8-9-10 from the top, page 105 last two lines and page 106 last 8 lines.
 * 2) History in Exile: Memory and Identity at the Borders of the Balkans - Pamela Ballinger, Princetown University Press, UK, 2003 - Page 109 the entire last paragraph and page 103 lines 16-17-18-19 from the top.
 * 3) Refugees in the Age of Total War - Anna C. Bramwell, University of Oxford, UK, 1988 - Page 139 lines 6-5-4-3 from the bottom and page 143 lines 8-7-6-5-4-3 from the bottom.
 * 4) Literary and Social Diasporas - G. Rando and Jerry Turcotte, Belgium, 2007 - ISBN 978-90-5201-383-1 - Look at page 174 lines 14 to 21.

This edit received a positive 3O about 10 days ago. I am ready to discuss it and to find a compromise with Direktor. The issue is that Direktor spends time (that allegedly he has not) just to contest my edit but does not propose anything. --Silvio1973 (talk) 14:13, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

24-hour closing notice: Sometimes we encounter a case where no volunteer is willing or interested in taking on a case. This appears to be one of those. It will have been filed for 14 days tomorrow and it will be closed by a volunteer some time after 11:59 UTC on 20 July 2013 if no volunteer chooses to take it up. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 21:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This appears to be a slow moving edit war that began on or around 10:02, 24 June 2013‎ and has been the exclusive edits of the two editors alone. I recommend this be closed here and that it be suggested for Third opinion as one of the editors involved has recused themselves (and was not involved in the edit war). Could also be a candidate for Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring or AN/I.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no edit war; there was an extremely slow "edit war", if that's what you wan't to call it (no 3RR violations imo), that's now weeks old. -- Director  ( talk ) 12:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no interest in mediating this case. The history seems to demonstrate that the article participation of other editors has actively slowed down to just these two editors. It seems that the stale edit war mentioned above may have put some off from participating. RFC it.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:06, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

2013 in British music


12 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Deb insists that linking individual dates for the deaths of individuals and dates that occurred on a specific date is intrinsic and acceptable for an article. I maintain that they are not, citing that the links do not even mention the event let alone discuss it. Secondly, I am citing that the date of death should not be linked because it is unacceptable for the original biographical article; for the same reason as above. Using the definitions from MOS, the requirement is that such links must be intrinsic (i.e essential) per WP:YEARLINK and WP:DATELINK.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Provide clarification to resolve dispute.

Opening comments by Deb
I've been here many times before. It seems to me self-evident that Year in Topic articles are "intrinsically chronological" in nature. They are covered by WikiProject_Years, within which the use of links in sections such as "Events" and "Deaths" is well documented as the norm. Chris Gualtieri's argument for removing the date links from one such article is that he doesn't believe they are useful. I happen to disagree. Year articles are specifically excluded from the no-date-linking guideline; it was precisely through this exclusion that the "great date-linking debate" of [whatever year it was - I'm sure someone can enlighten me] was finally resolved. Please let's not have another such rift. Deb (talk) 17:23, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

2013 in British music discussion
Hi, I'm Carrie, and I'm a volunteer here at DRN. This doesn't give me any special powers or authority, but I can try and help you reach an agreement. I'm still reading up on the various discussions that have taken place about this subject, but it looks to me as though the issue is whether or not a 'Year in Topic' article is intrinsically chronological. Is that right? CarrieVS (talk) 11:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the "Year in topic" is (to itself) intrinsically chronological, meaning that preceding and successive years should be linked in some manner. So links to 2012 in British music is perfectly acceptable; as I guess 2012 would be by extension. The primary issue is the linking of every individual date for which no relevant information exists. Take this line, "9 March - George Benjamin conducts the UK première of his opera Written on Skin at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden." Does 9 March have any relevance other then the date just happened to fall on that particular day? No. Is it a key date in the history of March 9? No. Is it even mentioned on March 9? No. Even within the article's table for "Platinum records" the excessive date linking is absent, but included on every single date of death in the following section. None of these individual dates are relevant at all to the material and should be de-linked. These date links are not even allowed on the biographies themselves because consensus advances the "not germane" aspect as I am doing so here! It is a big stretch to say that these articles are "intrinsically chronological" because the definition (synonym swapped) means "essentially chronological". There is nothing "essential" or "essentially" chronological about those dates. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Is it even mentioned on March 9? No." The reason for that is pretty obvious: there is no article entitled "March 9 in music".  If there were, it would be.  It's not at all unlikely that such an article will be created at some future date. Deb (talk) 17:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I doubt a "March 9 in music" will be made because its a big stretch on the "this day in history" type. In this case, and as it stands, the de-linking is entirely appropriate. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I would be very surprised if 'month-day in topic' articles were made, since events in music on March 9 of different years are unlikely to be related to each other in the way that events in the same year are. My personal feeling is that month-day links aren't helpful unless there's some particular reason why they're relevant in an individual case. However, there has been a lot of discussion about date-linking and we should try to follow consensus.
 * The MOS guideline says that in most circumstances there should be a particular reason for linking to a date. But it provides an exception for 'intrinsically chronological' articles. So the question is, was that exception meant to include Year-in-topic articles, or not? I note that the examples of what is considered intrinsically chronological are a year, a month, and a decade: all strictly chronological, and I would consider year-in-topic to be primarily about the topic. If I had been writing that guideline and had meant it to include articles that aren't strictly chronological I would have included an example of that to make it clear. But while a year-in-topic example would be conclusive in one direction, I don't know that the lack of one is conclusive in the other direction.
 * Am I right in thinking that this is a broader dispute than simply the content of this one article? If so I think it might be best to involve Wikiproject Years and/or start a discussion on the MOS/linking talk page. There has been a lot of discussion in the past about when to link to month-day articles, but I can't find anything that comes to a conclusion about linking from year-in-topic articles or clarifies the expression 'intrinsically chronological'. CarrieVS (talk) 09:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I've asked YEARS and they have remained all but silent on the issue. The definition of "intrinsic" is "essential" - by mere definition of the word the links have to be relevant and appropriate given a "chronological" progression. This idea is already used in navigation templates, meaning relationship and other "Year in XXXX" is chronologically related, but individual dates themselves just coincidentally fell on that date. The burden falls to existing consensus on biography articles. If you don't link birth date and death date to the individual articles on "March 7" and "1980" you should not do so in an unrelated "Year in XXXX" topic. The question of germane or not germane, for relevancy and usage to the reader, is a simple one. To say it is "chronological", thus allowed, is to be deceiving of the preceding "intrinsic" requirement. So we arrive at the definition which exists in the templates, what is assumed to be allowed is: Other chronologically linked "Year in XXXX", the source "Year", other useful navigation links to "XXXX in music" or other related field. Leaving links like March 7, which does not have relevant information related to the topic, as best suited for de-linking. Chronological terms are not to be linked in general, they have to present an essential or relevant material for readers to understand context better. And last I checked, no one needs to be directed to March 7 to find out about "March 7" - it is just being used as a list of other (not related to the topic) events that occurred on that day. Most of which (if not all) are not even to be found on that page - if they are it is no different then the original article. As a result, it certainly does not meet either criteria required for linking. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Chris, I honestly feel that you are misunderstanding the word "intrinsic". It is only the same as "essential" in one sense - ie. the sense of "constituting or being part of the essence of", NOT the sense of being "basic or indispensable".  There are a number of users who agree with you that these dates shouldn't be linked; unfortunately none of them are regular contributors to year articles.  It seems to me that this is an exercise in trying to enforce what are, after all, only guidelines, just for the sake of it, when you have no real interest in the quality of these articles. To me, following the same convention in the "year in topic" articles as in the basic year articles makes perfect sense.
 * I also want to point out that the article March 7 is not actually about March 7. It does have a short introductory section, just in case there is anyone reading it who doesn't know the literal meaning of the words "March 7", but it is in fact a list of things that happened on March 7, all of them in different years.  Thus linking to it has the same effect as linking to any other list, and it is hard to understand why you have such a strong objection to it.  Deb (talk) 14:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What about the specific use of "germane" then? It seems the definition is obvious and has voiced his opinion on the matter before. I am active in Years topics; but that is an ad hom attack and misdirection. I have every right to work in any area I choose to. The link has to be relevant or essential for the context of the readers, if linking the dates doesn't work for biographies or other lists why should "YYYY in X" be any different? The only "relevancy" is that the event occurred on that day, most of the time the event in question doesn't even merit inclusion on said list. Why is it important to list to another set of unrelated events in seemingly apparent defiance of WP:LINK? Given the examples of WP:UNDERLINK and WP:OVERLINK both aspects provide a rationale for when it is acceptable and when it is not. You cannot give me a reason why it should be linked when I can give you many reasons it should not, using existing policy. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:09, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I completely disagree with your analysis of this argument. Citing the opinions of a user who has been blocked no less than eight times in the past five years is hardly likely to change my mind. Deb (talk) 20:48, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe there is a difference between most lists and month-day articles. Most lists are of related things so that the other list items would be relevant. With some exceptions, events occurring on the same day in different years are not related. In most cases of an event on that date, other events that occurred on the same day in different years are coincidental and so are mere trivia.
 * However, the question we need to answer right now isn't how relevant the date articles are for these events. It's whether the month-day articles need to be "relevant and appropriate to the subject" for specific events in year-in-topic articles. Stay on track please. Please also comment on content, not contributors; what matters is the strength of the arguments, not how often the person making them has edited year articles or whether they've been blocked in the past.
 * It seems that you disagree very strongly on the interpretation of the "inrinsically chronological" part of the MOS guideline, and I personally think it is unclear. So why don't we try a different tack? Let's use common sense and the general principle of when to link: that it should help the reader's understanding of the article. Deb, I'll ask you to go first. Can you explain why it's helpful to the reader, in understanding the year-in-topic article, to link to month-day articles? CarrieVS (talk) 01:25, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a lot of subjectivity in your analysis. Whether they "need" to be linked or are "relevant" is always going to be a matter of opinion.  "Common sense" doesn't exist, as far as I'm concerned, because everyone I know has a different idea of what constitutes common sense.  Once you ask "why it's helpful to the reader", you have already strayed from your first question of whether the links need to be relevant.  Why not ask the same question about the date links in year articles?  Why is it only relevant to the year-in-topic articles?  Are the date articles lists in some sense that the year articles are not?
 * To answer your question, I personally (as a contributor) use the date links for navigation - which is what links are for - so that I can check, for example, whether an entry is being consistently used, eg. if it has been included in a date article when the person listed was not considered notable enough to be listed in the Year in topic article. (I see this as part of the ongoing issue of US and UK bias in these articles.)  I do not think it is at all unlikely that, as wikipedia expands, there will one day be an article entitled "March 9 in music" - when I first began contributing, in 2002, we could not envisage this encyclopedia with the entries we have today.  As a reader, I also use the date links for navigation, but in this case to see what other things happened on the same date, which is after all what the date articles are there for.  For example, when I am compiling a quiz, I can make use of the year in topic articles, the year articles, the date articles, and the month articles (eg. January 1974) we are currently building up.  You can call this trivia if you like, but there is no rule against including trivia in wikipedia as long as it is in the appropriate place.  I've explained all this before, but all I get in response is "well, I don't find them useful", or "well, most people don't find them useful".  This will never be resolved by a vote or "consensus" discussion between contributors because the readers whom we are trying to help and who make use of these links are very likely not to be contributors and not to be consulted.  However, it seems obvious to me that, since other wikipedias, including the French and German ones, still include date-linking in biographical articles, someone must be finding them useful.
 * I agree that the views of other contributors should not quoted here to support the argument one way or the other, regardless of how "strong" their arguments are, which once again is going to be purely subjective. It should be enough to note that the guidelines specifically excluded Year in topic articles from the general de-linking.  Deb (talk) 11:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Actions should be made on the strength of the arguments, and you dismiss that rationale. It is a misdirection to use other language Wikipedias as reason for inclusion, because their policies are very different than our own. What rational you provide is "compiling a quiz" suggests a personal need that goes against the rational put forth by WP:LINK. The only reason you provide for these links is that it helps you find "other events which occurred on this date/year in history"? Is that not what List of historical anniversaries does? I do not see how this extremely niche usage, which is filled by other pages, is suitable explanation for linking every date and year to find other unrelated events which just happened to occur on that date. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello. I am Amadscientist. I am a regular volunteer here at DR/N. I don't understand why this case was opened as it appears there is very little discussion. I recommend that the case be kicked back to the article talk page and ask editors to continue to find common ground based on the guidelines and policies. Since it is open and there is a volunteer handling the case I will not object if left open and continued and will attempt to assist where I can. If this case is to be left open I do need clarification on the original use of the specific wording of "they are not intrinsic to the article ", "They are not intrinsic and should be removed" and "Because it is not relevant - specifically intrinsic - it should not be included". You see, it is not a matter of intrinsic value, but encyclopedic contextual significance. Intrinsic value is "belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing ". I think this argument may be overstating our guidelines and policies. I have not reviewed the entire discussion at length but I do think we have to ask ourselves what the specific reason for exclusion is from a policy standpoint. Anything less simply arguing opinion and we don't edit in or out content based on what we like or dislike.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not want it back at the talk page because Deb does not want to compromise and asserts something not backed by WP:LINK. No offense, but the definition of "intrinsic" and "germane" is the root of the problem. For dates to be linked the MOS states that it should be relevant (germane) to the topic or essential for the chronology (intrinsic). I see no reason that Deb's desire to interlink "British music" for trivia or quiz-making purposes is justifiable for linking every date on the article. The content is not expanded or even included on the links. I want DRN to help resolve this issue because Deb seems to have had problems in the past in this area and will not engage in consensus building. So I brought it here. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Endorse Chris. It's been going on for a long time, and it's not just 2013 in British music. I detect ownership of this walled garden. Any link removal is usually reverted with minimal or no discussion123456. Please also refer to these actions. I'll try and dig up more stuff if I have time. --  Ohc  ¡digame!¿que pasa? 04:09, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Deb has summarily undone edits by, , , ,  – simply do a browser search for "undid" or "revert" on her contributions. --  Ohc  ¡digame!¿que pasa? 04:35, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The decision to kick this back to the talk page rests with CarrieVS as they are the volunteer that opened the case however, I should mention that your reasoning for it not going back is simply not a good argument. If you do not even want to try to handle thison the talk page and wish to rely on others to decide for you, you may not be happy with the outcome. If you both attempt to work together towards common ground and demonstrate a willingness to try, there should be no reason the case cannot return to DR/N when extensive discussion has taken place. I will look further at the MOS, however please be aware that as I see it so far, theuse of specific wording seems overly strong. Remember that MOS is only a guideline and content still requires a consensus. If two editors cannot come to a consensus, an informal RFC can be created to attract larger community input. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:18, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * IF the issue, as you say, is: [T]he definition of "intrinsic" and "germane" is the root of the problem." then it should be easy enough to understand that the two words do not mean the same thing. Intrinsic is not used in the MOS but "relevant" is. Germane:


