Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests/Archive 34

HELP - Our Borough listng is being restrained
Apparently for the past few months our entry (Greensboro, PA) has been continuously UNEDITED - we are small community with limited resources and have a historical story to share - please review the last entry made ([] and explain what is the problem with this - I have emailed Dodger as to what the issue and have received no response except for reversion (is this a game?).

Below is a copy of the email sent: I am confused - the recently removed (again) edit made to Greensboro PA was a replacement of the original content that was made over a year ago (before BOTS started doing cleaning) not a template issue.

Regardless, images have been updated with my own photos and content from our Borough website (of which I am the part-time maintainer)has been copied as well as original content. If I am missing something here like some copyleft statement (there is nothing obvious) - let me know, this is getting tiring and appears to defeat the purpose that Wikipedia helped when bridging information across websites.

The message regarding the edit had little relevance to the content that was being removed and does nothing to help continue the shared effort of others to enhance this page. I would hate to believe that Wikipedia has become another bureaucratic organization that stifles web connectivity.

Your assistance is appreciated.

--- This e-mail was sent by user "Rhjiv" on the English Wikipedia to user "DodgerOfZion". It has been automatically delivered and the Wikimedia Foundation cannot be held responsible for its contents.

This really needs to be straightened out - these actions appear petty and makes the entire idea of participating with Wikipedia very frustrating when all we are doing is adding some much needed meat (history) to a small entry about a community the "editor" has little or no actual knowledge of.

Your assistance with this would be greatly appreciated in allowing us to manage our community information in this medium.

Regards Ralph

Rhjiv (talk) 19:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi. The main problem with your additions is that they are copied verbatim from another source. Unless the information is copied from a source that is in the public domain (i.e. does not have any copyright restrictions), material cannot be simply lifted from one website and placed on Wikipedia. This restriction remains in effect even if the editor claims that somebody has granted permission for the text to be used. The other issue with the information provided is that the material about pottery and sustainable development is not really encyclopedic information and reads more as promotional material than statements of fact. If you would care to add information to Wikipedia, paraphrased in your own words while citing the sources you use, then you are certainly welcome to do so. If you are unsure as to how to do that, please reply here and some of the volunteer editors will be able to provide assistance. Best, epicAdam(talk) 20:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Appreciate the follow up and believe I can remedy this with the little time I have available to these efforts. Here is the action plan to do the following:

-first, we will pull the History from our Municipal website that our local historian wrote and place it in the Wikipedia - replacing the municipal site history with a quote from Wikipedia (basically swapping)

-second, I believe economic development & historical pottery has to go back (with some tweaking) - it is as intrinsic as any municipality's amenities (Denver - Culture or Recreation as well as other.  Greensboro historical pottery backfills the information lent through entries like Stoneware - I believe that you will agree that municipal entries are either devoid of information (making them useless) or rife with information coupled with prosperity and economic resurgence (very RAH RAH).

Lastly, I would hope that in the future if Editors (of all articles) take liberty in negating (<1 minute) the efforts of individuals attempting in earnest to expand the Wikipedia (> 1 minute) that they communicate their concerns without the eradication of entire sections, there is a difference between EDITING and CENSORSHIP. Editors should be working together with authors to ADD and SHAPE content rather than dictate editorial opinions in a seemingly arbitrary manner or with little and no communication. I believe that editors are essential to maintaining the legitimacy of Wikipedia but it would appear to me that the type of editorial-ism (our community entry has received) is contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia.

Rhjiv (talk) 14:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You are certainly welcome to add information, but your plan to "pull the History from our Municipal website that our local historian wrote and place it in the Wikipedia" is exactly what you cannot do on Wikipedia. Content, even from local municipal websites, is typically automatically protected by copyright and cannot simply be placed on Wikipedia. This is not just a Wikipedia policy, lifting text from one source and placing it on another is also illegal. As you may have noticed, the Wikipedia editor even warns users in bold print: "Do not copy text from other websites without a GFDL-compatible license. It will be deleted." This is not censorship, it is complying with the law.


 * However, if the website clearly demarcates that its content is in the public domain, then you may use the text. If the website is not in the public domain, you would be wise to take my advice from above and paraphrase the history section, in your own words, citing the municipal website as a source. This, however, does not prohibit users from going in and making changes to your edits. And while not an ideal situation, those users may or may not discuss those changes first. That is simply how Wikipedia works and you must become comfortable with that fact. Best, epicAdam(talk) 15:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed but there appears to be some confusion when I said PULL - I meant REMOVE it from one site and PUT it in Wikipedia (copyrights supported), we have that capability since we manage and are authors of the Municipal site to begin with.


 * At the risk of piling on, I'll add that User:Rhjiv seems to be making a distinction between authors and editors that doesn't exist here. You, me, epicAdam; we're all editors. --AndrewHowse (talk) 15:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Not piling on but it is good to know that there SHOULDN'T be a distinction between editors and authors (although I believe there is in practice) - my personal explanation would be to say AUTHORS create and add content - EDITORS enforce rules of grammar and validity. Ideally, we all self-edit.  I guess my basis ("gripe") stems from the lack of direction (as in none) an "editor" offered in better developing our municipal entry.   It is easy to negate a persons effort but requires some effort to help to correct - the opinions I have received in this forum allow for things to be corrected and improved.  I can only hope that these changes will not be met with simple disregard by our "editor".Rhjiv (talk) 19:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The action you are describing, removing copy from a website you control and placing onto Wikipedia, still violates two principles: it clearly represents a conflict of interest and it can be construed as wikispam. You may risk removal of the copy again based on the action you describe. Sswonk (talk) 23:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In addition to Sswonk's comments above, the copyright would not transfer to Wikipedia. Any text placed in an article is immediately released into the public domain; there is no copyright-protected content on Wikipedia. Further, Others would be able to do what they like with the text. Second, the information you "remove" from the first website would have to be sourced from somewhere. That is to say, the information could not just stand on its own and would have to be referenced back to appropriate books, journals, or anything that would be considered a reliable source. Any information that is left without a source can be removed. Best, epicAdam(talk) 23:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Genre in The Guardian Legend
There has been several anons that have been changing the genre of the video game article The Guardian Legend from an action-adventure game to an action-RPG game, which is against the consensus set forth on the article's talk page after a recent edit war with an anon (see history). It's starting to get to the point where the anons are doing the same thing (WP:SOCK), but also they are removing verifiable content, which is considered vandalism. MuZemike (talk) 12:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You could try requesting some level of page protection at WP:RFP; semi-protection blocks out anons. However, the admins there seem to have a rule of thumb that requires several IP vandalisms per hour in order to justify protection. That page seems to be more in the 1/day range. I realise it's annoying, but it's not as severe as some other cases around here. If the same IP keeps reverting, then you could request a temporary block at WP:AIAV, but make sure to post warnings first. --AndrewHowse (talk) 14:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Update — Same anon keeps changing the information in the article without discussing it at the talk page first; looks like we're going to have another edit war (which is the reason I came here to try to squash it ASAP). I have dropped a message (left no warning this time as I am assuming good faith) to discuss the changes in genre ans other information he/she has made on the article's talk page. If this persists, should I take it up the WP:DR process further, as a request for semi-protection can very well get shot down in this case? MuZemike (talk) 17:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You and I have both left messages in the past hour; that IP appears to be in Japan so the anon editor might very well be offline. There are plenty of escalation steps available, but it seems a bit premature to discuss those; let's AGF for now.--AndrewHowse (talk) 17:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Gary, Indiana, and Miller Beach
This one still keeps coming up. There are two articles involved: Gary, Indiana and Miller Beach.

Undisputed: Miller/Miller Beach was once upon a time an independent municipality which was subsequently incorporated into the City of Gary. Gary as a whole is mostly black. The Miller neighborhood is mostly white. Some in Miller are not happy about being a part of Gary.

The dispute: Some editors (e.g., 67.175.7.85) on the Miller Beach page repeatedly try to state that Miller Beach "is" an independent town. Additional weasel words or language with NPOV problems are used to suggest that the incorporation was forcible or illegitimate.

My position: Miller (aka Miller Beach) in fact is, today, as a legal matter, merely a neighborhood or part of Gary. I don't have a problem with a historical piece on the former Town of Miller Beach, but see it constantly stating, erroneously, that Miller Beach "is" a small town, when it is not an independent entity at all. Even the other editor's edits acknowledge Miller's having been incorporated into the City of Gary as a legal matter. Constantly saying that Miller Beach "is" a small town (not "was") seems more a part of an agenda by the editor involved.

The problem: Constant editing and reverting back and forth...

How to fix the situation so that information -- however one may feel about it -- which is clearly (and admittedly) factually erroneous not be constantly re-edited back in?

See also the discussions on this topic in the Gary and Miller Beach pages. This topic has been discussed among a few editors. Xenophon777 (talk) 18:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * One of the downsides of being the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit, is that anyone can edit! I looked at the history of the Gary page, and there doesn't seem to be a vandalism problem in this respect. I do see occasional (1 or fewer per day, on the whole) reversions as you say to the Miller Beach page. There's no way of stopping that without preventing any anon editor from editing, and the community doesn't usually support semi-protection in this kind of case. My only alternative suggestion would be to consider merging Miller Beach's page into the page for Gary. --AndrewHowse (talk) 18:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Resolving dispute on AIPAC article
A few weeks ago I started trying to clean up the article about AIPAC. It's long and messy with lots of lists and not very easy to read. Worse, the facts and sources are not very well balanced and some appear to be deliberately chosen to cast AIPAC in a negative light. I have typically made these points on the talk page before making direct edits, pointing out what I think are violations of WP:RS, WP:REDFLAG, WP:VERIFY, WP:FRINGE and WP:NOT. (I have been reading a lot of policy pages, but if I am misunderstanding some of the policies, please let me know. Also, I am a member of AIPAC, which I disclosed when I decided to become involved on the page.)

However, my contributions have been reverted almost every time by a few different editors that I suspect (but have not previously accused) of being the same editor, or maybe a few people working closely together. I have done my best to avoid arguments about good or bad faith, and tried to discuss changes on the talk page. I seem to have succeeded, at least for now, in revising the Criticism section, but now I'm debating the History section over the same issue. I have asked that the other editors to explain why they disagree with my interpretation of Wikipedia policies, but none have done so.

The biggest point of disagreement, and the current one I need help with now, is the inclusion of citations from an author named Grant F. Smith. Smith's books are very clearly self-published (Amazon.com lists the publisher as the group the author is director of) and make allegations against AIPAC that have not been reported on by any other news organization. Yet when I point this out, the editor accounts in disagreement won't address the specific evidence or policies. In the latest dispute, in the History section, they now attribute this to Market Watch, which I have pointed out was just hosting a press release by the same group. Even after I argued that blurbs from the book jacket did not count as reliable verification, my changes were reverted and one of these editors quoted all the blurbs to me from the book jacket. Clearly, no progress is being made.

So I'm now looking for outside help in resolving these issues, hence my comment here. I had planned to put a disputed warning on the page, but I'm not sure which template is the right one. And after looking at the WP:DISPUTE page I'm not quite sure what the next step should be to resolve the issue, because arguably there are multiple issues. And I was going to ask for arbitration, but I see that is considered the last step, and I want to be careful. Please let me know what is the best thing to do next, and if anyone else is interested on intervening I would appreciate that, too. Mr. Bergstrom (talk) 19:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi there. Smith's book, despite being published by his own institute, probably meets the criteria of WP:VERIFY. From a quick search, I found that Smith is has also been published in other, more mainstream sources like newspapers and magazines. Granted, those pieces are opinion pieces, but they were still published by a third-party source. I think a simple compromise, since it is controversial, would be to attribute the information to Smith in the article text. For example, "According to Grant F. Smith's book America's Defense Line, ..." Even better, would be if you could find a reliable source to refute Smith's claims. However, I see no reason for the information to be removed. Best, epicAdam(talk) 20:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi epicAdam. I see only a few citations for Smith writing for other places. One is Antiwar.com, which is essentially a blog. Another is the website of David Duke. The only reliable source I see him writing for is the Minneapolis Star-Tribune which is as you note an opinion piece.


 * Meanwhile, I think it's worth taking a closer look at WP:REDFLAG, which states "exceptional claims require exceptional sources." The claim is exceptional for alleging that AIPAC has direct ties to Israel it has not disclosed and that its predecessor organization had done so, too, and Smith's reputation is hard to nail down but obviously there are reasons to be suspicious. Also, when there appears to be no reliable news organization sustaining his claims, it is very unlikely there will be other sources refuting them. --Mr. Bergstrom (talk) 21:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't really see this as a WP:REDFLAG issue. Red Flag claims are seriously outrageous, potentially libelous, statements often pertaining to living individuals. In this case, the accusation that AIPAC is secretly funded by Israel is not a new accusation. Mearsheimer and others have made similar statements in the past. I don't find the accusations made by Smith to be particularly outrageous or, frankly, surprising.


 * Further, I don't think WP:SPS totally applies here either. The prohibition against self-published sources is designed to prevent editors from simply creating their own material in order to provide a citation within an article. Here is an extreme example of where REDFLAG and SPS would come into play. In an article on John Doe, an editor inserts the statement that "John Doe eats human babies for dinner" and then sources that claim to a book that he just had printed. That is an instance where editors would then be obliged to remove the information.


 * The fact Grant F. Smith and the "Institute for Research" are covered in some detail by a myriad of organizations shows that the author is not just some Joe Schmo who decided to write a book one day. Further, the book is also available for sale through major retailers, which is not typical for self-published books. While it is true that you can pay to have a book published (i.e. formatted and bound), self pubs can't really pay retailers to carry a title. And, not only are the retailers carrying the book, but Smith's other books have apparently even sold enough copies to be reprinted in softcover.


 * My main issue with the way the material is presented here is that it is stated as a 100% certain fact within the history section, when it should really be attributed to one author/organization. Wikipedia absolutely permits (and I am perfectly comfortable with) providing statements that are the opinion/research of a single author, as long as they are labeled as such. As opposed to simply removing information entirely, I do trust readers to make their own decisions as to how much weight should be given to a source. Best, epicAdam(talk) 23:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, epicAdam. I understand your points, although I still see this differently. For one thing, I believe the claim should definitely be considered extraordinary, because it directly challenges a widely-accepted fact about AIPAC, and because if Mr. Smith's claims were true then it would force AIPAC to register as a foreign lobby, which its website is very clear that it is not. You are right that the accusation is not new, but that does not make it any less incendiary.


