Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Albert Ketèlbey/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:08, 16 January 2016.

Albert Ketèlbey

 * Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 15:26, 8 January 2016 (UTC) &  Tim riley  talk   15:25, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Albert Ketèlbey is an interesting figure: the leading light in British pre-war light music, he was a millionaire by the end of the 1920s through the success of works such as In a Monastery Garden (1915) and In a Persian Market (1920), but died a forgotten figure with his work overlooked by the BBC. This article has been overhauled recently and been through a well-attended PR process prior to this shot at FA. – SchroCat (talk) 15:26, 8 January 2016 (UTC) &  Tim riley  talk   15:25, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Support Certainly meets the criteria, an enjoyable read and effective article improved even further since the PR.♦ Dr. Blofeld  17:54, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Doc - your excellent comments in the PR certainly strengthened what we had. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:36, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * Rather than cite DVD notes, I would recommend using cite AV media notes, and when you already have a notation of "liner notes" you need not include "Notes to...CD" unless this is the formal title
 * FN 21 should use a dash rather than a hyphen
 * Naxos Records or just Naxos?
 * Under what circumstances are you including retrieval date?
 * Why are FNs 1 and 80 so different in formatting?
 * Fn82, 83: best to link the OCLC number, and do we actually know the name of this CD?
 * Who is Peter Deverill?
 * Don't italicize WorldCat
 * Should include an indication that the Bourderionnet source is in French. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:18, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * SchroCat: will you have first go at these points, and delegate to me ad lib?  Tim riley  talk    19:35, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Will do! – SchroCat (talk) 20:45, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks, Nikkimaria - all now hopefully sorted correctly, but please let me know if I've missed anything. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 23:29, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Albert Ketèlbey.jpg - Fine
 * File:Birmingham and Midland Institute print cropped contrast.jpg - Fine
 * File:Blue plaque Albert Ketelbey.jpg - Fine
 * File:Cover of the sheet music for In a Monastery Garden.jpg - Looks fine to me
 * File:In a Persian Market.jpg - This looks fine
 * File:Sheet music for Bells Across the Meadow.jpg - As does this. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Excellent - Many thanks, Chris, for your earlier help at PR on these always troublesome tags! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 23:30, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I confess to being something of a philistine when it comes to opera, but I am happy to take a look.
 * Comments from JM
 * I know it's a slightly boring point, but I feel obliged to point out that any image published in any form prior to 1923 is, for our purposes, in the public domain (see PD-US-1923-abroad); the fact you're using a non-free image, therefore, really catches my eye.
 * We've struggled to find images of AWK that we can prove were published pre-1923. There are several that were obviously taken before that watershed, but not that we know were published by then. - SchroCat (talk) 00:05, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * "which Tom McCanna, his biographer, considers "shows a precocious mastery of composition"." The tenses don't quite work for me- how about something like "which, for Tom McCanna, his biographer, "shows a precocious mastery of composition"."?
 * Is "licentiate" not a bit obscure? you
 * Both the sources shown use the term (Sant capitalises his too): I'm not au fait enough with the technical terminology of musical colleges to know what else would replace it, if anything. TR, what's your view on this? - SchroCat (talk) 00:05, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It would make better sense to say "before being awarded his licence" (or "licentiateship" as a pompous alternative). A licentiate is the person holding the certificate of competence, rather as a "graduate" is the holder of a degree, so "being awarded his licentiate" is nonsense really. Personally I'd use the word "certificate", a general term which everyone understands and which means the same thing. Brianboulton (talk) 11:47, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Done - many thanks Brian - SchroCat (talk) 13:53, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * "Charlotte (Lottie) Siegenberg" Would "Charlotte "Lottie" Siegenberg" not be more typical?
 * "is described by Sant as "a typical tragical-love ballad of this time, and its almost Victorian sentimentality comes through in its words.[20][21]" Where does your quote end?
 * "There are two versions for the inspiration behind the piece" This doesn't quite work for me; surely you mean something like "There are two competing stories detailing the inspiration behind the piece"?
