Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/A History of British Fishes/archive1

A History of British Fishes

 * Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Somewhat to my surprise, there doesn't appear to be any article on Wikipedia about a fish book, so to remedy that I bring you William Yarrell's landmark publication that was the standard in its field for much of the 19th century Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:William_Yarrell._Photograph_by_Maull_%26_Polyblank._Wellcome_V0027361.jpg: license provided doesn't match source
 * File:Jonathan_Couch.jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Of course, these are the two images I didn't upload myself... Thanks for review, uploaded different image of Yarrell and replaced Couch with seahorses Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:43, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Gone back to original image, fixed licence as PD-old Jimfbleak - talk to me?</i> 13:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Support from Tim riley
A pleasure to read and review this article. I share the nominator's surprise that this is our first article on a book about fish, and am glad that the first is so good. A handful of quibbles, none of which affect my support:
 * Lead
 * "describing every type of fish known to occur in Britain" – does "Britain" here mean the UK, including Ireland, as it did then? And also, does it include offshore territorial waters? Or even the UK continental shelf (if the legal distinction was made in Yarrell's day, that is)?


 * Yarrell says British Isles, so I've changed to that, obviously includes marine species but doesn't specify limits <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "commemorated in a number of species" – a bit woolly: if the actual number of species is known it would be good to mention it. Even "in at least x species" would be an improvement.


 * Eight, although not all still recognised, the fish are though <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Format
 * "he naturally followed the older man's format" – the adverb looks a wee bit editorial.


 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The blockquote – we don't, I think, usually put blockquotes in italics.


 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Production and publication


 * "to shoot and fish around London" – this would, I think, benefit from a little expansion. In Yarrell's day London technically meant just the City: all the rest was in Middx, Surrey and Kent. I don't know where the nobs used to shoot or fish in the areas of those counties nearest the urban bits, but something on the lines of "on estates near London", or even actual place names, might be beneficial here. <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Reception
 * "There was a generally appreciative reception from Yarrell's fellow naturalists, too" – a very minor stylistic point, but to my mind the "too" doesn't add anything useful and is redundant.


 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

That's my lot. I am glad to support the elevation of this article, which seems to me to meet all the FA criteria.  Tim riley  talk   14:47, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * , many thanks for review and comments, that was painless! <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild
Recusing to review.


 * "Interest in natural history was growing rapidly in the early nineteenth century". Would it be worth putting a geographical restriction on this?


 * Probably not, although Fishes was British, amended to British Isles per Tim's comments above, there was similar activity in Europe, and John James Audubon visited Yarrell and other when visiting Europe to get material for his great American bird book <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:56, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Is it known how many copies were printed for any of the editions?


 * I wondered that, but Jackson, who is very thorough on his publications, doesn't say and I can't find it elsewhere <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:57, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * "Bewick had himself planned to ..." I'm not sure about "himself". Who else could he be?


 * Removed reflexive <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:56, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

That's all. Great work. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Gog the Mild, many thanks for review and comments <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:56, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Gog the Mild, many thanks for support <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 19:07, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Support from Kusma
Adding this to my list of things to review. —Kusma (talk) 14:16, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You may be wrong about this being the first article on a book about fish: see Histoire naturelle des poissons and Category:Ichthyological literature. But yours definitely seems to be the best article about a fish book.
 * Yes, especially as I've linked to the Histoire <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 09:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Lead: for an ignoramus like me with no idea who Thomas Bewick is, it is a bit hard to understand how the book follows his lead. Just making it "the example of Thomas Bewick's natural history books" would be enough to clarify.
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 09:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Format (or "Format and content"?): Were any of the species previously unknown/unpublished? Is Bewick's swan seems the only species named by Yarrell? (It is the only one on Wikispecies, for whatever it's worth) Are there other particularly interesting species (anything extinct, for example) worth commenting on?
 * As far as I can see there were no fish species identified by Yarrell, there were a couple of other birds, now only subspecies, beyond the scope of this fish article I think. Similarly, he had a Great Auk egg and some books on fossils, but appears to have had no significant collection extinct species. <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 09:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * OK.


