Wikipedia:Drawing board/Archives/2008/July

Music Composer David Horne
Hi there, I've written an article on the music composer David Horne. It is located here. The reason I'm writing here is because I had previously written about the same person, but the article was judged not to meet notability guidelines. So, I'm looking for people who would provide input on this subject. My arguments are that: Well, that's all. I'm awaiting feedback on whether the article is in fact ready to go back to the article namespace without being deleted. --Atavi (talk) 19:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * he is notable as a composer, having been resident composer for an orchestra and awarded several commissions, including one from the Koussevitzky Foundation. His works have been performed by artists of international standing and have been recorded
 * he is notable as a teacher, having taught at two established European music schools, and also an American
 * he is notable as pianist, having performed at the Proms and performed as a soloist with leading British orchestras
 * Hi. :) One thing that could help your article significantly is to bring the WP:LEAD into compliance with guidelines, to use it as an overview of the article. That would be the place to include the points you've made above--specifically why he is notable. Make those points, and the article is immediately ineligible for WP:CSD, which is specifically for articles that don't indicate the importance of their subject. (I'm inclined to think the article would survive anyway, given the body, but I always think it's better to be sure. Frankly, I'm not sure everybody who tags articles bothers to read beyond the opening.)


 * In terms of larger questions of notability, this individual would be governed by WP:MUSIC, which lists specific criteria for musicians and composers. (His notability as a teacher is probably not sufficient in itself by the "professor test", based on what you say here; I think that music must be his yardstick.) I'm not familiar enough with modern composers to confidently assert from the above that he meets those criteria, but I trust if you're interested enough in him to write the bio that you are. (I don't know how significant an honor it is, for instance, to be awarded a commission from the Koussevitzky Foundation. If this would qualify for point 9, "major competition", I'd just flat out say so, and source that.)


 * To survive the ultimate challenge, deletion debate, an article must not only indicate how the individual meets these criteria, but verify that he does with reliable, independent sources. I'm getting an error at JSTOR, which says, "We're Sorry. JSTOR could not retrieve the requested article because the link contains an error. If you need assistance with locating the correct article, please contact JSTOR Support. Please include the error message below in your message. Error message for technical support: SICI matched no articles The SICI was 0040-2982(199403)2:188<21:IODH>2.0.CO;2-G" The problem with that particular source may be fixable. Boosey & Hawkes, being a commercial site, is not quite as strong as source as you might find. Likewise, the Royal Northern College of Music is not independent, as he is a staff member and they might presumed to be interested in promoting him accordingly. This is not necessarily fatal to your article, but it would certainly be positioned much better if you could add more independent sourcing. The overall test of notability is substantial coverage in independent sources, and the ability to demonstrate that he meets that one is almost certain to secure the article. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Moonriddengirl,
 * Thanks for all of your suggestions. They are quite useful.
 * Yes, I've tried the JSTOR link myself recently and it doesn't work. But, the journal article is available in print (I know that's not easily accessible, but it exists: Tempo, etc). And it is probably the most independent source (although there's also a short bio at the Koussevitzky page
 * I will work to improve the article, based on your suggestions and also take a look at WP:MUSIC.
 * Cheers,--Atavi (talk) 20:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * PS:I'm not even sure how I came into David Horne. It has been quite a while and I usually discover things by looking around...--Atavi (talk) 20:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * My connection is touch-and-go at the moment, so I'm hurrying to say (while I can!) that the source needn't necessarily be online. There are plenty of citation templates for "print only" sources right here. It would be better to give the full print information than to retain the broken link. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks again.
 * Well not quite what I expected, but he seems to meet the notability guideline "Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast across a national radio or TV network." An hour and a half Hear and Now programme] by the BBC was included an interview with him and broadcast of his works.
 * It is debatable whether he meets some other criteria as well (he's won prizes, there's a single journal article about him, and others)--Atavi (talk) 20:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If he meets one, he should be okay. :) Music says, "any one of the following criteria." I wish I could tell you definitively, but the fact is that Wikipedia's inclusion guidelines are based on consensus, and if an article does go to AfD, the outcome on less clear cases can be surprising. Personally, I'm always happiest when writing about heads of state. They're usually a safe bet. :D --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, he also meets the criterion "Has written musical theatre of some sort (includes musicals, operas, etc) that was performed in a notable theatre that had a reasonable run as such things are judged in their particular situation and time." with Friend of the People at the Scottish Opera
 * He has also several articles written about him in British newspapers, such as the Times and the Guardian, but I'm afraid none of those are available online from the source.
 * Thanks for bearing with me. I'm inclined to create the article again and see what happens.--Atavi (talk) 22:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

←Looks good to me. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Artistic Culture
Artistic Culture is a small jewelry and tee shirt company located in Florida.