 * I see what you mean about WP:SPS but why should this be judged by an extreme example? Looking at the policy, it says "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." If he is an expert, why does his career just count one op-ed in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune? That seems like a very low bar for "established." And an op-ed is hardly "work in the field". The Star-Tribune did not publish his reporting, only his opinions.


 * Moreover, I see no independent review of his work that is published in any reliable sources. He has blurbs on his books, yes, but are Smith and the Institute really "covered in some detail by a myriad of organizations"? Can you please show me which organizations you mean, and what level of detail? As I have said, I have been unable to find almost anything about Mr. Smith or his Institute (I can find no evidence that anyone else works there) that is not a press release by himself.


 * As far as I can tell, Mr. Smith has set up his own website to give himself a platform. As for being carried in retailers, I don't know the procedure for getting a book listed on Amazon, but it does sell self-published works and so does Barnes & Noble. You note that there is a paperback and hardback version of one of these books -- but the publisher is still himself, not a third party. B&N has a few more books by him, again all published by his low-profile "institute."


 * To sum up, Mr. Smith is making damaging allegations with little established credibility, and there has been no independent review of these claims. Are you sure this warrants mention in Wikipedia? Are there any other editors who have an opinion here? Mr. Bergstrom (talk) 15:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Asked and answered, I believe, Mr Bergstrom. You came here for advice and epicAdam gave it. You're not obliged to like it, but you have nonetheless received that which is given here. Forgive me for using your phrase - are you sure you're not opinion shopping?! As Adam said, finding a reliable source to set against Smith's statements would be the most powerful action to take. --AndrewHowse (talk) 20:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Andrew, I am afraid I disagree not just with epicAdam's interpretation of the policies, but also some of the relevant facts -- this is why I am still asking. But I am new to the non-article/talk parts of Wikipedia, so I want to be careful. What exactly constitutes opinion shopping? Would I be in violation if I took the request either to WP:FTN or the ArbCom? Is the opinion of the first editor I meet equivalent to Wikipedia policy? What are my options, exactly? Mr. Bergstrom (talk) 22:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * A few other points to clarify: I certainly understand your point that it would be preferable, in most circumstances, to present a refutation of certain claims rather than simply delete them. However, part of the problem is that there has been no refutation or even confirmation of Mr. Smith's writings.


 * Additionally, I have brought facts to bear that Mr. Smith does not meet WP:RS. This requires some detailed examination by another editor, and based on Adam's replies, I do not believe he has examined the issue closely.


 * If you look at the talk page, I have been trying for several weeks to achieve consensus on the page, but the other editors, some of whom have no real history of editing Wikipedia (and I say this even though I am fairly new) but appear only to exist to reinstate mentions of Mr. Smith's writings. It is very frustrating, and impossible to achieve consensus with editors who will not make a good faith consideration of my points.


 * I have now looked at WP:CANVAS and I believe it does allow me recourse to consider taking the issue to another board where I will get a more thorough response. But please do not think I am simply ignoring opinions I do not like. All I am asking for is a full examination of the facts. Mr. Bergstrom (talk) 23:19, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I understand. You say you disagree with Adam - fair enough - and that you disagree with some facts? That doesn't seem right. Opinion shopping is simply asking one's question in multiple fora until one receives the answer one wishes to hear. You're entirely free to post at WP:FTN; I have no experience of that so I have no idea how it will be received. You could try a request for comment. I don't think ArbCom is the right place for this; this is just a species of content dispute really.. --AndrewHowse (talk) 02:54, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't mind if Mr. Bergstrom wants another opinion. In my mind, this case isn't as cut and dry as most WP:SPS or WP:RS cases; this situation is more of a gray area. Here, there is a book written by a person who seems to have attracted a reasonable amount of attention for his work, but rational people can still debate whether or not Grant F. Smith is an "expert" on the subject. If there were other reliable sources on this topic, I would be fine with excluding this information; however, the fact that so few reliable sources even exist leaves me to err even further on the side of including the information, albeit with a caveat warning readers about the source. Ideally, if somebody actually has this title, it would be great to find the sources cited in the book and then use those sources to reference the information provided, if possible. To me, that is far preferable than removing information on a subject because that information portrays an organization in a less-than-flattering light. I feel as if this book portrayed AIPAC in an extremely positive light that there would be little-to-no objection to its use. If this issue really were as inflammatory as Mr. Bergstrom seems to believe it is, I feel like there would be a greater number of users (out of the thousands who have viewed the article) voicing their opposition to the source. Instead, the information has lasted on the page for months with very little reaction whatsoever until recent. Having said all that, it's still the user's right to get additional views on this as no single person is the final authority on any of this. Best, epicAdam(talk) 05:46, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you both for your time. I will probably need another day or so to write something a little more thorough, one thing I did learn from this conversation is I will have to be very clear about facts and how I believe they relate to policies. When I do ask again, I'll link back to it here so others can follow this discussion. Mr. Bergstrom (talk) 19:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

One definition of "Cobble"
Greetings!

There is a definition of the word "cobble" that is missing from the Oxford English dictionary although it has been in use for years.

A cobble is a clearing in the woods preserved as a bird sanctuary.

There are two entries under cobble, (in Wikipedia), which already make use of this definition, but the definition itself is not given.

I tried adding this definition already but, I gather, it was edited out?

What is the best way to successfully add a meaning for a word which has been in longstanding use, but isn't listed in the dictionary yet?

Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goosefat (talk • contribs) 19:37, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, Thanks for posting here. The page I think you looked at, Cobble, is a disambiguation page. It serves to direct readers and editors to various encyclopaedic articles that could be known as Cobble. However, the example you give is more of a dictionary definition, and is hence suitable for Wiktionary but not Wikipedia. If you can find some good sources from which to build an article, then all well and good. But the entry you added doesn't lead to any article. --AndrewHowse (talk) 20:17, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * See also Avoid neologisms. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:19, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

David Foster Wallace
DATE OF DEATH WAS SEPT 13, NOT SEPT 12. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.185.50.219 (talk) 08:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If you can provide a source for that date then you can either change the article yourself or discuss it at the related talk page discussion. But note all the quoted sources in the article and talk page refer to a death on Friday night (the 12th). MilborneOne (talk) 09:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The sources currently aren't very clear or detailed. The only time curently given in all sources (e.g. here) is that 9:30 pm Friday night his wife found him. It isn't clear from the sources I found whether or not he was dead at the time he was found, but it seems that way. If you have reliable sources to back up your claim, by all means insert them in the article. Everyme 09:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Jim Webb
Please review the name over the photo of Senator Jim Webb. 'Poo Poo Butt' is inappropriate, is not made reference to anywhere else, and is someone's idea of humour I would guess. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.57.116.32 (talk) 10:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Vandalism by 70.174.85.52 has been removed; thank you for notifying. --Jh12 (talk) 10:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Personal behavior check
I've been encountering a great deal of difficulty and stress both in myself and in other editors in trying to discuss Talk:California Proposition 8 (2008). I've tried to keep discussion policies in mind, but I've gotten in a little over my head. I seem to be only antagonizing other editors whose personal views are sharply different from my own common wisdom. I am autistic, and I have no intuitive instinct for being tactful, so I sometimes have to subdivide my cognative skills to do it (with mixed results). Please counsel me. - Gilgamesh (talk) 14:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Gilgamesh, Thanks for posting here. I'm not sure I'm so well qualified to answer your question, since I'm rarely accused of diplomacy myself, but I'll offer an opinion anyway ... I looked at the discussion at Prop 8, and also at Category talk:Homophobia, and all I saw was editors expressing markedly different opinions in more-or-less civil ways. It can certainly be a little stressful, but I didn't notice any allegations of bad faith, nor very much in the way of personal attacks.
 * On the content matter, I'm going to look for another category to suggest. While I can, personally, sympathise with the idea that any bias is per se irrational, I do wonder if there's some other way of identifying this as "likely to be perceived as discriminatory" without using that category. Not going to change anything yet, just looking.
 * I encourage other assistants to offer their own assessments too. --AndrewHowse (talk) 15:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Chinese gymnasts
The following sections, independently submitted, appear to concern the same set of articles. In the interests of economy and consistency, please read them together. --AndrewHowse (talk) 01:32, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Disagreeing with editor about interpretation on Wikipedia's rules and regulations
Dear sir,

I am requesting assistance that I disagree with one of the editors on what kind of information could be included in a wikipedia article and what information could not. Could I get a third party to help me?

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tinbin (talk • contribs) 00:00 13 September 2008


 * Which article are you having problems with? -epicAdam(talk) 01:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Chinese gymnastics articles
I've been having issues with two editors on articles for two of the Chinese gymnasts involved in the age controversy scandal at the Olympics, Deng Linlin and Jiang Yuyuan. Both of these articles have been subject to vandalism by people on both sides of the case and it has taken considerable effort to source and get them to a point where they don't violate WP:NPOV. However, there are currently two editors--one a single-purpose account and the other with a possible conflict of interest--who have decided the article is biased, is mean to the Chinese gymnasts, that the sources don't count, etc. and have repeatedly tried infuse the articles with their POV and delete sourced material. I've tried to explain the way RS and other policies work, but it's not penetrating. Today the SPA has gone off the tracks. He started out as a vandal a few days ago, calmed down and started talking, and is now threatening to vandalise other articles if he doesn't get his way.

I've tried asking for help at the Wiki Gymnastics project and BLP, but I think at this point most people have been scared away. I'm the only one left trying to sort this out, and I'm really losing patience despite myself. Any help, feedback, whatever would be appreciated. DanielEng (talk) 00:01, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi there. I read over the talk pages and checked out the sources. The user making the edits is clearly just trying to cause trouble. If he is insistent on changing the information, then put him on notice that he will likely be inviolation of WP:3RR, and if he does so, then report him. If you need somebody else to revert the changes so you don't go over the limit yourself, let me know. Best, epicAdam(talk) 01:26, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your help, Epicadam. It makes me a little less frustrated with these articles to read this. The editor complaining directly above my post is the SPA account and one of the two causing trouble. I hadn't even realized he was here until I saw these two posts linked. I would definitely appreciate help if I have to revert, and will contact you. Thank you again! Best, DanielEng (talk) 02:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Adding to this, the SPA editor is still all but spitting blood on the Talk Page. I've basically tried to say "I'm not answering this anymore," but apparently it's made the SPA angrier. As long as it's confined to the Talk Page, I'm guessing the best course of action is to ignore it completely? DanielEng (talk) 20:21, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:3O or WP:RFC seems useful in this case. If there are serious WP:BLP concerns, head off to WP:BLP/N.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  20:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Request assistance on "Jiang Yuyuan" article
This 3rd thread was submitted after the previous two but was moved here (by me) for clarity. --AndrewHowse (talk) 16:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Lucasbfr blocked User:Tinbin2 as a sock of User:Tinbin, used to evade a block. --AndrewHowse (talk) 16:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I recently added information from chinese sources to "Jiang Yuyuan" article. I discussed about using the chinese sources with editor "DanielEng" before adding them and he agreed that chinese sources can be used and I added the relevant parts from the original texts for easy reference of translation. According to wilkpedia regulation Where editors use a non-English source to support material that is likely to be challenged, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content., therefore I am obeying wikipedia's regulations. But other editors keep removing my chinese sources. Therefore, I need assistance on this matter. 08:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tinbin2 (talk • contribs)


 * Note: Nobody said this user had carte blanche with Chinese sources; he was pointed toward the appropriate text in WP:RS, and since then, other editors have gone to great pains to explain everything as to why his sources and the content he has added are inappropriate. Also, this is a sockpuppet of User:Tinbin, who has been blocked for 3RR and has now used a grand total of three IPs and two different sockpuppets to try to evade his original block. DanielEng (talk) 08:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Tinbin, you really are digging a hole for yourself here... -- lucasbfr  talk 09:10, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Editor's discussion page BLOCKED for IPs?
User:BillCJ reverted a new section (popular culture) I added to the V Bomber article, while I was still editing refs. I undid it, added a ref and a Wikilink that shows some significance, and added a notice on the discussionboard. However, by looking at User_talk:BillCJ, this "Note to "disruptive" IP" (at #28, for heaven's sake! Is everybody supposed to find it there?)) makes me believe this editor is somewhat hostile towards IPs:

"To the "disruptive IPs: Don't waste your time posting here or responding to this - it will be removed. I can easily add dozens of fact tags to the A-7 Corsair II article. But other editors would object to the "clutter", and replace it with an article tag! Rather than spending your time tying to "disrupt" WP to prove whatever point you're trying to make, you could actually spend some time improving the actualy content of an article, such as adding actual inline citations to the A-7. I know that's not as much fun as being "disruptive", but please remember WP is still an encyclopedia - for now, anyway!"