 * Other resources: "in the major London's important Leadenhall Market" sounds a bit garbled
 * Yes tweaked <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 09:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Production and publication: are we sure they were "the best wood engravers in London"? (Says who?)
 * Yes, also see the Gentleman's Magazine quote. But I've removed the claim and mentioned his médaille d'or instead <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 15:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Reception: I wonder if it is worth tracking down the contemporary reviews and citing from them directly. I found the Gentleman's Magazine one, which says among other things "the work before us is, perhaps, the most perfect of its kind", which is perhaps a nice quote. Here is an insanely long article in the Quarterly Review from 1837.


 * Thanks for links, quoted from both <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 15:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Do we know who named the fish species after Yarrell and why? It would be good to know whether these names were related to the present book.
 * Checking this, I found a genus named for him too. As always with taxa, the names and date of the people who named the species are known, but all are obscure and the accessible documentation amounts at most to saying that they were named in honour of him. Adding the names, with nothing substantial to justify doing so, seems unnecessary clutter <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 09:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Notes: I do not particularly like the inline external links to MeasuringWorth; any reason why you prefer this over our in-house Inflation?
 * I wasn't aware of that template, changed <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 15:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Bibliography: The A History of British Fishes section is a bit inconsistent about commas and whether to write volume with a v or a V.
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 09:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Images: The seahorses are great, but I'm not convinced they belong here.
 * I think his discovery of their unusual reproductive strategy justifies using the image from his book. <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 09:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, my bad, for some reason I thought they weren't fish. Must be the name :) Perhaps this is worth commenting on in the main text, not just in the image caption? —Kusma (talk) 09:53, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Mentioned in text, with some salmon thrown in too <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 15:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)<

An enjoyable article, and most of my points are quite minor. —Kusma (talk) 21:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Kusma All done I think, thanks for reviewing <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 15:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * My queries have been dealt with / answered satisfactorily. Support. —Kusma (talk) 19:00, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done


 * What is your citation for the various 2021 inflation figures?


 * I've reverted the inflation figures back to MeasuringWorth, now so sourced <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 14:25, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You could also use, which produces a nicely formatted citation to MeasuringWorth. —Kusma (talk) 12:04, 20 March 2023 (UTC)


 * FN1 is missing both author and publication date. Ditto FN21, check throughout


 * Missing parameters added for the two ODNB sources <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 14:25, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Why is there a separate Cited texts vs Bibliography section? Is the latter intended to be a Further reading section? One of the entries in Bibliography is cited.

Nikkimaria (talk) 21:24, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Rationalised References/Further reading <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 14:25, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Nikkimaria, Thanks for checking, all done now, I think <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 14:25, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * SC
 * Lead
 * "William Yarrell was a London": just "Yarrell" – as you've named full named him above?


 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 13:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


 * "by John Thompson, and three editions and their two supplements": that's a comma splice. Semi-colon maybe?


 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 13:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Link lightfish via pipe?


 * Done, although I'm not totally convinced <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 13:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Author


 * "His father": William's or Francis's?


 * The former, done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 13:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Written sources
 * How does History of British Quadrupeds include British fish?!
 * A question I asked myself, but the reference is to the later 1809 edition which had a fish section, although with few illustrations <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 13:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


 * "species of fishes": "species of fish"?


 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 13:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


 * "£1100": I think I'm right in saying that 1100 should be 1,100 (ditto £4000 lower down). Ignore me if I'm misremembering the arcane meanderings of the MOS.


 * MOS says discretionary for four digits <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 13:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That's fine. Me not knowing the MOS is no great surprise! - SchroCat (talk) 14:09, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Leadenhall Market: this surprised me, as it was better known as a meat, game and cheese market. Billigsgate Market would be a better fit for a fish aficionado, but if that's what the sources say, then who am I who pipe up!


 * Billingsgate Fish Market, as opposed to the wharf, was later than this, but the sources describes it as "London Fish Market (Leadenhall)", which must be wrong, now particularly in London's important markets <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 13:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

That's my lot – I had to scratch around for these as it's written to the usual high standard I expect from your noms. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 12:57, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


 * SchroCat, thanks for review and kind words, all done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 13:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Support - All good from me. Some of those etchings are rather fine - and he has a nice turn of phrase too. - SchroCat (talk) 14:09, 25 March 2023 (UTC)


 * many thanks. And of course he employed the best engravers... <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - <i style="font-family:arial;color:green">talk to me?</i> 16:17, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 11:59, 26 March 2023 (UTC)