Wikipedia:Education noticeboard/Incidents/Archive 2

Motor system as a test case for this board

 * Refactored from Test case at the old ENB
 * Article: Motor system'''
 * Course: Education Program:Georgia Institute of Technology/Introduction to Neuroscience (Fall 2013) (temporary copy)
 *  Instructor:  ,
 *  Online volunteers: , ,
 * Student:

So, motor system is on my watchlist from my work on motor disorder, an article I created last month after DSM5 redefined neurodevelopmental disorders of childhood to motor disorders. It was tagged by a student today (well, that's a start, but s/he could have tagged it a month or two ago, when there was more time before term-end to guide him or her, but students tend to show up just as their deadlines approach, and one always has to go looking for their sandbox or course or professor). So, I pointed to his/her sandbox on talk, and went over to begin helping him/her craft something useful from the sandbox (as I've done so far this term on multiple student sandboxes, to little avail), and found that the effort to turn that student essay into something usable is more than I have time for, and the effort to type so much to explain to a student everything that is wrong there is not worth the reward, as these students never return to give back on other articles, rarely respond on talk, and never stay around to maintain their articles or help correct the issues that are tagged as needing to be fixed. Motor system is a stub, but what is at User:Arnabrchakrab/sandbox is hardly usable. A stub which says little is more useful than an essay that says too much of nothing right. The student has put a lot of work into the sandbox, but getting that text into usable shape will take a large effort. But the student will probably drop it in there in a week or so, as term-end approaches (along with a couple dozen or more student sandboxes that will be dropped into articles I watch at about the same time). Some parts are incomprehensible, much is off-topic, the article will end up with multiple tags, I can't check for copyvio (not all sources are accessible), and I can already see it uses primary sources. If it is dropped into the article, why would I not just revert the whole thing? That is what would be done with a regular editor-- it would be moved to talk, and the editor wanting to add it would be expected to do the cleanup. How much cleanup am I expected to do? I have done little but cleanup since the university term began. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 04:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not quite ready to make a final judgement yet, as a typical article of my own could look something like that at a certain stage of drafting, but certainly what is there now won't do at all. Looie496 (talk) 16:39, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * But term-end is nearing.   Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 21:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it fair to me that a kid's grade and fate is in my hands? User talk:Arnabrchakrab .  I hope you're all happy, because I'm not.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * And now we have a desperate (rightly so) student edit warring to reinsert the content I removed, after Looie496 concurred it wasn't up to snuff. Of course, this board is silent.  How do you all expect to handle cases like this?  Do you want me to go over and template a poor student who just wants his grade for edit warring?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:15, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * If a user is edit warring, I template them. If unresponsive, I report them at WP:AN3. Student or not, doesn't matter. Edit warring is edit warring. --Geniac (talk) 23:42, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * You see, this is why I think it's not good enough to say, as Mike has done, that the WEF Board is too busy exchanging emails, working on the website (I thought this was the website!) and so on to engage with a page such as this one. The silence and apparent lack of interest in what's actually doing on here on Wikipedia is demoralizing at best, and both irresponsible and rude at worst.  And as I've said before, if the Board is swamped, it can always organize elections to bump its numbers back up and replace those who have left. But this is not good enough.  --00:02, 19 November 2013 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbmurray (talk • contribs)
 * I can't spend as much time as I would like to on this board today (not WEF obligations, just real life). Sandy deserves a reply, and I will respond as soon as I can; tomorrow at the latest.  I will say, though, that the WEF can't be a labour force to deal with these issues.  I would rather try to fix the problems at the source, so fewer and fewer classes cause problems, so that less labour is needed.  I know that doesn't help Sandy at the moment, but this is a systemic issue, and needs to be fixed that way.  I think the WEF has a better chance of doing that than any individual editor.  Sandy, when I can I will try to help out with these articles, and if the articles are by members of the class I'm working with (at least a couple are) I will certainly talk to the professor about how to avoid a recurrence of the problems.  One other point: it's been two days since I last posted on this board, and I see the WEF is being chastised for silence on this issue.  We'll never, ever, post as fast as the community can respond in turn; it's just not possible.  I remember being chastised by Awadewit once for trying to draw a discussion to a conclusion in less than 48 hours; she pointed out that most people don't live on Wikipedia time, where several hours is a slow response.  I'll respond as soon as I can.  Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 00:59, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe I was present for that conversation with Awadewit :) But here's what you're missing.  This one course has dropped more than a dozen poorly written essays into mainspace in the course of a day.  That is only one of the many courses that hits me all the time.  Sit in my shoes for a day, and watch my watchlist.  This Program Is Crazy-Making, and I haven't been able to get you all to pay attention.  So I posted in real time today, so you can see what a day in my life is like, and so you could see how bad this problem is !! Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:10, 19 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I am not reporting a poor student (who is the victim of a lousy professor and a bad bad bad program) for only trying to do what s/he has to do to get a grade. These poor students are running around desperate today, and the WMF/WEF staffers are silent.  I can only hope they are silent because they are ashamed of themselves.  But I doubt it ... Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:09, 19 November 2013 (UTC)


 * If a student's contribution represents a net negative, revert it, and if you know who their ambassador or instructor is, drop them a note. The fact that a student is receiving a grade for what they are doing doesn't mean you should let bad content stay up. Treating student editors as new editors means that, just as policies like WP:BITE apply to them, policies like WP:MEDRS do too. IME, in many cases where a student's content ends up getting removed, it doesn't significantly effect their actual grade on the assignment anyway.  If you'd like, you can literally just drop edits that need to be reverted here or on my talk page and I can revert them myself and thus act as the grinch. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:21, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Not possible or feasible. Pretty much every student in that class, at this point, should be reverted.  It's not fair to the one student who happened to be my test case-- none of the rest of them are any better (although a couple of them are, to their credit, responding appropriately to me on talk and trying their best).  The students are the victims here.  Well, along with our readers, but I digress ... Oh, and I have already pinged every ambassador and campus whatchacallit and prof to this discussion.  Silence overwhelms.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:25, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look through the rest of the class's contributions, and revert any where it's clear to me the content represents a net negative. This isn't exactly my field, so I may miss some, but I 100% support mass reversion of students' contributions where they represent significant net negatives.  We're here to build an encyclopedia, and if student work is damaging that, we shouldn't leave it up just because they may be graded on it.  I'll also email the professor explaining the situation at some point today once I'm done going through their work. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:30, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Kevin, you aren't understanding the extent of the problem. You aren't equipped to do this!  The students have not included PMIDs, which is the first step in helping to easily check if they are using primary sources (case studies, research, etc instead of reviews), and even if they had used secondary reviews, it will take experienced medical editors a good deal of time to determine if sources are used correctly.  You all, even with the best of intentions, do not understand that these students are not equipped to be writing this content, and that checking it requires medical expertise.  You don't even have links to the abstracts to be able to examine the sources, and in the one case where I added them (the menopause mess), they are now gone.  Do you know how to search PubMed for PMIDs, and then, do you have journal access to look at the articles and determine if they are using primary sources, and if secondary reviews are being used correctly?  Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-30/Dispatches.  The professor has not taught them basic medical editing info ... it is not their fault!  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:40, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * See this sample citation:
 * Click on the PMID, then when you are at PubMed, click on the bottom where it says "Publication type"-- you see it is a review rather than a case report, comparative study, whatever. And full text is available, which is rarely the case.  You can tell by reading the source titles on many of these student essays-- even without PMIDs-- that they are using primary sources.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:43, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Er, yeah, I do have journal access (through MIT, Berkeley, and Columbia,) and am quite good at digging up the sources that people are using. You're right that I don't have time (or patience) to examine each article in depth and correct every problem, but I certainly have the ability to revert to good versions where they exist, and tag articles where no solid version exists to fall back on.  That said, looking at some of this stuff kind of makes me want to say the WEF or ENWP's community needs to come up with a way to only allow approved, vetted courses to touch medical areas.  I think you're also either overestimating the amount of medical expertise needed to review articles, or underestimating the amount of medical expertise I have.  Trying to fix all of these articles would make me want to kill myself, but I'm quite certain that if I wanted to spend the time doing so, I could rewrite many of the articles in to high quality MEDRS-compliant articles.  Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:52, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Not so much expertise, but when they haven't even used PMIDs, just way too time consuming. I don't want to kill myself, but I do want to go to my room, shut the door, and either scream, kick the pillow, or cry.  My boys were once college students; what is being done to these kids is no good for anyone, and no good for us.  We now have one student out of gobs whose work is reverted, my fault for choosing that test case, when his work is no better or worse than all the rest.  Yes, my point has always been that it would be faster and a better use of our time for us to write these articles ourselves, and that if we are going to be training the students, we would at least want them to stick around and help.  But they never do-- so our effort is wasted.  Kevin, thank you for understanding this time.  I do appreciate it.  Now to my room.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:00, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Kevin, you say looking at some of this stuff kind of makes me want to say the WEF or ENWP's community needs to come up with a way to only allow approved, vetted courses to touch medical areas; I made a similar suggestion here, and I'd like to see more discussion of something along those lines. If the community came up with a specific guideline for students working on medical articles that's something the WEF could certainly help disseminate.  Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 01:06, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It's too late, Mike; that isn't enough!!! Re-read my whole post ... many of what are hitting us now are unregistered courses.  The horse is out of the barn.  Every college prof wants free TAs.  Something internal won't work anymore.  Press release !!!   Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:14, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Mike Christie, the community already has a guideline. It is called WP:MEDRS. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. ) while signing a reply, thx 12:09, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Mike Christie, the community already has a guideline. It is called WP:MEDRS. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. ) while signing a reply, thx 12:09, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Back to Motor system, test case