Looks like this Editor thinks that every IP is disruptive. Consequently, his discussion page can't be edited. So, how am I supposed to get into contact with Bill if he decides to delete my entry again? Is this kind of unfriendly behaviour allowed? What about WP:Bite? Not to speak of that reverting a totally serious and certainly not vandalous IP edit within ten minutes smells of WP:ownership. Could someone pls take a look at this, and maybe advice the editor to relax a bit? 89.182.194.94 (talk) 18:53, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have left a note on his talk page about your message here. You must assume good faith as the messages to disruptive IPs is not related to your content dispute at V bombers and you have made a few accusations that could be considered as personal attacks that are not relevant to this forum. As this is a content dispute a message on Talk:V bomber should get a reply from User:BillCJ you do not need to use his talk page. MilborneOne (talk) 20:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Hi, Thanks for posting here. There are a number of options available to you. First, you could register an account. That allows everyone to see your editing history and hence allows you to gain credibility from a constructive history. Second, you could use the article's talk page to discuss the article; I think BillCJ listed that among the bullets at the top of his page. Third, and I especially recommend this one, you could assume good faith and even note that BillCJ posted that message days before you edited, so it's probably not aimed at you! And, fourth, you could add the reference at the same time as adding the text, which would avoid the whole unreferenced thing.
 * Sorry for the long list. Seriously, don't be discouraged. Some editors here are more friendly to IPs; some have had bad experiences and are consequently more sceptical towards IPs. Stick with it. Happy editing, --AndrewHowse (talk) 20:34, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, thx for weighing in folks. Just three points in return; Firstly, I didn't ACCUSE Bill of anything, I was stating facts: He DID revert my edit within 7 minutes, his discussion page CAN't be edited by IPs, and instead of an explanation he HAS this somewhat discriminating statement on his discussion page. And he didn't put anything at the discussion page after reverting me. I'm still waiting for an answer there. God knows if he'll notice anything I post there! But he WOULD be reminded if an editor posted on his discussion page. See the difference?
 * Secondly, yeah, I should have logged in, but I had a spontaneous idea when reading the V-Bomber article and I didn't think adding relevant information would be controversial. Since I want to preserve my privacy, it's too late to log in now (this would link my username to my IP). And thirdly, now what's your proposal for my most urgent concern? If I get into trouble with this guy, how shall I communicate with him? I can totally understand if userpages have to be protected against vandalism, but then, a notice about this should be at the start of his pages, and secondly, how shall non-vandalizing users get into contact with this editor??? 89.182.194.94 (talk) 21:53, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You can post at Talk:V bomber I guess. He's not obliged to read it, nor to respond, but that's the best place to discuss that page. He's not obliged to read or respond to his own talk either. For that matter, MilborneOne has pointed him to this page too. --AndrewHowse (talk) 02:49, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that reminder by MilborneOne is helpful. I just wanted to point out to Bill that I'm not one of those vandalizing IPs, and that we should dicuss it if he has a problem with one of my edits. Good that MO relayed that message. Milborne citicized an edit on that talk page, too, and even though I think he was a bit nitpicking, I changed the wording of that section. However, even though I understand the need to safeguard some editors from vandals messing up their user pages, I still think a notice at the start of the page would be helpful. Isn't there a template for this somewhere? Something like: "Because of vandalism, these userpages have been blocked against edits by IP users. If you want to discuss with this editor, pls use the discussion pages of the articles.". Imho a clarificiation like this would be a good idea.89.182.194.94 (talk) 09:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure what message you had but if I try and edit his talk page I get the message Note: This page has been semi-protected so that only established users can edit it. MilborneOne (talk) 10:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't get that message, Milborne, because the "edit" link doesn't even show up (made me first think something is wrong with my browser or so). There's no way an IP can edit this page. So, the message you, as a logged-in-editor, get when editing this page is somewhat paradox. After all, you can edit it, so it doesn't have to concern you, but the IPs who would really be interested in getting this information can never see it. Strange.89.182.194.94 (talk) 12:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Btw, Milborne, could you pls relay to Bill that his conspiracy theories about me are useless? To the best of my knowledge, I have never edited articles about military planes before, and I don't remember ever meeting BillCJ anwhere here. I also am not a well known editor, but just a part time contributor with very few edits, all in all (both logged in and as an IP combined). Do a checkuser on me, if you like. I don't have any problem with admins checking my edit history here, it's only that I don't want everybody to know the IP of my useraccount. And I think it's strange that Bill has a discussion with you, where I can't participate, instead of using the IP talkpage or the discussion page at V-Bomber. Somewhat impolite, imho. 89.182.194.94 (talk) 12:53, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Bush Dooctrine
A new post was added today that while it quotes a source, it relates to partisan views expressed to explain the lack of knowledge of a candidate. The individual adding the section is clearly using your semi-protection policy to avoid having it changed or flagged just long enough for people unfamiliar with the issue to be confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azrights (talk • contribs) 20:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You can discuss Bush Doctrine at Talk:Bush Doctrine, and you can edit it when your account becomes autoconfirmed (takes 4 days if you make 10 edits). Your theory about an individual using semi-protection sounds strange to me. There are a huge number of autoconfirmed users and the article has been edited by 12 different user accounts today. Do you have a specific request for editor assistance? PrimeHunter (talk) 23:07, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Audrey Hepburn
Hi,

I recently posted a line stating that Canada Post issued a stamp of Audrey Hepburn. This is public knowledge, and the stamps were sold at every outlet in Canada.

I had a "bully" MarnetteD delete my entry.

Is there some way of resolving this? From what I can tell this person can be quite aggressive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcatch23 (talk • contribs) 02:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If somebody has requested a source then please provide one before readding something, even if you consider it trivial. See Verifiability. Your post to MarnetteD seemed aggressive (and ignorant of Wikipedia policy) to me, and some people easily respond to aggression with more aggression. Try being polite to avoid escalation. Note that the article history shows another editor removed it for not being important. Also note that her appearance on an American stamp is already mentioned with a source at the end of Audrey Hepburn, with an indication this is significant. And she did make American films. Has she made any Canadian? If stamps of other countries should be mentioned then surely it should be in the same place and not in another section. You could suggest the addition at Talk:Audrey Hepburn and see whether others support it. See also Dispute resolution if you really want the addition and don't get support on the talk page, but is this little factoid worth such effort? PrimeHunter (talk) 12:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't consider this a mere "factoid." I also don't think supplying a reference for everything in pulic knowledge necessary. For the sake of wiki harmony I will re-add it with a reference and hope that that will settle the issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcatch23 (talk • contribs) 04:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * For the record this editor added the unsourced and improperly placed info four times and did not respond to edit summaries or talk page messages before trying to bring about wikiharmony. MarnetteD | Talk 04:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Japanese version
HI,

I was viewing the Japanese version of Wikipedia when I noticed, at the top left hand corner that it said: uikipideia where it should say waikipideia. (the u and the wa look very symelar).

Just pointing it out :)

Joe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.246.47 (talk) 09:23, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You should probably point that out on their website, to be honest :). But I'm pretty sure they intend it that way. -- lucasbfr  talk 09:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Robert deMaine
I am an associate and admirer of this concert cellist, and believe I have revised his Wikipedia biographical entry to conform to a more neutral point of view. A stub writer whose Wiki moniker is "Chubbles" had placed the "conflict of interest" notification at the top of Robert's entry, and I am hoping that this issue can soon be resolved, and the notification can be removed. Please feel free to edit this page further if it is not deemed to be enough of a neutral nature! Thank you very much.

Respectfully, Julia Grabowska ("Griffbrett") —Preceding unsigned comment added by Griffbrett (talk • contribs) 18:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi there. The COI tag was inserted on the page because User:Rdemaine contributed significantly to the page. Wikipedia frowns on the subject of an article actually contributing to it. The best way to resolve any conflict of interest is to be bold and find reliable sources (i.e. independent, third-party sources) that reference the information provided in the article. For future communications on talk pages like these, don't forget to sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically add your user name. Best, epicAdam(talk) 18:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That page would benefit greatly from some references! --AndrewHowse (talk) 18:56, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Edgewood, New Mexico and Moriarty, New Mexico articles - potential vandalism or misunderstanding of WP:ELNO
Today, I added links to virtual tours of these two communities to their respective articles. User:Nyttend Nyttend has, despite my explanations to the contrary, repeatedly deleted these on the basis of his/her decision that they are either spam or some violation of the WP:ELNO rules - to the point of violating the "three undo a day" standard. I've reread the spam and ELNO guidelines, and these links clearly do not violate them. I am requesting assistance in resolving this issue. --Weckerleje (talk) 23:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weckerleje (talk • contribs) 23:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The same problem occurred with the link I placed on the Torrance County, New Mexico article.--Weckerleje (talk) 23:54, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, Thanks for posting here. It's possible that you're reading WP:ELNO rather narrowly; it's not sufficient that an external link isn't prohibited; it has to be worthy of inclusion. WP:ELYES provides some balance. Perhaps you could use the talk page(s) to explain why you think the links are worth including and then there could be some discussion, rather than just edit warring. 3RR doesn't apply to removal of vandalism, so if the other editor has a good faith belief that you're just adding spam links, then s/he wouldn't be in breach of 3RR. I know you don't think it's spam, but that's why you need to discuss it, not just revert each other. Happy consensus-building, --AndrewHowse (talk) 01:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * There's one fact here that is very telling on the issue of your intent in adding the links. You stated on Nyttendat's talk page that you "run a web design and hosting company". Well it just so happens that the two seemingly unrelated sites you linked to, and  (actually you inserted three links but two are separate pages from the same site), are both designed by the same webpage design firm, which I'm intentionally not naming but anyone following those links can see this for themselves. You also added to Torrance County, New Mexico, this link which, lo and behold, was also designed by the same firm. You added another link that page,  and, though I didn't find the designer listed on the site, I was quite unshocked to find on the design firm's website that it too was designed by the same firm—your firm. The evidence is more than damning; it's incontrovertible. So, whether the sites you've added do or do not fail WP:EL is really beside the point. You are indeed a spammer, spamming Wikipedia, just in a way slightly more difficult to recognize than the average because as a designer, you avoid the obviousness of promoting a single site, thus cloaking yourself a bit with seemingly unrelated external links. You seem to care about your region, and some of your edits seem genuinely intended to help the articles. By all means stay around and make more good edits. However, what is going on is clear. Any further link spamming will be reverted on sight. 3RR does not apply, and if you persist, warnings and ultimately a block for spamming may result.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Edgewood, New Mexico and Moriarty, New Mexico articles - potential vandalism or misunderstanding of WP:ELNO - Response
Response re-grouped --AndrewHowse (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't figure out how to respond directly to the feedback I got to my original request. I'd like to thank AndrewHowse and Nyttend for the polite and thoughtful responses, here and elsewhere. As for "Fuhgettaboutit":


 * Thank you for your rather "direct" comments. First, let us be clear on one issue - I'd like suggest that you, and those who follow on if need be, be clear about the fact that it was I that brought this forward for clarification. I find it rather confusing that a request for assistance would be answered in such an apparently hostile manner.

I thought it was fairly obvious in the discussions, early on, that I was, in fact (through my firm; I get to do some community service things because I HAVE the firm to begin with) the author of the content in question. How anyone could see "cloaking" here - especially given my user name - is not entirely clear to me. I apologize for any lack of clarity on that issue - please understand that I do not spend a lot of time producing or editing Wikipedia articles. I am certainly the author of the content in question, and hold copyright to the imagery. There's nothing to be shocked or "unshocked" by, here, nor is there anything to be proud of or ashamed of - we do a lot of work for local and regional communities and organizations, and we do it because we are who we are, and not for some cheap advantage, as you seem to suggest. I'd be delighted if you could point me to the specific policy that forbids a webmaster from posting a link to a nonprofit site he or she has created. Please be specific, as opposed to providing a statement on your personal philosophy. I'd also appreciate a link to the policy that gives you the authority to make threats - anonymously, of course - on behalf of Wikipedia.

Please note that I am also the editor of nm-central.com, and have been for months, and have never even thought of posting a link at Wikipedia to that site because it would be a clear violation of Wikipedia policy. Ditto for most of the other sites we've produced.

Frankly, I find your accusatory language and name-calling offensive. First, let me point out that the links are for local, community service nonprofits. And riddle me this, Batman (dating myself, here); what makes you think I need to spam these links at all? Type "edgewood new mexico" or "moriarty new mexico" (please feel free to leave out the quotes - it's more fun that way), and you'll see the virtual tours of Edgewood and Moriarty on the second page of the Google results. As for the EMIFPA link, I created the initial site AND the current one for free. There's no profit motive here. It's just useful and/or content, and I frankly think it's a shame that it won't be available to Wikipedia readers.

I'm more than a little disappointed to see this kind of attitude being displayed in response to a request for help. It will certainly affect my inclination to spend time on Wikipedia in the future. I actually took the time to track down the vandals at the local high school (East Mountain High School; see the edit history on the Edgewood page) who were vandalizing articles all over Wikipedia, and consider myself to have been a good "wiki-citizen" overall. I don't see that happening again, and to be perfectly blunt, I don't see myself developing or contributing a lot of content in the future if this is how requests for assistance are handled by the establishment. I'd like to recommend far less suspicion and much better manners in dealing with those who come to the editors for help.--Weckerleje (talk) 14:08, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * One note on grouping: each section has an "edit" link to the right, opposite the section header, in most browsers. --AndrewHowse (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks...I tried that on the original response, but got a message that it couldn't be edited. The guidance suggested re-posting on the active page.  Did I goof somehow?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weckerleje (talk • contribs) 14:41, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry you feel attacked, Weckerleje, but you've run up against a pretty concrete community norm here. Self-linking (that is, an editor linking to a site he or she created, owns, has some stake in, etc) is heavily frowned upon, and you'll find very little good will here for people who do it. Mostly this is because we spend far more time than anyone likes cleaning out link cruft - links people make to their personal blogs, links people make to their own business, links people make to things they have a vested interest in promoting. The best way to avoid being jumped upon for posting spammy links is to not post links to things you're connected to yourself. That doesn't mean you should ask your friend Bob down the street to make an account and do it (that's called meat puppetry and it's also against the rules); rather, it means that you should suggest and describe the link on the article's talk page. Once it's there, other editors will check it out; if the link is valid and useful enough, another editor will add it to the article. I know this response may not satisfy your desire to be vindicated and have someone here tell you that your links are just fine, but honestly, we have no way of knowing if your intentions are good or if you're a slimy self-promoter, and it's better to just avoid triggering people's knee-jerk "omgspam" response and go overboard in the other direction, giving other editors control of posting "your" links. keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 14:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply. I maintain that the links are useful and not spam, but if this is a "concrete community norm," I can accept it; certainly, this appears to be the position of most responders, here and otherwise.  I do reserve the right to disagree with it, however, at least to some extent.  While I agree that self-promotion should be discouraged, excluding links to content for no other reason than the fact that the person who created it provides the link seems counterintuitive to me - a link should be examined with respect to the content, and its value should be judged on that basis and whether or not the content violates realistic guidelines.  Allowing "norms"  of this kind to get in the way of making information available smacks of censorship.  I've generated a good bit of well-received content on the web - some dating back to before Wikipedia came to be - and it seems odd to me that none of it can be linked from Wikipedia simply because I produced it (so far, nobody has raised a single objection other than this.  I have virtual tours of the Grand Canyon, Sedona, the historic Waco Bridge, Mesa Verde, and Salinas National Monument, just to name a few, and you seem to be telling me that I can't share these with the Wikipedia community for the simple reason that I produced them.  Frankly, I think you're selling the community short on a lot of potentially interesting content.