 * 1. obsolete : closely akin


 * 2. : being at once relevant and appropriate"


 * The MOS does not state that the use of year date links must be essential to the nature of the article. It need only be relevant and appropriate.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You might want to re-read WP:DATELINK and WP:YEARLINK:
 * "Intrinsically chronological articles (1789, January, and 1940s) may themselves contain linked chronological items." Both opening pieces for the two sections are:
 * "Month-and-day articles (e.g. February 24 and 10 July) should not be linked unless their content is relevant and appropriate to the subject."
 * "Year articles (e.g. 1795, 1955, 2007) should not be linked unless they contain information that is germane and topical to the subject matter—that is, the events in the year article should share an important connection other than merely that they occurred in the same year."
 * I am using these statements as the basis for my argument. Both are expansions of WP:OVERLINK and WP:UNDERLINK. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:47, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * My take is this: only articles about dates are and can be considered "intrinsically chronological". '2013 in British music' is a subset of 2013 and British music. That intersection virtually strips it of its intrinsicness [sic] to chronology. Linking dates in these is as nonsensical as linking all elements of a timeline, where at least some common thread usually exists. In terms of "navigation", the flow of clicks is illogical. People will visit '2013 in British music' only if they want to, duh, know what happened in British music in year 2013. They wouldn't go there to find out what happened on a given date; if they already knew the specific date of a certain event, they would go to the relevant event or date article instead. OTOH, it's quite logical for the reader, looking through '1980 in British music', to click over to the John Lennon or Death of John Lennon articles. Having a sea of blue dates in this case distracts the reader from such important information. Assuming the coverage is exhaustive (ie all dates in a year have entries and links), navigation is utterly destroyed just like the haystack obscures the proverbial needle. Without even dwelling on the rather inconsistent linking of dates therein, the linking of death dates in the article is rather quixotic and is purely a result of relics of history and the deliberate continual actions of one or two editors and maybe the unwitting actions of a few more. Dates are not linked in any biography per overwhelming consensus. In fact death dates are generally regarded as incidental or coincidental because people generally don't choose auspicious dates to die on. If they did, there wouldn't be any modern birth or death entries on April 20 or April 30 (hint:birth and death date of a certain mass murderer). The date itself has no relevance beyond this. Forget germane. The fact that other language Wikipedias indiscriminately link their dates isn't a valid concern. What happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas, as the saying goes. I like to see it as "enlightenment" on our part. Now looking at some events in the article: "9 March - George Benjamin conducts the UK première of his opera Written on Skin at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden; 18 May - Bonnie Tyler represents the United Kingdom in the 2013 Eurovision Song Contest, singing 'Believe in Me', amassing a total of 28 points to finish in 19th place; 16-23 June - BBC Cardiff Singer of the World 30th anniversary competition takes place in St David's Hall, Cardiff."In the articles linked to, I'd say the dates are rather pedestrian and their notability is low and not exactly key dates for the topic at hand (ie British music) – truly pivotal dates are few and far between, and these are all dates (eg. 8 December 1980, 24 November 1991), not days. I quite understand the statement " " although I believe it's a trashy concept that could potentially fill the 'pedia with increasing volumes of mindless trivia as the drill down gets more specific. It seems that Deb is the author of many such articles, and almost all are linked as defined in WP:WALL. That way, the reader can happily go around like a butterfly, floating from one random sweet-smelling flower to another without having to go elsewhere to find non-coincidental or non-random nectar. I'm just hoping that Deb doesn't go extending the bankrupt practice of is more transparent in her edit summaries when expanding any more of these articles – Of course, there's usually some expansion to these articles. I find misleading edit summaries labelling simply "expand" when the primary change seems to be inserting links for all day-month month-day dates. --  Ohc  ¡digame!¿que pasa? 03:44, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding input, however if this is little more than a criticism of Deb, I will be shutting this down and moving back to the talk page as no longer a content dispute but a behavioral conflict. I feel much of the above should be collapsed as personal attacks and will be doing so after I notify the editor and give them the chance to respond.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Madscientist, this forum is to politely find solutions to content–behavioural disputes; it's not possible to draw a line between them, and that is why we're here. There was an edit-conflict, so here is what I was trying to post:
 * Tony, this noticeboard is to resolve disputes and find compromise and common ground. It is not for finding solutions to every issue or problem and I remind editors once again that dipute resolution is not for discussing editors. It seems this was a premature opening and this case should never have been brought here. This is likely to be better for a formal RFC and continued discussion on the talk page.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:35, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What a weird definition of dispute resolution. You wonder how it could ever do anything useful. "to politely find solutions to content–behavioural disputes" ≠ "to resolve disputes and find compromise and common ground". OK, I'll remember that. Tony   (talk)  04:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That wasn't a definition of dispute resolution, it is simply what the goals of this noticeboard are. We have consensus for such if you wish to review them.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:50, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A few remarks:


 * Deb performs a lot of valuable gnoming work. In addition, she is a devotee of chronological articles and the so-called intersecting year in X articles, almost all of which have had their month–day and their year links removed, except in cases of special significance. But she is determined to put a military moat around certain sets of year in X articles she has selected. Maybe there's a bit of ownership going on here, probably arising from her (laudable) editing investments in past years. While this might be in good faith as self-defined, the resistance to seeing the bigger picture—in particular the community's overwhelming endorsement in 2009 not to blanket-link chronological fragments—is stretching the definition of collegiality. There are block reversions of entire edits that include the unlinking of these fragments in the selected categories, and an unwillingness to go along with the community's decision; when discourse is entered into, it is framed by an argument that year in X hybrids are defined as "intrinsically" chronological. Ohconfucius has presented a compelling argument against this, above, and other editors have done so on talk pages over the past few years. The walled castle includes year in anglophone country, year in literature, year in music, and year in art. Everyone has learned that if you want to avoid a fight, you have to stay away from them; the more accepted/normalised the consensus has become over the past four years, the more frustrating the resistance has appeared to numerous editors. Paradoxically, and regrettably, the acceptance seems to underpin Deb's feeling that there's a moral imperative to "holding out". Yet it's obvious from the examples cited above—the carefully worded and agreed text on which the consensus decision was based—that year in X articles were not intended for exception. To top it off, there are nav-boxes displayed prominently at the top of these articles; they present clear, convenient, systematic links to both related articles on the same theme, and related themes (year in art from year in music). IMO, it's time to harmonise practice in these remaining citadels. I'll conclude by saying that Deb's ultimate plan to fractionate the empire of year in X into twelfths brings into question yet more sharply the matter of thematic utility—call it the opposite side of the triviality coin: why do we care what happened in music in March 1956? Because it was my birth-month? Minimising triviality does matter on the English WP—not nearly as much as the German WP, but all the same trivia sections have been removed from articles, and wikilinking is now done more selectively to maximise thematic utility for readers. The fact that no other WP has raised the skill with which wikilinks are applied is neither here nor there. They're generally a mish-mash of scattergun linking, without much guidance for editors. Take a look at other WPs to see the result. We live in hope. Tony   (talk)  04:26, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I did not want to bring behavior into this, because it is purely article content. We disagree, but there is nothing wrong with that. The date linking is not used on a majority of articles, including 2012 in Japan. I think it is weird that 2012 in Britain does not exist, but 2012 in British music, 2012 in British radio, 2012 in British television and 2012 in British music charts do exist. Strangely enough, all except Deb's "in British music" type adhere to the MOS as expected. And that includes the seemingly related "British music charts" pages. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:46, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Chris. I believe you have the best intentions. What I think all editors are failing to see here is that the MOS is not an absolute and is simply not appropriate to argue such. What I see missing is your reasoning why this must be excluded and an argument why it should. I am sorry to tell editors, but this is not cut and dry, but I do appreciate the good faith post to clarify.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In all fairness, MOS compliance is not the be-all end-all of Wikipedia, but some of the WP:LAMEest edit wars have been over less. If anything certain standards exist because the community has spent its time and effort to resolve the problems in the past; if any consensus can be rejected by saying "I disagree" than it makes such discussions worthless and done in vain. I like consistency, and many fixes are fine. Things like punctuation before ref, bulleting external lists, bolding the first instance of the article title in the lede; they are all minor but bigger battles have been fought over a endash or a hyphen. The point of this was to try an build consensus with some third parties. And I do not think Tony or OC are "third parties" in this case; while their input is enlightening, I see that at least OC has had issues with Deb in the past. With that being said, if Deb does not want to engage in the consensus building matter this DRN has no obligation to do so. I won't be filing a RFC or anything because this is not a huge deal to me. I wanted clarification and perhaps some uniformity on the related articles; walled garden or not, I'm not out to make war over someone else's pages. - I've already got my own problems with an editor out to delete my pages enmasse so I know that this is not a pleasant situation for Deb. I think the option to continue rests with Deb, and at this point, I'm leaning towards closing this myself. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you may have hit a few nails on the head there. Just remember (it is not always something we keep in the forefront of our minds as editors) that each article has a local consensus that determines how to handle a situation. Where our guidelines give us wiggle room is where most disputes seem to occur. Dispute resolution gives us many options yet still allows DR/N as a first step. This is not always the right venue, but we will always suggest how best to proceed. In this case I feel that further discussion is important, but that this venue is certainly not the best route at the moment. I suggest Third opinion as the dispute is between only two editors.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * These clauses were added to MOSNUM by a supervising ArbCom clerk after a massive RFC in 2009. They are not normal MOS guidance; they arise from fully tested overwhelming community consensus. One of MOS(NUM)'s key functions is to forestall talk-page arguments and edit-wars over style and formatting. Even if this notion were tenable that it's up to local editors whether to say "stuff you" to such resounding community consensus, it seems that it's Deb and her instant block reverts, against everyone else. Is that local consensus? Tony   (talk)  07:35, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The strength of the consensus doesn't have any relevance. One would assume any community decision that is appropriate has strength in having been decided by the community and having ArbCom add it doesn't seem to clarify how that is a stronger consensus nor how that makes this a "special MOS guideline". What such a consensus does protect, is anyone coming along and simply trying to make a bold edit to change it. A simple local consensus would also not be able to override it. But it doesn't mean it is special in any other manner. The very wording is clear. There is not requirement to subject editors to. This is the Manual of Style not a policy or brightline rule.
 * No consensus has been formed from this discussion. It is the opinion of this volunteer that the dispute may have come here prematurely and that the best option still remains a calm and concise discussion on the article talk page. There, editors may begin an informal RFC or a formal RFC. Third opinion is available for disputes between only two editors and we also have the noticeboards and projects. If an extensive discussion still produces no consensus, editors are able to re-file here at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi all. I've read over this thread as it popped up on my list. I disagree that this is a dispute that should have gone back to the talk page - as a dispute with a sole dissenter to the local consensus, further discussion on a talk page is unlikely to bear fruit. Policies and guidelines are important, and in this case, there are two things I see here. One, a consensus at the talk page seems to exist opting for the dates to not be linked. Two, this passage of text, key parts bolded: "Month-and-day articles (e.g. February 24 and 10 July) should not be linked unless their content is relevant and appropriate to the subject. Such links should share an important connection with that subject other than that the events occurred on the same date." When I look at the article, I do not see how, for example, 7 March is relevant to the death of Kenny Ball, apart from the fact this was the day he died. It seems others see this too, and this is the reason this dispute has started. My recommendation here would be for an RFC to be started, to get wider input on the matter. I can give some guidance on setting this up to ensure it is framed correctly. For now, I will close this DRN thread. Please feel free to approach me directly on my talk page. Regards, Steven Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 12:59, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Luigi di Bella


14 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The issue is if for the article a list of publications is appropriate. And it grounds on the question if following assumed rule is in the spirit of Wikipedia: "for persons which are not authors, musicians, & artists, only notable works that are heavily referenced by peers should be listed". Note: last year there was a dispute about some links added that I understand failed under the "original research" criteria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_44#Luigi_di_Bella There was only a mention about "references" deletion, which I did not pursue for lack of time, having been given too much pages to read at that time.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Only the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

In case the rule: "for persons which are not authors, musicians, & artists, only notable works that are heavily referenced by peers should be listed" is the Wikipedia spirit, how do we find if a work is "heavily referenced by peers" and which criteria should be used (minimum number of references, reputability of the peers, and what else is needed).