Sarah, a self-taught artist and young entrepreneur, is the owner of the one woman operation.

Artistic Culture offers quality items and cares highly for its customers.

Great service and customer satisfaction are the highest priorities.

Artistic Culture has now gone global, with sales reaching out to places such as Canada, Mexico, Sweden, Venezuela, Hungary, and the United Kingdom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArtisticCulture (talk • contribs) 02:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello, and Welcome to Wikipedia! This particular article would be governed by the notability guidelines on companies. The rule of thumb here is noting whether the company has received significant or widespread coverage in secondary sources that are reliable and independent of the company (excluding company PR releases and information solely available on the company website&mdash;these sources may be used for additional information after notability has been established by secondary sources). All material must be attributable.


 * If you are able to assemble necessary sources to assert notability, you may certainly create such an article, although if you are closely associated with the subject, as your username suggests, our conflict of interest guideline strongly recommends that you do not create or edit the article yourself, but instead consider proposing its creation at requested articles or at a related article or relevant WikiProject. If you do choose to write the article in such a case, you'll want to be particularly careful to approach it neutrally and without undue promotion.


 * Before establishing the article, please search Wikipedia to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Help:Starting a new page should give you all the guidance you need, but you might also look at Your first article and How to write a great article. Please consider taking a tour through the Tutorial so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. Good luck, and happy editing. :) Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Matt Torres
Matt Torres is a man, happily married to Katie Torres, living in Milwaukee two wonderful pets. Slimer the Corn Snake, and Lucy the Boxer mix puppy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Katiesman (talk • contribs) July 16 2008


 * Hi, and Welcome to Wikipedia! :) In order to create an article about that person, you'll need to be able to assert notability per Wikipedia's notability guidelines on biographies, which will mean utilizing reliable secondary sources, like newspaper articles. An article of this sort would be covered by Wikipedia's guidelines on "biographies of living persons", which in part urges editors to be extremely careful not to include any information that isn't sourced, even if it's true, and also reminds us that biographies particularly must be written from a neutral point of view. At this point, I don't see anything in the text above to suggest that the notability guidelines for inclusion are met here, though volunteering at the Soldiers Home Foundation surely sounds like a nice thing to do.


 * If you are able to assemble necessary sources and if your subject meets the notability requirements, you may choose to create the article yourself, although if you are closely associated with the subject, our conflict of interest guideline urges great caution, particularly with neutrality and not adding information you know to be true but cannot verify. It is strongly recommended that you do not edit an article on a subject with which you have a conflict of interest but instead consider proposing its creation at requested articles or at a related article or relevant WikiProject.


 * Given your username, I rather suspect I should be congratulating you and Katie on your happiness and your good pets and wishing you luck with the marketing program. :D --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Puget Systems article
I was directed here from the COI board, this is an almost verbatim repost. I'd like to see an article about my employer, Puget Systems. After reading through WP:CORP I believe it's notable, and have compiled a list of evidence in userspace here. I've written a draft article here with the idea that if I do the bulk of the work, it's much more likely to actually get posted. I've tried to adhere to NPOV as well as I can, I'm happy to discuss and work on any problems. Because of my COI, I don't want to put the article in mainspace myself. If someone could look over what I've written and put it in mainspace if it passes judgment, I'd greatly appreciate it.

By way of background info, Puget Systems was known as Puget Custom Computers up until earlier this year, there was an article created under that title by a Puget employee as part of a well-intentioned but misguided SEO campaign. It was eventually deleted at this AFD as a combination of notability concerns and spam. Since then it appears to have been recreated and speedied as spam twice, and the page has been salted. I don't know if the creation of those articles was tied to Puget or not. This is a rather regrettable background, especially since businesses are often guilty until proven innocent on Wikipedia. I hope that Puget can be judged based on current notability rather than past articles.

Thanks,

Fire67 (talk) 23:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It sounds like a frustrating situation. I'm sorry to say that I'm not personally comfortable moving an article from your userspace when (a) I'm unfamiliar with the subject and (b) it has previously been deleted for notability concerns at AfD. I have limited time on wiki right now to do research on my own. One of the reasons why COI editing is discouraged is because the view may be unbalanced, and I'd have to research first to find out if this is the case. I'd also want to be quite sure that the notability concerns raised at AfD are amply addressed. I am rather on the side of overkill with sources, myself. If there had not been a successful AfD challenge in the past, I would regard the sources you have as probably just enough to meet the notability requirement of "significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources". Given the AfD, I would really suggest you might wish to locate more.