 * Course: Education Program:Georgia Institute of Technology/Introduction to Neuroscience (Fall 2013) (temporary copy)
 *  Instructor:  ,
 *  Online volunteers: , ,
 *  Student:

Actually, more than one student reverted, Sandy. I wasn't kidding when I said I was going to go through the whole class. I've reverted to previous versions where they exist, and tagbombed where they don't (still going through them.) I wish there was a more specific "this article horribly fails WP:MEDRS" tag. I've pretty much always agreed with you that medical classes are hugely problematic and have said multiple times that I support things like mass reversion in cases like this, so I'm not positive why the caveat 'this time' is needed, heh. Dropping the professor an email in a bit, since with this many students fucking up, it is obviously an instructional design problem, and not the fault of the students. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:11, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * They are just kids :'( They don't deserve this.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:14, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Weird comment.... but afk for probably half an hour, I need to go chase down an escaped chicken. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:15, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Well that was easier than I expected, back. And I agree with you Sandy, they don't deserve to get dropped in the deep end with no guidance. This is the professor's fault, not theirs.  But the unfortunate fact that the students pretty much got screwed over shouldn't be allowed to mess up our content.  With an email to the professor, I sincerely doubt he'll do anything like fail everyone or anything like that.  It's still a colossal amount of unfortunately wasted effort on their parts :/ Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:20, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually lied, I'm not going to look over all the student contributions right away. EVERY SINGLE one I checked (about twenty) had severe problems. I'm dropping the professor an email, and if necessary will handle the cleanup of the rest of what this class has generated myself.  Trust me Sandy, I get that shit like this isn't okay, I'm just not in a position to stop it. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:24, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Professor emailed, hopefully they still have enough time left in their semester to repair their work. I would hate to see this much effort go down the drain, but pretty much nothing the class has written is compliant with MEDRS :/ Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:42, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I am still catching up this morning, think that we may have one good article, but the template you want, Kevin, is {{subst:MEDREF}}; that is more specific and gives more information than the generic primary sources template. I remain dismayed at what the students and we are going through because of this course, and note that neither of the editors listed as course professors in the course description have any Wikipedia editing experience. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:29, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I hadn't come across that one before and will use it going forward. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:39, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Update 27 Nov
This reverted article is back. It's hard to get beyond the first sentence.  The student basically says that she or he is posting it anyway and s/he didn't get help before.  Again, there are not enough of "us" to tutor all of "them", yet there is urgency to get an article added to mainspace so it can be graded before term-end. or will need to look at this one to decide if it should again be reverted. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 23:42, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Ten days, no followup, I reverted. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Inappropriate use of article talk pages

 * Refactored from Test case at the old ENB


 * Article: Various
 * Course: Education Program:Georgia Institute of Technology/Introduction to Neuroscience (Fall 2013) (temporary copy)
 *  Instructor:  ,
 *  Online volunteers: , ,
 * Student: various


 * copied from Education Program talk:Georgia Institute of Technology/Introduction to Neuroscience (Fall 2013). Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

As I try to go about my usual editing, I am finding my watchlist overwhelmed by inappropriate talk page edits this course's students. Article talk pages are used for article improvement: Wikipedia is not homework. Your students are entering peer reviews on article talk pages. Those entries have the following problems:
 * 1) They do not engage Wikipedia's standards or content policies and guidelines, nor is there any awareness of Wikipedia's internal assessment processes.  In other words, they have nothing to do with Wikipedia.
 * 2) They are inevitably glowing reports (scores of 15 to 18 out of 20), even when on very poor articles.  Clearly, friends reviewing friends' articles is a COI, and not an appropriately neutral review.  We would not allow such a thing among other editors (where neutrality in review is expected).
 * 3) Every time an article talk page entry triggers a watchlist alert, other editors have to check those pages, which wastes our time.