Opening comments by Yobol
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Luigi di Bella discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

2012 Delhi gang rape case


16 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The issue is about whether the name of the gang rape victim should be included in the article or not. While the name has been verified and victim's father had granted permission to reveal her name, the name is not being allowed to included by The Banner and User:Lukeno94. They say that since the consensus is against it's inclusion it cannot be included in the article. However since the information about the name is verifiable and significant it's inclusion is not subject to a consensus. Also The Banner and Lukeno94 are the only ones in favor of not including it. I and Gandydancer are in favor of including it while Khazar2 is undecided which can be seen here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Rape_victim_identification_at_2012_Delhi_gang_rape_case ). Also The Banner has started harassing me in order to scare me away. Lukeno94 displayed the same behavior earlier. It seems that these users are refusing to let the victim's name be included in the article because they think that it will be a disrespect to her. In that case they are promoting their own personal interests. This cannot be allowed. I request assistance in resolving this dispute.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have proved to them that the name of the victim is verifiable and her family had granted media outlets the permission to reveal her name. I've also tried explaining to them that including her name in the article is not an insult to her but it will increase her respect.

How do you think we can help?

Please make sure that no one can impose their own views and advise about what decision should be taken about the inclusion of the name of the victim in the article.

Opening comments by The Banner
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. The filer has done nothing to reach a compromise. He just get hammering that we did not understand the policies. Now it is clear that the discussion is not going his way, he turns to DR. The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 19:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

With the user taking user warnings as threats and removing them, I have no hope filer will be willing to compromise or negotiate. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 20:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Gandydancer
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

This editor is not correct when s/he states that I want to put the name of the dead woman into the article and that should be clear since I was the first one to remove her name when he used it on the talk page. I thought that I could help him/her by explaining that in a previous discussion I brought up the possibility but through group discussion I agreed that we should not use her name. That turned out to be a mistake because now s/he continues to repeat that I want her name in the article. Gandydancer (talk) 21:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Lukeno94
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I don't think I've got much more to say than what Soni said - their viewpoint is pretty much mine. What I will say is that TransVannian has used both edit summaries and the talkpage as a soapbox for their views, and any time they are informed of this policy, they either ignore it, or claim "harassment" - as they've done here. No one has claimed that adding the victim's name is an "insult" - we're following BLP and keeping it out of the article, as per the family's wishes. Frankly, this DRN shows yet more WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour by TransVannian, and should be closed. Luke no 94 (tell Luke off here) 19:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Given that the user has taken to attempting to troll my talk page, it's clear they're not here to be constructive at all. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 07:49, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Khazar2
Sorry to be late to the party; as noted below, I'm on a bit of Wikibreak. I actually don't have strong feelings here, since a reasonable case can be made for both sides. So far as I can see, most news stories are declining to use her name, while a few are. The name actually appears in the article's references twice just in headlines, as in this Australian article:. TransVannian got off on the wrong foot with their approach here, but the idea of including the name isn't wholly unreasonable. My personal take is that there's little harm in revealing a name already so widely available and little encyclopedic good in including a name most sources still aren't using. So I think the stakes are low here, and I probably won't be participating much beyond this initial statement. Thanks, though, to everyone working on this, and thanks to Scott for mediating. -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by TheOriginalSoni
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. This is a relatively simple case. The editor in question, TransVannian, started by making a change to the article with an Edit Sumary which was considered bad enough by several editors that I had to contact an admin who revdelled it. After which, they have been posting long tirades on the talk page accusing everyone of POV pushing and not knowing Wikipedia guidelines and related matters.

The primary issue being contended is whether or not a rape victim's name be published in the article. Long standing consensus, based on discussion, previous examples of similar cases and policies as well as the national and most of international media judged against having the name on the article. The editor here failed to note that consensus in this case was more important than verifiablity.

In light of the long and pointless discussion, I had closed the discussion on the Talk page, after which the discussion and accusations shifted to User talk:The Banner, before being closed again and brought to DRN. The case seems pretty straightforward to me.

TheOriginalSoni (talk) 19:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

2012 Delhi gang rape case discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Discussion should be there but what if the the whole consensus has been motivated by a user thinking that including victim's name is a insult. It a promotion of their own views. Also how are you saying that consensus is more important than verification. Is this statement even mentioned anywhere? No it isn't. Without a proof why should your statement be regarded true User:TheOriginalSoni? In actual it is the opossite. Correct information that is significant is not subject to a consensus no.matter how controversial the info might be. TransVannian (talk) 19:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Not only that you've also failed that only 2 users are in favor of not including the name in the article while 2 are in favor of including it and 1 is undecided. How are you saying that consensus favors not including the name? TransVannian (talk) 19:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Lukeno94 you can't say that this post should be closed. It will be closed when the dispute is resolved. Do you expect me to just blindly believe that consensus is more important than verifiability? These bullying tactis won't work on.me. TransVannian (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Would you stop with the utter bullshit that your claims of "bullying" are? Your "verifiability" comment makes no sense either - just because something is verifiable doesn't mean it should be included; thus, yes, consensus is more important than verifiability. Again, more battleground behaviour from you. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 20:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi there everyone. I volunteer here at DRN and am willing to take on this request. Once Khazar2 has made a statement we can begin. I am aware that Khazar2 has stated he is on a wikibreak and can't really be involved so if we haven't heard from him in 24 hours we will proceed without his statement. Cabe 6403  (Talk•Sign) 08:19, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Cabe,
 * I dont think a full DRN will be required because the editor in question is very unclear on policies and refuses to listen to us when we try to explain them. If possible and appropriate, I request you to look through the matter and explain the issues to him so we all can go forward with what we were doing. In case you find that not the best thing to do, I'll be willing to co-operate with whatever steps you deem appropriate to deal with it. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 09:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. The editor has now tried to take the discussion to Luke's and my talk pages. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 09:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I have read over most of the interactions between the editors regarding this subject however DRN is not for discussing user conduct, rather, we should focus on the content. I left this case open because it's an interesting one. To play devils advocate here: can someone explain why not including the victims name is not brushing up against WP:NOTCENSORED? Cabe  6403  (Talk•Sign) 09:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC
 * Standard procedure is to leave the victim's names of these cases out, especially when the family express that wish, as I believe is the case here. Whilst NOTCENSORED may be a valid argument, local consensus always takes heed over such things; and the consensus, which TransVannian has ignored/refuses to accept, is to leave the name out. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 09:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you show me where the policy says that's standard procedure? Or is this a case of 'it's always been that way'. Also, local consensus "cannot override community consensus on a wider scale". To be clear here, I'm not taking sides, TransVannian reasonably valid point although he hasn't delivered it very well hence my current 'devils advocate' style comments. Additionally, I don't have access to the sources right now but I've been lead to believe that the father publised the name of the victim himself, is this correct? Cabe  6403  (Talk•Sign) 10:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello thereUser:Cabe6403. First of all I'll like to point out that the victim's family has actually granted permission to reveal her name. User:Lukeno94's statement is incorrect. The victim's father himself directly requested media outlets to reveal her name. It can be easily be seen the requirement of permission has already been met. TransVannian (talk) 10:09, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi TransVannian, I'm another DRN editor here, if you want to make the claim that permission has been given, its much easier to give your claim more weight if you link it to proof. -- Nbound (talk) 10:15, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello there Nbound. Here's the proof which states that the victim's father not only granted permission but himself revealed her identity. This is the proof ( http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/india-gang-rape-victims-father-1521289 ). Her name is given there. Users can check it. TransVannian (talk) 10:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not even close to a WP:Reliable source... Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 10:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh so you're calling a reputed media outlet as unreliable. The source is perfectly reliable and besides you'll find multiple reliable sources on Google that will state the same thing. The website Mirror is a perfectly reliable source. You do not even know what a reliable source is. TransVannian (talk) 10:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The Daily Mirror a reliable source? Excuse me whilst I burst into hysterical laughter... Did you seriously just make that statement? Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 10:46, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Regardless of the obvious unreliable nature of a TABLOID newspaper, the actual discussion about the inclusion of the name was here. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 10:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright laugh after you read this. The Daily Mirror has said that they have received permission from her father to reveal her name. Also all news websites are regarded as reliable on Wikipedia if you did not know. Stop spreading lies and misinformation Lukeno94. You're making an embarrassment out of yourself. Last of all Wikipedia is not a place to laugh at others. TransVannian (talk) 11:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In fact the father denied he had requested the victim to be named. Surely, the BBC is a reliable source for that denial. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 11:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you now going to claim that the Daily Mail and The Sun are reliable sources as well? The Mirror is about the same level as they are... NOT all news websites are regarded as reliable on Wikipedia; that's a ludicrous statement. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 11:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * According to the policy which you yourself mentioned  "News reporting" from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors). The Mirror or The Daily Mirror is a globally reputed news outlet. And as such it can be regarded as a reliable source. Also since the father has directly revealed her name to them there is no chance there might be a factual error. I leave it to the volunteers to judge the comments forwarded by me. TransVannian (talk) 11:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I should mention this. All the Wikipedia articles about currently happening events or events that happened some time ago always contain mostly news websites as sources. Even the article we are discussing about uses news websites as sources. TransVannian (talk) 11:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm jumping in here as someone entirely uninvolved, and I do not know DRN protocol, so if my comments here are inappropriate, I have no problem whatsoever with a DRN volunteer either hatting them or removing them. However, TransVannian needs to be reminded that our policy against personal attacks applies everywhere on Wikipedia, and that insults like the one lobbed at Lukeno94 above (which echo some on left on Lukeno94's talk page) need to stop or there will be no alternative but to block your (TransVannian's) account. Please keep this discussion WP:CIVIL; disagreement is fine (to a point), but attacks, insults, and other acts of incivility are not. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * First of all I should say this is not the place to talk about someone's behavior. Additionaly, why are you ignoring User:Lukeno94's aggressive and insultive behaviour. Please tell me what type of editor call so other comments as bullshit and says wait before I laugh hysterically to them ? That's why said Laugh after you read this. It was a passive remark yes but is due to Lukeno94's insulting behavior. But just a passive remark doesn't mean I can be blocked. I will not repeat this mistake again and will now completely focus on the discussion rather than remarks of other users. But please I request you to do something about Lukeno94's behavior and tell him to stay civil. Thank you. TransVannian (talk) 12:26, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Qwryxian's comment has little to do with "laugh after you read this", and is more to do with your downright false accusations of "bullying" and stating that I am "spreading lies and misinformation" - both are bullshit (and that's not incivil or a personal attack; that's a statement of fact.) The Daily Mirror is a tabloid newspaper, as you yourself have remarked upon previously. Tabloid newspapers are not, never have been, and never will be reliable sources, period. If you can't understand why that is, well... I'm concerned for you. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 12:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Gentlemen, lets drop all 'he said, she said' fingerpointing and focus on the content. As an aside, tabloid simply refers to the size of the paper the media is published on although, these days, it can be informally used to label things like the mirror and the sun due to their more sensationalist and gossipy reporting styles. Regardless, the BBC is much more of a reliable source than either and that source states, quite clearly, that the father did not wish the name published.
 * Regarding the inclusion of the name, the name of the victim is sourced, in multiple places. I see people referring to the law in India but Wikipedia is not affected by these laws. This is also the English Wikipedia not one of the Indian ones. Cabe  6403  (Talk•Sign) 12:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not really sure why this is being continued, to be honest. It's not just local consensus, but quite a general one that rape victims' names are left out, particularly when the family wish it to be private; there's a highly reliable source stating that the family wish it to be private, so the name should be left out, law or no law. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 13:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I had earlier mentioned that even highly reputable sources can be incorrect. Not only that there's only one source even.though highly reputable claiming he did not grant permission. Also see this news source which states ( http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=161252 ) that Lalu Prasad Yadav, a high class politician revealed her name and that too on January 18 while the BBC article's date is January 7 although the source hasn't revealed what her name is. Now both sources cannot be correct. Multiple sources say that the father granted permission and only BBC is saying he did not. The case that his father did not give permission very weak. If you can bring more reliable sources which state the sane as BBC perhaps you can make it stronger. But still it has to be determined which source is correct. Reliability cannot be determined on the basis of reputation alone. Also in January I read the same thing thing in an English newspaper The Tribune that her father had asked media outlets to name the victim. Perhaps BBC or The Mirror might have committed  factual errors although it's difficult to tell. TransVannian (talk) 18:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Too much has happened in the hours while I was away, but I'll just jump in to say Lalu Prasad Yadav is not a high class politician. There are plenty of politicians who would resort to such gimmicks and he is one of them. He will be a very BAD reason for any sort of inclusion on here. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 06:41, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

