Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alice Ayres/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 21:07, 27 September 2009.

Alice Ayres

 * Nominator(s): –  iride  scent  18:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Ayres is almost forgotten today, but was once a major news story. This is an unusual article in that it's almost entirely an "... in popular culture" section, but it's the extraordinary public reaction to her death, and the snapshot it provides of changing social attitudes in the period, that makes her noteworthy. – iride  scent  18:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments Wow, really interesting article! I was taken aback by the "unassessed article" status, but pleasantly surprised at its lack of "issues"... if you know what I mean. I ran the tools test, and one of the links has a problem. The hounslow.gov website has cookie issues. I don't know if that is going to be an issue later or not, nor do I know how you might want to address it. Just fyi. Second, I didn't fully understand this element of the alt t "Stylised black and white engraving in the style of Edward Burne-Jones." I think that if a vision impaired person were reading that, s/he might not understand what the style of Edward Burne-Jones is. Exaggerated, sentimental black and white engraving? overly sentimental? don't know. Probably it needs attention. That's all for now. I'll be interesting to see what others make of this. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The Hounslow website shouldn't really cause an issue; although it requests cookies, it's a legitimate local government website and the link certainly works. It's only used as a citation for the location of her grave, which isn't (or shouldn't be) contentious (especially given that the reference in question is immediately next to a photograph, taken less than a month ago, of a large red gravestone with "Alice Ayres" carved on it). I used the local authority because – as the responsible body (sic) for the cemetery – they're the most reliable source for who they have buried there. It's easily replaced if it causes problems.
 * I considered alternative wordings for the alt-text, but in the end went with "the style of Edward Burne-Jones". It's such a distinctive style, and doesn't really have an alternative name as it's so associated with him. I think it's possible for alt-text to get patronising; yes, it's useful to describe images for the benefit of the visually impaired or those using screen readers, but our blind readers are able to look up Edward Burne-Jones if they want more of an explanation. I'll wait and see what the "alt text regulars" say on the matter. – iride  scent  19:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * When I first reviewed this article I thought the alt text was OK and so was silent. I was just now to give an opinion here and so here it is. I agree that visually-impaired readers can look up Burne-Jones to interpret the alt text, and that the article should not patronize readers in alt text any more than it should patronize them in article text. On the other hand, WP:ALT  suggests to avoid details such as whether an image is a photograph, or whether it's black-and-white. In this particular image the style is striking; still, since the article focuses on the image's content rather than its style, the alt text should too, and I suggest that the alt text should lead with the content and put the stylistic issues toward the end. Eubulides (talk) 16:54, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The reason I included that "black and white engraving" is because the accompanying text talks about a painting, but the image used is an drawing of the painting, rather than the painting itself. It can certainly be taken out if you don't think it's useful including it. – iride  scent  15:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's no big deal and it's fine either way. But now that you've drawn my attention to the adjacent article text (which I hadn't read before) doesn't WP:ALT apply here? The alt text need not repeat description that already appears in adjacent text. Eubulides (talk) 04:35, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Good point - that's an artifact of me copying the alt-text from another article which didn't give the wording in the text. Removed. – iride  scent  18:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC) Actually, I think it makes sense leaving it here even though it means repetition. It needs (I think) to be described in the text—I assume many readers would have no reason to recognise a 19th century British naval or London Fire Brigade uniform and thus would miss the significance were it not explained—but removing the description from the alt-text would leave a confusing "why isn't this being described?" gap to those using screen readers. –  iride  scent  19:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There nothing wrong with cookies. Checklinks only posts a message since it could confirm that the link was not dead.  — Dispenser 04:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Sources, dabs, links All fine. RB88 (T) 01:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. Great article; fascinating; places the subject in broader descriptive and analytical frameworks. This is impressive work. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Image review: No issues. Stifle (talk) 15:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support I read this article the other day, while reviewing the related Postman's Park FA, and thought then that it was very well put together.  JN 466  20:54, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment This isn't anything that would keep this article from qualifying to be a FA, but I noticed that the two articles Postman's_Park and Alice_Ayres use two different pictures of the same tiles (File:AliceAyres.jpg and File:Alice_Ayres.jpg) and the picture used in the Alice Ayers article is the one of lower quality.  Caleb Jon talk 06:56, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't agree with this one at all, quite aside from "quality" being entirely subjective. The image used in this article shows the memorial tile front-on, and is used to make the text as visible as possible as it's the wording of the memorial that's being illustrated; the image used in Postman's Park is photographed from an angle, encompasses a broader swathe of the surrounding area, and is used to illustrate William De Morgan's tiling designs. – iride  scent  15:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

--DavidCane (talk) 22:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support with a few comments (finally remembered to look at this):
 * "A secular canonisation"
 * Might want to link "mechanisation in agriculture" to threshing machine, which has a brief section on its impact, or to Swing Riots which expands on the theme.