 * I'll overlook the "slimy self-promoter" comment except to note that self-promotion is not something I need - and if this is the perception of what I'm trying to do, and there's no way to convince the powers-that-be otherwise, I see little point in pursuing the matter further. I'll post the suggestion on the talk page as you recommend, and that will be the end of it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weckerleje (talk • contribs) 16:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We're coming from very different places because I can't imagine not knowing, without ever looking at a single policy page, that it would be inherently inappropriate to add links to multiple sites I was both personally invested in and financially connected to, and to further fight over their inclusion, regardless of how pure my underlying motives were. In many settings the standard is to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Even if you really believe adding these links doesn't promote the sites, do you think this activity doesn't very much have an appearance of impropriety on its face? Reading as true your statement that your firm doesn't need the promotion, adding the links nevertheless does act to promote—of course this is the case because the linked sites have prominent links to your firm included—so your actual promotional intent, or not, is not relevant to the appropriateness of the conduct.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Why are all entries we place for iComment.com removed?
We are trying to add our new patent pending technologies but nothing we add sticks. iComment is a new unique patent pending technology. Please let us know how to include it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icomment (talk • contribs) 15:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi. Unfortunately iComment is not yet notable for inclusion at Wikipedia. Please see what makes an article or subject notable for inclusion on Wikipedia and What Wikipedia is not. Best, epicAdam(talk) 15:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

There are over 100 download sites that have written about icomment, reviewed it, noted its unique technology. Even AOL's staff wrote about it. Doesn't that make it notable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.225.132.174 (talk) 18:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It depends on the source. For example, a download website may say what iComment does and why it's unique, however that does not necessarily make the technology notable. Notability would be achieved if iComment were highlighted in a mainstream publication that details why the technology has received mass attention. If a reliable source can reach those qualifications, then the next step would be to write the article using those sources as a basis. Best, epicAdam(talk) 18:40, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Changing Page Title/URL
My friend - British musican and writer John Moore asked me to help him change the title to his page here. We both have looked and see no way of editing it.

Here is his page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Moore_(drummer)

This title is inaccurate. He is more than simply a "drummer". He played drums for a very short time during what has now been a long career as a multi-instrumentalist (primarily guitar) and writer.

We would like to know how we can change the title to his page to:

John_Moore_musician/writer

Could you please help us with that?

signed and dated

Dave Cromwell65.200.151.162 (talk) 20:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Any registered editor can move a page to an unused name; I moved it to John Moore (musician) since Wikipedia pages don't have slashes in their titles. --AndrewHowse (talk) 21:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your help with this.

Dave Cromwell65.200.151.162 (talk) 15:49, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit war on Victory
I have found myself engaged in an edit war on the Victory page with a user (Projectyugo:Talk) who insists on posting a particular example of a Pyrrhic victory alongside the "See also" entry for Pyrrhic victory. I have tried to engage this user in a discussion, but he only responds by re-editing the page with cryptic edit summaries. I have even taken his example and added it to the Pyrrhic victory page, with proper wiki notations, but this user insists on placing this particular example on the Victory page, where it is out of place. I'm seeking an impartial third party to help resolve this issue. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you're pretty clearly right on this one. I'll add it to my watchlist and keep an eye on it too. --AndrewHowse (talk) 21:29, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit War on Van Allen Radiation Belt
There is an edit war in progress at: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Van_Allen_radiation_belt&action=history

Please advise.

Furthermore, the user responsible for the majority of the reversions has attempted to remove this message. -80.42.161.45 (talk) 14:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for coming here for help. The content you are attempting to add to the article is very contentious, so you should probably politely discuss your requested changes on the talk page and stop editing the article in the meantime.  Keep in mind that the editors who discuss with you there are probably going to mention your serious edit warring up until now (if you apologize for your edit warring, you might be able to continue a discussion).  They might also bring up the fact that you're trying to push a fringe theory so make sure to read up on that page.  Let me know if you need any further assistance.  ~a (user • talk • contribs) 14:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * My original edit was not vandalism, so both editors in question have violated the three revert rule (which I was not aware of.) You say the information is contentious, would you care to explain what you mean by that? You also say as a fact that I'm 'pushing a fringe theory', could you elaborate on that as well? The current information on the page is flagged for neutrality and weasel words; it explicitly makes false claims used by moon landing deniers as fact. *That* is a fringe theory. I corrected these issues and my edit was reverted without comment as 'vandalism', when it clearly was not by any definition. Now if I violated wikipedia's policies or if there was some problem with my edit that made it inferior to the prior material (which was flagged as inappropriate) then I'd be happy to discuss it and make any necessary corrections; if someone would only tell me what the problem with it was. -80.42.161.45 (talk) 14:47, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I never called your edits vandalism: other editors did. Your original edit removed lots of material from the article which is why I called it contentious.  As you can see, I added a strike-through in my edit above:  I consider your edit to be a fringe-theory and others will too, but that is irrelevant here.  I was just informing you that it will likely come up in conversation and it is all up to debate here.  Starting up a conversation there will probably bring to light the issues people have with your edits.  ~a (user • talk • contribs) 14:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi there. There are certain exceptions to the 3RR rule, one of which include reverting obvious vandalism. I'm sorry to say, but your edits to Van Allen radiation belt constituted vandalism, (in particular removal of content). I understand that you are a new user and you may be unfamiliar with wikipedia policy, however rather than obstinately removing content and adding your own material multiple times, you could've dropped my a line at my talk page, or on the articles talk page. Thanks --Superflewis (talk) 14:58, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * While all the reversions are unfortunate, it's not at all clear that 80.42...'s edits are vandalism. S/he removed some unsourced and fringe-ish material, and added content in its place that appears to be sourced. Should it be discussed on the talk page? Absolutely. Is it vandalism? That's certainly not been proven, and it might well not be. --AndrewHowse (talk) 15:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it is very clear that the IPs edits were not "obvious vandalism". Perhaps Superflewis is a bit overeager with his new AWB tools, considering other questionable reports of vandalism at AIV (see )  Gnome de plume (talk) 15:13, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to go out on a limb here and accuse Superflewis of having a vested interest in the material I removed. I hope I'm wrong, and if so I apologise, but it's quite clear that the edits I made didn't constitute a malicious attempt to violate the integrity of wikipedia. His problem with them has always been with the material they replaced, he's been quite clear about that. -80.42.161.45 (talk) 15:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please do not falsely accuse me. I have no interest in the content that you replaced or placed up. I do however have a problem with removal of good quality content without a reason. Not explaining why remove content and insert your own material does constitute vandalism, and this becomes even more controversial is the new material is a Fringe theory. --Superflewis (talk) 15:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec)I don't know if you have any evidence for that, 80.42..., but if you don't I'd strongly advise you to strike that. Use at the beginning and at the end. Each of Superflewis' reversions came after one of your changes/reversions; I think s/he's just watching IP edits that result in a net removal of characters (bytes) and often reverts those rather quickly. Her/his contributions show multiple edits per minute, seemingly using Huggle, which is a semi-automated tool for this and many other repetitive tasks. Anyway, please show evidence or withdraw that last post. Thanks --AndrewHowse (talk) 15:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Superflewis, the IP was removing Apollo-denier positions and adding more conventional positions. Seems like a removal of a fringe theory to me. For example, see this diff. --AndrewHowse (talk) 15:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops. No, that was MY mistake.  I have added strike-throughs above.  ~a (user • talk • contribs) 15:43, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec)I couldn't agree more. Please also follow suggestions to discuss the content issues on the talk page instead of discussing editors and vandalism and rules.  We all make mistakes, but advice to focus on the content have gone largely ignored.  ~a (user • talk • contribs) 15:39, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Gnome de plume's edit looks to be a good compromise position to work from in that section. Everyone take it to the talk page, please. (And good lord, the edit history is horrid - 3RR is a distant memory, if that...) Tony Fox (arf!) 15:49, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Gnome de plume's edit is superior to mine. If it remains I will consider the matter closed. -80.42.161.45 (talk) 16:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The point here is not the content. I honestly don't mind if you reinstate 80.42.161.45 contributions into the article. The problem I have is that s/he didn't explain why s/he editing out a large portion of the article and replaced it with their own material (I reverted it in the first place, because it looked suspicious), and rather than sending me a message, s/he pursued a stubborn policy of reverting my edits. . .I also think that this was completely unacceptable - I'd like an explanation, thanks --Superflewis (talk) 16:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I did provide a summary after you requested it; you continued to revert my edits. 'Looking suspicious' does not make an edit vandalism, and as I understand it, knowingly falsely reverting an edit as vandalism is itself vandalism, and my reverts of your reverts were acceptable. (However, they were not productive while you were continuing to flaunt the rules, so I should have requested assistance immediately. I'll know better next time.) Nor will I strike out the accusation, given that it was properly qualified. I am not stating it as a fact, and you are free to disprove it by your actions. I will point out that I apologised in the event that the accusation was incorrect, while you have steadfastly refused to back down from your demonstrably false accusation of vandalism. -80.42.161.45 (talk) 16:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)An edit summary would certainly have helped. Not sure it was worth having an edit war however. And retraction would seem to be appropriate and has already been requested here and at the IP's talk page. --AndrewHowse (talk) 16:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Bear in mind that I was not the only editor that identified his/her edits as vandalism. Check the history. User:Fieldday-sunday together with User:Epbr123 (an admin) took his contributions to be detrimental --Superflewis (talk) 16:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I daresay they looked at it rather quickly; they were both editing in a rather similar way to you. I don't mean to denigrate anti-vandalism activities - they're both tedious and necessary. But now that you've looked at the content involved, do you still think the original intent was vandalism? --AndrewHowse (talk) 16:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Missing fair-use rationale template
I have difficulties finding the template for missing fair-use rationale. I definitely remember that such a template existed, but for some reason it's not included in Category:Non-free use rationale templates. Everyme 00:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Everyme. I think what you are looking for is di-no fair use rationale. Cheers.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. I've requested a protedit to include the template in Category:Non-free use rationale templates. Everyme 08:31, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Al Lutz
Please review the article on Al Lutz. There is an on-going disagreement about whether certain information is more relevant to the article describing who Al Lutz is, or recaps of past articles Al Lutz has written. The information in question is in the "Disney Reports" section. Several recaps of the article have appeared, and then are removed due to a disagreement about the content's relevancy to the Wikipedia Entry.

205.215.210.10 (talk) 16:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism of semi-protected page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
The first sentsnce of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam has been vandalized by hacking. As a new user, I am unable to edit. The history reveals peristent vandalim by hacking. Mysticravenwing (talk) 03:37, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The vandalism was reverted a few hours before your post. Try to bypass your cache if you still see it. Autoconfirmed accounts can edit (and therefore also vandalize) semi-protected pages like Islam. Vandalism is not the same as hacking. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

blanking list articles; replacing with directs to categories

 * By the way, just to show the intentional misrepresentations posted here in order to get an edge on a content dispute, I've never "redirected" any page to a category. I've redirected to mainpages where I had moved the correctly sourcable peoples. Bulldog123 (talk) 21:20, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Bulldog123 is engaging in a reckless and disruptive pattern of editing which is being opposed by every other editor involved. Bulldog is blanking out list articles and replacing them with directs to similar categories and when he does not get his way, just threatens and acts to do additional damage. See List of Danish Americans, List of Americans with Finnish ancestry, List of Estonian Americans, List of Dutch Americans, List of Norwegian Americans. This is being done in total disregard of the established pattern for articles of this type and in disregard of the WP guidelines what differentiate betweeen list articles categories and accept both as valid and is being done based on his sole and single opinion of what is correct. Help before his activiites get further out of hand. Thanks. Hmains (talk) 03:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you provide "diffs" of these "threats of additional damage?" Or does User:Hmains admit this is an intentional exaggeration? Bulldog123 (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This editor (User:Bulldog123) had formerly proposed many dozens of such articles for deletion (s/he seems to have an antipathy for any article showing intersections of ethnic or national identity), and when those pages were voted on as "keep," s/he decided to simply be "bold" and delete huge areas of mostly sourced text without prior discussion, or to delete the articles entirely via (again undiscussed) redirects. In a recent edit, s/he stated that because the AFDs hadn't gone his/her way, s/he had been "forced" into such "unorthodox" deletion (see edit summary here). Whatever the case, it's highly disruptive, as all other editors have been asking is for prior discussion and consensus in the case of such huge deletions. Badagnani (talk) 04:07, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Note Badagnani's claim that "In a recent edit, s/he stated that because the AFDs hadn't gone his/her way, s/he had been "forced" into such "unorthodox" deletion (see edit summary here)" is an intentional misrepresentation of what was meant. If you take a look at the previous edit summaries and discussions you'll see that "I tried the ulterior method" refers to my attempt to initiate a discussion on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups, which was (likely purposelly) ignored by Badagnani. Bulldog123 (talk) 21:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * For examples of the articles blanked in the past 24 hours, see the warnings at User talk:Bulldog123. Badagnani (talk) 04:07, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I don't know what's going on, the guy just keeps blanking sourced text:       etc. and has not really engaged in a discussion to explain him/herself Talk:List_of_Estonian_Americans. Meanwhile I've just added more refs and sources in case any already referenced-sourced text has been removed by User:Bulldog123--Termer (talk) 05:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you could pick one of the lists as a test case, request comments, and try to reach consensus? That would be the AGF path, I think. Alternatively, a more aggressive approach would be to post at WP:ANI if you think Bulldog123 has blatantly contradicted the consensus at a corresponding AfD. --AndrewHowse (talk) 15:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually the irony of it is, that I'm implementing the consensus. :P Bulldog123 (talk) 21:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This would be a logical course of action if the blanking editor chose to use "Discussion" (s/he does not). We are pleading for some action on this extreme disruption; is none forthcoming from those in whom we have accorded such trust to preserve the judicious working process of our project? Badagnani (talk) 17:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Then you need to go to WP:ANI. The assistants here have no more power or influence than you do; we're not (generally) admins. ANI is the place to seek an admin's intervention. --AndrewHowse (talk) 17:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The consensus on WP:AFD a year ago was that these lists can stay (they were originally deleted and then overturned on AfD) if everyone who is not sourced properly or sourced at all be removed and/or fixed. This was not done for a year. Days beforehand I left a message on WIKIPROJECT:ETHNIC GROUPS requesting a discussion. I was ignored. Meanwhile, User:Badagnani and User:Hmains who have a grudge against me for nominating the lists in this first place have been harassing me on my talkpage User_talk:Bulldog123. I've explained to them on infinite edit summaries and discussion pages want needs to be done. Have made attempts to move ALL properly sourced material to mainpage, but have either been ignored, or tagged a WP:VANDAL. At the same time, Badagnani purposelly brings in users who don't know anything about the situation, such as User:Termer, to help in his revert wars:. Bulldog123 (talk) 21:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * well, I understand so much that Bulldog123 removals don't make any sense to me. By removing well sourced random names from several lists with unclear reasons, at the same time for example the List_of_Scottish_Americans has been untouched by Bulldog123 even though there barely are any sources provided. Why is there for example on the list of Scottish_Americans Tim McGraw, American singer (father is Scots-Irish, mother is Italian-Irish)?? at the same time - symphony conductor IMG Artists Estonian-born conductor Kristjan Järvi etc. like many other Estonian born Americans get removed from List of Estonian Americans??‎ Sorry but the logic behind Bulldog123 actions is indeed beyond my understanding.--Termer (talk) 22:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Since we're clearly not speaking to one another direct, User:Termer should realize List of Scottish Americans has not been revised as of yet. That simple. WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not an excuse to ignore verification issues. Also Kristjan Järvi was never removed intentionally - she may have been lost in the constant revert wars User:Termer and User:Badagnani are instigating. Bulldog123 (talk) 22:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The logic, or lack thereof, behind User:Bulldog123's edits is not the issue; it is the hyperaggressive manner of editing, specifically the lack of prior discussion and consensus before blanking sourced text (and sometimes entire articles). Lack of attention to such a problematic manner of editing poses a severe problem for our project. Badagnani (talk) 22:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thing is. Had you responded on the Wikiproject, which I know you edit at, we could have had the discussion ahead of time. You didn't, so I rightfully implemented WP:BOLD and was met with reverts of "vandalism" and harassment by you. I'm under the impression that your mode of POV-pushing is to simply ignore the concerns of others (as had been displayed obviously on the AfDs - where, it should be noted, you requested the closing admin should be banned for closing to the opposite of your liking), and then revert them with false claims of "vandalism." I had obviously, and clearly moved everyone of verifiable X-Americanness to the article mainspace, where the page was redirected to. This is not "blanking pages" - it is a merge. The hypocrisy of complaints of "hyperaggressiveness" coming from someone who throws false threats of blocking on my talkpage (how many times now? nine?), is pretty blatant. Bulldog123 (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