If you look closely in this article ( http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20925164 ) BBC itself states that it was the Indian media saying that he had not granted permission. While The Sunday People newspaper says that he has granted permission and even carries his picture, The Hindustan Times on the other hand says he had not. It seems that BBC did not conduct any original research into the matter that whether the father granted permission or not. I request the volunteers to help and advise what to do since the matter has become very confusing. As I've earlier said even reputed news websites can commit mistakes. TransVannian (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that the inconsistency in the sourcing is why we are erring on the side of caution and leaving out the information. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 20:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Am I correct in saying there is no inconsistency in the victims name but only in whether her father stated he wished it to be known? This is a complex issue in which there is no 'right' way of doing it. As such, we must defer to consensus. I would suggest to the original filer that he raises an RfC on the issue to gain wider community consensus on the matter. For now, I would leave the name off and use the suggested RfC to establish a consensus to include it. For what it's worth I'd be in favour of including the name as I believe it's encyclopeadic and suitably sourced as the correct name. I'll leave this open for another day or so before closing it in case there's any further comments. Cabe  6403  (Talk•Sign) 09:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * According to Wikipedia Rape shield law: As a matter of courtesy, most newspapers and broadcast media in the United States do not disclose the name of an alleged rape victim during the trial, and if the alleged rapist is convicted, most will continue to not identify the victim. Gandydancer (talk) 13:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes such a law also exists inside the US and even UK and even Australia and even the Arab countries. However this law does not prohipit the name of victim. I'll give you a very famous example of why Wikipedia's editing is not under any nation's laws. You might know about Scorpions album Virgin Killer. The album art of that album supposedly showing a nude minor girl and also a crack at the place where the private parts are supposedly implying about taking her virginity or raping her. That Wikipedia article was blocked by UK. However Wikipedia did not remove the album art simply because Wikipedia is not responsible for it and it supports uncensored information nor does it support child pornography at all. So your saying that just because there is no permissions from family the name cannot be included is completely incorrect. Laws of any government of any country do not apply here. And yes that means even murdrers, thiefs, rapists (I'm not insulting anyone but just trying to prove a point) and terrorists can edit Wikipedia as long their edits are constructive. Also I've already said there is no complete proof and by thus including the name which some sources say is JS (you know the name) it can't mean we are including her real name. My edit is not going to be that her name is JS. It is instead going to be while some sources say that the father of victim revealed her name as JS, it was later reported by many media outlets that father did what not grant permission to reveal her name putting the reliability of the name reported earlier under serious question mark. It is still not clear what is the victim's actual name. This still protects her identity and I see no problem with this. However I would like the volunteers to advise. TransVannian (talk) 17:41, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Which is completely unnecessary. And is STILL against a general consensus. Dude, I haven't yet seen anyone who actually agrees with you, so just drop it and move on. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 18:50, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually you need to stop your pathetic lies. The volunteer is actually with me. You of course do not kniw how Wikipedia works. So I ask you to learn that first. Volunteers might not have more power than you and I but admins do. And I'm willing to take this matter to them that is after volunteers say there is no problem with my edit but you stop from making that edit in the article by undoing my edits or deleting it. No matter how much lies you can craft they won't work in front of them. TransVannian (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Cabe clearly stated this: "For now, I would leave the name off and use the suggested RfC" - cut the bullshit. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 19:06, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Cable only stated about not including it as her name. Also one more thing all edits do not require consensus. This comment was made before I asked if it is OK to make this edit. While some media outlets stated her name as JSP, it was later reported by some outlets that he had denied giving any permission putting the credibility of that name into question. I ask Cabe6403 if it is OK to make this edit without consensus? TransVannian (talk) 19:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I think Cabe's solution--holding an RfC on the name issue, and leaving the name out in the meantime--is a sensible one. I'd very much oppose introducing the name in the meantime until that consensus is clear. -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:54, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

TransVannian, when I said I'd leave the name off, I was referring to all instances of including the victims name within the article. Would you be willing to take it to an RfC? Cabe 6403  (Talk•Sign) 07:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It really saddens me that this seems headed for an RfC. Really? Is this really necessary? We should not be printing the name of a rape victim. Full stop. I know we're NOTCENSORED and printing the name in this case may well be BLP-compliant. So the fuck what? It's basic human decency. Joefromrandb (talk) 08:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. I stated that ages ago, and I still don't think TransVannian knows how Wikipedia operates, given that the majority of their comments don't fit up with Wikipedia policies. They're even flat-out misrepresenting what people say, and then having the gall to tell others they're being "disruptive" and "lying" - ironic. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 08:33, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) An RfC will get the opinion of the community at large, of which you are a part of. At the moment its fairly limited to a small number of editors. I suggest those with strong feelings take a read over WP:TIGER, its an interesting read. I believe that, as an encyclopedia, we should strive to have all encyclopedic information included and not be swayed by emotions. We also shouldn't decide for our readers what information they should have access to, we should provide them will all the reliable, verifiable and sourced information we have access to written in a neutral tone without giving undue weight to any one aspect. I'm aware that not all editors will feel this way, I respect this, which is why I have suggested an RfC.
 * If this discussion continues to not focus on content then I will assume that aspect has finished and close this DRN. Cabe  6403  (Talk•Sign) 08:40, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I am saddened by the ongoing disrespect that TransVannian shows for the existing community consensus and for the disrespect he shows for the victim and her family. Although behaviour should not play a role in this mediation request, I think it is necessary to look at his trolling, PAs and POV-pushing. He wants the name in it and he does everything to reach that goal. The whole time he claims that WP:V is enough to mention her name. Every other policies and consensus that backs up the claim not to do it is bluntly ignored and every Wikipedian coming up with them does not understand the policy. I see no willingness from his side to compromise, just a troll eating up time and resources. The outcome of an RFC is quite predictable and will only confirm the present consensus not to name a victim. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 08:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I ask TransVannian: If an RfC is undertaken, would you be willing to respect the outcome regardless of which way it goes? Cabe  6403  (Talk•Sign) 08:51, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

