Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/A Child of Our Time/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 20:46, 27 May 2012.

A Child of Our Time

 * Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 22:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Michael Tippett's semi-dramatic oratorio, written  in the early years of the Second World War, records the events of "Kristallnacht", a pogrom against Germany's Jews  carried out by the Nazis in November 1938. Tippett extends this theme to create a work of sympathy and hope for enslaved peoples everywhere; it is punctuated by American spirituals deployed as a secular alternative to Bach-like chorales. I hope that the article, which has recently been peer reviewed, might be TFA on one of the anniversaries of Kristallnacht (9 November), or perhaps next Holocaust Remembrance Day, 7 April 2013. Brianboulton (talk) 22:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Support I had my say at the peer review, all concerns were answered or addressed. Well done as usual, Brian.  Images not checked.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the peer review, and for the support and encouragement. Brianboulton (talk) 19:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Support I too took part in the peer review, where my handful of minor quibbles were dealt with. It's a very fine article. Tim riley (talk) 05:51, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * As per above. Even though my chosen areas (Tippett, Monteverdi, Cosima Wagner etc) rarely accord with your own, you always find something helpful to say. Many thanks indeed. Brianboulton (talk) 19:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Support. I'm delighted that someone of Brian's calibre is working on a Tippett article. Not at all a work I've ever warmed to, but some of Tippett's output has driven my love of 20th-century music. At the moment, the third movement of his first piano sonata is desert-island material (?1933).
 * The sonata is a little later; completed in 1938 and first performed 11 November 1938 (two days after Kristallnacht) by Phyllis Sellick


 * "The work was inspired by specific events that affected Tippett profoundly"—This is only a suggestion; I'm not quite sure, to be honest: "The work was inspired by events that had affected Tippett profoundly"
 * I have removed "specific" but prefer to keep the original tense, as I think the events continued to affect Tippett throughout these years.


 * Can the repetition of "German" be avoided? Again, please treat this as a highly optional point: "the assassination in 1938 of a German diplomat by a young Jewish refugee, and the German government's reaction in the form of". Hmmm ... "and Berlin's reaction", I suppose, isn't quite right. No matter.
 * I found a way round this.


 * "happenings" ... incidents?
 * The logic of "but" is wobbly: "Tippett's oratorio deals with these happenings, but in the context of the experiences of oppressed people generally" ... could it be "Tippett's oratorio deals with these happenings in the context of the experiences of oppressed people generally"?
 * What about making this parallel: "of Handel's Messiah, and is structured in the manner of the Passions of Bach" -> "of Handel's Messiah, and is structured in the manner of Bach's Passions".
 * "The work's most original feature is Tippett's use of American spirituals, which perform the role allocated to chorales in the Bach Passions."—mmm ... maybe "; the most original feature is the use of American spirituals, which perform the role allocated to the chorales in those Passions."? Don't know whether you want this so closely linked with the previous sentence (my semicolon). And maybe "take on" is better than "performed", which leaks into musical "performance" in this context.
 * Found a way of dealing with this, too - see what you think.


 * "Tippett justified this innovation on the grounds that these songs of oppression possessed a universality absent from Christian or other religious hymns." Not an assertion (Tippett's) that I find easy to accept at face-value. How do you feel about using present-tense "possess"? And could "or" be "and"?
 * "all over the world, in many languages"—remove comma?
 * OMG: Tippett was allowed near a baton? He had no idea of rehearsal technique!
 * Well, maybe he improved in old age. I've heard his recording; it's not the worst of the bunch. In my view that honour belongs to Previn (though I haven't heard the two most recent versions).

I'll be back. This is lovely stuff. Tony  (talk)  12:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I have largely adopted your suggested tweaks, and commented otherwise. Thanks, Tony, for your support and interest, and I look forward to more comments in due course. Brianboulton (talk) 19:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * No citations to Bowen 1982
 * FN6: doubled parentheses
 * FN30: doubled quotation marks. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * All fixed. Thanks for the checks, Nikki. Brianboulton (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Image review Brian asked me to review the images before this FAC and I did so (and found and uploaded the free image of the "Deep River" sheet music). The images are all free and properly sourced and licensed. Thanks too to for looking at the lead image. My comments on the article to follow. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 15:13, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your help with images. I look forward to your general review comments. Brianboulton (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Support - I did not review this before (except for images), but on reading it carefully now, I find it meets the FA criteria fully. I have a few quibbles which do not detract from my support.
 * Should ODNB be spelled out per the MOS?
 * The Composition section seems to imply that spirituals are not religious songs, when they certainly are. This is mostly attributed to Tippet, but it still bothered me.
 * A fair point, and I have altered the text to remove the implication to which you refer. I think Tippett's objection was to Christian hymns of praise rather than to all religious-themed songs (he did after all, consider Jewish hymns. He saw spirituals as having a significance beyond their old-fashioned religious language. Brianboulton (talk) 21:47, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Well done, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:13, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * In the Premiere section should the SATB type be given for Margaret MacArthur, as is done for the other soloists? Assume she is an alto ''Joan Cross (soprano); Peter Pears (tenor), and Roderick Lloyd (bass); the fourth singer, Margaret MacArthur, came from Morley College.
 * Thank you for your comments and support. The minor fixes are all done as you suggest (I have removed "ODNB" from th text). Brianboulton (talk) 21:47, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

It seems impertinent to offer support given my limited experience and knowledge of the FA criteria, but it's whole-hearted nonetheless. Here are some diffident comments: Synopsis and structure: Premiere: I'm delighted to see this lovely work given the comprehensive treatment it deserves. With best wishes, Simon the Likable (talk) 19:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Libretto: "Eliot's response was to advise the composer to" – perhaps "Eliot advised the composer to" ? More concise, but I'm easy either way...
 * Composition: "The first, third and fifth of these are placed at the ends of parts" – perhaps I'm being overly sensitive but "ends of parts" seems a bit clunky and perhaps unclear (in spite of your introduction of the three parts in the earlier Libretto section). Just adding a definite article—"the parts"—might help.  Or "each part", or "the three parts", or even "the oratorio's three parts"?
 * "He later extended his summary to the following:-" – remove the hyphen per MOS:colons
 * There seems to be a surfeit of directives, but perhaps there's a reason for this?
 * "overrode the composer's first intention that Morley College's orchestra could handle the work" – Perhaps "overrode the composer's initial view that Morley College's orchestra could handle the work" or "overrode the composer's first intention that Morley College's orchestra be used"?
 * Wikilink "London Philharmonic Orchestra"? – or are you avoiding a wikilink within a quote?
 * Thank you for your kind words and for your comments, all of which make excellent sense and which I have adopted nem con. Although I don't usually link within quotes, as this is the only mention of the orchestra I think an exception can be made. Brianboulton (talk) 21:47, 24 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.