Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Émile Bouchard/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:51, 15 September 2009.

Émile Bouchard

 * Nominator(s): BashBrannigan (talk) 02:51, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because it is comprehensive, clearly written and fully documented with citations. It is also about a significant figure in the history of hockey, not just to Canada and Quebec but also to the NHL. I have ensured the accuracy of everything provided using multiple sources whenever possible. There are also 2 photographs. BashBrannigan (talk) 02:51, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment The references need publishers; here's a sample edit for you to go by. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * done BashBrannigan (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Image check: Copyrights OK. Alt text needs to be improved; see WP:ALT. Stifle (talk) 09:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * fixed, added alt text BashBrannigan (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I see no alt text for either image. Which edits added it? Eubulides (talk) 18:19, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My mistake. I re-read the wiki about the purpose of alt text. I was confusing it for caption. I think I've done it properly on the team photo, but not 100% sure. I'm not sure how to add it to the infobox photo, but I'll keep reading about it. BashBrannigan (talk) 18:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * For the infobox template you can use the  parameter. Thanks for the alt text for the team photo. It still needs a bit of work, as it contains two phrases  a phrase ("1942 Montreal Canadiens" and "Bouchard is in back row far right." ) that cannot be verified by a non-expert who is looking only at the image, and which need s to be reworded or removed as per WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 19:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You quite right, I simply identified Bouchard myself from the photo, which I understand isn’t sufficient. I'll remove the specific reference to Bouchard if necessary. However, I did some googling to see if I could find some external confirmation. I came across this website, which is a tribute to Clifford Goupille who was on the team. It uses the photo and identifies Bouchard along with Goupille: http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~girouard/cliff.htm The website is in french, but the caption translates as: “Canadiens 1942-43. Top row starting from the right: Emile "Butch" Bouchard, Maurice "Rocket" Richard and Cliff Goupille.” I know English websites are preferred on English Wikipedia, but we’re dealing with French-Canadian players. To me this seems like possible confirmation. What do you think? BashBrannigan (talk) 20:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I just I noticed that the wikipedia source for the photo itself IDs Bouchard: "Montreal Canadiens hockey team, October 1942. Back row (left to right): Portland, Lee, Bibault, Laforce, Coupille, Richard, Bouchard. Front row (left to right): Carragher, Harmon, O'Connor, Heffernan, Lach, Demers, Adams" BashBrannigan (talk) 20:48, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Those sources can be cited in the caption, to support claims in the caption. However, alt text cannot contain references (it's pure text; no wiki markup like " ") and as a practical matter it can't cite sources; see WP:ALT. I suggest moving the phrases in question to the caption and citing the website there, leaving the alt text to focus purely on the visual aspects of the image that are obvious even to a non-expert. Eubulides (talk) 21:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * External links OK. Stifle (talk) 09:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment Says he was born 1920, has a 1919 category. Hekerui (talk) 15:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Both the Internet Hockey Database and Hockey-reference.com give his birthdate as 1920. However the family's website give his birthday as Sept 4, 1919. I assume the family website is considered the authority. Actually, I just checked and one of Hall of Fame articles also give it as 1919. Making the change. Thanks! BashBrannigan (talk) 16:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Oppose – Numerous prose problems throughout, among other issues, and I'm unsure if the amount of work necessary can be undertaken during an FAC. Here are a few random examples:
 * "A member of the Hockey Hall of Fame who won four Stanley Cups (please link for non-hockey fans), was captain of the Canadiens for eight years and elected to the NHL All Star team (link needed again) four times." This sentence has no subject. Considering that this is the second sentence of the article, I'm concerned.
 * fixed. I guess I assumed the subject would be take for granted, but I suppose that's not proper. BashBrannigan (talk) 23:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "Bouchard arrived at all his NHL training camps in peak condition." The source says nothing of the sort; it states that he was in good condition for the 1941–42 season.
 * Fixed. I had seen a reference that he arrived to all training camps in peak condition. When/If I find it, I'll add and then revert. BashBrannigan (talk) 23:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * As I read this, I sense that his accomplishments are being puffed up in a point of view way. I can't pinpoint one exact sentence that makes me feel this way, but there are a few too many "cut an impressive figure" and "became a formidable force"-type phrases for my taste.
 * Not sure what i can do about this. These are my words, but the references a filled with such superlatives. It would be POV to manufacture mediocrity. However, I'm open to suggestions of alternatives. BashBrannigan (talk) 23:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "and was key to the Canadiens first season in several years without losing more games than they won." Apostrophe after Canadiens is needed.
 * "A respectable 19 wins and 19 losses with 12 ties to finish in fourth place." Sentence fragments are a no-no in prose that meets FA standard.
 * "Richard was not just an exciting player who put fans in the seats he was the added offensive ingredient which made the team a power." Entire sentence consists of informal writing that will inevitably confuse non-sports fans.
 * "Canadiens proceeded to dominate the regular season...". "The" missing at start of sentence.
 * "In 1948 Bouchard became the first Quebec born captain of the Canadiens a position he retained for 8 years until his retirement." This sentence should have a comma after Canadiens, and is but one example of numerous missing punctuation in the article.
 * the above 5 fixed BashBrannigan (talk) 23:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "In 1952–53, Bouchard had his third Stanley Cup." "had" needs to be replaced, and the sentence is awfully stubby. Who did Montreal beat?
 * Change "had" to "won". However, I had deliberately made the sentence short for emphasis of importance of the event. The significance was he won another Cup, not who they defeated. I did link the season to the wiki article for that season if that helps. BashBrannigan (talk)

