Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Aliso Creek (Orange County)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:13, 6 September 2009.

Aliso Creek (Orange County)

 * Nominator(s): Shannon1  talk   contribs  00:27, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because it has passed GA, received major cleanup, received a peer review, and received another major cleanup in and after the process, and received highly positive opinions on the WP:RIVER talk page. I feel this article is now referenced over enough and of a standard enough to reach FA. I know most of the river FA's are very small streams - this is the first one that flows directly into the ocean. Shannon1 talk   contribs  00:27, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment. Images need alt text as per WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 07:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  16:19, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing that. The existing alt text is a good start, but there are some problems:
 * Alt text is missing for several images, including Image:Aliso Creek with Saddleback in distance.JPG, Image:Laguna Niguel Lake.jpg, Image:Lake Washington Ship Canal Fish Ladder pamphlet - ocean phase Steelhead.jpg, the lead image Image:Alisocreek Bridge.JPG, and others. Please click the "alt text" button in the toolbox at the upper right of this review page to see the complete list.
 * Done; but it won't show in the alt viewer. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  05:56, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, the alt viewer is currently busted where it looks at an old (cached) version of the article. However, it is currently (correctly) showing that 7 images lack alt text. Of these, 4 (the highway sign shields) are purely decorative and should be marked with "|link=" as per WP:ALT; the other 3 need alt text. Eubulides (talk) 06:22, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * For Image:AlisoCreekReliefMap.jpg the alt text "Topography of the creek's watershed" doesn't convey much useful info to the visually impaired reader. What does that image say about the topography? The alt text should tell us that. (done)
 * Similarly, for Image:Alisocreek orange map.png the alt text "There are 8 cities in the Aliso Creek watershed." is a bit terse. Some cities should be named at least, perhaps the ones at either end, and the role of Sulpher Creek in that illustration should be mentioned, shouldn't it? (done)
 * The alt text "A large storm drain outlet on the right side of the creek" is mostly a repeat of part of the caption. Alt text should avoid repeating the caption, and should say what extra useful info the image tells you. (done)
 * Eubulides (talk) 02:45, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for working on it. Aside from the images missing alt text, as noted above, I currently see these problems:
 * In maps, please replace phrases like "upper right (northeast)" with "northeast". The "upper right" is a relatively unimportant detail, whereas the "northeast" is the gist of the image. Please see WP:ALT. (done)
 * "The beginning of the canyon the creek cuts through the mountains." is not a sentence. There's a similar problem with "The end of the canyon the creek cuts through the mountains, with the ocean beyond". See WP:ALT. (done)
 * "Large view of the creek's watershed" repeats the caption (see WP:ALT), and doesn't convey the gist of the image well (see WP:ALT). What does that large view look like? (done)
 * The word "hued" is redundant and can be removed. (where?) Image:Laguna Niguel Lake.jpg
 * The word "anadromous" is not something that one can verify from the fish's visual appearance, right? So it should be removed from the alt text as per WP:ALT. (done)
 * Similarly, the "polluted" in "polluted water" is not something that one can verify by looking at the image, and should be removed or moved to the caption. The resulting alt text doesn't convey much useful info that isn't in the caption, and should be reworded to do so.
 * The word "the" in "An artificial concrete waterfall built on the creek" can't be verified just by looking at the image, and needs to be reworded. (done)
 * "Juaneños' to the southwest". Surely that should be "southeast"? (done)
 * "watershed - including". Please use a comma here, or if you must use a dash, please use WP:EMDASH. (done)
 * "Sulphur Creek, at the lower right" should be "Sulphur Creek, in the southeast". (done)
 * Eubulides (talk) 06:22, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The recently-introduced phrase "Drawing of" is not that useful here and can be removed as per WP:ALT.
 * Eubulides (talk) 19:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I see that most of the above items have been fixed, and I've struck them; the only remaining item that's a real problem is the "polluted" one. Can you please fix that? Eubulides (talk) 08:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Which one? Shannon  talk   contribs  sign!  :) 22:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's the alt text for File:Aliso Creek heron and ducklings.JPG. I see no pollution visible there. Eubulides (talk) 03:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * The following deadlinked:
 * http://dms.cityofmissionviejo.org/sirepub/cache/2/xegsy4554lp1fz55iiexx4rl/159152202142009114143515.PDF
 * This link isn't even there. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  04:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.ttsfo.com/alisoviejoeis/Documents/Project%20Documents/Draft%20EIS/3.06%20Water.pdf
 * http://alisocreekinnupdate.com/Main.php?pg=issuesFlood
 * Site is down; will come back later. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  04:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * http://alisocreekinnupdate.com/Main.php?pg=history
 * Site is down; will come back later. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  04:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Current ref 4 (Population in Aliso..) lacks a last access date
 * Done. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  04:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What makes the following reliable sources?
 * http://www.localhikes.com/Hikes/ValidoTrail_4472.asp
 * This is only for one distance figure. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  23:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.aspx?trailid=HGS511-033
 * This is only for a place name, Aliso Peak. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  23:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * http://tchester.org/fb/geology/temecula_canyon.html
