Wikipedia:Featured and good topic candidates/Notes on a Conditional Form/archive1

Notes on a Conditional Form
I am nominating the album Notes on a Conditional Form by the 1975 to become a good topic. The album, its singles and its songs have all been brought to Good Article status over the past year. Thank you to all the dedicated Wikipedians who helped review the album and its songs: Bilorv (who also brought "The 1975" to GA status), K. Peake, SNUGGUMS and HĐ! Representing the final chapter in the band's Music For Cars era, the lengthy experimental album blends orchestral pieces with electronic instrumental tracks and traditionally-structured songs. This magpie approach polarised critics; some viewed it as the 1975's masterpiece, while others found it too unfocused. Despite the strong reactions, the album was included on numerous year-end lists.


 * Contributor(s): Giacobbe and Bilorv


 * Comments Support: There are a number of articles in this topic where chart positions need to be written out in the body since they are mentioned in the lead, also make sure refs are always in numerical order but in general, these articles are highly detailed with a heavy amount of work put in and I feel so proud to have been among the reviewers! --K. Peake 16:36, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I've gone through and added chart positions within the prose. Thank you for all your support!  Gia co bbe  talk 18:17, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for getting to work on it, but you missed "The Birthday Party" and the refs need to be ordered as requested. --K. Peake 18:36, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Whoops, forgot about "The Birthday Party", good catch! Regarding the order of the refs, is that more personal preference or is there a GA criteria that I've missed? As far as I can tell from this, "Mistakes to avoid" includes: "Requiring that footnotes be listed in numeric order, if multiple citations are named after a sentence."  Gia co bbe  talk 19:12, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * (Slightly involved) support: I got the opening track to GA and reviewed two of these GAs. I have quite a lot of subject knowledge in this area (an attempt to make "I'm a fan of the band" sound more impressive) and it does look like all of the notable songs from the album are included, and that all of the GAs are up to scratch. There should be a space before and after the slash in "Nothing Revealed / Everything Denied". — Bilorv ( talk ) 17:29, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the support and your contributions to the topic!  Gia co bbe  talk 18:17, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Comments - So I took a closer look at these articles, including the album and some sources draw my attention, and despite being well-written I have to point out some issues with a couple of said sources. The first is BrooklynVegan, which is across every article, but "Jesus Christ 2005 God Bless America" and "Guys", as the editor chief seems to have no experience as a journalist he has been loving the subject for a long time.Moreover, Cosmopolition has been considered a perennial source, per Reliable sources/Perennial sources, so that needs to be changed. There is a source "Euphoria" that I'm not 100% ure about they have interviwed well known artists, however anyone can join their team...they work for free. Perhaps only the interviews would be reliable and not the reviews as seen on "Guys", "People", "Frail State of Mind", "The Birthday Party", "Jesus Christ 2005 God Bless America" and "Me & You Together Song". On the latter article, the Far Out Magazine needs to be removed (anyone can writer for them) and the Sputnik review is not acceptable, it was written by a member of the forum.


