Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2022 Tour de France Femmes/archive2

2022 Tour de France Femmes

 * Nominator(s): Turini2 (talk) 08:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The first edition of the Tour de France Femmes (a cycling race) – held in 2022 after years of campaigning for a women's Tour de France race.

This is a second attempt (nominated before, and I didn't get to fixing things in time – these have now been resolved). The article is a GA and has been through the WP:GOCE process. Wish me luck! Turini2 (talk) 08:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Some polite pings - @AirshipJungleman29 who took part in the first review, and @Reidgreg who did the very excellent job of copyediting the article! Turini2 (talk) 17:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Reidgreg
As noted above, I copyedited the article in Nov 2023 (copyedited version) and may be biased toward that version. That's it for now. – Reidgreg (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm still not a fan of the wide infobox; the map is not terribly legible, so I'm not sure the point of having it take up that much room.
 * I feel that the five-paragraph lead could probably be consolidated to two or three paragraphs for an article of this size. My copyedit version handled it after the lead paragraph as a results-oriented summary, putting the winners first as that's the most important result; I can see from the previous FAC review that some other editors prefer a chronological summary of the race.  Can't say that I agree, but in any case it should be simpler and more concise.
 * The race would take place prior to the final stage of the men's race in Paris. If it can be confirmed to have happened, use past tense.
 * and not being hard enough for the professional peloton Not being difficult enough or challenging enough.
 * pushed for La Course to evolve into a multi day stage race, with former cyclist & commentator multi-stage, cyclist and commentator.
 * As a matter of completeness, should there be a brief mention of how this race affected the second and third editions of the race?


 * Tweaks made. I also prefer your version of the lead – I expanded it slightly to accommodate the request for a chronological telling of the race following the last FAC review. In terms of the infobox, it's following the pattern of other Tour de France articles (e.g. FA 2012 Tour de France). Thanks for your help! Turini2 (talk) 07:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Gog the Mild
Recusing to review.

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The lead is IMO a little long in proportion to the article, and MOS:LEADLENGTH suggests it should consist of "One or two paragraphs".
 * "French rider Jeannie Longo won the 1987, 1988 and 1989 editions of the race, gaining fame in the process". This seems a little random. A factoid about one rider dropped into the history of the race.
 * Would I be correct in assuming that no women's race took place in 2010, 2011, 2012, nor 2013? If so, perhaps this could be stated.
 * "with sponsors welcoming the visibility of the Champs-Élysées". How is this relevant to the article?


 * In the lead, I have struggled with including all relevant information requested while keeping the length. Pointers welcome!
 * The lead is not supposed to include all relevant information, it is intended to briefly summarise the article. I have put a draft of a slimmed down version on the talk page. See what you think. Note that it is not normal to include citations in the lead. (Nor the infobox.) As a summary, anything in the lead will be covered more fully in the main article, where it will be cited in more detail.
 * Have rewritten the lead, now much shorter.
 * Jeannie Longo is a reasonably famous sportswoman, particularly in France - happy to remove, but thought a useful (and referenced) historical tidbit.
 * Almost the definition of things not to include. Either expand the mention to explain why and how Longo particularly influenced the development of the Tour de France Femmes - assuming she did - or take it out.
 * Removed.
 * Realistically, the last "Tour de France Féminin" was in 1989 - the organisers of the men's race didn't allow them to use their trademark. Hence the "although the name of the event changed several times" phrasing. There were other ersatz women's races that tried to be a ""Tour de France Féminin" - e.g. La Route de France. It's complicated!
 * That's why we FAC nominators get the big bucks! (Try explaining 3rd century BC naval tactics.) from whenever you start, if there was some sort of proto-TdFF you need to mention briefly it, if there wasn't you need to say so, if it was complicated you need to briefly explain the nature of the complication. What you do, you have done well, but what seem to be gaps stand out.
 * Have rephrased and reworded, to make clearer.
 * Women's cycling historically has not been on live TV or well supported commercially - sources back up that sponsors of teams were very happy to be "sharing the stage" with the Tour de France. Again, happy to remove or rephrase.
 * I meant that thee and me might understand the connection between the TdF and the visibility of the Champs-Élysées, but a non-aficionado will have no idea what you are talking about. And as an encyclopedia we are supposed to be explaining things for a general audience.
 * Have reworded, and added a slight bit to the background.
 * Turini2 (talk) 21:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)