 * Nothing wrong with this! Shannon  talk   SIGN!  23:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The site gives its sources as: "The Rise and Fall of San Diego, Patrick L. Abbott, 1999, Sunbelt; Geology of San Diego County, Diane M. Burns, ed., 1997, Sunbelt; Recency and Character of Faulting Along the Elsinore Fault Zone in Southern Riverside County, 1977, Special Report 131, California Division of Mines and Geology, by Michael P. Kennedy; A Field Guide to Coastal Southern California, Robert P. Sharp, 1978, Kendall-Hunt."
 * http://www.efgh.com/bike/redrouteorange.htm (removed)
 * This is only for one distance figure, how long the Aliso Creek bike path runs beside the creek. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  17:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.daytrippen.com/alisocanyon.html
 * Added another citation to confirm the material in that section. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  03:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.cagenweb.com/orange/historybitsbyVikkiGray.html
 * What's wrong with this? Shannon  talk   SIGN!  23:21, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.light-headed.com/asite/laguna/laguna_history/south_laguna_1.php (removed)
 * That reference is in the wrong place; will correct. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  23:22, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Aren't current refs 5 and 23 the same ref? (O'Neil, Stephen et al.) Should be combined.
 * Current ref 27 is www.ocwatershes.com, but is lacking consistency with the following two refs for the same site (Lacks the italicised stuff..) (done)
 * Current ref 30 (3.6 Water..) lacks a publisher (done)
 * Current ref 35 (Los Angelos Times...) has the publisher run into the title, they should be separrate. (done)
 * Current ref 39 (Aliso Beach...) lacks a publisher. (done)
 * Current ref 41 (OCParks...) lacks a publisher (done)
 * Current ref 43 (Wood Canyon Trails) lacks a publisher (done)
 * Current ref 47 (Aliso and Wood..) lacks a publisher (done)
 * Is it latimes.com or Los Angelos Times? Also, if you go with the second, you need to italicise it.
 * Done. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  22:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:29, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Working... Shannon  talk   SIGN!  23:10, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed your strike throughs, generally at FAC the person who makes the comment/concern strikes through when they feel the issues is resolved. I changed them to little "dones" after the statement so you can keep track of what you've done. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not using these sites for extreme claims or much information in the article; most of the article's info comes from the USACE, Orange County Watershed, Orange County Flood Control Division, and LA Times. As I mentioned up there, most of these are just for one figure, such as a distance or a date. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  17:51, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How much or how little has little bearing on whether they are reliable. We need to use high quality sources, it's part of the FA criteria. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The FA criterion 1c states that "Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported with citations" (italics mine for emphasis). Featured articles are our best work. Therefore, we expect that FAs use the highest-quality sources, just as we expect "brilliant" prose, professional-standard presentation (adherence to MOS), and complete coverage of the topic. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you take a look at the article I've actually started to add other citations to reliable sources after the ones mentioned up there... Shannon  talk   SIGN!  20:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:30, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  05:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Is the nominator still responding ? There are many old, unstruck items above?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 21:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes... just waiting for a second opinion. Shannon  talk   SIGN!  23:29, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment I intend to copyedit this and will leave questions here as I work through the article. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 14:08, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I see Finetooth has pointed out most of the issues I planned to copyedit in the first two sections (thanks). I still have one major concern with something in the lead. The second sentence reads The stream rises in the foothills of the Santa Ana Mountains, near the unincorporated city of Portola Hills, ... then the first sentence of the third paragraph of the lead says Pollution, floods and development of the watershed and surrounding Orange County have blighted the water quality and wildlife of the creek since the 1960s,[6] when urban and suburban development of the eight incorporated cities[5] .... The File:Aliso creek map.jpg also shows only eight cities, one of which is Portola Hills, but that is not incorporated. Reading the Portola Hills article, I see it was a Census-designated place (CDP) that was incorporated into the existing city of Lake Forest in the year 2000. The Geobox however does not refer to Portola Hills for the location of the source, but instead places the source in the Cleveland National Forest. The "Course" section of the article mentions both Portola Hills and the National Forest. There are several issues here - some are relatively minor (in the lead I would use the full link Portola Hills, California, and not the redirect Portola Hills, in its current state I would also refer to it as a CDP and not an "unincorporated city") but the most important by far is that the article does not accurately reflect the current state of the creek. It now rises (and has done so for the past nine years) in the city of Lake Forest. Now I think it would be OK to say something like The stream rises in the foothills of the Santa Ana Mountains in the Cleveland National Forest, near the Portola Hills area of the city of Lake Forest, ... but as it currently stands this second sentence is incorrect and contradicts the later lead sentence about 8 incorporated cities. I also note the "Course" section and map would have to be updated to reflect the proper city.