 * On the "The Birthday Party" there is uDiscover Music (affiliated with Universal Music), see this discussion click here, Our Culture Mag has raised some eyebrows regarding its editor. On "Frail State of Mind" the presence of Affinity Magazine is concernign as it is a magazine written by teenagers and its editor is also someone who is finishig highschool. Remove "talon" source since they claim "the majority of our staffers are either journalism or public relations majors", so any student can join them. Finnaly, on the album article, Yardbarker needs author, Far Out Magazine needs to be replaced. Soundazed and 411Mania are unreliable sources, with the latter being a blog. Banquet Records is a retalire I would't use for anything but release dates. Finally, I also advise you to change "the1975.com-> the1975 website" on the several instances it was used, on "If You're Too Shy (Let Me Know)" missing spin magazine as work on 30 best songs of 2020, and "RockCellar -> Rock Cellar" on "Tonight (I Wish I Was Your Boy)".
 * Thank you for the comments. I've removed Affinity, Talon and Our Culture, and fixed the links for YardBarker and Spin. Just going to be straight up and say I'm not going to remove BrooklynVegan, not sure where you got "loving the subject for a long time", but the organization's been around nearly 20 years, has a well documented editorial oversight team, and has been referenced by numerous other publications ranging from Rolling Stone, Hyperallergic, PopMatters, Under the Radar and a variety of others. Don't see any place where it wouldn't pass WP:RS. For Far Out, I think you might be mistaking the internship application page for meaning "anyone can write for them". Additionally, both Soundazed and Euphoria Magazine have editorial oversight and pass WP:RS. In terms of uDiscover, I read the discussion when getting "The Birthday Party" passed, and saw the consensus being "use sparingly". As its use in the aforementioned article is to provide background on the making of the music video—and not commentary—I believe it follows this consensus.  Gia co bbe  talk 22:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Regarding Udiscover music, I believe you are right it's only describing how they created the music video. On BrooklynVegan, having a document team its the first step, the second is if that team has any journalistic backgroud. Its a blog, secondly its editors (Andrew Sacher and Bill Pearis) have only worked for the blog. Can you provide those references? I can't seem to find them online and if it turns out to be true I won't fight you on that. "Far Out Magazine", in their job aplication wheter is internehip or not they don't make a reference to any journalist background. What other proves do you want? On Euphoria, so yes anyone can write for them, simply apply, you can even choose what you want to write about. Soundazed editoral team is compressed only lists their founder on the website Matt Torres who has a bacherol's degree on political science according to his linkdln profile, that's not the same as journalism. There are still issues with 411Mania and Banquet Records. I will strike out stuff as we progress. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 00:04, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you point me to where in WP:RS it says a degree in journalism is required for this step?  Gia co bbe  talk 00:55, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It doesn't say, but we need some sort of background to claim if a source is or not reliable. Consider this when figuring out whether or not a source is reliable/usable Wikipedia:

Let's go trougought each source
 * 1) Is there an editorial staff?
 * 2) Is there editorial policy and editorial oversight?
 * 3) Are the editors writers with actual credentials? Do they have experience writing for other reliable publications? College degrees in relevant areas? Or does their expertise revolve around a fan or interest in the subject?


 * 411mania: "Our writers and contributors are not paid staff members or employees, they are independent bloggers." See 1
 * While the site does not have paid staff members, its articles are written by independent journalists. Editorial oversight is conducted by the site owner and its Head Site Editor, Jeremy Thomas, who has written for other publications such as The Hollywood Reporter. The article itself was written by David Hayter, a freelance journalist who attended the London School of Journalism and has previously written for Guitar Planet, the Evening Standard, Sony Music Entertainment, and worked at The Guardian where he analyzed and reviewed singles and trends alongside award-winning journalist Alexis Petridis.  Gia co bbe  talk 14:00, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Mucrack is not reliable, if you find the article(s) he wrote I would like to see it. I dugged deeper into David Hayter, The guardian says this Every week we invite a reader to share with us some of the songs they've been listening to recently, reader is diferent from journalist. Sony Music? You mean a label, really? Doesn't get more bias than that. Lindkin is not reliable, good for finding stuff (like a seach engine) you need to back that stuff up with reliable sources, in this case the articles.