Much copy-editing is required here.  Giants2008  ( 17–14 ) 02:32, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * To meet your other overall concerns, I'm by no means a grammarian, but I can try to take another look-through. thanks. BashBrannigan (talk) 23:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * Current ref 3 (Hunter..) lacks a page number
 * This can be fixed, but not immediately as the book is in a library I will not have access until next week. BashBrannigan (talk) 03:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What makes http://habslegends.blogspot.com/2006/07/butch-bouchard.html a reliable source?
 * Website written by by Joe Pelletier. His website gives his qualifications as: author of two internationally published hockey books: The World Cup of Hockey (2 editions) and Legends of Team Canada. Pelletier has also contributed articles to The Hockey News, Hockey Digest, Sports Illustrated.com, Canadian Hockey Magazine and Total Hockey. He has worked on various projects for Hockey Canada, USA Hockey, the Buffalo Sabres, TSN.ca, CTV NewsNet and the National Post. BashBrannigan (talk) 03:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What makes http://www.azhockey.com/Ny.htm a reliable source?
 * It produced by Ice Hockey Annual, which is an annual publication for European Hockey published since 1976. their website is:
 * http://www.graphyle.com/IHA/index.htm
 * Also, an award is given out by Ice Hockey Annual which has it’s own wiki:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Hockey_Annual_Trophy BashBrannigan (talk) 03:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using cite news, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper.
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose: I reluctantly oppose on a fundamental issue: the article's name. To quote from WP:NAME, "Name articles in accordance with what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize – usually the most commonly used name in verifiable reliable sources in English."  Bouchard is, of course, most widely known to English speakers as Butch Bouchard.  Butch has twice as many hits as Emile on both regular Google and Google News.  Fischler's Hockey Encyclopedia lists him as Butch, Total Hockey lists him as Butch, the NHL Official Guides list him as Butch, and so should this article.    RGTraynor  15:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I must admit I can see the logic in this. After all, George Herman Ruth's wikipedia page is under Babe Ruth. I don't think I would oppose changing it to Butch Bouchard, but I would like to get other's opinions on this. BashBrannigan (talk) 21:00, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I've always known him as Emile, not Butch. While Butch may have been the more common name in the past, I am not certain it is so prevalent as to require renaming this article. Resolute 14:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, even if you limit your search to the past year or two, "Butch" is far more common in Google searches, both for the Web and for news articles. Eubulides (talk) 16:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.