It should also be known that User:Badagnani had a year of which to revise the issues with List of X-Americans after he reviewed the deletion of several of the lists. There was plenty of time for others to fix the issues. Bulldog123 (talk) 23:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * To Bulldog123: What exactly any list should look like usually is determined by WP:Consensus. You have made your ideas clear so much at least I think that in your opinion only well sourced 100% ethnic X-people who happen to be American Citizens should be listed? As far as I can tell there is no such a consensus achieved on WP that any of these lists of X-Americans should be based on such a formula. If you'd like to change the way people get listed, you'd need to bring it up first at talk pages, reach a consensus instead of blanking out the lists on WP as you please.--Termer (talk) 07:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * My opinion isn't relevant. The sources you give (not all but most) only justify a Category:Americans of Estonian descent. That's the beauty of perfect verification; if we find a reliable source that calls X Estonian, it's likely that he is well-known for being so. If it doesn't, then its just "trivial". There is no consensus on how to source properly. This isn't a content dispute. For example, you can't source somebody on a list of Estonian Americans as "half Estonian" - that's not what the lists about. Bulldog123 (talk) 08:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Need assistance with page Brian Schweitzer
Hello,

Lot of shenanigans going on at Brian Schweitzer. Section "Controversy" is being removed and reverted every other edit, but I don't want to get involved because I cannot be impartial. Need help putting a temporary lock on page while it is sorted out.

Also note that one of the edits comes from a Montana government computer].

Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated. snachodog (talk) 21:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have posted 3RR warnings on the talk pages of the two editors who have most recently been adding and removing it. Further reverts without the necessary talk page discussion/consensus will merit blocks for all involved. Consensus needs to be established. Mfield (talk) 22:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much!snachodog (talk) 22:37, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This is beginning to get frustrating. Section was out right removed again by an anonymous user.  Any other steps I should be taking? snachodog (talk) 15:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The page has been semi-protected for a few days, meaning that anonymous editors can't edit it. --AndrewHowse (talk) 17:18, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

What is editorializing, and am I doing it?
This dispute is about information regarding Illinois Senate bill 0099. The bill is discussed on the following three pages: Senate bill 0099, Political Positions of Barack Obama, and Illinois Senate Career of Barack Obama.

The paragraph in question is listed at the bottom of this assistance request. I am new to the Wiki editing hobby and am not familiar with that term's use in this community. I desire to provide facts and references not currently displayed on the page, and welcome any suggestions which will make the paragraph acceptable for display.

I understand a great deal of political tension currently surrounds the subject bill of my paragraph, but the information I provide is not partisan.

Here is the paragraph in question:

Much of the outrage against Illinois Senate bill 0099 and counteroutrage in its defense revolves around explanations of the bill, even though it is short enough to warrant reading first-hand. Furthermore, a published "guideline for comprehensive sexuality education: kindergarten-12th grade" is available to explain the program. The guideline pamplet divides lesson plans up into six categories: human development, relationships, personal skills, sexual behavior, sexual health, and society and culture. There are also four recommended "age appropriate" levels of instruction. Level 1 is for ages 5-8, Level 2 is for ages 9-12, Level 3 is for ages 12-15, and Level 4 is for ages 15-18. Level 1 for sexual behavior consists of the following three development messages: "touching and rubbbing one's own genitals to feel good is called masturbation;" "some boys and girls masturbate and others do not;" "masturbation should be done in a private place." Level 1 for sexual health includes many developmmental messages designed to protect children from sexual abuse. For example, "no one should touch the private parts of a child's body except for health reasons or to clean them." The sexual health category also covers abortion for all age groups. The Level 1 abortion lesson has a single developmental message: "sometimes women become pregnant when they do not want to be or are unable to care for a child." Buddyg04 (talk) 18:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You seem to have broken the WP:3RR policy, not to mention the terms of article probation over the Barack Obama-related articles. Please "self-revert" your latest attempt to  edit war the content into the article.  If you do not do so immediately you may be blocked from further editing the encyclopedia.  (I will place a similar warning on the editor's talk page if it is not there already, then file a 3RR report) Wikidemon (talk) 18:53, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I see this has already been reverted by other editors. You may or may not squeek by this one without a block.  However, in the future do not edit war, particularly not on the Obama articles, however you feel about a subject.  You should definitely not revert again because this may result in an immediate block to prevent disruption to the article.  Wikidemon (talk) 18:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There are several fundamental principles of editing in Wikipedia that should be adhered to, especially in cases of controversial material and controversial people (politicians, almost by definition, are controversial). I highly recommend reading the following policies and editing guidelines before editing in any more articles about Barack Obama or any other political figure:
 * WP:RS - Sources should be high-quality and reliable. Time Magazine, for instance, is going to be a more reliable source than someone's opinion blog. By and large, opinion pieces are not reliable for anything but the opinions of their authors, and should not be cited for statements of fact.
 * WP:V - Sources should be verifiable. The information included in Wikipedia should be sourced to documents other people can read and verify.
 * WP:NPOV - Wikipedia should present a neutral point of view. That means we present the facts, but we do not editorialize on those facts. If I write, "John Smith says he is angry," that is a statement of fact: John Smith says this. If I write, "John Smith says he is angry, which is perfectly understandable given the circumstances," I am introducing my own bias into the article, and presenting my opinion as fact.
 * WP:NOT - There are several things Wikipedia is not, including a soapbox for espousing one's beliefs.
 * I highly recommend reading all of those in their entirety, and gain a firm understanding of them before diving back onto the field. -- Good Damon 19:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

PHPulse
I have an editor that I have reported in the past for deletions who continually follows me around delting my entrys. He is doing it again but not instantly deleting my entrys but 'marking' them for deletion. I am following the guidelines but am new and trying my best to comply. I need a little guidance not bullying. And this editor is nothing but a bully.

His name is Sgroupace and he currently has my page PHPulse marked for deletion. He has just instantly deleted it several times. I am the maintainer of the open source project which has been around since 2001. I tried my best to comply with your guidelines and just stick to facts for the entry and not 'indulge' s that it would not get marked as spam.

But no matter what I do, he seems absolutely determined to delete it. Please help! I have no idea what to do about him and am totally new! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phpulse (talk • contribs) 20:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, Thanks for posting here. There are a couple of basic criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia; notability and verifiability. The burden of proof is on the person creating/editing the page, which in this case is you. You'll need to find some reliable sources that indicate why the subject is notable. Feel free to post here or at my talk page if you have questions. --AndrewHowse (talk) 20:15, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The actions of User:Sgroupace seems to be 100% consistent with policy, in my view. The new editor User:PHPulse re-created the article about PHPulse after an admin had already deleted it as WP:CSD (spam). The recreated article is now up up for AfD. The 'totally new' editor PHPulse filed a complaint against Sgroupace at the 3RR noticeboard. His complaint was declined. Though he was advised at the 3RR noticeboard that his article would not survive without reliable sources, he has so far not added any. PHPulse should take a look at WP:FORUMSHOP, with regard to repeatedly raising the same complaint at multiple noticeboards. It might be simpler to just go and find some sources for his article. EdJohnston (talk) 20:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Article on Pierre Laval
The article on Pierre Laval will not allow photographs to be added. I have ten Photographs of Laval that were given to me when I was at the University of London in 1950. I would be glad to place several in this article. Also in my Library I have (I can give you the exact Titles) 10 or 12 books on Laval (in English and French). I am going to suggest some severe editing to the article with detailed references (citations). As the article now stands it is (how can I say this) not very Scholarly. Please let me know how I can post the photos. (email removed) Sirswindon (talk) 20:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC)SirSwindon


 * I think WP:IUP and WP:IMAGE would be good places to start. They'll explain how to upload images as well as the usage policies. --AndrewHowse (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Who says the article will not allow photographs? (The "No free image" statement on the page is not a statement that images are not allowed, but that no free image has yet been provided.) If you are unsure how to include photographs in pages, see Images. But keep in mind that we generally only allow photographs that are freely published or that can be passed under the Non-free content criteria. You say the photos were given to you, but by whom? The copyright on a photograph typically rests with whoever took the photo (or whoever payed for it to be taken). Being handed a photograph doesn't necessarily give one ownership of the copyright, unless this was explicit. Regardless, you are a Wikipedia editor, which means you have the ability to personally edit articles on Wikipedia. While it may still be courteous to state on the talk page in advance any extreme changes you intend you make, you are free to do them yourself. (Also, please don't include your email address in your posts! This board does not respond to posts via email, and placing it publicly may result in more spammers getting a hold of your email address.) Someguy1221 (talk) 21:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

How do I find articles that need people to contribute to them
I have pretty good general knowledge and I would like to find some articles that need some help. Do you know how I can do that? Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 01:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC) Thank you


 * Oy. That's a big question. Perhaps you might find something interesting at Community portal? If you're new, then it's usually easier to edit existing articles for a while, before you move on to starting new ones. Take a look at WP:5P too for some of the things the community holds to be important. And come back here if you have questions. Thanks for helping out! --AndrewHowse (talk) 01:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I think I am starting to get the hang of this now.Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 02:03, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (e/c) There are many ways. Here's the thing though: general knowledge is, of course, a great asset, but it is fundamental to know that all our information should be the result of research followed by citation to reliable sources. You may already know this, but it could be taken from the way you posed your question that you plan on just adding material out of your own knowledge fund. That is not to say that this can't be done, but it's not really the heart of what needs doing. Please, if you haven't already, read our core content policies, which should inform your writing. They are: Verifiability, neutral point of view and no original research. Having said that, a great place to look is the Community portal; a large section there is devoted to all manner of things that we need help doing. For example there are links there to requests for expansion; requested articles, general article cleanup, articles needing copyediting. There's also many articles that can be found in categories requesting help. For example, there's  articles needing style editing; articles with unsourced statements. There's also projects you can join devoted to certain tasks, such as unreferenced articles the WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors and others. I hope this helps.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Bachelor of Science
I am trying to answer the request on the article about Bachelor of Science with more details as well as more references. However my contributions are deleted. There are no errors pointed out. It is only said I discredit Norwegian edustion as the reason for deleting my contribution, though I think I am accurate in my writing. Can you please make sure the wikipedia can have some information about norwegian B.Sc and M.Sc. --Oivimoen (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi. Thank you for posting here. Well, most of the information you inserted at Bachelor of Science (in English, at least) is unreferenced. The websites provided don't provide any information on Norwegian degrees themselves. Further, the table provided is totally unintelligible; it's unclear what (if anything) that data is meant to show. I would go back and try to find actual reliable sources about Bachelors degrees in Norway before attempting to re-add information. Also, be careful if you're pulling this information off another website or Norwegian Wikipedia, as some of the information presented is still in Norwegian, which is not helpful on English Wikipedia. Best, epicAdam(talk) 20:31, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

As it is said the table addes up hours of education what is the difficulty whit this??? Is this not a allowed in wikipedia? What references do you miss? --Oivimoen (talk) 20:55, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In fact, it is not allowed on Wikipedia. You are trying to combine sources (or rather, examples) in order to reach a broad conclusion. This amounts to original research, which is not permitted on Wikipedia. You need to find a source that explicitly details the differences between British and Norwegian B.Sc. degrees to reference the material you are trying to add. Best, epicAdam(talk) 21:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Allegation of slander
Please see discusion pages about Bachelor of Science under Norway. User V85 is slanderous in his writing about me. Please stop this. The article about Bachelor of Science askes for International differences - I bring this to the article. It is also asked for more citations I bring this to the article. What is wrong???? Does Wikipedia not allow cited information to be written up on their pages?

See copy of dicussion page on Bachelor of Science.

This section, by Oivimoen has been discussed thoroughly on the Norwegian Wikipedia, and has been deemed to be pushing of a certain point of view by a single individual, which led to the article no:Bachelor of Science being locked, and the aforementioned user being blocked from editing the Norwegian Wikipedia for a week. A thorough thinking-through should be done as to whether this information truely belongs in this article, as it really is one man's attempt to discredit Norwegian education and exhalt his own, UK Bachelor of science degree.