Hope this helps, I can be this nitpicky for the whole article if desired, just let me know here. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 13:54, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment: I thought I'd pop in here too. You've done a lot of work to get the article this far, and I'd like to see you succeed. I've done a close reading of the lead and the first section and recorded my thoughts below. If you'd like me to go on with this, I'd be glad to. Just post a note here.

Lead
 * "The name, of Spanish origin, was given to the creek by Spanish conquistadors in the 1700s, although there are now many places in California that use the name." - Delete "of Spanish origin" since you've already explained in the first sentence that it's Spanish? (done)
 * "As of 2004, the 30.4 mi2 watershed... " - If you round to the nearest tenth in miles, shouldn't you round to the nearest tenth in square kilometers? You can do that easily by adding a rounding parameter, in this case "|1" to the template. (done)
 * "that dates from the late Eocene to the Pliocene eras" - Would it be helpful to readers to add date ranges? Also, these two are technically epochs rather than eras. I think it's OK to avoid that complication by saying "that dates from the late Eocene to the Pliocene".
 * "The creek's watershed then became a major portion of the 1842 Rancho Niguel Mexican Land Grant, granted to Juan Avila and later purchased by Lewis Moulton." - Tighten slightly by deleting ", granted"? (done)
 * Lewis Moulton. He is mentioned in the lead, but I don't see him in the main text. (Yes, he is, in the 20th century section.)
 * "and its watershed as a municipal water source date back to the early 20th century" - Tighten by deleting "back"? (done)
 * "Pollution continues to be a major problem for the creek, which has received many water quality and feasibility studies, but in similarity to many other Orange County streams, little work has been done to correct pollution in the creek." - Suggestion: "Pollution continues to be a major problem for the creek, the subject of many water quality and feasibility studies, but, as with many other Orange County streams, little has been done to correct it." (done)