 * Whilst some of the traditional relationships between the labouring rural poor and the Lord of the Manor might have endured up to the start of the industrial revolution, feudalism, with all its connotations of serfs, villiens and droit de seigneur, had effectively died out by the end of the Tudor period.
 * Clarify that the Albert medal was the first civilian bravery award rather than first civilian honour.
 * Depiction in literature and art
 * "Ayres was coming to be seen..." needs to have some sort of time related anchor to indicate when this was happening. The following paragraph starts "In 1890" so presumably this paragraph relates to the late 1880s.
 * "F. J. Cross's influential Beneath the Banner, who remarked..." should probably be "F. J. Cross's influential Beneath the Banner, in which he remarked..."
 * Changing attitudes and differing perceptions
 * Is it clear that the misrepresentation of her relationship to the Chandlers was deliberate? Could it have simply been that, as none of the adults survived, it was not realised at the time of her death that she was the children's aunt and some of the later retellers of her story did not know?


 * I don't link "mechanisation of agriculture" just because there are so many things to which it could be linked - everything from threshing machine to cotton gin to superphosphate. If it were linked to anything, it ought to be British Agricultural Revolution, but that article is such a mess I don't really want to direct people towards it. Frankly, if someone doesn't know what "mechanisation" or "agriculture" means, they probably haven't worked out how to turn their computer on yet.
 * I'm carefully using the phrase "feudal economy", not feudalism. It can be sourced to pretty much any economic history of Europe that the British feudal economy—as opposed to the feudal society—ends with the Inclosure Acts of the 18th & 19th centuries.
 * As far as I'm aware, the Albert Medal was the first British official honour open to civilians of all classes (unless you count the Sea Gallantry Medal) not just the first bravery award; earlier official honours given to civilians, such as Freedom of the City of London, were only awarded to landowners or members of particular companies or guilds which weren't open to the peasantry. The Victoria Cross was the first British honour awarded to all classes, but was explicitly for military personnel.
 * Added a date for "was coming to be seen"
 * Reworded.
 * It's impossible to speculate on motives, unless someone were find "Note to self: must fabricate sources" in a diary. While some of those later covering the story (including Watts) were presumably relying on secondary sources and thus didn't know that Ayres and the Chandlers were related, it's stretching things beyond reasonable doubt to believe that those writing at the time weren't aware. The adults died in the fire, true, but most of the eyewitnesses to the fire would have been neighbours who would have known what Ayres's relationship to the family was; Ayres survived for two days after the fire and gave a full testimony of what happened; the award from the Royal Society for the Protection of Life from Fire was given to Alice's father who (one would hope) would have been aware that two of his daughters, his son-in-law and two of his grandchildren were dead and would have had no reason to hide the fact. – iride  scent  20:01, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure if you've seen these as there are no references to The Times in the article:
 * The Times report of the inquest into the fire (28 April 1885 edition) records that Charles Chandler, Henry's brother and manager of the shop, made it clear that Alice was not a domestic servant but Mary's sister; so the relationship was public knowledge at the time.