I will be happy to answer any questions about this, please do not hesitate to ask me. Alternatively, one might ask User:Røes, who is an admin on the Norwegian Wikipedia, and was involved in this process. V85 (talk) 17:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

--Oivimoen (talk) 21:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That's not slander. It's a little rude, perhaps. If you have a reliable source for a comparison, then please cite it. It's not enough to cite the components and then draw your own comparisons, as Adam has said both here and at the talk page. --AndrewHowse (talk) 00:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Further comments
Re-grouped. --AndrewHowse (talk) 16:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

== Bachelor of Science ==

Hello I try to add requested missing information to the Bachelor of Science article with a number of citations. My additions about international differences, Norway are removed by epicadam and V8 They apply one seet of rules to me and my contribution, while they apply a oompletely different set of rules to others and the rest of the article.

If I now require the rest of the article to abide with the rules that epicadam require from me the whole article should be removed, I feel this is wrong.

Or is it so that Wikipedia apply one set of rules for some and different sets of rules for others. --Oivimoen (talk) 16:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Issue dealt with on talk page. Essentially, per WP:V, material that was added by this user was challenged, which therefore requires sourcing. -epicAdam(talk) 16:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ovimoen, you gave sources for the data, but not for the conclusions that you drew. It's a subtle point, but you need to source the conclusions too. If there's no source, then perhaps you could contribute the data and let readers draw their own conclusions. --AndrewHowse (talk) 16:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

dispute in Routemaster article
There is a dispute in the Routemaster bus article about weather an image of a different bus is consistent with Wikipedia role as an encyclopedia (see talk page) what should be done about the matter? Oxyman42 (talk) 22:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing the answer will revolve around your answer to this question . MickMacNee (talk) 23:03, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This user seems obsessive he follows me around and is appearing here! or am I to assume this is mere coincidence? anyways it appears the user is being hypocritical here and ignoring the rules himself, whilst waisting no time trying to throw the book at me. I am at least trying to do something about the issue Oxyman42 (talk) 23:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This has essentially exploded very quickly. I think something is going on here that is about more than about that photo, and it's time to take this to AN/I. MickMacNee, stop reverting, I think you are being lured into a 3RR trap.--Abd (talk) 02:15, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Update:Oxyman42 blocked for 48 hours. New IP editor appeared, abusively backing up Oxyman42 position (not same IP as before which was admitted to be Oxyman42), may be trolling for reverts. Assistance would be appreciated. Content issue appears almost trivial. --Abd (talk) 17:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Editorial strong-arming
An "editor" has threatened am NPOV block dealing with the Daily Kos. The article originally described kos as "progressive". Does this mean all other points of view are somehow regressive? Further, kos is not just "liberal" on the spectrum any more than David Duke is just a conservative on the same spectrum. The adjective "ultra" or "extreme" or "leftist" is thus an appropriate descriptor to assist readers in getting a peg on kos' position. The "editor" (Realist2 [sic!]) describes himself as very liberal and in bigoted terms in his profile. He appears to be trying to blunt the intent of kos by the bland use of "liberal". This is an insertion of his political bias and abuse by an "editor".

Please address. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. America (talk • contribs) 23:32, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for posting here. If I read the history correctly, you seem to be seeking to add some adjectives, e.g. leftist, to the statement that Daily Kos is a political blog. Another editor or two seem to be opposed. If that's correct, then this is a content dispute and the burden of proof falls on you, in this case, to cite reliable sources in support of your contention. You might think it obvious; nonetheless you need to cite a source, please. --AndrewHowse (talk) 00:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * btw we're all editors. You, me, Realist2, all of us. --AndrewHowse (talk) 00:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Um, no. I respectfully demur. A source would be needed for someone to hold that kos is "progressive". Marxism is so out-of-date regressive the contemporary burden is squarely on the left. But, since Wiki already has a reputation for tilting that direction, reliable information must be had from elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. America (talk • contribs) 01:54, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's unsuitable to add such a strong opinion of Kos to the lead and treat it as stone cold fact. However setting up a section on the article that goes indepth into the various opinions of Kos's political direction would be fine. Reporting the opinion of one publication and adding it to the lead as fact is not appropriate. Saying liberal is fine, with an expansion in the relevant section. Incidentally, your the one that insists on having "America" in your user name and labeling wikipedia as liberally biased. I'm falling asleep already, that's boring news now. I imagine you would insert an image of the US flag into your signature if it was allowed? Incidentally, wikipedia doesn't tilt left, we just don't brainwash our readers with US talking points. If you want a US only encyclopedia visit Conservapedia instead. Good day. — Realist  2  15:07, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I am trying to find someone who will (or can) create a wikipedia page.
I would like to contact an editor or someone who knows the rules and guidelines on how to properly create a wikipedia page. I am happy to pay for this, if needed, because, I have tried numerous times and each time pages i create are deleted or removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mediaclip (talk • contribs) 11:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Have you reviewed the deletion log yet? This tells you why the article would have been deleted. Perhaps it wasn't in line with the policies and guidelines for inclusion? Jasynnash2 (talk) 12:17, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes I did but i couldn't understand it. Please tell me are there people who can start an article ? Who know the rules and who know how to construct a wikipedia article in the correct format ?87.207.217.240 (talk) 17:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You have appeared to have requested the following articles already as IP 87.207.217.240 Whynotad, Search Me Live and World's Best Brands at Requested articles/Business and Economics/Businesses and Organizations and mediaclip has requested Gossip Craze at Requested articles/Culture and fine arts so I suspect there is not much more you can do. They probably have not been created by anybody because they are probably websites that are not notable enough for inclusion. MilborneOne (talk) 17:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Part of "knowing the rules" here is knowing what's going to meet the criteria for inclusion. While the 'pedia is pretty big, there are many potential subjects that don't (yet) merit a page. That's not about format, it's usually about notability and verifiability. --AndrewHowse (talk) 18:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Still, very, unclear, as with other comments we have read, and i guess there is not one person who can do or state exactly what is needed to produce a "GOOD" wiki page (in plain English),....but thanks for the time to reply.87.207.217.240 (talk) 20:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The relevant page is WP:N, but particularly from there is the guideline, "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be a suitable article topic". The coverage this speaks of is frequently, but not limited to, things like newspapers and magazines, research and books. I hope this helps! &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 04:01, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Eggcrate display
The article "Eggcrate displays" describes what an eggcrate display is and the technology behind their use. Prior to yesterday there was a very large list of "eggcrate appearances" on television shows. This list contained mostly game show fancruft minutiae, which, outside of the picture that is listed in the article, provided no other unique information about what an eggcrate display actually is.

I deleted the list, however another editor has replaced it today. I'm sure this would turn into a back-and-forth edit war without the assistance of an editor. Can you please weigh in on this topic and the necessity of the list of appearances? Sottolacqua (talk) 14:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've proposed as much on the talk page. Debate can take place there. If none occurs in a few days, then I'll zap it. btw we're all editors, in Wiki jargon; there's not much hierarchy. Compelling arguments, based in policy and consensus, usually win. --AndrewHowse (talk) 14:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I zapped it. 3 out of 4 people involved means consensus to me. Though if other people want to way in and change said consensus they can at the talk page. Jasynnash2 (talk) 14:41, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Appropriate use of the CURRENT* date macros
Resolved. I was wondering if there are any guidelines for appropriate use of the macros which expand to the current date: CURRENTYEAR, CURRENTMONTHNAME, CURRENTDAY, etc. I saw that they were being used in List of 'Til Death episodes to reference a piece of data which is manually entered: "as of XXXX date, NN episodes have aired". This doesn't seem like a good use for these macros, because the episode count has to be updated manually. I've attempted to change it to a manual date, but my edits keep being reverted, and no one has responded to my comments on the talk page. -Mrwhizzard 05:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The current date macros are not appropriate for the article as you have said. Leave a message on each talk page of the users who have reverted you and ask them to comment on the article talk page where you have already stated your position. If nobody objects after a reasonable time then you can apply WP:SILENCE and make the change. MilborneOne (talk) 12:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have made comments on the article talk page, as well as on the two user talk pages (24.47.198.164 and Hellevision123), but my edit continues to be reverted with no discussion. I'm not sure what else I can or should do at this point. -Mrwhizzard 03:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have removed the auto-dating and left a message on the IP users talk page that they should discuss it on the article talk page. User Hellevision123 has not been active this week. MilborneOne (talk) 11:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

William Woodruff
Dear Editor I am the widow of William Woodruff. I notice with dismay that someone is trying to discredit my husband's work as a world historian and has deleted references to his world history books (and has called him a "British historian" instead of "an eminent world historian"). Please help me to re-edit this article, and stop any malicious re-editing.

The correct version of his biography should still be based on the version edited

" 10:46, 24 September 2008 Autarch (Talk | contribs) (4,948 bytes) (Recent death) (undo)"

Under references I would like to list the obituaries:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article4820057.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/3075171/William-Woodruff.html

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080922/NEWS/809230238

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080924/OPINION01/809240190

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080923/NEWS/809240300

Under External links I would like to list his website

http://www.williamwoodruff.com

Kind regards,

Helga Woodruff —Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodruff (talk • contribs) 14:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello. Thanks for coming here for help.  Is this edit the change you have found a problem with?  I think the main thing you should note about that edit was that "eminent" isn't a neutral word that is necessary on a biographical article.  I've changed "a British historian" to "a historian" seeing as "world" and "eminent" take a non-neutral point-of-view.  If you'd like to use obituaries as references, I don't see any problem with that at this time if it's used to verify content of the article.  ~a (user • talk • contribs) 15:20, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I support the change in wording seen in that edit. Neutral point of view and professional tone are crucial to the integrity of Wikipedia. While I respect your late husband and his work, there's no need to use peacock terms (such as "eminent") in the article's lead section. And honestly, I wouldn't worry about it! It looks like there's a lot of good source material to work with in building a very good article on him. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 01:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

IndustryPlayer deletion on 6/6/2008
I am looking for some guidance on procedure A page was deleted in June 2008 and attributed to MZMcBride (6/6/2008 at 18:32 - see below for more detail). I received an immediate response from MZMcBride who told that Mallanox deleted the page. I wrote in their talk section and can't get an immediate response which I am keen to get so i can resolve the issue, and resubmit the page. Mallanox is not replying (may be on vacation or whatever) What can I do to get this solved quickly ?

Thanks for your help Sunshinebr

My posts were : TO MZMcBride: [edit] IndustryPlayer deletion on 6/6/2008 IndustryPlayer deletion on 6/6/2008 Hi - can you assist please - you are recorded as deleting the IndustryPlayer page on 6/6/2008 at 18:32 with a code csd r1. Apparently this means "Redirect to non-existent page#". Could you explain what the problem was - this page was a valid page for some time and we don't understand why you took it down. I am willing to rewrite or edit the page if need be to make it good again - I undesratynd the copy still exists somewhere in your system Sunshinebr (talk) 11:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

IndustryPlayer was deleted by Mallanox (talk · contribs). It was deleted under the Proposed deletion guidelines. If you have further questions, Mallanox should be able to help you out. Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IndustryPlayer deletion on 6/6/2008 Thanks for your help here - I have left a note on Mallanox page but response time is not as fast as yours was! Is there any other way I can get to this information or get a review and re-posting of the article ? I would like to re-write this article correctly at the earliest oppportunity, but without any response from Mallanox I am stuck for now. Sorry to impose on your page Sunshinebr (talk) 06:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

TO MALLANOX: [edit] IndustryPlayer deletion on 6/6/2008 Hello Mallanox I saw that our Industryplayer page was delted and wrote to MZMcBride about it as he/she was listed as the deleter. My post and reply were as follows : Hi - can you assist please - you are recorded as deleting the IndustryPlayer page on 6/6/2008 at 18:32 with a code csd r1. Apparently this means "Redirect to non-existent page#". Could you explain what the problem was - this page was a valid page for some time and we don't understand why you took it down. I am willing to rewrite or edit the page if need be to make it good again - I understand the copy still exists somewhere in your system Sunshinebr (talk) 11:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

IndustryPlayer was deleted by Mallanox (talk · contribs). It was deleted under the Proposed deletion guidelines. If you have further questions, Mallanox should be able to help you out. Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC) "

Can you help me please - what was the basis for deletion, what can I do about getting it back.

Many thanks Sunshinebr (talk) 07:24, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IndustryPlayer deletion on 6/6/2008 Mallanox I would appreciate some comment on this - I would like to tresolve the old issue or start again. Thank you for your assistance Sunshinebr (talk) 06:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Sunshinebr (talk) 12:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * See this response. MZMcBride has restored the article at User:Sunshinebr/IndustryPlayer so that Sunshinebr can work on it further. EdJohnston (talk) 01:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help EdJohnston - I have now seen the article is in place and will try to resolve all issues Sunshinebr (talk) 07:12, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Stock market index
There's are really interesting piece of vandalism at the top of the Stock market index article that reads "The Wikipedia Community would like to wish Avril Lavigne a happy birthday!".... and I don't really know how to remove it. I figured I'd mention it, and let someone smarter than me figure it out.--Sparkygravity (talk) 05:37, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi. Thanks for posting here. It's just template vandalism. It happens every so often when a user makes an authorized edit to a template that is being used on the page. Since templates are used on a wide number of pages, the vandalism is typically removed fairly quickly, but thanks for letting us know here. Best, epicAdam(talk) 17:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

George Friedman
Resolved.