 * In terms of notability, I think the NYT piece is a good one. It's not in-depth coverage, but it does specifically discuss the company and its work. The Wired review also seems good to me. CRN looks like a reliable source, though I'm not familiar with them. Coverage there is good, too. I'm not sure about the reliability of engadget, but this is a bit worrisome, as they indicate that fact-checking is not necessarily their goal. I would imagine, though, that their inclusion of this bit of news is at least some support of notability, given that they did mention it. Reuters, on the other hand, is a press release, so it is not usable to establish notability because it is connected to the company. You've got three definite sources, and one I'd regard as uncertain. This might escape a speedy deletion through WP:CSD, which is the criterion applied to articles that have been recreated after deletion through deletion debate but that do not answer the issues raised in that debate, but I think additional sourcing would certainly strengthen your case. Even local newspaper profiles or industry magazine coverage would help to substantiate widespread secondary coverage.


 * It's possible that another volunteer here might feel comfortable moving this into article space at this point. Alternatively (not to bounce you elsewhere), you might want to ask at the talk page of a related WikiProject for interested editors who might be familiar with the company and feel more confident in judging its notability and the neutrality of the coverage. You might also consider placing Request edit at the talk page of your subpage, explaining your situation and requesting that the responder consider moving it to article space if satisfied with the material.


 * Good luck with it. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for the feedback. Athaenara posted on the COI board to say that she'd be willing to put it into article space. I do have a few more questions about sourcing, though, if you'd be willing to take a quick look.


 * You're right that Reuters is a press release, unfortunately I can't get the Engadget page to load without crashing my browser at the moment so I didn't get a look at the FAQ. I mostly included those because they seemed relevant to the products they discuss, not to establish notability for the company as a whole. Would the article be better off without those references?


 * From the arguments for notability that I put together, here's some more references to Puget in the media: Tom's Hardware took a look at the Deluge, and later did an extensive comparison with another computer. Tom's Hardware is one of the largest computer oriented reviewers out there, similar to Wired. You probably won't want to take my word for it, though. :-) There are more similar reviews at PC World, Hard OCP, Anandtech, and Silent PC. Local paper coverage includes three articles in the Seattle Times (which is one of two major Seattle area papers), here, here, and here. To be fair, the articles focus on Windows Vista and interview Puget employees as an example of a small business dealing with Vista, rather than focusing on Puget exlusively. I'm inclined to think it's non-trivial coverage, but I'm not certain. KVI is a local radio station that has interviewed and discussed Puget a couple of times. CRN, which you said looked reliable but unfamiliar, included Puget (last!) in a list of leading system builders. Would you consider any of these to be reliable, and if so, should they be added to the article? Do references 'count' twoard notability if they're not actually in the article? I didn't put more references in the draft as I didn't want to have a disproportionate number, but perhaps there's a graceful way to do that that I'm not aware of.


 * Fire67 (talk) 22:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi. I wouldn't remove them from the article, no. They don't hurt anything and may source useful detail; they just don't count towards notability.


 * References do count towards notability even if they aren't used to support facts in the article. I try to work most of mine in, but I'm not above dropping a few extra (if they are relevant and actually add to the article but could not be easily incorporated) into an "External links" section. That's what I'd do here. I think that this one makes a good external link. It shows that the system is notable, but even though its findings are positive it's not so overwhelmingly positive that it looks to me like a product plug. :) (I have no problem taking your word for the site's importance if User:Athaenara is moving it to article space. That makes me a friendly sounding board only. :D) It could potentially be of interest to readers about the company, but it is too specific to necessarily incorporate into the text. Tailor-made EL to my eyes.


 * I'd also include at least one of the Podcasts, not just because they help to establish notability, but also because I love including that kind of thing as an external link. Those are the kinds of external links I like to follow as a Wikipedia user. Presuming you're familiar with the content, I'd go with the one that is most informative about the company and give it a descriptive title like, "Podcast of radio interview with blahblah about blahblah". (Descriptive text is my specialty. ;))


 * I'd save the Seattle papers if the focus is not on the company, but in the event that the article's notability is challenged, that kind of thing might be useful in demonstrating notability at another AfD or at WP:DRV. The CRN reference is a little problematic, though, because according to that link "All unit numbers reported by companies, and rounding of unit numbers permitted." Essentially, that means there's no second-hand fact-checking there. So, while it sounds good, I wouldn't use it.