Please refrain from having students post homework on article talk pages; they can post these to editor talk pages. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 23:52, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree we are here to build an encyclopedia. Posting the courses marking onto the talk page as done here is not appropriate.  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:02, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Enough is enough with respect to "eek! students showed up on my watchlist". There's a case to be made that feedback on content is about improving a page. Of course I agree that most of these particular comments are lightweight and uninformed about our editing guidelines, but we don't prohibit low-quality talk page comments by new editors. How these comments are being used in the class, including criticisms, is discussed above, at . --Tryptofish (talk) 00:08, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * We do prohibit talk page comments that are not here to improve the encyclopedia. I do not see how these are useful except to the course in question. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:06, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It was my idea to have the students put their peer reviews on each other's talk pages. I'm not sure, but perhaps these peer reviews are more appropriately actually grading rubrics. If they are grading rubrics (the only example I saw actually contained actionable information), then they just help us understand, in a transparent way, what the incentives are for this classroom. I support transparency and alignment of student incentives to follow Wikipedia guidelines. I'm not sure, but it is possible part of the grading rubric we see on the talk pages is one student telling the other they followed WP:MEDRS. Anyhow, I think someone will be going to WP:ANI about this class anyways. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. ) while signing a reply, thx 09:54, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Bios, you said "each other's talk pages". That would be a perfectly reasonable use of Wikipedia for homework, but that is not what they're doing.  They're doing it in article talk space.  Please clarify your post.  Also, based on what I've seen from this class, it is unlikely they know the difference between article space and user space.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:43, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if you're referring to me as the someone who may go to ANI, but no, I'm not planning to go to ANI. Once my Thanksgiving guests have left, I plan to seek guidance on whether writing to school newspapers, department chairs, etc would get me into trouble.  It is clear that there is no "there" "here" when it comes to anyone on Wikipedia or any WMF/WEF staff being able to do anything to contain this problem.  It needs to go to the press, and no one here is doing that.  I am planning to begin approaching schools at a level above the professor, unless someone tells me for some reason that would be sanctionable.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:35, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm with Trypto here. I think it's a good thing that students are using talk pages at all (as many have commented, this is often one of the biggest hurdles for them to jump). We can't be too persnickety. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 16:14, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I forgot to unwatch and saw this on edit summary. Well, with term-end approaching, perhaps I can regain my sanity.  Two samples:
 * Talk:Cannabidiol effect on epilepsy (two peer reviews that have zero to do with Wikipedia's assessment policies)
 * Talk:Postmenopausal_confusion (three peer reviews that have zero to do with Wikipedia's internal assessment policies)
 * So, on those two articles alone, I had five watchlist entries to check yesterday, for no reason related to Wikipedia, no benefit for the article, no benefit for our readers, no benefit for our editors. Yes, I am thrilled that one week before they leave Wikipedia for good, these students have finally figured out how to post to a talk page; how nice it would have been if the course design taught them to post on talk first (see sample above where multiple editors from this course don't even know how to post to a talk page, after they have moved articles to mainspace). Why can't they post this off-Wikipedia stuff to editor talk pages instead of article talk pages, so they don't burden establishe editors?  (Watching this discussion unless it gets to a making-me-nauseous again stage ... )Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Oof - will jump into this for a moment, (and hi Sandy!) - this is something I'm really ambivalent about for the following reasons: peer editing in general is a can of worms that students would rather avoid and one that I think we should try to avoid on Wikipedia. If the instructors/professors/students are to write on Wikipedia, then they should follow Wikipedia policies. If they want the articles to be rated, which really is a form of peer editing, then someone (campus ambassador, prof, instructor, TA) should know about enough about Wikipedia policies to tell each student where to go to seek an article rating. BUT - imo, aside from the can of worms that peer editing invariably brings with it (students don't like to grade each other's writing and imo they shouldn't - that's the job of the person teaching the class but I hold an outlier position in regard to this philosophy) - the bigger issue is that it's really important, again imo, that the person running the class understands Wikipedia policy and again, imo, (sorry, but I'm opinionated and the reason I've stayed out of this situation), no one really understands Wikipedia policy without becoming an editor him or herself. So, what to do about these? Nothing, at least not now. Send to archives when the term ends. In the long run, though I think that editing Wikipedia has to be an all or nothing experience for the students. And while I'm here (because I might step far away again), I'd suggest that students should have the choice whether or not to do assignments here or in a more traditional manner (I've done this and the results astounded me); and if they must do their assignments here, I'd suggest that with the steep learning curve, a section of an article be considered sufficient - or given equal weight to a more traditional approach. Anyway, a few more than 2 cents. Thanks. Victoria (talk) 17:03, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

This is solved, so I will merge the Georgia IT subhead to the section above, and unwatch again. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 16:55, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * - (sorry, pinging you and you want to unwatch!) - can't imagine how we didn't edit conflict. I guess you posted as I was writing. Should I refactor my post? Victoria (talk) 17:08, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * not to worry-- I got no edit conflict, but four Wikimedia errors messages when trying to merge. Unwatch now, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 17:13, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

There are still problems with article talk pages being filled with meaningless student peer reviews, because the students do not engage Wikipedia's internal assessment processes and are insufficiently versed in Wikipedia policy and guideline to be doing assessments. Because moving their "homework" off of article talk pages to student talk pages is time consuming, I've been insteading using hat and hab to close them with a note that they are reviews from classmates and often don't engage Wikipedia standards. I frequently find statements that contradict Wikipedia guidelines. Could we please get, , and others to encourage their students to review their friends' work on user talk pages? '''Could we add something to this effect somewhere in Ed program write-ups ??? It is time consuming to deal with invalid peer reviews popping on one's watchlist. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 15:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Strategic planning in the public sector

 * Article:
 * Course: Unknown
 * Instructor: Unknown
 * Student:, , , ,

Strategic planning in the public sector is a class sandpit; I'm nominated it at Articles for deletion/Strategic planning in the public sector. Stuartyeates (talk) 05:52, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't appear they will be using the Sandbox I set up for them. Who is checking for plagiarism?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 05:37, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The AfD resulted in the page being moved back into the sandbox. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:02, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Female Genital Mutilation
This is on my watchlist as it's been problematic before. See Talk:Female_genital_mutilation, where, and  are raising concerns. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 02:13, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I was in the process of wondering whether to post this, so I'll add below what I have. It's two articles so far: FGM and Nike. The above is from Jbmurray, by the way. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:26, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * this board has very little participation and there is only a handful of editors dealing with the problems; you might want to dig in to help in other incidents. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

University of Illinois Springfield

 * Articles: ,
 * Course: Gender studies. Not known whether it's part of the Education Program.
 * Instructor:
 * Students: ,

Two students from the University of Illinois Springfield have added essays to Nike, Inc. (4,838 words added) and Female genital mutilation (1,563 words added). The students or tutor have been reverting, and myself when we tried to remove it. 

There are problems with both essays in terms of UNDUE, the sourcing and the writing. In the Nike article the additional material really is just a personal essay, and in FGM a lot of it was already in the article. Notes have been left for one of the students here and the tutor here. The tutor has now posted on the FGM talk page.

I wonder whether someone from the Education Program would be willing to ask the tutor to stop reverting on behalf of his students. It would also be helpful if he would post a list of the articles his students are working on, in case it's not just these two. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:26, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, I emailed the prof to find out if we can get a list of usernames/articles and to speak about the assignment in general and find out more. Hopefully I'll hear back and can let you know. Jami (Wiki Ed) (talk) 20:07, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That's very helpful, Jami, thank you. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:10, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm so disillusioned by the treatment my students' work has received in the last 48 hours, I'm not likely to assign projects related to Wikipedia in the future. For YEARS I've had students contribute to Wikipedia as part of a semester-long research and writing project and NEVER had I had the kind of responses I've received in the last two days. Longtime Wikipedia users have clearly elevated themselves to the status of "owners" and protectors of certain pages, circled the wagons, and policed content. If I assign online content creation in the future, it will likely be in a different digital community. The Wikipedia I knew and loved has clearly changed for the worse.ProfMurphy (talk) 00:53, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * We appear to have a very different understanding of what is and is not a secondary source. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:43, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * My apologies that this is harsh, but this may be the best outcome under the circumstances. It does not seem to me that the students were mistreated by editors here, but they may have been mistreated by an instructor who sent them here improperly prepared. Faculty are professionals, and have responsibilities. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:06, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If you are unwilling to work with the community it is best that you find a place which appreciates what you have to offer. It is my opinion that your strategy of setting disagreements by saying, "I will rely on my PhD in a historical discipline from a top 10 U.S. research university to guide me in what constitutes a primary and secondary source" is an indication that there will always be unresolvable conflict between your desires and the culture of this community. I confirm that the source you are asserting to be secondary - PMID - 17316934 - is what this community would call primary. I really appreciate your being here and trying to work with us. Even if you disagree with what has happened, I hope that you feel that the response you got was entirely predictable, backed with supporting documentation, and representative of what should happen to anyone else who did what you did. I am proud that the system in place reviewed the work you presented and delivered a response in accordance with the established protocols, and would be happy to give you more explanation if you wished. Everything here seems like a machine delivering output in my perspective. Thank you a lot for all the time you have spent here, but you are correct - people here look at contributions rather than contributors, and you are unlikely to find deference and privilege for your societal rank here but you may elsewhere. It is a huge regret of mine that I find myself unable to understand your perspective, and I hope someday that I find a way to learn it. I wish I were able to prevent people like you from having bad experiences here, and I am sorry that this process we have can be so unfriendly to people like you who mean well but are unable to interface here. If you have any suggestions for improvement then I would make sure that lots of people here come to know about them, if you shared them.   Blue Rasberry    (talk)   14:56, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Various messes from University of Memphis