First of all I'll request Cabe6403 to explain what is an Rfc since I'm still somewhat new and can't understamd some Wiki terms. Second of all, if thr volunteers think it will be better to have a consensus in all instances then alright it's no probkem.eith me since you have a better judgment thsn me. Even the discussion didn't go in my favor it's good to see that it was because there were real proofs against me and not because some disruptive editors were trying to strong arm me but still I forgive them. The volunteers can close the discussion anytime they want but before that I request them to please explain what an Rfc is. Thank you. TransVannian (talk) 15:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:RFC should answer your question. Joefromrandb (talk) 16:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Also I'll like to say to The Banner that I don't need anyone to tell me whether I respect her or not. I myself have an elder sister and somewhat understand the problems women go through everyday. You might think that revealing her name is a disrespect but I on the other hand hiding her name is actually disrespect to her and revealing her name is a respect to her. There are millions who might think the same as me but then again there are also millions who think naming the victim is a disrespect. That's because everyone's opinion is different. We live I in a world with large number of people with different personalities. So not everyone has the same thinking as you. I respect your views but you should respect mine too. TransVannian (talk) 15:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes I'm willing to take a wider community consensus or RFC regardless of the outcome. I don't care that much about the outcome as much I care about having a fair discussion. Wikipedia advises avoiding victimization of victims which might include not revealing the name if there is no permission. However it only refers to those victims only who are alive not those who are dead. Also it's just an advise and not a policy since it itself says it is advised. However only for victims who are alive. I ask the volunteers whether I should file an RfC right here or someplace else? TransVannian (talk) 17:56, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You care about a fair discussion????? <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 19:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Conversion of non-Muslim places of worship into mosques


17 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I have found about 6 reliable sources regarding the information that "Kaaba" was the hindu temple before, and a ruler had made mosque in front of a temple that is from varanasi. Thus i added on the page "According to some sources, Ka'aba used to be a hindu temple." By adding the 3 references, and reverted the lost data of the page back, which was regarding varanasi, as it was removed by some random.

Now i see a editor who would first claim that "i don't think so about varanasi temple", and also refuting the information about Kabaa as well. I presented about 3 more sources, one of them highly recognized, still the editor doesn't seems to be agreeing. 6 sources:- (Regarding varanasi temple),. ,, , , (about Kaaba).
 * None of the books/sources comes from " iUniverse", and 6 of the sources, regarding kabaa can't be "self-published book from iUniverse" or WP:FRINGE, "(possibly his own?)" seems immature because i can't have multiple original identities either. Capitals00 (talk) 16:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Didn't even needed to look, since i haven't took them from Trafford or "iUniverse", but i just checked, Zero of my sources share any connection with Trafford either. Capitals00 (talk) 16:19, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussed in both talk pages, for about 4 hours.

How do you think we can help?

Let me know, how such sourced information can be added, or not. Considering rest of the information in the whole article have share similar type of sources.

Opening comments by Roscelese
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I've already explained this to the user, but there's obviously a language barrier and I'm not sure a) what he's trying to say or b) if what I'm saying is getting across. For the Varanasi thing, the issue is a disagreement over what the article's scope should be (does "conversion of non-Muslim places of worship into mosques" mean "former temples and churches that became mosques," or also "mosques built on the same ground where other things used to be") - I have one position and I would be delighted if he would articulate another. The Kaaba issue is separate; it's a wildly WP:FRINGE claim and the sources he's adding for it are self-published books from iUniverse and Trafford (one possibly his own?) and an op-ed from noted pseudohistorian P.N. Oak. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Conversion of non-Muslim places of worship into mosques discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Though I am a regular volunteer here, I am neither "taking" this case or opening it for discussion at this time, but merely offering this recommendation:  It would very much encourage a volunteer to open and take this case if you were to list in your opening statement the 6 sources to which you refer, preferably in the form of inline references so that a volunteer doesn't have to go searching for them in the articles. If you use inline references, then put on a line by itself at the bottom of your opening comments so they'll show up. Regards, TransporterMan  (<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK ) 17:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm still not opening this for general discussion, but I do want to comment and ask a couple of questions about the sources Capitals00 has listed. The numbers, below, correspond to his listing, above.
 * 1. Is clearly not a reliable source and cannot be used in Wikipedia. It's a website without an established "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" as required by the verifiability policy. Since this is not a reliable source the Varanasi issue is moot until a reliable source as defined by Wikipedia can be produced and discussed on the talk page. That issue is closed for purposes of this discussion.
 * 2&3. Are also not reliable for the same underlying reason, but specifically because they are self-published works from vanity publishers. They cannot be used to support information in the article.
 * 5. Due to its age, I have grave suspicions about the reliability of this work. It cannot be regarded as reliable unless it can be shown to have been cited in a positive manner multiple times in modern works which are themselves clearly reliable. In any event, the page number given does not correspond to the open source editions of that work that I've been able to find.  Could you perhaps find the same passage in this Google Books edition of that work and provide the page number? Can you provide evidence, of the nature I just mentioned, that this work is reliable?
 * 4&6. These appear to be reputable publishers and though the Google Books links to these works do not provide full page views of the passages in question, searching on "Kaaba" or "Mecca" bring up snippits which suggest that they might support the assertion that there is at least a Hindu tradition that the black stone in the Kaaba is a Hindu lingam.  Do you have access to those two works so you can see the references in context? Why do you not believe that they are not reliable?
 * Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 15:28, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 and 6 are ones that Capitals00 never attempted to cite in the article, so all this discussion seems very hypothetical to me. Now that I look at them for the first time, they support the idea that a belief exists that the Kaaba is a Hindu lingam, but Capitals00's "according to numerous sources, the Kaaba used to be a Hindu temple" is obviously inappropriate. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 16:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Burzynski Clinic


18 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I was trying to change the Lead paragraph of the Burzynski Clinic article to a more neutral stance by adding sources to back up the facts. The current lead paragraph has no sourcing and is not written in a neutral point of view. I was given various reasons for why my edits were changed back, so I tried to write it more like the other editors preferred,even omitting one of my sources, but it was still changed back. I also added a couple of facts that were sourced in other areas, but those were removed as well. Everything I added was sourced and everything I added was removed. I also believe that I used reliable sources.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have posted on the Burzynski Clinic "talk" with multiple entries.

How do you think we can help?

I think by being a third party, you can help find some solution.

Comment by Noformation
I think this DRN request is premature. A talk page discussion was opened just yesterday and many editors haven't had a chance to respond. This is a dispute between a new editor (not that there's anything wrong with that) and multiple experienced editors and can probably be handled on talk given a day or two. If that doesn't work out then DRN would be appropriate. N <sup style="color:red;">o f o rmation <sup style="color:black;">Talk  08:09, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by kashmiri
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Alexbrn
This request is premature. At the very least allow 24 hours to elapse so that editors from all different time zones get a chance to comment on the Talk page. Also, from comments on the Talk page I am not sure the new editor appreciates the basics of Wikipedia's NPOV policy, in which case DR might not be that useful. Alexbrn talk 10:10, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Arthur Rubin
Most of the new editor's changes reflect the sources, which, however, are not reliable, or, in the case of the ACS source, was previously determined by consensus to be misleading. As there are 4 archives here to search, and also archives of the related merged articles, it would be unfair to expect a new editor to be familiar with the consensus. I think it's premature, but that, if a DRN volunteer accepts the case, he/she would find that the proposed edits have already been considered and rejected by consensus. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Jehovah's Witnesses


18 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The dispute is "They consider the Bible to be the final authority for all their beliefs, although sociologist Andrew Holden's ethnographic study of the religion concluded that pronouncements of the Governing Body, through Watch Tower Society publications, carry almost as much weight as the Bible" Corjay believes that Holden should not be included in this article but rather in the Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses, and that it is not accurate.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talkpage and ANI discussion. Corjay has refused to discuss with user's who are former witnesses on grounds it's against his beliefs.

How do you think we can help?

Review for Neutrality, verify that the sourcing is correct and not inflammatory.

Opening comments by BlackCab
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Holden's comment is presented as the observation of an unbiased academic who is widely cited in academic literature for his work on the religion. It is clearly labelled as his viewpoint, and is not presented as a "fact". It is not presented under the "Sources of Doctrine" section as criticism per se, but as part of an editorially-neutral presentation of exactly what JW beliefs are based on. JWs in their literature state that the Bible is the final authority for their beliefs, but Holden, like other academics, has noted that where the Bible may provide a shade of grey, the Watch Tower Society provides a black and white. In cases where the Bible provides no absolute directive, individual JWs are generally not permitted to arrive at their own interpretation: for the sake of "unity", a definitive answer is provided in church literature, which would most certainly "carry almost as much weight as the Bible", as Holden concluded. It is therefore appropriately presented and appropriately positioned. BlackCab (talk) 13:34, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: User:Corjay, who continues to rant at the Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses page, has indicated he is not interested in contributing to this discussion. Since it was opened on his behalf, to discuss the objection he raised, there seems little point in furthering it. BlackCab (talk) 07:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Jeffro77
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Holden's statement is accurate. Watch Tower Society literature frequently provides interpretations about matters not directly stated in the Bible, which must be accepted by JW members. When new doctrinal 'understandings' are published in Watch Tower Society publications, the new views must be accepted as 'Bible truth'. Dissenting members may be subject to shunning. See my other comments at the article's Talk page.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 14:10, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Corjay
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Ulster Defence Regiment


18 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I have come across another editor as a result of his work on copyright enforcement. I believe he has become hostile to me as a result of my efforts to make my work comply with copyright and he sees me not as a hard working Wikipedian but as someone who is out to thwart his best efforts. I believe he is now being deliberately disruptive to the wiki by stalking me, making spurious objections regarding an image I have uploaded and threatening to block me. Noting Werieth's opening statement I should add that he was advised of Arbcom sanctions on articles relating to The Troubles by me and a sysop when he engaged in editwarring by breaching the WP:1RR ruling at Ulster Defence Regiment on several occasions.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have discussed the matter at some length with him on several talk and discussion pages. I requested the assistance of sysop User:Cailil.