 * At the inquest on Alice Ayres' death (The Times 30 April), her relationship was repeated by Frederick Ayres (described as a Butler). Her father's address is given as 33 Magdala Streeet, Isleworth. Alice's statement is reported by her father that she raised the alarm with Henry and Mary then returned to the children. An eyewitness account from a police Sergeant Hazel states that she landed head first on the "bed" rather than missing it.--DavidCane (talk) 22:24, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It was definitely known and reported from the start that she was related to the Chandlers, which is the point I was trying to make above and in the article (that history was retrospectively rewritten to hide the relationship, rather than just good-faith misreporting).
 * Hadn't seen the second Times source you mention. Local papers (the South London Press, Southwark Recorder and South London Observer) say she hit the pavement, and I'm marginally more inclined to believe those as they're more likely to have been based on eyewitness accounts. Given that the "bed" was being held up, I'd have thought that even landing on it head-first wouldn't have caused fatal spinal injuries (OR, I know). Beneath the Banner - which admittedly is a decidedly unreliable source - says "She jumped—but, to the horror of that anxious admiring throng below, her body struck against the projecting shop-sign, and rebounded, falling with terrific force on to the hard pavement below", which does seem to be the version of events given by most accounts at the time. (Assuming this drawing is accurate, and I've no reason to doubt it, that seems to make sense as well.) –  iride  scent  22:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Suggestion: this should be renamed to Death of Alice Ayres – it's almost entirely about her death. Her actual life is described in one paragraph. It's not so much Alice Ayre's life, but more for her death. As you say in the nomination, the reaction to her death is what makes her notable. She was just an ordinary servant.  Majorly  talk  16:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd oppose that. Articles on people who are only famous due to the manner of their deaths aren't particularly unusual on Wikipedia, and Johnny Micheal Spann, William George Hawtry Bankes, Rachel Corrie, 'H'. Jones, Mary Jo Kopechne etc are all at their name rather than "Death of...". Murder victims are an exception because in their case, it's been decided that the crime is what's notable; plus, in these cases the murderer is sometimes more notable than the victim, and it avoids messy problems with naming. In Ayres's case, it's her death that made her notable, but it's the very fact that so little of her life was documented that allowed movements from the suffragettes to the white supremacists, to project their own ideas that she'd led whatever they happened to consider a perfect life; that's why that long quote from Beneath the Banner ("She had tried to do her best always. Her loving tenderness to the children committed to her care and her pure gentle life were remarked by those around her before there was any thought of her dying a heroic death. So, when the great trial came, she was prepared; and what seems to us Divine unselfishness appeared to her but simple duty.") is included. I didn't want this article to become a quotefarm, and intentionally limited the art-and-literature to a representative sample illustrating the development of descriptions of her life and death, the way she fit into the whole peculiarly Victorian "die a good death" cult, and how those promoting the then-modern concept of secular heroism were appropriating the iconography of the disintegrating Church of England. Go through inspirational books and poetry collections from the late 19th century and you'll find reams of the stuff. – iride  scent  19:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the current title works and conforms better to the principle of least surprise. -- JN  466  19:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Generally support, 1a. I say "generally" because I haven't been through the whole article. Please note User:Tony1/Beginners'_guide_to_the_Manual_of_Style: not normally after -ly. The relationship between some of the clauses needed slight repairs—just something to watch in the future. Tony   (talk)  09:56, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * With the exception of "present-day", "well-received" and so on (where I think the hyphens make it flow more naturally) I'm not seeing any hyphens even potentially out of place, other than in direct quotations (where I've preserved the original syntax, even though Victorian Southern English punctuation, spelling and capitalisation can look strange to modern eyes) - definitely not saying you're wrong, but can you point out the sort of thing you mean? – iride  scent  17:58, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Support on sourcing. I was asked to check something on the page a while ago and performed a spot source check. Iridescent is normally very good with sources and the article reflected this. I don't think the page has really changed since that time, and I didn't find any problems. In terms of the rest of the page, the story was always a strong one, so, I'm a little biased towards it. The power of the story carries over into the Wikipedia version, which is good. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:21, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.