 * Banquet Records: Retailer like I have mentioned, "Banquet is an independent record shop in Kingston, just on the outskirts of London. We're a real record shop run by real people. Our mail order is a big part of what we do, as we send out thousands of mail order packages a month. But we are and always will be, a real record shop on the High Street, or in our case, Eden Street. " See 2
 * Banquet Records, described by Music Week as a part of Kingston's musical legacy, has an important place among the indie music scene in the UK (which the 1975 are themselves a part of). The magazine wrote an op-ed calling it “a thriving part of the Kingston community”. In their op-ed about the store, Huck said: "Sometimes a shop is not really a shop. Sometimes a shop is the heart of a local scene, without which an entire subculture would be lost." Here is The Guardians dedicated article about the record shop, in which they wrote: "For independent record shops, each passing week is like the Grand National for horses: some will shit themselves, a few will die, and most will have their arses whipped. But Banquet Records in Kingston upon Thames needs its nosebag testing for amphetamines." The Line of Best Fit even wrote an entire article about how the shop was temporarily closing, helping to demonstrate its importance. Recognizing the unique importance of Banquet Records and its impact on the UK indie music scene, Metacritic—which Wikipedia near-unanimously relies upon to determine critical consensus of albums—feels it's appropriate to include "prominent music stores, websites, and publications" on their year-end lists, and has included Banquet Records since 2016 (2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and best of the decade). Banquet's inclusion in the album article is their ranking of the year's best records. In terms of WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, given Banquet's notoriety—as a record store and pillar of the UK indie music scene—I believe its inclusion is warranted in an article about a record from a UK indie music act.  Gia co bbe ' talk 14:00, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * So Banquet records its a store, a retalier...like amazon, ebay and so on...that just shows its a store. Their staff are not critics, journalists and so on, just people who like music. You have a lot of lists from other publications more respectable. All those sources you pointed out shows it is a music store like many others. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 14:11, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't see Metacritic including reviews from Amazon, Ebay, and so on, unless I've missed something? Yet they do for Banquet. Clearly, their opinion holds importance.  Gia co bbe  talk 14:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * BrooklynVegan: Thre is editoral staff, the editors and contributers have only worked for said magazine and their founder, Dave is quite hard to find online. You have yet to provide their mentions on Rolling Stone, Pop Matters and others.
 * Their editoral staff? You mean and now runs mailorder and https://www.banquetrecords.com/banquet-staff/joe/joeconnor Joe works in mail order and is our in-house sound engineer]], among others. Sorry but they don't come across as critics of any sort. They work in the shop and they enjoy music, thats it. If you work at a clothing store doesn't make you a critic of clothing. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 11:43, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Apologies for the delay, I'm in the midst of finals. Anyways, let’s start with BrooklynVegan! Metacritic has included BrooklynVegan on their year-end list since 2018 (2019, 2020, and best of the decade). Here is Dazed including BrooklynVegan among the likes of Stereogum and The A.V. Club while referencing a story they reported on, here is Refinery29 comparing BrooklynVegan to Pitchfork while calling it “the best resource for local concerts, as well as new music in general”, and another one by Stereogum calling it the best music blog (other than itself), while also referencing the site here and here and here and here, here, here, here (there are many more, but I feel like you get the jest). In addition to calling them "the de facto media hub for the indie scene", Rolling Stone references their reporting here, and then they do it again, and again and again and again and again and again and again. I could keep going (for good measure, here’s some from Billboard: here, here, and here; a couple from Under the Radar here, here, and here; and I'll throw in some from The New York Times here, here, and here) but I feel like I've made my point. Now, let's discuss the writer of the BV articles used in the topic (I believe it's just Andrew Sacher, but correct me if I’m mistaken). After graduating from the State University of New York with a degree in Arts Management and Literature (seems like a pretty good qualification to discuss music and the arts as a career), he's had 10 years of experience working as a music editor for BV and has been included by Uproxx as part of their Critics' Choice Poll since 2018. You might not be finding much information about Dave Levine, since according to a New York article about him, the man is reluctant to even disclose his last name. Wouldn't expect to find out much about a man that doesn't like the spotlight.  Gia co bbe  talk 22:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Its fine, focus on your finals and good luck with those. BrooklynVegan seems fine. Honestly I'm going to try to add it to the reliable sources using the articles you mentioned, if that's ok with you. There is stil 411 mania, Soundazed and Banquet Records issues to address. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 10:07, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the encouragement! As for adding BV to the reliable sources, I have no problem with you using this!  Gia co bbe  talk 14:00, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Far Out Magazine: I digged into the profiles of most of thei staff and they seem to have written for either other magazines or have a degree on journalism. They seem to be a reliable source.
 * Euphoria: I took a closer look at the writers on the website and they have either written for other magazies such as coup de main, the line of the best fit, past magazine...and one of them is taking a degree on litterature as of right now, as well as degrees in music journalism. So it is a pass, using the creteria above.