 * "while McCanna opines that from the first bar, listeners "... might sooner expect such a device in the impassioned world of a [Gustav] Mahler symphony than in a genteel English salon piece"." This is surely just my ignorance, but it's worth noting that I'm really not clear what is being claimed here.
 * "The following year he wrote the gavotte, Wedgewood Blue and In a Persian Market; the latter became one of his more popular works" How about "The following year he wrote Wedgewood Blue—a gavotte—and In a Persian Market; the latter became one of his more popular works"
 * "the anonymous reviewer "Ariel" described" Pseudonymous, surely?
 * "that the case: "is" Why the colon?
 * "£3,493 in 1940 equates to approximately £170,000 in 2015, while £2,906 equates to approximately £89,000 in 2015" I assume that's £2,906 in 1950?
 * Was he survived by his second wife, or had she died in the '50s?
 * What's a "Caprice"?
 * Bloody good question - and I have no idea of the answer!, is there something useful we can link to here? I'll leave this and the next four to you (I'll pick up the last one). - SchroCat (talk) 00:05, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * A "caprice" or "capriccio" is a short, lively piece of music. I have added an appropriare link. Brianboulton (talk) 11:35, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * "Ketèlbey's piano writing was notable for its brilliance, and the composer's own performance of the solo part of the Concertstück brought out that quality." Is this neutral?
 * It's a true summary of what the source says. We could have the actual words in quotation marks if wanted, but I prefer to keep direct quotes to a minimum as far as possible. I'm wholly biddable in this case.  Tim riley  talk    09:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "The piano works include the early classical pieces such as the 1888 Sonata" do you need the the before "early"?
 * Without the article I think "early classical" would seem to refer to the style (e.g. J C Bach as opposed to Beethoven's first works) and the article makes it clear that the earliness refers to Ketèlbey's oeuvre rather than the genre.  Tim riley  talk    09:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * " as well as sentimental ballads like "Believe me true" (1897), for their seniors" Why the comma? If you're using a parenthetical clause, you'd need another after "ballads"?
 * My worst – or at any rate most frequent – sin as a prose writer is opening subordinate clauses with a comma and forgetting to close them again. Thank you for spotting this outbreak. I'll ponder whether we want two commas or none here.  Tim riley  talk    09:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't know if this is something that has come up before (it strikes me as something that people might be a bit sore about...), but shouldn't songs be in title case?
 * As far as I can work out from the MoS, title case is prescribed for popular songs, but not for classical. I have no personal preference and would be happy with either title or sentence case, though from my (highly unscientific) observation I'd say that sentence case is more usual than title case in our sources.  Tim riley  talk    09:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "considered "Ketèlbey's especial fame ... consisted in his phenomenal success as a composer of light music" Again, tense shift. claimed that, maybe?
 * I tend to steer clear of "claimed" in such contexts as it carries strong overtones that the writer is pushing a dodgy point of view.  Tim riley  talk    09:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Very readable and engaging. A valuable article. Josh Milburn (talk) 23:37, 8 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Josh, Many thanks indeed for your insightful comments: all extremely useful indeed, and I hope I've done them some justice. There's a few for my co-nom to deal with as they're beyond my (limited) scope of knowledge. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 00:05, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Tomorrow, I promise! Am busy having a Sergeant Pepper event today.  Tim riley  talk    15:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * My thanks to Josh, too. Points now addressed, I hope satisfactorily.  Tim riley  talk    09:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Support; a very nice article. I could probably quibble about commas a little further, but I think this probably comes down to stylistic differences rather than right/wrong. I'd be inclined to suggest switching song titles to title case, but I'm not going to hold up my support on that. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:18, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * May thanks Josh for your support, and more importantly, for your thoughts and comments: all hugely appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:34, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Support My concerns were addressed at the peer review, and I'm confident J Milburn's will be as well. Excellent article, though I admit it is someone I'd never heard of. Possibly will come in handy at pub trivia.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:18, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Wehwalt, for your earlier input and your support here.  Tim riley  talk    09:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