I cleaned up the links that were accused of being a "Conflict of Interest", yet the banner is still not down. How do I fix this? Can you remove it? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Briantx90 (talk • contribs) 15:40, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It would appear that you've removed it yourself. I take it this is no longer a problem. :-) &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 00:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Corrrect Date of Birth For Frank Mundus is October 21, 1925
I corrected Frank Mundus' date of birth in his Wikipedia listing to October 21, 1925, because it was incorrectly listed as December 23, 1925. The East Hampton Star newspaper had originally reported this wrong date of birth (December 23) in their obituary of Frank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.16.33.255 (talk) 05:55, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The Dec. 23 date was referenced in the East Hampton Star. However the anonymous user has gone to a great deal of trouble by posting here.  I am inclined to let it ride but will put a note on it.Americasroof (talk) 11:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Multiple independent sources also list October 21, 1925 as his birthday, not December 23, 1925: including The New York Times and The Guardian. Both references have been added. --Jh12 (talk) 17:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Sally Thomsett
Are you shure that she (born 1950) had married, as her third husband, Paul Agnew the operatic singer (born 1964)? I suppose that it is a matter of homonymy. She may have married Paul Agnew the "landscape gardener" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.103.75.172 (talk) 09:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for catching this. I have de-linked Paul Agnew (she indeed married the landscape gardener), added a reference from the Daily Mail, and a Refimprove tag --Jh12 (talk) 16:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

CADO Systems and CADO Systems Technical Information
Stale. Could some people that aren't User:clintp or myself have a look at these two articles. I'm not "intimate" enough about computers to know how to fix the problems with the articles or even to judge whether or not the belong here in the first place. Thanks. Jasynnash2 (talk) 15:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Removed Links to Wilbourhall.org
Stale. To Whom it May Concern: I run a not for profit website devoted to the memory of the History of Mathematics department at Brown University. The department closed its doors in 2005, after the death of its chairman, and my PhD advisor, Dr. David Pingree (see the Wikipedia article about him). For the past year or so, I have run and maintained www.wilbourhall.org to provide free PDF files of important works on mathematics and mathematical astronomy. Most of the PDF files are versions of scans from Google books that I myself have "repaired" by replacing missing pages from the original Google scans with scan of texts from various libraries. I have also made available public domain books from my own collection, including a copy of the Almagest used by Dr. Pingree himself. I have provided links to this site to several Wikipedia pages, with the only intention of distributing free PDFS. I recently found a copy of the Arabic version of al-Khwarizmi's Algebra in the original Arabic, posted it to wilbourhall.org, and then put a link from the article on al-Khwarizmi to wilbourhall.org. The link was removed almost immediately by a particular user, who stated that wilbourhall.org was a "commercial webpage promoting a particular product". It is no such thing. It does not seem to bother this person that there is a link on the al-Khwarizmi page to Britannica.com, which is most assuredly a "webpage promoting a particular product". This same user then apparently tried to remove as many of the links to my site on Wikipedia as he/she could, including a link from the page of David Pingree - my late friend and PhD advisor - in whose memory I created and continue to work on wilbourhall.org. In the course of the past year, wilbourhall.org has distributed thousands upon thousands off free mathematical texts in Sanskrit, Arabic, Greek and Latin around the world. Please ask this user to stop harrasing me. I was particularly upset at his/her cruel removal of the link from the page on David Pingree. I am only trying to disseminate knowledge and keep something of the spirit of MacArthur "Genius" Grant winner David Pingree alive.

Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillLoney (talk • contribs) 19:31, 18 September 2008
 * Hello and thank you for coming here for help. Although you're free to edit articles on any subject you desire, we ask that you take special care when editing articles on subjects that you have a close personal tie to.  This is especially true when adding links to your own personal website.  If links to wilbourhall.org belong, please let other editors add them instead of you adding them yourself.  You are more than welcome to, however, to make link suggestions and start discussions on the talk pages of the articles to which you're referring.  Let me know what you think.  ~a (user • talk • contribs) 19:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I will remove all links to my website from Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillLoney (talk • contribs) 20:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not necessary especially if you're referring to other editors' additions. If you're removing links to your website other people added, make sure you're only removing links that don't belong.  ~a (user • talk • contribs) 20:45, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

KhoiKhoi has already informed me - in no uncertain terms - that links to my website do not belong on Wikipedia. Period. I take his words to mean that links to my website "don't belong". Am I missing something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillLoney (talk • contribs) 02:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand this either. The wilbourhall.org site is - or was - a wonderful resource, obviously non-commercial, that should be listed in all relevant articles. Either way please re-open your site, it's given me for one great reading and pleasure! Dickdock (talk) 06:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

OK. I can finally thank God I went to law school (University of Virgina, class of '06). No offense, Mr. Administrator, but I haven't had this much trouble understanding a concept since my first encounter with the Rule Against Perpetuites ("No interest in land may vest, if at all, unless within 21 years of a life in being at the time of the conveyance - but this rule shall apply only to contingent remainders, executory interests and vested interests subject to open"). From what I can gather, a "personal" page (as you and KhoiKoi describe it) is an offense consisting of the act of an "owner/maintainer" of a website putting a link to that website which he/she owns/maintains from a relevant (or irrelevant) Wikipedia article. Hence Khoikhoi removed my links. Correct? This raises several issues. (Now watch as three years of legal training come into play!) 1) How in nomine Dei did KhoiKhoi know that user Jgtl2 was the onwer/maintainer of wilbourhall.org? If s/he is, in fact, omniscient, perhaps s/he could send me next weeks Powerball numbers :) 2) You yourself, kindly sir, stated If you're removing links to your website other people added, make sure you're only removing links that don't belong.  You seem to be saying that, under the "personal website rule", links to willbourhall.org are OK.....as long as I don't put them there.....and if some other than me puts a link to wilbourhall.org, I am not to touch it....unless......it doesn't belong. ????? So help me figure this one out: KhoiKhoi the Omniscient - once he sensed that there must be some connection between user Jgtl2 and wilbourhall.org - removed the link from the "al-Farabi" article (and about 6 others) to wilbourhall.org. Along came another user who viewed KhoiKhoi's changes and decided that the link from al-Farabi to wilbourhall.org was useful (please see the changelog, or whatever you call it, to the "al-Farabi" page). Now, according to what you just told me, Mr. Administrator, am I to conclude that a) this new link to wilbourhall.org is not only OK (because someone other than me made it) but b) untouchable by me (unless I determine that it "doesn't belong") yet c) removeable by KhoiKoi at his whim?

My deepest pardons, kindly sir, but you have also yet to address the "no links to commercial websites" rule. KhoiKhoi apparently found the fact that the presence on my site of Google ads and some links to Amazon rendered it a "commercial" website. OK. But I wasn't selling anything. Nothing. I was giving away free PDFs that I had spent hundred of hours compiling. From what I remember of the logs 17,000 Wikipedia users downloaded my repaired Google version of Euclid, 14,000 my version of Panini, 7,000 my version of the Almagest (which I had made from photocopies of my advisor's copy, requiescat in pacem), 10,000 my version (which I spent days compiling) of the Brahma-sphuta-siddhanta etc. etc. etc. The total amount of money I earned from those click through ads was two cents. Literally. Yet on several pages under the benificent dominion of KhoiKhoi, links to Britannica.com (links which greet the user with - this is a free trial) were left untouched by him! O, that I had his infinite wisdom so that I could fathom the reason for this!

Seriously. Does the presence of Google ads make a page a "commercial website" and thus subject to removal by KhoiKhoi and his minions? If so, I will gladly remove them.

Before I forget, the al-Khwarizmi page that KhoiKhoi defended from the maleficent presence of a link to wilbourhall.org made no mention of the influence on Khwarizmi's Algebra of the Hindu mathematicians Brahmagupta and Baskaracharya. My webpage did. I'm just saying. I'm not implying anything. Really. Oh, wait. Then again, User:Khoikhoi only removed the links to wilbourhall.org from the al-Khwarizmi, al-Farabi and al-Biruni pages and left the links from Ptolemy, Euclid, Apollonius, Arybhata, Panini, Brahmagupta etc. intact. I really, really can't see a pattern in what pages he removed the links from. Seriously. I'm not kidding. What kind of pattern could there be? In all seriousness, I realize that I have no intrinsic right to post anything to or make any changes to anything on a Wikipedia page. I would just like precise clarification of what is allowable and what is not, of what KhoiKhoi saw as offensive so I can rectify it. Given Wikipedia's recent use of the legal team of the EFF (as well as other pro bono lawyers, I am sure) I am very, very concerned about action by Wikipedia against me. Hence I have decided to close wilbourhall.org until the matter is resolved completely. Thank you for your time and I patiently await your response. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillLoney (talk • contribs) 15:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the "no links to commercial websites" is a red herring here. The conflict of interest policy does appear to be relevant. Since editors here don't usually know what motivates an editor to add links to their own website, that action is discouraged in order to avoid the risk of a conflict of interest. Other, independent, editors are quite free to add the same links, if they see fit. The owner of a site is free to suggest the links on the talk page, where s/he would also be encouraged to mention their relationship with the site in question.
 * I think User:Khoikhoi might have been a little over-zealous in removing those links; independent editors are free to reinsert them, or suggest the same on the relevant talk pages. Only Khoikhoi can speak to her/his motivation in making those changes, or where s/he inferred a connection between a username and a site owner; it seems speculative at best for the rest of us to try to guess at those answers. I'm sorry that you've had a negative experience; I hope you'll stick around for some more positive experiences. Cheers, --AndrewHowse (talk) 15:38, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Wait, wait, wait. Hold the phone. If I understand the meat of the lengthy comment above, you closed your site for fear of legal action against you ... by Wikipedia. Holy overreactions, Batman! Look, there's no way that Wikipedia would be taking any action against another website just because it may not fit the external links guidelines, so go ahead and put it back up. (And if you want some confirmation, is the legal counsel, his contact info is on his page, drop him an e-mail. I think he'll assure you that nobody's going to sic the EFF on you.)  As for inclusion, AndrewHowse is right, here - the best route to go is to discuss things on the talk pages of the individual articles and determine whether the link is appropriate for inclusion. The problem here is that we have issues all the time where someone decides that their personally developed page is *the* source for great information about x - most of the time it's a fan page of some sort. Discussion of the links involved on the articles that they would be added to is a good way to ensure that you're not infringing any guidelines. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh my, that was a long response! Let me start by reminding you that I'm not an administrator.  I'm just here giving advice that I pray is helpful.  "if some other than me puts a link to wilbourhall.org, I am not to touch it....unless......it doesn't belong."  You are not forbidden to touch these links.  Just don't be surprised if someone re-adds them, or someone removes your additions.  The policy is the explanation you're looking for.  "a) this new link to wilbourhall.org is not only OK (because someone other than me made it) but b) untouchable by me (unless I determine that it 'doesn't belong') yet c) removeable by KhoiKoi at his whim?"  Everything except "c" is true.  KhoiKoi can only remove them if they "don't belong".  Deciding if they belong or don't belong is usually something decided by consensus on the talk page of the article in question.  Always go to the talk page (or the user talk page of the user in question) when a disagreement starts.  "Google ads and some links to Amazon rendered it a 'commercial' website".  That's something probably discussed in the policy I've linked above.  Again, these kinds of judgment calls are often discussed (with links to policy) on the talk page.  Let me know if this hasn't adequately answered the questions in your very long message.  I also must add that I'm very surprised you closed your site.  What's up with that?  God I hope it wasn't my fault.    ~a (user • talk • contribs) 16:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

'' I also must add that I'm very surprised you closed your site. What's up with that? God I hope it wasn't my fault.'' Not your fault at all. As I said earlier, I went to law school. Three years of reading case after case after case of lawsuits concerning overripe bananas, mudflaps on trucks in and out of Illinois, the presence of ghosts in houses, and yes, lawsuits over hyperlinks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.195.75.223 (talk) 17:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I still don't follow your logic. Who said anything about Wikipedia suing anybody?  Why would you think that Wikipedia would sue anybody even if they could?  Who would even be doing the suing?  Wikipedia always strongly avoids even the threat of lawsuits: WP:THREAT.    ~a (user • talk • contribs) 17:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me explain why I removed the links. Firstly, I don't have anything against your website and I insist that you restore it. I had no intentions of threatening you either, I was just trying to explain to you Wikipedia's policy on external links, and that users are discouraged to mass-link to their own websites (see User talk:Jgtl2). Now let me explain why this is discouraged. Wikipedia does not develop when we simply add the same external link to 10 articles. Instead, editors are encouraged to help Wikipedia grow by adding the text from your website to these articles, or even Wikisource or Wikiquote. I'd like to reiterate that I have nothing against your website at all. Please consider adding these invaluable translations to Wikisource or Wikipedia itself, my main concern is that we don't want Wikipedia to turn into a "link farm". I'm not saying your links were advertising or commercial links, they are by contrast very educational. My problem is that simply adding the links to all these articles would make others with similar websites to want to add their links, and this is what we're trying to avoid. I hope you understand that I am not opposed to your website, I'm just opposed to the way you went about trying to spread this information. Khoikhoi 22:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

What's left of wilbourhall.org can be found at web.archive.org. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillLoney (talk • contribs) 23:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Bill, I never threatened to sue you and neither did anyone else here. Please re-open your website, no one will take any legal action even if you restore the external links. This has nothing to do with any legal matter, I was talking about Wikipedia policies. On Wikipedia, if someone re-adds the links, they would typically get warned or blocked, but I will not block you because I want to discuss this with you. There is no rule on Wikipedia that says "if you violate our policy on external links, you get sued". So please restore your website. There is absolutely no possibility of a suit against you, I hope I am being absolutely clear.


 * Now regarding what you call the "PersonalWebLinker" and "CommercialWebContent" rules. Even though you are associated with this website (you are apparently the founder), I am sure that it's notable and very helpful. In fact, I have just received an email from several people saying that they want the website back up because they find it to be particularly useful. My sole problem was the fact that you went around adding links to your website in these external links sections, but you didn't contribute to the actual Wikipedia articles themselves. This encourages people to go to your own website and educate themselves on the subject, but it does not encourage people to read the actual Wikipedia articles.


 * Wikipedia is indeed a free encyclopedia, but when we only add a link to the same website on 20+ articles, regardless of how useful this website is, it may not be as helpful as you think.


 * As for whether your summary of these two rules are accurate, you are partially correct. I honestly wouldn't have minded if you added the links to only a couple articles, but your contributions show that the website was added to many more articles than that, which is why people would think that you were "spamming", which I know you had no intentions of doing. When you have the time, please read WP:EL and #2 of this section.


 * As to whether I am subject to the same rules, the answer is yes. If I had a personal website that included rare translations, I would be adding the translations to Wikisource instead of adding a bunch of links to my own website in the "External links" section of these articles.