Name
 * "The Native American name of Aliso Creek has almost for certain been lost. The time of origin of the current name of Aliso Creek is not known, but it is certain that the name was given by Spanish conquistadors sometime between the 1750s and the 1800s." - What is the source for these claims? (done)
 * "Other derivatives for Aliso Creek's name have arose since then - including "Los Alisos Creek" and "Alisos Creek"." - This should be "have arisen" rather than "have arose". Also, the spaced hyphen should be replaced by a spaced en dash or an unspaced em dash, thus: "then – including" or "then&mdash;including". Ditto for all of the other uses of the spaced hyphen in the article. You might also consider using a comma rather than a dash in at least some of these cases. (done with derivatives, will work on hyphens eventually)
 * "One road, Aliso Creek Road, is named for the creek, although ironically it only crosses the creek once and does not parallel it." - Delete "ironically" since it is an editorial comment that would be hard to verify? (done)


 * Finetooth (talk) 05:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Further Finetooth comments: Thanks for your attention to many of the suggestions above. Here is another set of comments that apply down through the "Water quality" subsection.

Etymology *Nitpick. It would be better to flip the order of the refs [8][4] to put them in ascending order, [4][8]. (done)

Course Discharge
 * "The creek crosses under Trabuco Road and Jeronimo Road; the latter was once the site of a stream gauge." - Wikilink stream gauge? (It's linked in the "Discharge" subsection but should be linked on first use.) (done)
 * "The southeast-flowing Dairy Fork was once a prominent canyon that followed the present-day form of State Route 73, until it was flattened in the 1960s and 1970s to build the city of Aliso Viejo." - I find this a bit confusing. Would this be better: "Southeast-flowing Dairy Fork once flowed in a prominent canyon that was filled in the 1960s and 1970s to build the city of Aliso Viejo; State Route 73 runs above the former canyon"? Or something like that?> (done)
 * "After receiving the fork, Aliso Creek passes into four massive culverts that cross under Pacific Park Drive, whose fill nearly bisects the valley." - Delete "whose fill nearly bisects the valley"? It sounds like original research, though it might not be. In any case, it's a bit hard to imagine and probably isn't needed. (done)
 * "which is about 4.5 miles (7.2 km) in length... " - Nitpick. Tighten slightly to "long"? (done)
 * "Flowing almost due south through a valley with slopes dissected with many deep side canyons... " - "By" rather than "with"?
 * "as it enters private property less than 1-mile (1.6 km) from the mouth" - Delete hyphen? (done
 * In reviewing the changes you made, I noticed a couple of other problems. You describe Dairy Fork as southeast-flowing, but the watershed map in the geobox shows it as southwest-flowing. In another place, you say the main stem "makes a bend to the southeast then veers back south". Should this be "southwest" as well?
 * "The former received runoff from about 95% of the watershed, while the latter received runoff from 7.91 square miles (20.5 km2)... " - Rounding? (done)
 * Caption. "Due to tides and erosion, its mouth is ever-changing and never the same." - Delete "and never the same"? (done)
 * Caption. "Due to tides and erosion, its mouth is ever-changing and never the same." - Delete "and never the same"? (done)