 * brilliant studentship - "brilliant" strikes me as potentially editorializing, as it is in Wikipedia's voice
 * I'm not sure about this: it was, after all, brilliant: he won nearly all the prizes on offer and two scholarships. Tim, do you have a view on this? - SchroCat (talk) 11:36, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I think I'd defend "brilliant" here. The word crops up often enough in the sources, and the facts speak for themselves rather. Anyone who beats Gustav Holst into second place must be pretty brilliant, meseems. We could put "brilliant" in quotes and cite it if wanted, but I think that'd be a touch of overkill.  Tim riley  talk    09:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright, but I'm still a little uneasy. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:01, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Harold worth an article? St John's Church, Wimbledon?
 * I'm not sure on Harold: it's difficult to separate him from his brother a lot of the time, but I'll have a hunt round and see what there is. - SchroCat (talk) 10:57, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I've vaguely had the same thought about brother Harold. I think we could scrape enough material together, but I'm not quite convinced from my encounters with him during Albertine researches that he is definitely notable. Borderline, I'd say. Happy to have a joint go if you fancy it, SchroCat, and see if we think the result meets notability guidelines.  Tim riley  talk    09:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


 * the local St Silas' Church in Lozells. - local strikes me as unnecessary, as you have the name of his church as well
 * In 1904 he also began to work for a second music publisher, Chappell & Co, a third in 1907 (the Columbia Graphophone Company) and a fourth in 1910, when he worked for Elkin & Co. - aren't such sentences supposed to have parallel structures?
 * In 1912 the composer and cellist Auguste van Biene offered a prize for a new work to complement his popular piece The Broken Melody. Ketèlbey was the winner of the competition with a new work, The Phantom Melody, which became his first major success. - new work ... new work — Chris Woodrich (talk)


 * After three weeks the case ended with the judge finding against Columbia and Ketèlbey. - so what remunerations was he forced to make?
 * I've removed his name: the case was against Columbia and AWK was their chief witness, rather than a named party, so I've altered is slightly to make that clearer. - SchroCat (talk) 11:33, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * His music was popular on the continent and his obituarist in The Times later reported that one Viennese critic considered that "Ketèlbey's music ... came second only to that of ... Johann Strauss and Franz Lehár", while continental audiences often called him "The English Strauss". - strikes me as too many conjunctions
 * ...and strictly speaking, if he's ranked behind Strauss and Lehar, he is in third place in the triumvirate! I'd replace "second only to that of" with "behind only that of". Brianboulton (talk) 11:53, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Tweaked - thanks again brian (and for the Caprice link too. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:53, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Aren't songs written in title case? You do it below ("My Lady Héroïne")
 * Bells across the Meadows - In italics or quotes? Link on first mention (in the lede too) — Chris Woodrich (talk) 06:34, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Many thanks Chris: all dealt with, I hope, except the first, and I'd like Tim's view on that one. Much appreciated as always! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:36, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I've added a line or two. My thanks to Chris, too.  Tim riley  talk    09:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Support - Nice work — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:01, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Chris - much appreciated! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:43, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Support: For some reason, Ketelbey has always irritated me – I think it's that pretentious accent (maybe I will adopt a circumflex and become Bôulton) – but I did my stuff at peer review and have chipped in with a few more tweaks, above. Not sure he deserves such a  quality article (perhaps by "the English Strauss" they meant Levi), but there we are. Good work, chaps. Brianboulton (talk) 15:39, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Brian. I know he's not to everyone's taste - a little twee, perhaps, a little too populist, maybe, but some of his work is actually quite good! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:43, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Comments by Johnbod
A good piece of work that I'm ready to support, but a couple of niggles: Johnbod (talk) 18:44, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "In the following year he wrote Wedgewood Blue—..." - is that right? It is of course a common howler for Wedgwood and their famous blue.
 * v. cross with self for missing that after recent work on RVW with his Wedgwood ancestry. Thank you, Johnbod.  Tim riley  talk    19:29, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "In 1921 Ketèlbey moved from his home in St John's Wood, where he had been living for the previous seven years, to Frognal, a fashionable area of Hampstead,..." somehow "fashionable" doesn't seem right for Frognal, even in 1921. Solidly respectable, with an arty fringe, more like.
 * "He spent the remainder of the year staying in hotels in Southern Britain..." so, like England then? Or even southern England? No caps needed I think. No article for the South Coast, where he probably actually was.
 * Many thanks Johnbod, both for your comments and tweaks. I've addressed these as you've suggested. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 19:02, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Support: Per above - points dealt with. Johnbod (talk) 14:15, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Johnbod for your support, and more importantly, for your thoughts and comments: all hugely appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:37, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Three quick thoughts - (1) was it really the "Convert Orchestra", or should that be "Concert"? (2) Do we really need wikilinks to the individual musical notes in "D E C C A"? I doubt anyone is going to divert to read about C (musical note), for example, so would piping "musical notes" to link to Chromatic scale work better? (3) The final image for me runs down into the notes/references/sources - would a clear at the end of the text be inappropriate? I don't have the time for a detailed read/review but I did very much enjoy reading this article about a composer I knew little if anything about beforehand. Benchèrlite (talk) 13:47, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * All three dealt with, as per your suggestions, M Benchèrlite. Very much appreciated! -SchröCat (talk) 14:37, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 14:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.