How do you think we can help?

Impress upon the other editor that everyone's work on Wikipedia is important and that he should be helpful rather than obstructive. Also that he shouldn't allow discussions to become personal or engage in work which is deliberately intended to inconvenience another editor. Above all he should be collegiate in his activities and always discuss actions before taking them.

Opening comments by Werieth
This is just yet another attempt at intimidation in order for SoS to continue to ignore Non-free content policy. They have threatened to take me to Arbcom Enforcement multiple times. Every issue that I have raised is completely valid and is in order to bring articles into compliance with NFC. A lot of editors do not like NFC and try to ignore it, or attack the person enforcing NFC. This is just yet another example of that. Werieth (talk) 13:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. I do not see any discussion between these two editors on Talk:Ulster Defence Regiment. I also only see 2 edits in the article history by editor Werieth since the first of the month. If these discussions have happened elsewhere, please provide the information. —    Bill W.     (Talk)  (Contrib)  — 13:59, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

OoVoo


19 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I've updated the wikipedia page with facts/links and all were deleted and marked as spam by a user called 'DragonflySixtyseven'. All of the copy that I've updated was real and I would like to know what this users thoughts on it were. I'd like to put the copy back onto the ooVoo wiki page. Thanks! Giacostone

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I've tried contacting the user who deleted contact and there was no response.

How do you think we can help?

You can try to get into contact with this user and help me try and figure out what was spam about my copy and help me update the ooVoo wiki page correctly.

Opening comments by DragonflySixtyseven
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Discussion
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Aam Aadmi Party


19 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

There is bitter conflict going on between my edits and his reverts. the user:Sitush seems to be aganst all my edits and does not ever seems to be supportive. many of my hard worked contributions are being deleted and I am being declared as biased Aam Aadmi Party supporter who is using wikipedia as a political broadcast base, which I am not. Even worthy incidents are being deleted. Instead of helping to improve articles, the user seems to misuse his powers and dispite repeated persuation, seems to aganst the very Article's right to be complete and worthy of being feature. Please Intervene into situation or else Wikipedia might loose many enthusiastic contributors.

I can only contribute to topics which I know and if i know about Aam Aadmi Party, then I would only contribute there. Please look at my contributions and the other user's contributions in this regard and resolve the dispute.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Extensively Used Talk pages. Haven't reverted his reverts. Have tried my best to follow all the WPs which have been brought to my notice And completely tried to understan the other user's point of view.

How do you think we can help?

Review both our edits and the manner in which we used our language in talk pages and edit comments. Then resolve the matter so that I can positively contribute the wikipedia and topics of my interest from completely neutral point of view.

Opening comments by Sitush
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. has reverted edits by the complainant,so too has here. is among those who have expressed opinions contrary to the complainant on the article talk page. Tall.kanna has spread discussion far and wide - article talk, my talk, Binksternet's, Qwyrxian's etc - and more often than not they've come to realise the correctness of what they are being told, an example of which is this thread. They're getting frustrated, I understand that, but they've become virtually a single-purpose account after a lengthy absence from Wikipedia and the best thing they could do here is spread out a bit and/or take up genuine offers of explanation rather than going around like a bull in a china shop. I've said that they seem to have a large investment in AAP-related articles: the presumption would be that they are one of the many supporters of this almost-messianic movement but I don't think I've ever said that they are biassed, merely that not putting all their on-wiki efforts into one thing might be more rewarding in the long run. I am not the only one who has tried to explain how things are done but there is a limit of tolerance and the problems that have occurred have been both numerous and wide-ranging. - Sitush (talk) 21:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Though I am a regular volunteer here, I am neither "taking" nor opening this case for discussion at this time. I would like to comment, however:  It is a bit unfair to say "Just take a look at all my and another editor's edits, figure out which ones are in dispute, and help me with them." Because of that, you may find that no volunteer — and we're all volunteers here — is going to be willing to go to the effort to take this case. Let me suggest that you supplement your "Dispute overview" overview with a specific list of edits which have been thoroughly discussed between you and the other editor and which have stalled out. If possible, provide diffs as well. Regards, TransporterMan  (<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK ) 21:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I have been cooperating with the other user in many instances such as santosh koli section in [] and [talk:Sitush] but without understanding my point or explaining properly, the other user takes everything personal.
 * Take for example Delhi state assembly elections, 2013 page, its history and talks regarding it above in form of Delhi/need clarification subheading. I worked hard creating a table, which with one click our friend reverted. Then also removed "AAP as main contender" from it suspecting it to be biased. I never reverted them, as I too agreed to his/her objections. then I added AAP as a Spoiler effect party, which again he removed. But this time It was well sourced and Valid Edit. And failed to give sufficient explaination above on [talk:Sitush] page. - Tall.kanna (talk) 21:48, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Conflict 1-Delhi state assembly elections, 2013 Page. It is a very new and simple example to understand the conflict. Its history clearly show how brutally he attacks others. And without discussing anything on its talk page he/she reverts every edit showing prjudice towards AAP. -Tall.kanna (talk) 21:54, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll Stop this Dispute for Once and leave the Page for some time. But next time I shall come with full preparation with Wikipedia Policies as a support. This is my last closing dispute dialog.(no more comments please)-Tall.kanna (talk) 22:24, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Brett Kimberlin
20 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The Brett Kimberlin page currently has no mention of the fact that he is married and has two children. This is a normal, biographic detail that is getting surprising pushback from two editors, goethean and Bbb23. I do not care what the sourcing is for this, the format of the mention (lead paragraph or in a personal life section), but came to this page looking to debunk the theory that it's impossible to modify the Brett Kimberlin page in a civilized manner without Team K coming down with ridiculous objections to and resulting in threats if you persist, an idea that I started off thinking was absurd and foolish and could be easily knocked out by a simple addition of basic, biographical information which should not be controversial in the least. It's not like the page couldn't stand any improvement. There's no mention of a number of notable facts in Kimberlin's life on the page currently.

Kimberlin and Mrs. Kimberlin are currently in court in Maryland so filings are available, there is a news article with a family picture from 2007, and there's a blog storm going on (as usual) surrounding the guy. Surely something will pass muster. Well, not so far, as all evidence has been rejected and edits have been squashed via reversion instead of looking to improve the material to the point of acceptability all around.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried to revert, to alter sourcing, to alter text, to place text in alternate locations.

How do you think we can help?

I have no idea as I've never done one of these before. I would like us all to play nice and work together to find out how the blazingly obvious fact that this guy is married and has kids can be properly included in the article, failing that, sanctions on those who won't play nice would seem to be in order to allow the material to go in without further harrassment.

Opening comments by goethean
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Bbb23
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. The filer couldn't come up with reliable sources to support the assertions.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:24, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
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Kaaba
22 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Well, after i had put the request for the resolution here -Dispute_resolution_noticeboard with the name "Conversion of non-Muslim places of worship into mosques". Out of 2/6 of the sources that i had given in the reference were told to be correct, now when i applied them on the article, as per the user's discussion, but then a new user interrupted, he said that i should not be Cherrypicking, i agreed about it, and as per his will, i edited the same, now he says that i am vandalizing and using "disputed resolution" as credit to edit, but well, he's actually denying the reliable sources without any making any possible discussion and valuable edit, and so far he seems to be the only one who's disagreeing.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Yes, i talked about it.

How do you think we can help?

Letting us know, that what we should do next.

Opening comments by
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Discussion
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Lyoness
25 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

I've been asked, by one of the editors involved in a dispute regarding Lyoness, to intervene in same. However, beyond issuing a single issue warning for 3RR to both parties, I don't consider myself able to participate in this matter, first of all because I know nothing about the issues, but also because there seem to be possible libel issues involved, etc.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Single issue 3RR warnings to the parties involved. "Disputed" tag on article.

How do you think we can help?

Possibly while some sort of arbitration is under way, reverting to NPOV version plus semi-protection for the article. Thanks.

Opening comments by Lyoness expert
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Dear volunteer,

Thank you for spending your valuable time on this matter. For a while now, I have been involved in the construction of an article on Lyoness, the world's largest shopping community. As persisting companies are a sensitive topic, most of my contributions to the article have revolved around keeping a balance between various opinions, while clearly stating (through references) where these opinions can be found. As you can see in the article, 99% of those opinions come from reputable, independent third party sources such as newspapers, government entities and television shows. However, with the development of the internet, blogs are getting more influential in these matters too. Therefore, in the 'Internet' section of the article, I have incorporated a reference to Mr David Brear and his blog (a widely accepted influential source in this field). The reference was simply built up as Mr Brear's opinion of Lyoness (clearly stated as a personal opinion) and a reference to his blog. Hence, the reference to Mr Brear was in no way used to purvey authority, but rather to provide the Wikipedia audience with yet another influential opinion on the company Lyoness, which is an essential part of the 'controversy' section of the article (the company has been under quite some scrutiny around the internet).