 * Articles
 * Course: Education Program:University of Memphis/Wikipedia as a Research Tool (Fall 2013)
 *  Instructor:
 *  Online volunteers:
 *  Students:, , , , , , , , , and more
 * Course: Education Program:University of Memphis/Wikipedia as a Research Tool (Fall 2013)
 *  Instructor:
 *  Online volunteers:
 *  Students:, , , , , , , , , and more
 * Course: Education Program:University of Memphis/Wikipedia as a Research Tool (Fall 2013)
 *  Instructor:
 *  Online volunteers:
 *  Students:, , , , , , , , , and more

It appears from this thread that Jami should be able to identify the instructor and the course. A lot of promotional junk being created; allegedly a freshman university course, but looks more like high school. Zlewis67 acknowledges a COI on his first post. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 21:49, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the professor is User:RobertMem (class). He is incredibly devoted to making this a successful project in his class, so I'm sure he will be very eager to hearing productive suggestions! I will take a look at these articles and see if there is other specific feedback I can offer him. Thanks for bringing it here. Jami (Wiki Ed) (talk) 22:23, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Jami - do you know the class subject? Is it a composition class and is he allowing students to choose their own topics? Or is it in a different subject area? Just curious. Thanks, Victoria (talk) 22:38, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * User:RobertMem's expertise is in Anthropology, but this is a weekly Freshman Seminar for students in the Honors College. They were allowed to select articles of interest to them, since the class itself is about using Wikipedia rather than an academic subject. Jami (Wiki Ed) (talk) 23:17, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * (Not that using Wikipedia as research tool isn't academic, but you know what I'm saying. :) Jami (Wiki Ed) (talk) 23:18, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I glanced briefly at one of the articles and found quite a few problems: glaring prose errors, suboptimal use of sources, etc. As a course about Wikipedia, how do you think he'd feel about having his students have a full immersion and have the articles tidied - as would be done for non-student editors. Or are these off the table, so the speak, because they're part of a class exercise? Victoria (talk) 23:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * No way—that's never a problem! They are still new users here, and their work certainly needs some help, especially regarding formatting. If you say sourcing issues are big, though, or other things like that (more Wikipedia policy than subprime writing), it's something he can certainly focus on during the training period if he teaches this class again. I'll take a look, too, but definitely let me know if you see other major trends. Thanks so much! Jami (Wiki Ed) (talk) 23:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Personally I always consider the quality of the sourcing before looking at the prose, particularly given that WP:V is a pillar. Anyway, if he knows how to read diffs and can pull his students' versions from history for grading purposes, then I'd like to have a go at Kali Muscle with appropriate edit summaries to show what needs to be done. I have concerns about the image there as well. Anyway, I'll report back. Victoria (talk) 23:40, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * My apologies for any problems with the class postings. I rather rigorously followed the 12-week Wikipedia syllabus for creating Wikipedia pages.  I was perhaps overly reliant on some of the video tutorials about being "bold" statements about mistakes could be corrected, and so forth.  In fact, several of the student articles were edited specifically for violating neutral points of view and we had excellent discussions in class.  I will also readily admit that at least a handful of students through up trash in the last days of the class to get a grade.  In fact, as recently as 7 days ago, 4 students were graded 0/40 for their work to date because of the poor quality of what they had produced.  In hindsight, I see two ready solutions to the problem. One is to have all pages reviewed by editors before being moved out of sandboxes.  Second, is requiring my approval before moving the articles out of sandboxes.  To let you know that this experiment, though flawed, had some substantial benefits, see my blog post on same at Archaeology Museums and Outreach - In sum, I tried to follow the book from the established guidelines and have learned a lot in the process for my first time out.  In terms of the impact on students, I think the blog post shows that the process was worthwhile for user-generated content.  I will do much better next time through.  Best RobertMem (talk) 04:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)RobertMem
 * Note on the Kali Muscle article this is an article that was thrown up minutes before the last day of class, and an example of one of the underperforming students in the class. Seems that requiring an editor review or mine prior to page going live is an appropriate fix to such instances.  I am happy to have any editing done, however, truly substandard articles should be removed.  I will begin reviewing all tomorrow AM.  Again, learning as I go through the process too. RobertMem (talk) 05:53, 5 December 2013 (UTC)RobertMem
 * Robert, thank you very much for your thoughtful and helpful replies here. I think that you are exactly right about the approach that you are now taking, and I am confident that Wikipedia editors appreciate the effort that you are making. What you said about, in the future, setting a class requirement that students have to receive approval from you, as the instructor, before they can move their work from a sandbox to the mainspace, seems to me to be the best way to go. It's something that has been discussed recently for classes in general, on this page. You may have difficulty recruiting enough other editors to do the reviewing for you, but it would be ideal if you would do the reviewing yourself. Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:02, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Per Tryptofish, yes, thank you for the considerate response and approach (not what we typically see in here). There are not enough editors to review and correct the enormous amount of substandard student work hitting Wikipedia, so it would be helpful in the future if student work is not moved to mainspace without review.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:31, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Robert, thanks for taking the time to post here and reply. I see that Kali Muscle is up "AfD" ("Articles for deletion") review - the entry is here. If you want the student to keep in his/her sandbox, then posting a comment there to "userfy" the article would be helpful. I won't do any work on it while it's going through the AfD review because I suspect consensus will be to delete. As for students throwing up stuff at the last minute - that's a perennial problem with students (particularly at this time of year) and I'd like to think of a way that students writing for Wikipedia are guided through the process more slowly, i.e, in such a way they can't put up an article in haste the night before due. Obviously the most important difference between hitting print for a conventional paper just moments before walking into class and hitting save on a WP article, is that here it's published to the world. This, I think, is an issue the education program might take a look at. I don't bring students here (for lots of reasons) but do use WP as a tool. If I were to bring students here I think I'd probably tie the midterm grade to the work done on WP to force editing to start as early as possible. Sandboxes are great (I use them myself), but they don't always solve the last minute problem because a percentage of students will throw up sandbox edits at the last minute as well and those might never be moved. Instead, it would be better to have material written that adheres to our policies prior to midterms - either in a sandbox or in mainspace - that the students can then work on during the second half of the semester for the final points. Anyway, not all these thoughts are directed at you, simply general responses to points you made me think about. Please don't hesitate to ask questions at individual user pages if you need help or have questions. Victoria (talk) 20:36, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a very good idea, about tying Wikipedia contributions to the mid-term, instead of to the final. And, as I said before, it's very desirable that instructors themselves require students to get instructor permission before moving content out of sandboxes. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:44, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Case Western, multiple

 * Articles:, , ,
 * Course: Education Program:Case Western Reserve University/ANTH 302 Darwinian Medicine (Fall 2013)
 * Instructor:
 * Online volunteers: ,
 * Students:, , ,

