Wikipedia:Featured and good topic candidates/BBC Sports Personality of the Year/archive1

BBC Sports Personality of the Year
I've been working on this for a while now, and every award list is now an FL, with the exception of one that is too short. I think this meets the FT criteria. Rambo's Revenge (talk)  10:06, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 *  Oppose  - sorry, but I think this is a needless over-split from a more general topic on BBC Sports Personality of the Year. All you'd need to add to convert it from one to the other is the BBC Sports Personality of the Year article. Unrelatedly I also oppose because of the lack of BBC Northern Ireland Sports Personality of the Year, BBC Scotland Sports Personality of the Year and BBC Wales Sports Personality of the Year, which are not (IIRC?) presented as part of the main ceremony but are still part of the family of awards and hence deserve inclusion - rst20xx (talk) 10:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that the article on the award ceremony should be included, so i oppose for that reason. But the Scottish, Welsh, Irish awards are awarded by the separate regional BBCs i think, so it could be argued that they are entirely separate. The main BBC gives them to all British nationalities, the regional awards have a similar name but are not part of the family. Or are they all awarded by the BBC, and the names just refer to who can win them? If that were the case, why no English award?YobMod 12:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I can see this isn't going to pass, but I don't actually see where it fails the criteria, as there is a well defined scope, and I don't think it is cherry picking, but seeing as there is only one other article I guess it is doable. I guess that there isn't an BBC England Sports Personality of the Year one because there are effectively twelve of them. Northern Ireland and Scotland are not subdivided into further BBC regions, so each local region (be it BBC Scotland or BBC North East) has its own awards. I'd argue "BBC Scottish Sports Personality of the Year" is parallel to "BBC South West Sports Awards" and don't merit inclusion in the topic. Assuming that I only have one article to improve, can I just untransclude this nomination and then put it back when that article is at GA, or does it need to be a fresh nom? Rambo's Revenge (talk)  13:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * OK feel free to untransclude. But it might be worth discussing the Scotland/Wales/NI thing a bit more now. Granted they are awarded by the regional bodies but this is still part of the BBC. I would like them included. Though this is more of a minor oppose than the other one so I dunno, maybe I'll let it slide if you get the main article up to speed. Looking at the regions, are those awards equally notable to the 3 country ones? Are they also notable enough to merit articles? Hmmm - rst20xx (talk) 14:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay the List of BBC Sports Personality of the Year awards was merged with BBC Sports Personality of the Year to make a overall new BBC Sports Personality of the Year page. The merge was suggested by Oldelpaso when peer reviewing the old BBC Sports Personality of the Year page. Discussion followed, and consensus for a merge formed here. I have performed the merge, and the resulting page was copyedited and underwent a featured review which was "kept" earlier today.

As such I have moved this topic from "BBC Sports Personality of the Year awards" to "BBC Sports Personality of the Year". Now things that might affect this nomination. As of Monday night I will be off-wiki for three weeks (maybe more). I'm not expecting a consensus to form on this in that time, but I already had all the FTC templates on the talk page's and figured there was a fair chance this might be successful anyway so I'm planning on just retranscluding this nomination. Personally I don't think this topic should be opposed for not including the 3 country region ones, because as I said they are analogous to the 12 English Region ones (which don't have pages). For example, the Northern Ireland one is run by BBC Radio Foyle. All comments welcome, but I won't be around to respond to later comments. Rambo's Revenge (talk)  19:26, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I'm going to continue to oppose because I think a topic called "BBC Sports Personality of the Year" should include all articles on the BBC Sports Personality of the Year Awards, which this doesn't, because it's missing the Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland Award articles. Granted, the national awards are presented separately, and by separate branches within the BBC, but they are still BBC Sports Personality of the Year Awards. I don't know whether the English regions also deserve lists, but I think it may be possible to argue that they are less notable than the Scotland/Wales/NI awards because, whilst the English regions are at the same level within the structure of the BBC as Scotland/Wales/NI are (I think...), they are not as notable as entities as Scotland/Wales/NI are. Sorry - rst20xx (talk) 23:54, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just as a response it does definately seem to be treated as a BBC region (as in my example with BBC Foyle for NI above) and not a national award. e.g. this BBC article calls it "BBC Scotland's Sports Personality of the Year", and you seem to agree that they rank the same as a regional Sports Personality award. BBC Wales does keep a list of old winners however in my searching Scotland and NI do not seem to (at least online anyway). I would have thought that the notability would also be similar but agree that having a country name does automatically make it sound more important even if it isn't. Hopefully the community will provide more comments on this. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b>  <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  20:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In fact in attempting to expand the Scotland list, I ran across some more problems: in Scotland the Sunday Mail has it's own national awards which include a "Sports Personality of the Year" (but unrelated to the BBC) and these seem to be documented online more than the BBC Scotland award. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  20:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, here is the best evidence I'll probably get. As mentioned above Wales had its own list, but the most recent awards page (2008) explicitly states "The BBC Wales Sports Personality 2008 award is not connected with the UK BBC Sports Personality of the Year." <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  21:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Support - I was saying I thought S/W/NI are more important than the regions, because while they are at the same level structurally within the BBC as the regions, they are more important generally and hence probably more notable. Having said that, if you can't even find sources for the Scotland and NI lists, maybe I am wrong in my thinking. It appears the original lists (which are incomplete, unless NI only goes back to 2003) were pieced together by different editors. Given that you can't even source them, I now think the lists are less notable than I used to, so I'm going to strike my oppose - rst20xx (talk) 21:46, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe my time watching in England biased me, but i agree with the nom that the regional awards are not needed, and that includes the country awards, as they are a different level of award that happens to have the same name. But their inclusion would make the topic even better, so i  weak support. Later: struck weak based on primary source saying they are not connected. Yob  Mod  07:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support Rambo's proof is enough for me. Nice job. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Close with consensus to promote - rst20xx (talk) 14:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)