 * Soundazed: Its founder and editor Matt Torres is responsible for most articles on the website. He has never written for other publications, a bacherol's degree on political science according to his linkdln profile so it is not on the same page as a relevant area for covering music topics. He also has a second job, so the editor and founder doesn't even focus his profession on writing or editing, I don't think this is a well-represented organization. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 11:48, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Removed.  Gia co bbe  talk 14:00, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Good job! MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 14:27, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Barricade magazine seems fine, its director and founder has some background on music journalism and has written for paper magazine. Sorry if this can come across as annoying, but it is for the best, you can replace the unreliable sources per others that have the same information. Let me know once you have addressed this issues. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:37, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * What exactly do you mean by "Cosmopolition has been considered a perennial source... so that needs to be changed"? "Perennial" just means "frequently occurring". There is consensus that the source's reliability is context-dependent, but it seems to me that there are no reasonable doubts that (a) any interviews Cosmopolitan does are genuine, not fabricated; and that (b) the opinions of its music reviewers are significant. So I wouldn't change any uses of the source on this music-based topic (unless it's being used as the only source for controversial facts somewhere). — Bilorv ( talk ) 18:43, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not an interview, anyway disgard the comment about cospomolitan...address everything else. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:54, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Support: I added a link to the first occurrence of "Tonight (I Wish I Was Your Boy)" in the main article. It's got the album and all the singles and other notable tracks at GA, and there doesn't appear to be a tour, video, or other related topic that ought to be here, and it's all joined by the band's navbox and various supercategories. Seems to tick all the boxes! -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 20:52, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the support! I appreciate you linking the song  Gia co bbe  talk 21:07, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Support looks complete to me with the parent album and each song article all being GA-level. A job very well done, and I must tip my hat to you for your dedicated efforts on the band's pages (including those out of this topic scope)! SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 23:57, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the continued support, and your review of "Jesus Christ 2005...", !  Gia co bbe  talk 15:11, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Support - It is great to see stellar-quality music content again, in a time where the bar has been lowered so much. A really great, well-researched set of connected articles.--NØ 15:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the kind words and show of support, !  Gia co bbe  talk 15:12, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Another Comment I also noticed that WP:Sample is not respected in some instances. On "Tonight (I Wish I Was Your Boy)" the lenght is 26 seconds for a song that has 4:07 of lenght, the maximum allowed is 24 seconds. On the article "Notes on a Conditional Form", the sample of "What Should I Say" should have a maximum of 24 seconds, on the same article the sample of "Roadkill" should have a maximum of 17 seconds. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 21:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * "Tonight (I Wish I Was Your Boy)" has a length of 247 seconds, 10% of which equates to 24.7 seconds (automatically rounds to 25), so I'll trim off accordingly.
 * "What Should I Say" has a length of 246 seconds, 10% of which equates to 24.6 seconds (automatically rounds to 25), so I'll trim off accordingly.
 * "Roadkill" has a length of 175 seconds, 10% of which equates to 17.5 seconds (automatically rounds to 18), so there's no need to change.  Gia co bbe  talk 18:07, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * In this case, it's better to round down because that won't exceed 10% of a song's duration. One should avoid having overly long samples whenever possible. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:35, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The sample does not exceed 10% of the duration. 17.5 seconds is the allowable sample, which it is. Should someone download it for any reason, that is what they would see. Could clarify that in its fair use rationale, though.  Gia co bbe  talk 20:06, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I do agree with SNUGGUMS on this one, better not to exceed, even if its 0.5 seconds. Let me know once you address this issue and the ones above regarding the websites, there are still two concerning. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:40, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the point is that it's not exceeding 10% by 0.5 seconds—the file is 17.5 seconds (10% dead on) but this is displayed within our internal pages as "18 seconds" (as that's the correct rounding to the nearest integer). But the audio itself (which is what the criterion applies to) is not more than 10% of the song length. — Bilorv ( talk ) 19:48, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you,, that is what I was trying to express.  Gia co bbe  talk 20:46, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Have you addressed the samples reduction and the sources (411 mania and Banquet Records)? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 09:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have.  Gia co bbe  talk 11:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Support Since you seem to have address all my concerns. Nicely done. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 07:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you,, for the support!  Gia co bbe  talk 15:29, 11 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Closed with a consensus to promote to Good Topic - GamerPro64  00:35, 16 May 2021 (UTC)