I'm starting a section to being listing and summarizing the problems with this course, which seem to be hitting grading deadlines this week. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 18:13, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Could the instructor please advise the students on WP:MEDMOS and writing in encyclopedic tone, as well as the correct use of sources and the importance of engaging on talk? So far, it appears that established editors have invested a lot of time in teaching these students to edit Wikipedia, and Wikipedia has gotten very little usable content in return. Also, I am reposting below a description of the problem from the archives of WP:ENB. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 18:29, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Migraine: Text added twice that is basically a list: Talk:Migraine.  Very little interaction from the student, talk page not tagged or used.
 * Causes of autism: Very good talk page interaction from the student, but after lots of work and discussion, unclear yet if any meaningful text will emerge. Talk:Causes of autism
 * Osteoarthritis: Good talk page interaction, but in spite of that, the same issues recurred with multiple insertions of text.  Eventually,  salvaged and inserted two sentences himself.  Talk:Osteoarthritis
 * Copied from WP:ENB. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:29, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I think there's a fundamental problem with this whole course. As indicated by Jfdwolff, here '"I notice that the course focuses particularly on Darwinian medicine. I think it is very important to be clear that with regards to many medical conditions, evolutionary aspects may well be too underdeveloped scientifically to include into mainstream encyclopedia articles. Of course there are famous theories (about the evolutionary advantage of haemoglobinopathies in sickle cell disease, for instance) but unless these theories are covered in reliable secondary sources, there might well be a reason to exclude them from Wikipedia". This class was asked to pick articles from (among other criteria), "the list of most viewed articles on WikiProject Medicine". The assignment is almost guaranteed to be POV because the student is asked to find areas where there "are important evolutionary considerations not yet represented on Wikipedia, for example by consulting from evolutionary medicine resources". These sources are biased towards Darwinian medicine, which is a largely speculative endeavour. The students are not asked to consult the sources on the article subject and then see if the WP:WEIGHT given to evolutionary medicine issues within those reliable sources finds representation within the articles. A single review article on evolutionary medicine & the topic is regarded as sufficient. Although the students are asked to not evangelise for evolutionary medicine in their writing, it is hard to see how they can apply NPOV given the earlier advice.

The articles chosen are (name / class / daily hits)
 * Obsessive–compulsive disorder. C-class. 5600 hits.
 * Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder predominantly inattentive. Start-class. 1500 hits.
 * Hypothyroidism. B-class. 3400 hits.
 * Major depressive disorder. Featured article. 3500 hits.
 * Migraine. Good article. 3500 hits.
 * Dental caries. B-class. 1700 hits.
 * Coeliac disease. Featured article. 4400 hits.
 * Sarcopenia. C-class. 300 hits.
 * Narcolepsy. C-class. 3200 hits.
 * Multiple sclerosis. Featured article. 7300 hits.
 * Osteoarthritis. B-class. 2700 hits.
 * Inflammatory bowel disease. C-class. 1600 hits.
 * Color blindness. C-class. 3300 hits.
 * Pre-eclampsia. B-class. 2700 hits.
 * Osteoporosis. B-class. 2800 hits.
 * Demyelinating disease. C-class. 600 hits.
 * Causes of autism. C-class. 461 hits.

The prof running the course isn't an experienced Wikipedian. I have no doubt their intentions are good. However is hasn't been thought through and shows all the lack of preparation typical of student courses. Only on Wikipedia do we find professors teaching a topic they know nothing about (how to write for Wikipedia), asking students to do something they haven't done themselves. And please, can we stop repeating the "because this is the encyclopedia anyone can edit" as an excuse. These students and professors are welcome to edit Wikipedia on a voluntary basis like everyone else. But Wikipedia is not a homework assignment -- it is an encyclopaedia read by thousands of people every day. While something like Assignments is not policy, I see no good coming of this program at all. Colin°Talk 12:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I talked with the professor by phone for at least 30 minutes when I first heard of problems with this course. I have heard nothing from the professor or students since, but I expect that they have my contact info. I may or may not have looked over class work - I thought I left a few comments. The advice that I expect that I gave was for the class to talk on the discussion page when they do something and to watch discussion pages for follow-up after they edit. I hope that I told them to expect community feedback after they post; I try to emphasize this.  Blue Rasberry    (talk)   18:52, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, in the instances where I saw that you did that, the students have engaged. We have at least one above who hasn't/didn't though. Just beginning the list so we can determine if the instructor can improve course design. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:56, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I am the professor for this course. The students and I appreciate the time and effort you have put into feedback. Your comments raise a number of points to clarify or respond to. I acknowledge my lack of experience and steep learning curve. The intent of the assignment was to introduce a perspective to the topics, with supporting evidence, that is missing or could use updating. The existing pages describe some of the 'messiness' of human biology and the uncertainty about the topics. The assignment is intended to add to the discussion and to do so with reasonable supporting sources. So yes, the intentions were good. The videoconference with Blueraspberry was very useful. He did indeed tell me to expect feedback as he reports above. He offered a number of helpful suggestions that I passed on to the class. Blueraspberry also left comments on some of the students' work. I did not realize that there was an expectation to report back. My apologies. Just as you experienced wikipedians are reporting a range of reactions to this assignment, so are we. Finally, there is always room for improvement. I'm open to suggestions for the immediate term as well as the long term. Thank you for your consideration. Sanetti (talk) 23:22, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, I've found you (and your students) most pleasurable to deal with (something I can't say about other courses), and I hope whatever issues we discuss here will be helpful for you in terms of future course design. Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I would like to propose that this content goes on a subpage called "genetics of X" I have done this for migraine Genetics of migraine headaches and than left a "main template" from the article as seen here
 * High quality sources such as review articles and major textbooks will still be strongly recommended. A two sentence summary can than go in the main article. Thoughts? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:13, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I completed the citations, found a couple instances of good reviews used, but then found multiple primary sources, some very old sources, one source where I think the erratum should be consulted, and a concerning mix of reviews with primary sources to yield original research. I'm wondering what can be salvaged from this, and whether it just needs to be redirected to migraine.  Taking the one or two sentences that can be concluded from the reviews, and redirecting this to migraine is my recommendation, unless it can be better cited.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 05:00, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Talk:Hypothyroidism: Undue text based on one 2004 hypothesis dropped into article.  This case is troublesome, as hypothyroidism is being worked up by another editor for a GA nomination.  Could the instructor please explain WP:MEDMOS to the students? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 14:24, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Mechanoreception in star-nosed mole
Mechanoreception in star-nosed mole appears to be a student essay of some description. I've AfD'd it. Stuartyeates (talk) 04:05, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

"Potentially disruptive class project?"

 * Articles
 * Course: Unknown (UC Irvine ?) WikiProject Feminism/Students
 * Instructor:
 * Students:, , , ,
 * Course: Unknown (UC Irvine ?) WikiProject Feminism/Students
 * Instructor:
 * Students:, , , ,
 * Instructor:
 * Students:, , , ,

...or so it is described at ANI, The issue was raised first at the NPOV Noticeboard where more details are available. Course and instructor currently unknown. Voceditenore (talk) 12:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, ; I started listing the students and courses, and one of their contribs led to a course that appears to be somehow related to . Once I found the course, I stopped listing students and articles; perhaps Wadewitz will respond to the NPOV noticeboard thread and the ANI thread.   Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 06:01, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

"NSC 100 Class"

 * Course: Neuroscience 100, Middlebury College, no course page
 * Articles:
 * Agraphia
 * A success after extensive work from Dolfrog, Anthonyhcole, SandyGeorgia
 * Akathisia
 * Alcohol myopia
 * Alexia
 * Amenorrhoea
 * Amorphosynthesis
 * Caudate nucleus
 * Dorsolateral prefrontal cortex
 * Environmental enrichment (neural)
 * Hypergraphia
 * Nice work, but it uses rat studies and primary sources to make statements about pathophysiology, possibly others. I didn't sort them all out, too much work. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 09:42, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hypokinesia
 * Inferior temporal gyrus
 * Lateral inhibition
 * McGill Picture Anomaly Test
 * Neural masculinization
 * I don't know if anything can be salvaged here. It was sourced to student papers, a book with no page nos given, and a rat study.  I'm thinking that it should be prodded.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 08:55, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Neuroethics
 * Olfactory bulb
 * moved by Dolfrog, readded, removed
 * Posterior cingulate
 * Huge amount of work done there, most impressive, but the first section I checked used a primary source to assert a fact about a disorder, so the integrity of the entire article needs to be checked for WP:MEDRS. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 10:14, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Posterior cortical atrophy
 * Species-typical behavior
 * Temporoparietal junction
 * Instructor:
 * Students: Many