For a while now, LyoNewMedia has been making small edits to the article, usually with a somewhat misleading qualification provided in the edit summary (e.g. 'updated figures', while actually removing a few paragraphs). This, combined with the insistence to remove essential parts of the controversy section, make me doubt whether LyoNewMedia is an independent editor, rather than someone tied to Lyoness - which would be a violation of the Wikipedia guidelines. Consistently removing these important parts, without convincing argumentation or evidence that Mr Brear is indeed 'defaming living people' (quite a harsh statement, in my humble opinion), is in my humble opinion an act of vandalism which clashes with everything Wikipedia stands for.

I thank you sincerely for your time and effort,

Lyoness expert (talk) 13:31, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by LyoNewMedia
Regarding an edit on the Lyoness article which deleted a short passage, Lyoness expert asked LyoNewMedia to provide evidence for the claim that the linked blog that was used as the source is attacking and possibly defaming people. Therefore passages of the blog were posted on talk to prove the argument that attacking and possibly defamatory things are posted on the blog (for instance calling someone "self-appointed führer"). Lyoness expert replied that posting random sentences of the blog does not prove anything. From then it went back and forth. Another problem with the source is the fact that it is a personal blog and therefore not a reliable source according to Wikipedia guidelines. Therefore it would be appropriate to delete the passage referencing the blog.

Thank you for your time

Discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Due to the urgency of dealing with a BLP issue and preventing its reoccurance, I partially responded to this at the article talk page and Lyoness expert then responded at my talk page:

(Copied from those locations.)


 * The blog mentioned in the removed discussion cannot be used as a source in Wikipedia, not because it may be defamatory, but rather because blogs of that nature simply cannot be used in Wikipedia as reliable sources as defined by Wikipedia, see WP:SPS, and that is particularly true about controversial information such as this. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 13:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear TransporterMan, I sincerely apologise for the trouble we made you go through and I respect your decision to deem the referenced blog as an 'unreliable source' according to the Wikipedia guidelines. However, I can somehow not wrap my head around the fact that you consider the usage of this blog, in the way it was done in my edit, as a 'reference'. Rather, it was clearly stated that Mr Brear is of this opinion - and this is the blog where he expresses this opinion (to prove that it is in fact his opinion). So, the blog was not used to prove a fact about Lyoness, but rather that a certain opinion exists. I think that simple, but essential distinction should cause it to be exempted from the guidelines you reference. Thanks again and have a nice day, Lyoness expert (talk) 14:09, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 14:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * To respond to the question posed by Lyoness expert, above, everything in Wikipedia must, if challenged or likely to be challenged, must be supported by a reliable source as defined by Wikipedia. Inclusion in a reliable source is the test that Wikipedia uses, rather than a board of professional editors such as a paper encyclopedia will have, to determine if information is both important and reliable enough to be considered for inclusion here. (Why "considered for inclusion"? Because being present in a reliable source is the threshold for inclusion, not a guarantee of inclusion.) Wikipedia has decided via policy that personal blogs, along with other self published sources, are simply neither important nor reliable enough to be a reliable source, with a few exceptions which do not apply in this particular case. Because of the reliable source standard, there is information in the world which is Absolutely True and Urgently Important which cannot be included in Wikipedia because it is not reflected in a reliable source. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 14:33, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012
19 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The dispute started anew when I made various attempts to get the article listed as a featured article. In the process, editors begin to renew some content disputes. In general, the language of the whole article is in dispute as violating WP:NPOV. Since it deals with living people, WP:BLP is also in dispute. Also, WP:OR is in dispute regarding the background section. The talk page has become dysfunctional and there is no agreed upon consensus.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Multiple RFCs, requests on notice board, and very extensive conversations on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

I think you could review the talk page, frame the discussion, and aid the parties to find compromise language.

Opening comments by arzel
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Anonymous209.6
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Roscelese
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. My work in the article has been sporadic - I'd be happy to comment on individual issues, but am not sure I have much to say about the dispute as a whole. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Thargor Orlando
I do not have a ton to say, either. The article is unlikely to be improved as it's more a coatrack than anything else, but it can't get deleted. The only issue I feel strongly about at this point is the polling information, where some editors would prefer not to use information from 2008 and 2012 to contrast a certain vote total even though we have reliable sourcing to do so. I don't have a big dog in this hunt, so my concerns mostly end there.

Opening comments by A Quest For Knowledge
I'm not aware of being a part of any dispute over this article. To the best of my knowledge, I have never edited this article beyond minor edits and WikiGnoming. I do offer my uninvolved advice and comments on discussion boards and talk pages (as I do for lots of articles). A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 08:23, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Goethean
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Milesmoney
I guess I'm here because I edited the rape article to put back the Steve King quote. The edit comment from Anonymous209.6 said that he or she (they?) removed the quote because "BLP again - King responded to a very specific question - never said he never heard of rape or incest - no WP:RS say he did". Thing is, that's just not true. There were *four* refs for that quote, and they confirmed that he spoke exactly those words. Gotta say I don't really understand what the objection is or why they keep removing it. There's just no question that it's a legit quote. MilesMoney (talk) 03:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. 24-hour closing notice: In light of the fact that this has been listed for five days without some participants choosing to join in (no criticism implied, participation in dispute resolution is always voluntary), this request will be closed as futile by a volunteer after 16:00 hours UTC on 25 July 2013 unless the remaining participants join in, or indicate their intention of doing so, prior to that time. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 16:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Third Perso-Turkic War
26 July 2013

Note to volunteers: This listing may be reopened by any volunteer if both parties expressly agree to the conditions for reopening set out here. — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 19:47, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

A person suddenly removes information that have been listed for a long time and added it to Turkic victory, i have showed him sources that they withdrew and did not conquer anything, but he keeps removing my sources. He also accuses me of nationalism.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have, but it is impossible to resolve anything with this guy.

How do you think we can help?

We could use some opinions.

Opening comments by BöriShad
He using iranian sources for perso-turkic war. his sources totally nationalists. for example numbers of armies shows as 300.000 Turks vs 12.000 persians. 280.000 Turks killed in battle. and I said you must add impartial sources. also, I added 2 non-Turkish and non-iranian sources but he keep removing my sources. so, what can I do?

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have. also, told him on discassion page. "lets leave this page to other wikipedia users" but he didn't say ok, and kept remove my sources.

How do you think we can help?

I've already shared my sources and he shared his sources. my suggestion is; block both of us to access that page and leave that page to other users. I believe other users will be more objective than him.

Discussion
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I don't know what he is talking about, i never added those sources where it said 300,000 Turks, and the source that says that is not even Iranian, and it don't matter what nationality it is, it matters if it is reliable or not, something this guy has not learned about, he haven't even read the Wikipedia rules and accuses me of many things i don't have done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:42, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * see first and second perso-Turkic wars. you added them, didn't you? also, in russian page they show Turkic army number 40.000 in third perso-Turkic war. but your source says 120.000. why? because your kinsmen love to exaggerate enemies' numbers.BöriShad (talk) 17:22, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "accuses me of many things i don't have done." if this is true, name it.

Stop changing the subject to third Turko-persian war, and there is actually nothing wrong with that, sources are sources, it don't matter what nationality, and don't try to create a ethnic fighting by insulting my ethnicity, stop acting like a kid. And i only reverted the edits in the other Turko-Persian wars because some Pan-Turk had removed it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:49, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pan-Turk? lol I'm not even nationalist. I support freedom for all people. but this isn't our subject. you run out of your lies and come to defamation? BöriShad (talk) 18:27, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine
19 July 2013

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

The user Pluto2012 deleted my contribution which is important,objective (in my opinion),well supported and concise (19 inline words only+ long quotes). His reasons are vague:Npov,due weight, syntax, which is not true. Since he consistently deletes a lot of my contributions, it seems that he has other reasons. The Diff file is: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1947%E2%80%9348_Civil_War_in_Mandatory_Palestine&diff=563494340&oldid=563404000

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I discussed the matter with him, in the article talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1947%E2%80%9348_Civil_War_in_Mandatory_Palestine#Under_continuous_Arab_provocation_and_attack.2C_the_Yishuv_was_usually_on_the_defensive

How do you think we can help?

to convince either of us, that the other side is right.

Opening comments by Pluto2012
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Discussion
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Christian Council of Britain
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Firstly my interest is as a wp:npov editor of political organisations and I only got involved due to an article merger. I'm an atheist. The dispute has been conducted de facto via wp:bold and now consists of a single point. RevRMBWest, the other user is a wp:spa and may lack the experience of talk pages and I want to be fair. The title Rev appears to me to be misleading to UK readers -the primary audience. We can't agree.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I requested admin help on my talk page in an effort to get a response from West and Ron Jones suggested I contact you.

How do you think we can help?

This is not my favourite article. Could someone please advise of whether his religious title is misleading. I'm more concerned about getting it right than WP:COI Advice on the talk page I hope will suffice. Thanks in advance JRPG (talk) 11:18, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Christian Council of Britain discussion
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