Geology
 * "The Santa Ana Mountains, which now bound the creek to the north and east... " "Border" rather than "now bound"? (done)
 * "It also happens that the uplift of the hills changed the course of Aliso Creek's largest tributary, Sulphur Creek,... " - Possibly tighten to "The uplift also changed the course of... "? (done)
 * "Wisconsinian glaciation" - Would Wisconsin Glacial Episode, linked directly to the relevant subsection of the the "Last glacial period" article be better? (done; originally tried to do that, but wouldn't work)
 * "During the Wisconsinian glaciation, when the San Joaquin Hills had begun to uplift, the climate of Southern California changed radically. From an arid, semi-desert climate, sea levels dropped as water became locked up in ice during the Wisconsinian ice age, as it is now known. At that time, Southern California's climate changed to become reminiscent of that of the Pacific Northwest. Suddenly, prodigious rainfall turned the ephemeral streams of the region into large and powerful rivers." - Tighten for clarity? Suggestion: "During the Wisconsin episode, after the San Joaquin Hills had begun to uplift, the climate of Southern California changed radically from arid to wet. Prodigious rainfall gradually turned the small streams of the region into large and powerful rivers." (done)
 * "The drop in sea level also helped in the process, allowing the rivers to flow steeper and faster and thus to possess more erosive power." - Suggestion: "A drop in sea level during the glacial period allowed rivers to flow more rapidly and to erode with power." (done)
 * "It is estimated that at that time period, Aliso Creek was a 16-mile (26 km) waterway... " - Delete "period"? (done)
 * "By then, the rivers and streams had slowed down to their original volume." - "dwindled" rather than "slowed down"? (done)

''Geography
 * "The ridge at the headwaters of the creek (see Course) separates the Aliso Creek watershed from Santiago Creek." - I'm not sure it works well to embed a "jump back" link (see Course) like this in the text or that you need to do it. I'd be inclined to delete it. (done)
 * "Surrounding Interstate 5, which can be said to bisect the watershed, is the primary urban area in the Aliso Creek watershed - consisting of Lake Forest, Laguna Woods, and Laguna Hills." - It might be useful to say whether I-5 cuts across the watershed lengthwise or crosswise and in what direction. (done)
 * "bordering a broad alluvial valley which Aliso Creek has deposited many sediments in." - Move "in" to the left in the sentence? Suggestion: "bordering a broad alluvial valley in which Aliso Creek has deposited many sediments". (done)

Water quality
 * "adversely effecting the ecology and wildlife of the creek by means of elevated flow level (urban runoff)... " - "affecting" rather than "effecting".
 * "The creek is part of the Clean Water Act list of impaired waters, which is defined as "impaired by one or more pollutants that do not meet one or more water quality standards" - Compress to "The creek is part of the Clean Water Act list of waters 'impaired by one or more pollutants that do not meet one or more water quality standards' "?
 * "This is sourced from pet waste, fertilizer, manure, and other organic pollutants that are washed into the creek. This results in a bacterial level 34% higher than levels declared safe under California law." - Maybe combine these to avoid starting three sentences in a row with "This is"? Suggestion: "This comes from pet waste, fertilizer, manure, and other organic pollutants that wash into the creek and raise the bacteria level 34 percent higher than levels declared safe under California law."
 * The quote is too short to set off as a blockquote, and the paragraph could nicely be attached to the bigger one above it. Suggestion: "A local activist commented that the water pollution problem has long been ignored by the county: " ...we're sick and tired of it. It's nothing but a cesspool stew, full of pigeons and pigeon droppings and nearly 90-degree water, right at the beach!"
 * "after having been bitten by coyotes that had drank" - "that had drunk"
 * "Also in 2002, tests in November of that year detected small amounts of the virus that causes... " - Delete "of that year"?
 * "It prevails in urban runoff because this source of runoff is created by tap water, whether used for irrigation, car washing, or other daily activities, flowing down storm drains." - Suggestion: "It prevails in urban runoff, which consists largely of chlorinated tap water used for irrigation, car washing, and other daily activities."
 * "Ironically, carp... " - Delete "ironically"?
 * "to exceed 90 degrees Fahrenheit (32 degrees Celsius)" - Wikipedia's standard format for this is 90 F.
 * "warned in a 1997 study that up to $4.2 million USD in damages" - No need to specify USD in a US-centric article.
 * "Spectacular events have also occurred at English Canyon Creek, an upper tributary of Aliso Creek,... " - Delete "also" since the preceding sentence describes a possible spectacular event but not one that has actually occurred.
 * Finetooth (talk) 22:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.