Beginning list so articles can be examined (this is the same unregistered course that created agraphia, which is in good shape after extensive editing by, and myself.)  , could you please let us know what the course is and what other articles have been edited, so they can be reviewed? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 16:18, 10 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Sandy, We appreciate your attention to our pages.  Both as a college class and as an institution, we are committed to ensuring that the final products are high quality.  To be clear, the course is ongoing until the end of this week.  We would be happy to follow up with you on the projects’ status at our talk page for Midd Intro Neuro.  We are happy to implement whatever strategies necessary to ensure quality Wikipages and to discuss strategies for future classes and have left you message to that effect.   Also at our talk page, you will find a list of the topics for the class.  As per the guidelines for this page, we would prefer to work out resolutions on the talk page for the course.  Our librarian will also be weighing in at that page.  Please comment there.  Thanks!  (Talk) Midd Intro Neuro (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 23:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * , One thing right off the bat that might be helpful would be if you did have a course page. Perhaps  can explain to you how to set one up.  If your students are still working, it would be nice if they added page numbers on book sources; without page nos, text isn't verifiable, and I'm seeing at least one article that I'm thinking will end up deleted for lack of verifiable sources.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 08:58, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, SandyGeorgia. I sent a message to offer to help create one. Jami (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:45, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * For whatever it's worth, I really think we need to be communicating on-wiki instead of using email as the primary means of communications. Victoria (talk) 17:50, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, this business of communicating offWiki creates all kinds of issues, including expectations from education program that the rest of us will do the same. I also fail to see why this course is insisting on communication on a user talk page; it's very strange. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:42, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much for your offer, Jami. It's much appreciated, and we'll take advantage of it as soon as we can! Lots more conversation is on the Midd Intro Neuro talk page, so I'll let the dialogue remain consolidated there.Carriemacfar (talk) 20:44, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

, you suggested you would be willing to help; what would you suggest doing with Neural masculinization? It was sourced to a book without page numbers, student papers online, and a rat study. I suggest it might be prodded. Once you take away the definition of estrogen and testosterone (which everyone knows), I can't tell what's left or what the topic even is. That's only the second article I've looked at, and I'm concerned that the students may be writing on topics well above their level.Sandy Georgia (Talk) 09:08, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Editorializing needs to be checked in all. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 10:19, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Neural masculinization needs to either go back to student sandbox, be prodded, or sent to AFD; google scholar has one hit on a rat study, and there is nothing here to work with, and I don't even know what the merge target is. Is there an admin around who wants to opine, fix, whatever?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:24, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Probably not, but as a non-admin I could suggest Neuroscience of gender differences as a merge target. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:55, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Good, thanks! Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:41, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 20:34, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Methodology of heuristics
I've just PROD'd Methodology of heuristics. To quote the PROD "A student essay on a made-up topic. Google scholar gives less than 100 hits for "Methodology of heuristics" as a phrase. Many of the sources are primary sources for this topic. The tone is completely unencyclopaedic." Stuartyeates (talk) 10:03, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Brain and Behavior (Lisa Lu)

 * Article:
 * Course: United States Education Program/Courses/Brain and Behavior (Lisa Lu)
 * Instructor:
 * Online volunteers: ,
 * Students: ,

I am parking this here because all of this student work needs to be checked. pointed out on my talk that this incorrect and uncited information, inserted by these students over a year ago, stood until yesterday. This is an indication that neither the prof nor the online instructors reviewed the editing from this class, and the result was incorrect information that stood on Wikipedia for over a year. Does anyone ever check course work after term-end? Will anyone check this old course work? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 16:40, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I am happy to check over these students' work. Is it just these students or is it everything from the class? Updates here as I work on it. (Just FYI, I'm very busy in the next two weeks with family/holiday obligations so I apologize in advance if I'm a bit slow responding.) Keilana&#124;Parlez ici 07:45, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi. I had some extra time on my hands tonight so I went through RyanFinn20's edits. The information added to "Drug-induced hallucinations" was reverted back to the previous version so that's taken care of. This edit and this edit clarified that command hallucinations were auditory, which is confirmed by the citation. This edit in "Schizophrenic hallucination" added material from a citation that is not MEDRS compliant - as this is clearly medical content that falls under that guideline I have removed the offending content. This edit to "Pathophysiology" added extensive quotations that need to be paraphrased, but I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough about psychology to do it justice. Otherwise, the Critchley source is MEDRS compliant (published 2009 & it's a MEDLINE indexed review) but the Hoffmann source is not (too old, not a review) so I have removed that as well. This edit also added quotes to "Pathophysiology" that need to be paraphrased. I'll look through the rest of the edits from the other two in the coming days. Keilana&#124;Parlez ici 08:08, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Keilana ... other than noting the unsourced addition that was brought to my attention on my talk page, I had not had time to go any further on this. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:48, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It's no problem! :) I've now had some sleep and gone through the rest of the edits. This edit added both unsourced information and information cited to non-MEDRS sources. I have removed that content. This edit was problematic but the content has already been removed. This edit and this edit added extensive quotations that need to be paraphrased. Loyola doesn't subscribe to that journal so I don't know if the article is a review or not - it's 6 years old so it barely doesn't meet MEDRS. Not sure what to do with that. The rest of their edits involved moving sections around, and the bad formatting that was introduced has been sorted out in the interim. NikolazSalinas only made one substantial edit. They added some content that remains, but the source meets MEDRS so I have left the content as is. I think that's it for the article, please do let me know if there's more you see that needs doing. Best, Keilana&#124;Parlez ici 18:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for doing that; right now I'm tied up, having spent hours trying to sort the messes from this term's Georgia IT Neuroscience course. I hope that Jami et al plan to have them make some changes next term.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:15, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Group of New/Newish Editors Creating/Editing pages about companies
I noticed some new pages created that seemed similar in layout and odd but similar reference formatting. After checking out the new page creators other edits, I saw that the same editors kept appearing editing the same pages, or pages that each other had created. This at first made me think there was sockpuppetry or paid/COI editing by PR companies occuring.

Most of these editors also had no user pages, but a few did and stated: "I'm currently a student in Beijing,the capital city of China, studying Management Science and Engineering(MSE)", or similar, so it now appears that it may be a class project.

Most have only been editing since Mid November, but at least one since 7 March 2013. This is editor. Her edit says "These edits are indeed part of a project aiming at improving information related to companies, as you can see. We sincerely hope that our editions can contribute to the development of Wikipedia."
 * Editors involved seem to be, at least:

Hope my 'investigation' is of some use, regards 220  of  Borg 14:41, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, this is clearly a project of some sort (and appears to go across several different schools in China). I've checked some, but far from all, of the edits, and I see that there are several pages that other editors have already taken to AfD, so, to the degree that there is promotional editing on behalf of companies, it looks like editors here have already been catching it. Other edits look to me like reasonable edits, such as adding a sentence about something new at a company, sourced to a recent news source, so, unless there is evidence of edit warring or tag team editing, the situation may be under control. But if there does turn out to be any tag-teaming etc., that needs to be dealt with. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:34, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * There does not seem to be an account for HCW3 (typo maybe?). For each of the others, I've left the "welcome student" template on their talk pages. It's not simply a welcome, but also points them in the right direction with respect to a student project. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:45, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Typo indeed, should be "HCW33", 'welcome student' delivered and link fixed! Thank you for your attention Tryptofish! :-) 220  of  Borg 17:49, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

More involved accounts


Student welcomes issued. 220  of  Borg 18:20, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

User:Davidwr/Tsinghua has a longer list
A couple of days ago I created User:Davidwr/Tsinghua. It's up to 24+ editors and 62+ articles. I'm still willing to extend good faith but these editors need to be given a combination welcome/education really fast before they do more damage to their reputation. There is already some discussion on User talk:Davidwr/Tsinghua.

