Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/École Polytechnique massacre


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 04:21, 5 May 2007.

École Polytechnique massacre
I have been following the progress on this article for some time, after I was asked for my help during a bit of an edit war in December. My personal contributions to this article are relatively minor, but a few editors have worked a great deal to make it an informative, balanced account of the events. I am greatly impressed by the research, thoughfullness and debate that has gone into this article's creation, as well as intrigued by the article's topic. It is well-referenced (not an simple task, as many of the original sources are in French), it has informative and attractive photographs and it addresses the facts of the event, as well as its interpretations, in an even-handed and encyclopedic style. It is a solid article created by deep collaboration about a significant subject and I believe that that makes it a good candidate for a featured article. I know that the primary contributors would be happy to receive and respond to any feedback about how to achieve that status. Dina 00:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment lead does not summarize the article's main topics adequately, needs expanding. A bit listy.Rlevse 13:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Can I ask you to clarify what you mean by "listy"? I understand that to mean that it contains too many lists? The only list in the article is the list of the women who died as a result of the massacre.  The content, style and inclusion of this list was the result of some debate and therefore may include some compromises.  However, it's unclear to me how else to include this information, and I do believe that a truly comprehensive article on the subject requires it.  The only other method I have seen has been the creation of a fork article called something like "List of victims of..." which I don't think is necessary here as there are only 14 names on the list. Dina 16:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Support: The criteria state that a Featured Article should be 1. "well written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and stable"; 2. "complies with the Manual of Style and relevant WikiProjects"; 3. appropriate images appropriately labeled; 4. length and focus. I think that this article meets all the criteria. It is excellent: clear and balanced, with an appropriate number of relevant links. It cannot have been easy to craft an article on such a fraught topic; congratulations to the editors involved. — scribbling  woman  16:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This article has a lot of French in it for English Wikipedia, like under the various images, that isn't translated. I know some that I can translate some myself, but this is ENGLISH Wikipedia, and should have English translations if not entirely in English. Remember, this article is read by a global audience. GreenJoe 18:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The article now meets with my standards, and I support. GreenJoe 19:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I just saw your edit and I believe it is based on a misunderstanding. The original caption was "Place du 6-Décembre-1989" which is the name of the park dedicated to the victims. In English, basically it means "Place of December 6 1989".   Your translation "Place on December 6 1989" is inaccurate, as that implies that the photo was taken on that date, which it was not.  Perhaps a translation of the title of the park should be included in the caption, but I believe it is generally in line with Wikipedia guidelines to call "works of art" by their most commonly used names, which in this case is French.  However a bracketed translation can easily be included in the caption.  Is there any other untranslated French that you could specify?  Cheers. Dina 18:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's that kind of misunderstanding that makes it difficult to support this article. It needs to be explained better in the article. There's another image further down with a similar situation. You need to go through this with a fine tooth comb and make sure there are no stray, unexplained French that non-French people wouldn't understand. GreenJoe 18:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Clarification request: Re. the captions: the name of the school (École Polytechnique) is in French, and the name of a park (Place du 6-Décembre-1989). The only other French in the captions is the name of a memorial ("Nef pour quatorze reines, detail"), and that is translated in the text, nearby. I imagine the editors could translate the phrase in the caption, too, if it is felt to be necessary. Other than that, the captions are all in English. The only French in the article itself are proper names: again, the name of the school, the name of a newspaper, the name of a church, the name of a city borough, and many of the names of the people involved. Those that are not individual names are linked to English-language wiki articles, and in the two cases they are not -- both memorials of the massacre -- there are images nearby. The only French language in the entire article that is not a proper name is the phrase cause célèbre -- a phrase that is commonly used by English speakers -- and it is also linked. So I am at a loss to see what is in need of translation. Could you be more specific? — scribbling  woman  18:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You do need to explain it in the captions. That's what it takes. As for cause célèbre, I've never head that term, and I live in Canada. So imagine someone from Australia struggling to understand it. I suggest it be translated. GreenJoe 18:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * All of the remaining French (captions and in the text) has been translated. I'm a little bit at a loss about cause celebre, as I'm an American and I consider that to be an English expression (derived, obviously, from French).  