 * As for your last question I will leave this up for someone else to answer. I believe that I acted in accordance to our policies and guidelines, and apologize if I cam across as aggressive or rude. I'd to reiterate my main point that your website has some invaluable information, and I'd love to see it in some of our project pages (such as Wikisource as I've already mentioned). Just not as an external link. Or if it is to be an external link, please limit the number of articles you add it to. Khoikhoi 23:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

KhoiKhoi,

Thank you for your explanation. And thank you for your assurances that I am not, at least at this time, facing the threat of a lawsuit. (Actually, I believe would have to have such an assurance in writing (etc. and so on) from someone with so-called 'actual speaking authority' for Wikipedia/Wikimedia for such an assurance to be legally enforceable, but this will do for the moment.) I do not add anything to the Wikipedia articles because my mission, as it were, is to let the Islamic, Hindu, Greek an Latin mathematicians and philosophers 'speak for themselves'. I do this, as I said earlier, by "repairing" scans of public domain texts from Google, the Digital Library of India and elsewhere by various means, including making trips to libraries in New York City and Washington DC, by corresponding with other scholars around the word looking for missing pages and texts and so on. I thought it might be beneficial if someone looking at the Wikipedia page for, say, al-Khazini, might be able to get a hold of a free copy of his Zij-as Sanjari - his major work - after reading about it on Wikipedia. (The only copies in existence are in libraries in Tehran and Istanbul. I made a typed transcript of about a third of this work and put it on wilbourhall.org, and then made a link from the al-Khazini page to wilbourhall.org. Silly me!). I did similar things for Ptolemy's Almagest, the Mahabhashya of Panini (I recieved many thank-you emails from Wikipedia users in India and elsewhere for making this available!)...and the same with dozens of other texts. While certainly not expecting any medals for this, I was certainly not expecting to be so publically humiliated by having my name (yes, my name!) and link to my website removed from the Wikipedia entry for my late friend, Dr. David Pingree.

I will consider the matter closed and resolved and will not pursue it any further ( anywhere!) if you let me restore the links.

If you agree, I will, in the future, submit all propsed links to the "talk" pages and work with you and/or other Wikipedia administrators in making future submissions.

Is this acceptable to you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillLoney (talk • contribs) 01:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Bill, you will not be facing the threat of a lawsuit at any time...ever. We even have a strict policy against legal threats. If people make such threats they are indefinitely blocked from editing. You have nothing to worry about. Yes you can restore the links. And no you don't have to submit all proposed links to the talk pages, since they're basically the same link. I only have one request: while you are not required to do so, please consider adding at least some of the translations to this website. You may restore your website now as there is no Wikipedia policy that says that you are at threat of being sued for what you did. We revert thousands of real external link spammers every day and we don't sue them, so why would you be sued? Especially because your website is actually useful, unlike the people who try to ad advertisements on Wikipedia. Please take my word as a Wikipedia administrator, if you don't believe me you can ask other people. I hope now that this matter is resolved, feel free to restore all the links (without submitting any proposal on the talk page) but consider what I said about Wikisource. Cheers and happy editing. Khoikhoi 02:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Thank you very much. In all sincerity I am grateful to you and to Wikipedia for this turn of events - as well as to all who contributed their time in an effort to get this matter resolved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillLoney (talk • contribs) 03:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Final Note (I hope!) : I have restored wilbourhall.org, as well as all the removed links from Wikipedia to that site. Thank you again to everyone. I apologize if I got a bit hot under the collar (but at least I think I got the statement of the Rule Against Perpetuities right!.) Please feel free to visit wilbourhall.org. If anyone finds anything objectionable about the site, please let me know by contacting me at the email address provided there. BillLoney (talk) 12:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I've removed the links until you have a chance to respond to questions posed here. As stated there, your site does appear to host some really useful information, with a minimum of advertising. However, I have some real concerns as to why you would post an editorial comment about Wikipedia at the top of the page you're asking us to link to. --Ckatz chat spy  05:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

User Ckatz copied material from the source code of my wepbage and posted it to this link.here. Please remove the remarks you he above from my webpage. Distateful as you may find them I OWN THE COPYRIGHT. YOU COPIED IT AND POSTED IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION. PLEASE REMOVE THEM AND ALL REFERENCE TO THEM. PLEASE COMPLY WITH WITH THE LAW REGARDING COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. AS IT SAYS "Content that violates any copyright will be deleted." PLEASE DO SO IMMEDIATELY. I AM MERELY ASKING FOR COMPLIANCE WITH THE LAW AND WITH WIKIPEDIA'S OWN POLICY ABOUT QUOTING FROM WEBPAGES WITHOUT PERMISSION. THOSE WORDS QUOTED FROM MY WEBPAGE WITHOUT MY PERMISSION ARE MY INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillLoney (talk • contribs) 15:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Physics
Stale. OK User:Army1987 did a BRD, while I have been away from wikipedia, the edit created formatting areas and basically deleted all the old content off the page. I Do not like what he did, but he did add some content but for the most part his new version is a mess right now, And I personally think he went a little too far. He also removed the Main image for the Article in question; the edit was made 13:23, September 1, 2008. I want arbitration, but 1st I want at least a few opinions; this is a very high priority article.--GlasGhost (talk) 19:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi and thank you for posting here. That user certainly was bold but it appears that there has been relatively little reaction to his edits. You, of course, are free to revert whatever change he made. In fact, you may want to do your own rewrite because you're correct in saying that as it stands the article is mess. Notably, the article isn't really written in Summary Style at all, but rather a haphazard jumble of information and is nowhere close to being a cohesive article. I say, do whatever you want to try and improve the article; it would be difficult to make it any worse. Best, epicAdam(talk) 20:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Dispute over Alfred Lee Loomis
Stale. This is about a dispute with an editor (or possibly two of them), over Alfred Lee Loomis. The dispute centers on, but is not restricted to, handling of a book cover image.

I have recently started trying to clean up Alfred Lee Loomis. An editor much more experienced than I am with scientist biographies and with Wikipedia image selection (User:Astrochemist) replaced a scanned image of the cover of a biography of Loomis, Tuxedo Park. I was relieved at Astrochemist's change: I had suspected for a while that the cover was in violation of WP:FURG, but didn't feel confident in replacing it, not being very expert on that policy. Astrochemist's substitution is unsatisfactory in some ways, I'll admit -- the photo features an illustrious group, with some figures better known that Loomis, and Loomis appearing only on the right margin. But the fair-use argument for this choice seems much stronger, and in any case Loomis was nothing if not a great collaborator with some of the scientific superstars of his time, so a group photo showing him among some of them is not inexactly inappropriate.

Another editor, at IP 65.196.169.194 almost immediately reverted the image change, and reverted it at least one more time since. There is a strong correlation between the articles edited by IP 65.196.169.194 and the user User:83d40m, who (IIRC) originally supplied the Tuxedo Park book cover image. The arguments in favor of using the book cover image aren't bad, except for one thing: the book cover image might violate policy, specifically WP:FURG. A look at the talk page for User:83d40m reveals that this same editor has been warned repeatedly over similarly problematic image selections. Neither IP 65.196.169.194 nor User:83d40m has offered any argument in favor of the book cover much stronger than saying that lots of articles have book cover images. (Whether that's true or not doesn't matter -- maybe those articles are also in violation of WP:FURG?)

As part of my cleanup of Alfred Lee Loomis, I've tried verifying this article, which seems to be basically a capsule summary of Tuxedo Park, against other sources. The book is not 100% reliable. In a review of this book linked in the External Links sections, several errors and exaggerations are pointed out, and the relative lack of source citations is also mentioned. Overreliance on a single source, especially one of demonstrably imperfect reliability, at the same time prominently featuring the book cover -- this seems to me to veer too close to being an extended blurb for the book itself.

However, when I added descriptions of an external link saying that one of them was for a book review that pointed out errors in the book, this description was deleted in the same edit where the problematic Tuxedo Park book cover image was, once again, restored.

User:83d40m has been a source of misinformation or unverifiable claims about Alfred Lee Loomis, including the statement that Loomis was the model for Bruce Wayne (Batman), that Loomis invented encephalography (which in fact predates Loomis in its earliest forms), that Loomis invented (rather than co-invented) the centrifuge microscope. I don't know for sure that IP 65.196.169.194 is User:83d40m, but the behavior is strikingly similar. If they are not the same, then ... well, make that a dispute with TWO editors after all.

I really don't know what the next step is here. Help? Yakushima (talk) 13:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If you think it's certain that the user is the same person editing under the IP, I'd start by going to Suspected Sock Puppets. You'll never get anything settled with sockpuppeting going on. Following that, try dispute resolution. You're right about the book cover FWIW; because it's non-free, it would only be acceptable in an article about the book, not the man. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 16:41, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

The Day Joyce Sheet
Resolved. I am confused about the status of this photo, Image:Day Joyce Sheet.jpg, which appears in the above article. If I click on the "enlarge" icon that appears below it I get to a larger image and the non-free use rationale that I have submitted. It would appear that the rationale has been accepted, since the image still appears in the article. I accept that this larger image cannot be used in the article. If I add a non-free fair use tag will that be sufficient to satisfy Wikipedia requirements? 91.125.255.98 (talk) 16:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a fairly specialized question. Please post at WT:NFC; the editors who hang out there are far better versed in those policies. --AndrewHowse (talk) 22:35, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Senate bill 0099
Stale. Byron York of The National Review recently wrote a piece about Illinois Senate bill 0099. Articles have also appeared in The Economist, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Washington Times, CNN, FOXNews, and many other media oulets. However, Wikipedia no longer has a page on the talk of the town, Senate bill 0099. What a shame. Or, more aptly, what a sham.

I charge the page was deleted to perpetuate the myth it's purpose was to teach kindergarteners about "stranger danger." The bill was accompanied by the published Guidelines for Comprehensive Sexuality Education: K-12th Grade. As the now-deleted wiki page explained, it mandated Illinois public schools teach students as young as kindergarteners techniques for preventing HIV/AIDs, and give them instruction on masturbation, abortion, and sexual harassment. A simple web search for Senate bill 0099 reveals a great deal about the bill, including a link to the now-deleted Wiki page. 75.81.205.154 (talk) 22:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * As you probably know since you commented there, the result of Articles for deletion/Senate bill 0099 was deletion of Senate bill 0099. See also Why was my page deleted? Do you have a request for editor assistance which is what this page is for? PrimeHunter (talk) 23:00, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Final Destination books
Stale. Okay, leaving aside whether or not this is even a useful article... there's a series of anon editors who are constantly adding way too many wikilinks to the article text. Multiple editors have attempted to open a conversation with the anon user(s) (it's pretty clearly one person), to no avail. I'm at a loss as to what to do next. Prince of Canadat 11:44, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I tend to think that the page is of rather little value, and that AfD might be the best solution. I don't think it meets the persistent frequent vandalism criteria for semi-protection, and you've tried to engage the anon(s) in some sort of conversation. Perhaps you'll post your thoughts; I'll be happy to do the nom unless you object. --AndrewHowse (talk) 22:28, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I think the page is of no value whatsoever. Doesn't even qualify as plot summaries--those tend to be, you know, summaries, which are generally somewhat shorter.  I'll propose it at AfD and see what happens.  I agree that the editor's actions don't quite meet vandalism criteria, but it's so close, y'know?  Remember in the 80's, how (American) sitcoms would get around language rules by saying things like "that thing was a piece of shiitake"?  The actions of this editor seem the same to me.  It looks bad, it smells bad, but you can't quite take action.  Anyway.. I'll pop over to AfD and see where it goes. Prince of Canadat 22:35, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

malicious post targeted at an individual - cached by google
Resolved. An unknown person has posted harmful fabricated information about a semi-public figure designed to cause personal damage to that person. This information is no longer on wikipedia's servers, but remains in the cache of google.

This is where the information was: http://en.mobile.wikipedia.org/transcode.php?go=Robert+Godley&PHPSESSID=36c1d3b92f8bf21fb7b13cfd4150541d

How can one prompt this cache to be refreshed?

The cached page in question appears on the first search results page in google when "robert godley wikipedia" is searched. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Psychobunny123 (talk • contribs) 04:25, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for posting here. Google is responsible for its own cache data. There is no way for any editor on Wikipedia to control how Google archives search data. Typically, Google will re-archive an article within four weeks, at which time their computers will archive a new cache of the page "as is". Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do to speed up this process; you'll just have to wait until Google goes through its normal caching procedures. Best, epicAdam(talk) 05:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Please Remove Copyrighted material from Wikipedia's servers
Resolved. User Ckatz copied material from the source code of my wepbage and posted it to this link.here. Please remove the material he took from my webpage without first obtaining prior permission. Distateful as you may find them I OWN THE COPYRIGHT. HE COPIED IT AND POSTED IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION. PLEASE REMOVE THEM AND ALL REFERENCE TO THEM. PLEASE COMPLY WITH WITH THE LAW REGARDING COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. AS IT SAYS "Content that violates any copyright will be deleted." PLEASE DO SO IMMEDIATELY. I AM MERELY ASKING FOR COMPLIANCE WITH THE LAW AND WITH WIKIPEDIA'S OWN POLICY ABOUT QUOTING FROM WEBPAGES WITHOUT PERMISSION. THOSE WORDS QUOTED FROM MY WEBPAGE WITHOUT MY PERMISSION ARE MY INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.

BillLoney (talk) 15:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi. Thank you for posting here, but please do not shout (i.e. using all capital letters, it is not helpful). To file a copyright complaint you should contact Wikipedia directly, following the instructions found at WP:COPYVIO. However, I do not believe the quoted material violates copyright and is clearly a case of Fair Use; the rights of others to use excerpts of copyrighted material is a well-established aspect of copyright law. Best, epicAdam(talk) 16:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have notified User:Ckatz of this discussion, since he was mentioned above. EdJohnston (talk) 16:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Ed, for letting me know about this. I'm quite confident this is not a case of copyright infringement, given that a) the text was not used in an article; b) it was a quote of material written by the user in question, used specifically to ask the user about why he had posted it; and c) was clearly attributed to the user's web site. Furthermore, it was not taken from the source code, but straight from the page as visible to any visitor. (He made some mention of having "commented it out"; however, he must not have succeeded in doing so as the material displayed normally in Firefox when I typed in the page address.) I'd also note that the user read through the text, acknowledged the concerns, and replied to them without any mention of "copyright" concerns. It wasn't until he returned nine hours later that the complaint was filed. Hope this helps. --Ckatz chat spy  18:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

What is maximum time is for second submission of wiki article?
Resolved. Hi, I am new to wiki and trying to post an article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Submissions/Theo_Caldwell

I have tried to folllow the steps and I have submitted a second posting and I am just wondering how long a second submission usually takes before being reviewed? Ctrethewey (talk) 19:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!


 * I don't think the editors over there have published any sort of typical timing, so I don't think there is an answer. btw, since you're registered, you just need to make a few constructive edits in order to be autoconfirmed, and then you could just go ahead and create it, if you're comfortable that your article subject meets the notability standards. --AndrewHowse (talk) 00:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * New registered users can create pages without being autoconfirmed. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:08, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Quite right; my mistake. Separately, I'm not sure that Theo Caldwell's notability is clearly established, so User:Ctrethewey might well face some challenges should s/he go ahead and create the article. --AndrewHowse (talk) 03:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)