If there is precedent for creating a stand-alone WP:Education sub-page to handle this complex case, I have no problem having someone move User:Davidwr/Tsinghua and/or User talk:Davidwr/Tsinghua to an appropriate location.

By the way, an administrator blocked earlier today over this.

Additional names for the list:

And possibly
 * (only 1 non-deleted edit)

I also found 3 likely IP addresses, all from the same university that a few of the editors above mention on their user pages. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  07:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * davidwr, thank you for your work on all of this. I've looked at the discussion in your user space. At this stage, it seems to me to matter whether this is some sort of class exercise, as advertized, or some sort of paid advocacy masquerading as a class. In the US where I am, it would be unusual to have students from multiple institutions in the same class, and it seems clear that the editors are indeed describing themselves as coming from a bunch of different educational institutions. If it's really a class, we need to identify the offering institution and find some way to communicate with the instructor. If instead this is a commercial enterprise masquerading as a nonexistent class, then we may want to treat the whole thing as meatpuppetry. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree wholeheartedly. When I say I am willing to continue assuming good faith, I mean it.  But that stops pretty much as soon as either we formally (and in a somewhat organized, planned way) notify these users of what we have observed and ask for their cooperation and do not get it.  I think it goes without saying that we all are hoping that this is just what it appears to be and that all editors, once notified in a formal way that there is a problem and we are here to help them edit in a problem-free way, will accept our help and turn into model editors, or at least, productive editors who know the rules as much as any novice editor is expected to know them and who make every effort to follow them.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  17:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Request for centralized discussion

 * No, not WP:CENT

There are two discussions going on, the one here and the one at User:Davidwr/Tsinghua/User talk:Davidwr/Tsinghua. Unless there is a good reason not to (e.g. "we do things differently in WP:Education" or "that would break something"), I recommend MOVING and its talk page to the to Education noticeboard/Incidents/ChinaDec2013 and its talk page, then copy/pasting this section to the end of the talk page so we have everything in one place (as a bonus, the pages currently in my userspace will come under WP:Education purview rather than mine). Before making the move/merge I want to allow for a day or so to ask for objections and/or garner support, as well as suggestions for a better sub-page name. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  17:28, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't feel strongly about where to do it, and it's not yet clear to me that this is an Education issue, as opposed to garden variety meatpuppetry. I think two things ought to happen first: a case at WP:SPI, to clarify the extent to which edits are, or are not, coming from the geographic area of a particular campus, and an attempt to identify and communicate with the course instructor. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:58, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * IMO, a procedural CU  is most  certainly  required. Attempts should be made to  engage the editors in  communicating  with  us. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:52, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Which do you recommend first, user engagement or the checkuser. The checkuser is likely to be perceived as WP:BITEy, but there may be reasons I'm not aware of that it should be done first.  If the checkuser should be done first, go ahead and start it.  The oldest account is MeganKing.  and  have already endorsed using a checkuser.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  23:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd say do both simultaneously. The user engagement is already starting, and I don't think that it is unduly bitey, especially since the student editors need not be consulted about the SPI. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Every one of the 60 or so articles has now either been PRODed (mostly today), or at  AfD, or have already  been speedied or deleted at  already  closed AfDs. Which  means that  the concerned editors have seen or will  the feedback  in the form  of the deletion notices on  their talk  pages as soon  as they  return to  their university  computers. I  suggest waiting on  an SPI now until  after the holiday  break which  will  roughly  be coterminus with  the expiry  of the PRODs and the current  AfDs, and evaluating  any  user response, if any. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, a couple of days ago I told the student who contacted me that it would be helpful if she would tell me the name of the course, and ask the course instructor to come to Wikipedia. She has not yet done any of those things, but she has made subsequent edits, which strikes me as circumstantial evidence to wonder if there really is a class, as opposed to a PR firm. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Possible, but I've known students to come back from break early to work on multi-semester projects, and I've known professors who were so busy they couldn't possibly keep up with all of the requests their students make of them. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  02:20, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Two editors are back
Two editors returned on December 31 and collaborated on a new article, Fidelity Southern Corporation. This one might actually survive the process, as it is about a regional bank in the United States. I put a note on each of their talk pages encouraging them to suspend creating new articles, see User talk:ChaiYidong and User talk:ReganChai. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  07:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Due to the timing  of their edits and the similarity  in  their names, I'm  concerned that  this may  be the same editor. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Add another user to  the SPI  list. These diffs were only  7  minutes apart. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:23, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Those two users have been on the list since day one. That page was added to the list a couple of hours before you spotted it, along with Peoples Financial and CAMCO FINANCIAL.  I also added 16 on the 1st.
 * Also, you said "SPI" list. Is there an active WP:SPI? I'm concerned that an SPI/checkuser won't tell us anything we don't already know, namely: 1) all editors edit with a similar pattern, and 2) all or almost all editors edit from a small number of institutions (I can count at least 2 in one city and 1 in another).  All of these things are consistent with the editors being who they claim to be - students working on a project.  A checkuser WOULD tell us if they are outright lying in certain ways (e.g. if they are NOT from the cities they claim to be from) and it MIGHT reveal other related accounts if the checkusers were willing to go on a witch hunt to scrutinize all newly-created (since October) accounts from those IP address ranges, which I very much doubt they would do.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  17:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to sound like I'm "answering" for Kudpung, but here is my own take on that. It sounds to me like Kudpung suspects that those two accounts are a single person using two accounts to edit together, which if true would be a clear violation of WP:SOCK, and would justify an SPI check. Other than that, some of my own interest in SPI dates from a few days ago (ancient history!), when we were still trying to make sense of a "class" that seems to be coming from multiple educational institutions. I know that you have pointed out that such a class is possible, but I still harbor a suspicion that it sounds dubious and more consistent with some sort of PR that recruits students from multiple schools to do its work. Anyway, given that most of the bad content is getting close to having been deleted, much of what I just said becomes much less pressing, even moot. I'd be inclined to pursue SPI if, hypothetically, the students come back and start undoing the deletion work that Kudpung et al. have been doing, but if the deletions just stand, then we may be able to move on. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:28, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * One of the "problems" with a scenario like the one we are dealing with is that as long as the editors behave in a way that is consistent with what they say they are doing, there is no way to know if they are telling the truth or blowing smoke up our collective rear ends. In my mind, WP:AGF needs to hold until either they stop being consistent (WP:ROPE) or, once notified that there is an issue (many if not all accounts have been notified by means other than mere deletion-notification-templates) they continue to repeat the behavior.  The latter standard - stopping behavior once you've been told there is a problem - is the same standard I would hold a single editor operating from a single account to if he created more than a few similar articles with similar notability issues.  If this is a group of PR editors, I would expect them to quiet down for at least a few months.  If they do, it would be worth spot-checking every few months for new articles that use some of the phrases common to the articles that these editors created but not otherwise common in Wikipedia.
 * By the way, the thought that I could be on the wrong end of a big lie has been in the back of my mind since this all started. However, it is better for the project in the long run to assume good faith in the early stages:  If they are telling the truth and we block all but one account straight off, we've just alienated people who are obviously interested in taking the time to edit, and probably 2 or 3 or maybe more will become good, long-term members of the community.  If they are lying and we assume good faith, we are delaying the cleanup by a few weeks and creating more work for ourselves in the short run, but on the bright side we may wind up with some short, cleaned-up articles about notable companies that until recently didn't have articles or had sub-par articles (e.g. the existing article that was history-merged into what is now TXI was inferior to this group's newly-written article). davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  03:54, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * No argument from me, on any of that! And, given the contact with the faculty now, all of this, including any SPI, has become moot. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:28, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * No argument from me, on any of that! And, given the contact with the faculty now, all of this, including any SPI, has become moot. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:28, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Another one
I just deleted an article by, appears to be the same profile. ~Amatulić (talk) 05:50, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I've added this person and the articles created by this account to User:Davidwr/Tsinghua. Some of these companies have been around long enough or have revenues high enough that there is more than a small chance that they meet WP:Notability.  Please at least do a Google Books search before prodding or afd'ing.  Another "trick" to find old newspaper articles is to do a Google web search but limit the date to things dated before about 2000 or so.  A company with more than a few old-news "hits" has a decent chance of meeting WP:Notability.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  19:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