However, it could certainly be substituted with something else. Dina 18:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: I don't think cause célèbre needs to be translated; it is linked. — scribbling  woman  19:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * cause celebre is probably the most precise term for that context. It's maybe not heard everyday in English, but is common enough, and there's no English equivilant ("celebrated cause" is the translation, which simply isn't used in English [I'm in Canada too]). The only other untranslated French, now that the captions are translated, that I see is Cote-des-Neiges/Notre-Dame-de-Grace, which is never translated by English speakers ("No Damn Good" for NDG notwithstanding) bobanny 19:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * 'Cause celebre' would be like using 'coup d'etat' or 'raison d'etre'. Plus, it's wiki-linked, so if you don't know what it means, you just have to click on it to find out (as I did). Nathanalex 19:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Cause celebre" is a perfectly acceptable, oft-used and well known term. Given that the term is a long established part of the English language, there is no need to amend its use here. I also didn't think there was "too much French" in the pre-amended version at all, and do not understand GreenJoe's issues with this. -- Z leitzen (talk)  01:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * To be fair, we have added a couple of translations of photo captions etc since he made his comment. Slp1 01:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC) Oops missed pre-amended part, so not really a logical response! Slp1 01:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I haven't read the article, but I'll dispute the cause celebre being well-known statement. I actually got into a disagreement on the Martin Scorsese page over the use of it, myself and no one in my family had ever heard of it (I asked five family members—two of whom had college degrees). If it's linked I guess it's okay but it's definitely not common or well known outside of intellectual circles. Quadzilla99 13:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * My experience is just the opposite, coming from a non-intellectual background. Maybe its use is less common in some places, but it seems to be settled here that it's at least common enough, and appropriate, for this context. bobanny 20:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Well first off, I've never heard of the term either and it's not common, also I would delete the in popular culture section or at least convert it to prose, I'm half tempted to slap a triva tag on it as it is. I'll give a full look over tomorrow, but I'd oppose based on that alone. Scattered pop culture references in a random, unconnected way is almost the definition of trivia Aaron Bowen 09:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps some of the references in popular culture could be moved into commemoration? "So and so wrote a song about it, so and so wrote a play, etc."? Also, about cause celebre, if you don't know what it means, look it up! It isn't fair to judge the article negatively because it contains a word/phrase you didn't know... isn't Wikipedia about learning new things!? :) Nathanalex 17:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There has been some discussion on the talk page of all that you suggest -- trimming the pop culture reference section, getting rid of it, or making it less of a list. Your thoughts are valuable there, because I don't think a lot of editors are terribly attached to a pop culture reference section, but it would be interesting to include some of this material. Dina 18:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Pop culture has been converted to prose and moved to the commemoration section. Thanks for the great suggestions. --Slp1 19:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Request: It would be helpful if commenters here framed their no-doubt legitimate but sometimes minor problems with the article in the larger context of the article as a whole. — scribbling  woman  10:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have left a note on User:GreenJoe's talk page asking him to review the article, in light of the changes made in response to his comments. Dina 18:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * cause célèbre still needs to be fixed up. Just based on the comments here some people do and some people don't know what it means. Wikilining is great, but if it hinders the ability of the reader to understand a large part of the article, then I cannot change my opposition. GreenJoe 18:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * While I still respectfully disagree that cause célèbre isn't an English expression, it certainly isn't important enough to the article to draw a line in the sand. I have exchanged the expression for "galvanizing incident", however, I welcome any other suggestions or edits, as the reason the expression exists in English is because, well, there isn't really an English expression for that concept exactly.  "Galvanizing incident" is what I came up with, but there may be something better.  Cheers. Dina 18:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This cause célèbre business is ridiculous. It is a common expression used throughout the English speaking world - even Jimbo Wales uses the term in informal debates. If it is in the English dictionary, is used by the BBC, Fox News, the Australian, the Tapai times, the Jamaican gleaner and on and on, then it should be perfectly acceptable to use here. For people who haven't heard of this common expression used throughout the English speaking media; they should thank this article for improving their vocabulary and knowledge of common terms, which is one of the joys of an encyclopedia. Normal media simply assumes readers have heard of the expression and rightfully uses it when appropriate without definition. I'd actually go further and say that if an editor hasn't heard of this standard literary expression, they are not in the best position to judge an article's prose in the first place, sorry if that sounds rude.-- Z leitzen (talk)  17:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Zleitzen here. Cause celebre has been in the English language for over a century, and would be considered slightly hackneyed if it were not for the fact that there is not a good synonym. Our cause célèbre article (aside from using French diacritics, which it usually does not have in English use) is weak and mostly a list (possibly largely WP:OR), but it should be a phrase recognizable by most high-school educated English speakers. I'm not sure where we're aiming reading levels here, but I'm a bit surprised that anyone would object.--Dhartung | Talk 06:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice speech. I'm surprised you just didn;t just pull some imaginery numbers out of your butt like "I'd say 80-90% if the people know what it is". Aaron Bowen 19:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Support Rlevse 10:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Support This article has grown by leaps and bounds since it was put up for the FA nom. It explains both the incident and what came of it very well; well written and well cited of course. It should be a "cause celebre" for editors! Hahaha, couldn't resist. :) Nathanalex 20:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Support. I have only a few FAC comments in the past, so I hope I'm within bounds here. I think the article has improved, although as a FA I personally think it has some weak spots. I'll identify one: the plaque photo, the article's main image, is poorly explained. I'm not sure it's the best choice, partly because it's too close to see the context it's in. I don't have a specific preference for another, although obviously a memorial that isn't at the school is less relevant. I believe that fair use news photos are pretty much out of question due to the large number of free images available, so they're what has to be chosen from. In any case, plate should be "plaque", the idiomatic English word, and I would name the stone (granite, presumably). The word "side" should be "exterior wall", preferably more precise e.g. "on the exterior wall of the school near the classroom" or whatever is correct to say, and somehow the body who affixed the plaque (the school administration or somebody else?) should be described. Perhaps a sourced "Each of the aluminum pegs represents a victim". What is the design or designs on each? It just seems like there isn't enough context in the caption. If it isn't the main image, I think a briefer caption would be sufficient. Some more small points: I would move "The massacre profoundly shocked..." bit into the "Search for a rationale" section, which could use it as a transition. Oh, another: "Nave" in English means part of a church; the English word for nef is "Knave". I would also include at least part of a section, if not an entire section, placing the shooting in context with international shooting incidents including e.g. Charles Whitman. It actually seems like there's an attempt to limit comparisons to Canadian incidents but this isn't the CBC with Canadian content quotas, eh? Obviously this was a heavy death toll among mass shootings and has only been surpassed a few times, so a global view here would help.--Dhartung | Talk 06:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your suggestions, Dhartung. I made some of the changes, but I don't agree with them all. The level of detail you're suggesting for the image caption I think would make it more about the plaque itself rather than what it's illustrating. As for the photo selection, without a concrete suggestion, I don't know what other free-use images we could use that would improve the article. We probably could get away with some fair-use image, given it's a unique historical event, but I'm not convinced that's necessary. More recent school shootings, especially Virginia Tech, have more photos, thanks to cell phone cameras that didn't exist in '89. I also disagree that the article has some kind of nationalist tinge. Virginia Tech is wikilinked in the main