 * Anyway, I should think you probably have enough notability with those to overcome WP:CSD at least, though you never really know. (As I mentioned, I tend to overkill, if anything.) If the article is challenged, I think you'd have a fair case for arguing notability. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 02:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added the external links that you suggested. Atheanara's moved it into article space here. Would you be willing to watchlist the article's talk page? I'll make any future requests there, but I'm afraid it won't get much traffic. If you're the type who likes to keep a very clean watchlist I'll understand. Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate the time you've put into this. Fire67 (talk) 23:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sure, I'm happy to. My watchlist problem is really the opposite, though, so sometimes things get missed. But I'll keep an eye on it to the best of my ability. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Husalah
mob figaz —Preceding unsigned comment added by GangsterNinja (talk • contribs) 00:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Articles for Famous Magicians
I've now attempted to make articles for two famous magicians, one for James Swoger who had a travelling show from the 1940's to the 1960's, met Harry Houdini the year that he died, invented several tricks magicians still use today, and was one of the largest producers or magic products in the 1940's. He also served in the USO. There are many interesting FACTS about this man, but not many sources for them. Also JAY LESLIE - another famous magician who was tutored by James Swoger and who eventually inherited the man's magic empire. Jay leslie holds two US patents, had his own show at Busch Gardens from 1983-1984, has been the voice of television commercials, and was even on the Bozo the clown show. This article was deleted at "Blatant Advertising" though it advertised nothing other than the existence of this famous magician who has been a childhood hero of mine. --208.40.160.51 (talk) 13:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi. It's hard for me to investigate the first article, since I can't find any record that there was an article for James Swoger (nothing in the deletion log). Presuming that you were the sole contributor to article Jay Leslie, nothing else shows in your contribution log. Perhaps you created an article under a different name? Looking at the deleted contents of Jay Leslie, I suspect your hit a double whammy--lack of reliable sourcing to verify the notability of the man coupled with text like "Jay Leslie still performs his brand of comedy magic out of Orange County California. He also has a line of teaching tools for budding young magicians including instructional videos, and trick kits." If notability is not demonstrated, it can certainly increase the perception that the article serves for product placement, especially when 4 out of 5 external links are to commercial sites.


 * In order to create an article about that person, you'll need to be able to utilize reliable secondary sources, like newspaper articles. You can't include any information that isn't sourced, even if it's true, and you must write from a neutral point of view. (Sticking strictly to sourcing requirements helps with this.) If you want to try again with the article, you should start with looking around for sources that can be used on Wikipedia to verify notability. As it was written, the article offered only a a primary source and four commercial inks:, , & . None of these are usable for that purpose.


 * Good luck with it. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Jay Leslie is at AfD right now, incidentally. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 11:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Unable to load image
I tried to upload a file using the link on the side bar, but when i click on the link to open the upload form, I got denied page: The action you have requested is limited to Autoconfirmed users, Administrators. Can someone explain to me why I'm denied? thanks--Webguru1 (talk) 16:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi. I did a bit more reading after you asked this at my talk page (here and in subsequent section) in case you came back. :) It seems based on this that you're denied because you haven't done enough on Wikipedia yet. Files can only be uploaded by contributors who make that contribution threshold. This was news to me, obviously. I had not attempted to upload an image until I was well past that threshold. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * By now you have more than 10 edits and have edited for much more than 4 days, so I think you're autoconfirmed by now and could upload a file now, if I'm not mistaken. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Henry Ballate
Henry Ballate

Henry was born in Colon, Cuba in 1966. From an early age, he demonstrated an interest in art. At an early age he studied visual arts. Later on he studied photography, design and artistic direction. His solo exhibitions were in Cienfuegos, Matanzas, Habana and group exhibitions at La Bienal de La Habana. In 1994 he left the island to start a new beginning in Miami. Since his arrival he has continued exhibit his art and writing poetry. In 2000 he published Luna Over Miami. Henry studied at La Academia Italiana in Florence, Italy, and he received his Bachelors Degree in Fine Arts from the Miami International University of Art & Design. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miarte (talk • contribs) 21:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You need references: published material talking about him.  If you can't find such material, he might not be notable enough to have an article.
 * The first sentence should tell why he's important: e.g. "... is an artist who has exhibited his art in Cuba and Miami" or whatever; but I think you would have to be able to say more about him than that to establish his notability. See Notability (people). ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)