 * "and not being challenging enough for the professional peloton". What is "the professional peloton"? And why "the" and not 'a'?
 * Piped to clarify
 * "Riders and campaigners pushed for La Course to evolve into a multi-stage race, cyclist & commentator Joanna Rowsell stating". The comma should be either a full stop or a semi colon.
 * Fixed
 * "We need mountain climbs, flat stages, time trials and a Champs-Elysees finish". Reading this made me realise that the article just assumes that the reader is aware of the TdF for men to quite a detailed level. I think you need to explain it somewhere near the start of Background, including what all of these things are and touching on the different jerseys. I assume that you can steal most of this from the TdF article. Having just reread, I am eg unsure from the article whether La Course by Le Tour de France was a stage race or not. Or what a stage is.
 * I've added a sentence on what the Tour de France is at the start of Background... I note that FA 2012 Tour de France does not provide this level of background information. Have tweaked things to clarify.


 * "Pushing back on criticism". "on" → 'at'.
 * Fixed
 * Did la Course by Le Tour de France occur in each year from 2013 to 2021?
 * Rephrased
 * "with Anna van der Breggen stating ... and Cecilie Uttrup Ludwig stating ..." Who are these two that a reader might care about their opinions? And synonym time, can we avoid two times "stating".
 * Clarified

I am going to pause here. I think I have given you a fair bit to think about, come back on and/or get on with and I would like to get this foundation stage of the article sorted before moving on to the detail. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I hope the improvements take it a big step forward! Turini2 (talk) 10:17, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gog the Mild hi - as per above, I've made those edits and redrafted the lead substantially - now 267 words in length (3 paragraphs) rather than 369 words. Turini2 (talk) 19:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Right, thanks for that. It is now, IMO, in better shape. However, moving on I feel that we may be getting into something akin to a fix loop. For example
 * 'The overall length of the event was met with agreement, with some teams noting that they do not "yet have the staff or numbers ... for a three-week event."' As it happens, I know the relevance of "a three-week event", but a passing reader may not and I don't see it explained elsewhere in the article. I feel, as I suspect the nominator does, that this is an important point, in which case it needs explaining.
 * There is a section called "Mountain stages", but no explanation of what they are, nor their significance. Similarly re the several mentions of "summit finish".
 * "chasing back after a mechanical". I am not sure that "chasing back" will be readily understood. I am sure that "a mechanical" won't. While it is piped, MOS:NOFORCELINK says "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links." There are several other examples of a Wikilink being used instead of an in line explanation. (And where, IMO, a reader in unlikely to understand what is meant from context and where understanding the text is important to understanding the article.)


 * Given the points above, each of which is an example of a broader point which I am unhappy with, I am currently leaning oppose. Unfortunately, while happy in principle to discuss this and open to changing my mind - there is a lot of good work in the article and it is not that far off FA standard - I am going to be away from any internet connection for most of a week. So apologies for an anticipated slow response. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I consider I have addressed these three points, as well as making some wider edits to clarify things and unknown terms. In terms of your wider point about a fix loop, this is why I had the article copyedited prior to bringing it to FAC. Turini2 (talk) 17:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Image review - pass
The article uses the following main images:


 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2022_Tour_de_France_Femmes.svg
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2019-10-26_14-54-37_planche-des-belles-filles.jpg
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jumbo_tour_de_france_reims_1408748.jpg
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2022-07-30_16-36-56_TDFF-Willer-sur-Thur_(cropped).jpg
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2022-07-31_17-20-13_TDFF-Plancher-les-Mines.jpg
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2022-07-31_-_TDF_Femmes_-_Lure_-_302_(cropped).jpg
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2022-07-30_16-38-12_TDFF-Willer-sur-Thur_(cropped).jpg

They are all own works from wikimedia users and all licensed under Creative Commons. All images are relevant to the article. The image "2019-10-26 14-54-37 planche-des-belles-filles.jpg" lacks an alt text but the others have alt texts. All images have captions. The caption needs to end with a period as it is a full sentence. I suggest removing the expression "the hors catégorie (English: beyond category)" because readers may not be familiar with this technical term, the translation in parenthesis is not helpful, and the information is not essential to understand the image. The caption also needs to end with a period. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Amended and fixed, thanks! Turini2 (talk) 10:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Looks good, the article passes the image review. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)