doubts
This does not at first appear to make sense as an education project--why should they pick US organizations when there are so man notable companies in China that need articles? On the other hand, it does not seem like a ring of paid editors--the subjects are some of them notable and are distributed in special areas, and the articles do not show some of the usual characteristic signs of paid editing, such as a desperate search for any possible references. They do seem however to be a ring of some sort, writing according to a formula. The overall writing seems to reflect an inexpert grasp of both English and WP, though not a total lack of knowledge.. Many of the article are about NYSE companies, and I consider them  worth rescuing and am rewriting them. The others may not be worth the trouble,  DGG ( talk ) 10:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * What keeps seeming odd to me is how this "class project" is coming, according to what the students themselves have said, from multiple educational institutions. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:28, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * At least some claim to be graduate students. I can't speak for China but I have known of cross-institution projects at that level in the United States.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  19:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Duly noted, thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Two more editors
I found two more accounts dating from early November, and. I've added them and the articles they created to User:Davidwr/Tsinghua. At least 1 of the 9 articles they created is almost certainly notable. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  20:42, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

assisting the user(s)
I have left some extended comments at User talk:Blueena  DGG ( talk ) 00:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Three more articles
I missed 3 articles created by this team when I put the list at User:Davidwr/Tsinghua together earlier. This is now fixed. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  02:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Sponsoring professor is out of Toronto
[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Whisoseryus&diff=prev&oldid=588918108 This edit] on User talk:Whisoseryus (one of the student-editors involved in this) says that Ling Cen, an assistant professor at the University of Toronto, is the sponsoring professor and that he is working with students in China. I take this claim to be credible unless proven otherwise. There are 2 or 3 Special:CampusVolunteers in Toronto, perhaps one of them would be interested in helping out? ,, , I'm hoping one of you three sees this even though none of you have edited in the last few months. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  05:18, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's right. The discussion at User talk:Whisoseryus indicates that Assistant Professor Ling Cen at the University of Toronto is running the project in collaboration with Prof. Sean Xu at Tsinghua University. It sounds like they started out with some misunderstanding of WP:NOT, but that all of it is on the up-and-up. They seem quite willing to cooperate, and apparently are working on setting up a course page here. I'm pretty sure, and pleasantly relieved, to conclude that we can safely AGF this one. As davidwr just said, if there are some Toronto-area volunteers who can help, that would move things along. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:35, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The regional ambassadors (User:Jaobar and I) will be contacting the prof. OhanaUnitedTalk page 23:59, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

One more article
Hudson Technologies Inc, which I prodded already. I think we are at over 90 articles now. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  05:51, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have requested that this editor not create new similar articles until this situation is resolved, see User talk:Laphere. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  06:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

One more editor, one more article, one editor back from break
I found and his article, Mitek Systems Inc.. Both are now listed at User:Davidwr/Tsinghua. has also returned to editing after a short break. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  00:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The article is related to this group of editors but is not.  I have updated User:Davidwr/Tsinghua accordingly.  See [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKudpung&diff=591774685&oldid=591551713#Mitek_Systems_Inc. Kudpung's talk page] and this LinkedIn profile.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  01:38, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Any update on contact with the professor(s)?
Does anyone have any updates on efforts to talk to the professor(s) and help the students become better editors, particularly with respect to the items covered in WP:42? davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  00:08, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi davidwr: A course page has been added (User:Uttsinghuajoint2014/Course_Page), explaining the tasks that students have done, which have been solely for educational purposes. Please let me know if you need me to provide any additional information. --- Uttsinghuajoint2014 (talk) 09:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Uttsinghuajoint2014/Course_Page
Copied from User:Davidwr/Tsinghua:

Please read User:Uttsinghuajoint2014/Course Page and a thread he opened on my talk page: User talk:Davidwr/Archives/Archive 16. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  05:59, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that Davidwr makes some very good points on his talk page, and I want to ping the ambassadors, User:Jaobar and User:OhanaUnited, to make sure they know about what he said, so they can help the instructor understand. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:52, 17 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Copied from User talk:Davidwr/Tsinghua User talk:Davidwr/Archives/Archive 16 has been updated with a comment by one of the professors and my reply. One key point in my reply is that even among experienced editors, there is disagreement on whether being listed by the NYSE means that a company meets Notability.  If this lack of consensus becomes a serious issue that starts affecting the whole project in a big way, then an RFC should be opened at WP:WikiProject Business or as a centralized discussion.  However, as long as it's the hopefully-small fraction of  these 90-odd articles that "would fail WP:Notability but for their presence on the NYSE," I think we can handle them on a case-by-case basis on the article's talk pages and/or at AFD should they be nominated for deletion.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  02:51, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

A Course Page Has Been Created
Dear Editors: A course page has been added (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Uttsinghuajoint2014/Course_Page), explaining the tasks that students have done, which have been solely for educational purposes. You can find information about the course (including contact of instructors) on the course page. We are grateful to your supporting our educational activity. When we asked students to start their term project, we paid particular attention to creating entries for firms with notability. Firms listed on major stock exchanges should be notable since they have already passed the requirements of listing as required by the US SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) (http://usequities.nyx.com/regulation/listed-companies-compliance/listings-standards/us) including size and liquidity. In particular, a listed firm 1) has notable public signals in the financial market, including stock prices and trading volumes; 2) discloses notable public information required by the US SEC; and 3) has at least a substantial number of public shareholders according to the SEC rules and once the stock is held by a fund, the number of people interested in this company will grow exponentially. So for those listed firms, there are a guaranteed big number of notable investors that pay attention to this stock. Uttsinghuajoint2014 (talk) 12:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Tracking down a class project re: fishes
See my message at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fishes. Another clue this is a class project:. Overall these are good articles that are being created, but they have common problems (essay content re: management recommendations) and there are a lot of these articles. It appears that this has been an assignment at least twice, because I have seen expansions that have occurred in 2010 and expansions that have occurred in 2012. I think it might be worth looking more closely at these articles to see if we can identify the instructor, so that we can contact him/her and provide guidance to make these articles better in the future. Any thoughts? I haven't done too much sleuthing yet. Calliopejen1 (talk) 01:13, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If some of the student editors are still around, you can leave Template:Welcome student on their talk pages. It's more than just a welcome, and it may help in identifying who the instructor is. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:57, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * All of the ones I've seen so far are long gone, but I'll keep that in mind in case anyone has edited semi-recently. Calliopejen1 (talk) 02:21, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I just came across User:Sclemm/Fishes of Tennessee. Could someone more involved in the education project contact Sharon Clemmensen or Darrin Hulsey to discuss? The most important thing would be to emphasize that original ideas about management are not appropriate for Wikipedia. It would also be great to have a list of articles created so far (the Sclemm page is not up to date), and for them to use the course extension in the future so we can track similar articles. Thanks, Calliopejen1 (talk) 00:30, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It also looks like some of this was communicated to Sharon previously, but no changes were made in terms of what the students were assigned to do. (The same recommendations for management sections are present in even the 2013 articles that were added.)  See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fishes/Archive_3 and Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive728 for previous discussion. Calliopejen1 (talk) 00:34, 26 February 2014 (UTC)