text, and the 'see also' section points readers to List of school massacres, which is international, as well as School shooting. That's pretty much what 'see also' sections are for, and the point of those two articles is for context. Also, one of the main editors on this article is American, and we went to great lengths to anglicize the text (see the cause celebre debate above). To be frank, I don't think this kind of suggestion would be made for a US school massacre article. Columbine High School massacre doesn't look outside the US borders at all, even though the body count was less and the article begins by ranking it with other school killings. If there's a nationalist conspiracy here, I don't think it's from my side of the border (perhaps some people are still upset by that Capitol Hill thing?). Finally, "Nave" is the correct translation for the memorial. bobanny 09:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't require you agree with all my suggestions, certainly! First, the photo bit was me wondering (or hand-wringing) out loud. I just don't feel the plaque is visually compelling enough for its position, but I frankly admit there doesn't seem to be a better choice available. I simply feel if this is the most prominent image in the article, it should have a more formal and explanatory caption. It still seems inadequate to me, but I'm just one opinion. As for the context question, I certainly didn't mean nationalistic, just parochial -- and in fact the context section now in Virginia Tech massacre was, I thought, done well with a global view in mind (and I would recommend one for the Columbine article as well, and yes, I'm American). It's much better and more informative than just a "See also" list. Finally, I see I misunderstood about nef, my memories of French failed me. --Dhartung | Talk 20:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I do appreciate that your suggestions were not framed as a deal-breaker for the FAC. This article has improved a lot from this process because of fresh eyes and outside suggestions, whether or not everyone agrees. On the context thing, I'm not convinced that would add much to the article. In some cases, such discussions seem to be more about ranking them by bodycount, as if some kind of gruesome contest, rather than a meaningful comparison. Some of the commonalities linking such incidents don't seem to apply here, such as the copycat phenomenon, and the issue of gun politics is exceptionally pronounced in the US (and gun regulation is a national thing, in terms of policy implications). I'm not opposed to adding more context, and maybe I'm just not the one who should do it, but I'm not sure what would be included in such a section that would add value to the article beyond what the 'see also' section adds. I found your parochial comment ironic because that's a Canadian stereotype of Americans (with all the pitfalls that come with stereotypes). I guess part of my reservation is not wanting to artificially define this event by how it is or isn't like school shootings in the US. bobanny 22:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Speaking as the American involved in the article, to be honest, some of my contributions have involved more "localizing" than global contextualizing. I recall altering a statement about the effect of the events on the women's movement to say the Canadian women's movement, because I didn't see any evidence that the worldwide women's movement had been affected.  While it's impossible to prove a negative, I feel like such statements are generally supported by the available sources.  It seems to me that there wasn't widespread (at least within North America) effects from these events outside Canada.  There's a whole other debate to be had about why that's true, but I was a pretty aware, though pre-internet adolescent in '89 and I hadn't heard of this shooting until recently.  We can't do original research about global context, we can only reflect what's been reported.  And the facts of the matter are that I don't recall a substantial number of sources or commentary about these events coming from anywhere outside of Canada.  In "defense" of the US, I'd offer that we have more than enough school shootings ourself to make meanings of (though we did not, perhaps, in 1989, and we have yet to have any with this particular bent of anti-feminism.)  I'd genuinely be interested to read any sources that contexualize and compare this event, and the Dawson school shootings with the U.S., but right now, it doesn't appear that anyone has written any to report on.  For now, I think the article should reflect these events for what they are -- a specifically Canadian event, with specifically Canadian responses and consequences.   It seems enough as it is to me, possibly more than enough. Dina 02:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Very reasonable responses both. I definitely recall that in 1989 these events were not so dreadfully common and the U.S. perception of Canada being a less violent, friendlier place made it seem all the more baffling. I'm probably not doing any real good asking for new sections to be created. I did see the article months ago and it's most certainly improved a great deal, and some of my questions about the article may be more about the event itself which offers no simple answers. And now I'm just sliding off topic. --Dhartung | Talk 05:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.