Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alister Murdoch/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ucucha 01:46, 26 August 2011.

Alister Murdoch

 * Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 02:25, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

This nom follows on directly from the recently successful FAC for Valston Hancock&mdash;similar subject matter, style and sourcing. From 1954 to 1969, the RAAF was headed by a series of Chiefs whose most frequently cited common attribute was their status as former cadets of the Royal Military College, Duntroon&mdash;that is, they studied as Army officers before joining the Air Force. They were Air Marshals McCauley, Scherger, Hancock, and Murdoch. The first three have been through FAC, and now it’s time for the last of the quartet, Murdoch, whose article has recently passed GA and MilHist A-Class reviews. Thanks in advance for any input! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:25, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Support on prose per standard disclaimer, having reviewed the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 03:02, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Tks Dank. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Just a note: I've read through all the questions and answers and I agree with all of Ian's replies, except that I don't have any firm answer yet for when to attribute a quote in-text. I'm now asking for attribution more than I used to. - Dank (push to talk) 10:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:29, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Missing bibliographic info for Coulthard-Clark Air Marshals of the RAAF
 * Be consistent in whether you say "Retrieved on" or just "Retrieved"
 * Why is Allen & Unwin wikilinked in Dornan and not Coulthard-Clark? Also, did it change locations? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:29, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Done, tks for spotting all those. A&U may have moved, on the other hand it may be vagaries of political boundaries -- St Leonards and Crows Nest are very close together, and North Sydney in its broadest sense covers both of them -- can only go with what the books themselves say... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Images check out, captions are fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:45, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Tks Nikki! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments – Just several minor ones...
 * Rise to Chief of the Air Staff: Is "fulfil" British English or a typo?
 * Good 'ole British/Australian English -- one "l" at the end.
 * Is "Murdoch was promoted air marshal" missing a "to". or is this customary phrasing for military pages.
 * Heh, it is customary in militarise, however if WP reviewers object to it I don't mind changing... ;-)
 * It isn't customary to wikilink a reference publisher, like in ref 7.
 * Yes but I have linked the publisher in an earlier ref (#4).
 * I didn't mean it the way I phrased it; I wikilink publishers on occasion myself. I was talking about having an external link to a ref publisher, like in refs 7 and 13. That, as far as I know, isn't customary for FAs. This is why I shouldn't review at night...  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 01:08, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't understand the question. - Dank (push to talk) 20:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I think I do now, though I assumed it wasn't a big deal after the comment about not reviewing at night... ;-) I assume it refers to citations 7 and 13. Every FAC I've submitted uses links to external publishers of online refs, if WP doesn't have an article on them. I understood that was customary and it's never been considered an issue all the times I've done it -- that includes the three successfuly FAs immediately preceding this one. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:33, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Minor, but the page number in ref 44 has a space between the p. and number. This is inconsistent with most of the other references. The London Gazette refs are like this as well, but I understand a template forces them to be that way, so I'm not that worried about them.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 03:25, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I like consistency myself and generally modify all citations to match whatever the templates give, so will do so here. Thanks for reviewing! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:54, 6 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Support. I went over this quite thoroughly during the MilHist A-class review and the few concerns I had were addressed there. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   17:33, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Belated thanks, HJ... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments, most minor: — Apterygial talk 05:11, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "employment of helicopters in battle". Why "employment", when "deployment" is (I believe) normally used?
 * "Deployment" is certainly often used but I thought "employment" just as reasonable, and perhaps a bit less jargonistic for the lead.
 * "Knighted in 1966, Murdoch was the fourth in a series of CASs who had been cadets at the Royal Military College, Duntroon, and as such was described by Air Chief Marshal Sir Frederick Scherger as "the last of the professionals"." A couple of points here. First, this isn't mentioned in the body of the article, which seems to focus more (but by no means exclusively) on his weaknesses as Chief of the Air Staff rather than his strengths. Repeating the quote (or even extending it) could help the balance. Second, I don't quite understand the connection here. Was Scherger saying that Murdoch was a "professional" because he had trained at Duntroon (as did Scherger)? Were later Chiefs who had trained elsewhere not subject to the same rigorous training? Clearly I'm not asking for a detailed explanation in the lead, but I feel the quote may need a bit more context.
 * Heh, re. the first point, I can't extend the quote because that's all there is. Re. the second point, the implication is indeed that Scherger was calling him "professional" because of the (shared) Duntroon pedigree, which is why I specifically said "as such". As far as later Chiefs' training went, it wasn't until 20 years after Murdoch that another graduate of a military college (the RAAF's own, this time) was appointed Chief.
 * As I say, it could help both clarity and balance if the quote was repeated in the body, and Murdoch and Scherger's shared pedigree at Duntroon reiterated. Apterygial  talk 14:09, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure of the benefit of putting exactly the same quote in both places, however I wouldn't be averse to moving the quote to the main body, in the context of the Duntroon connection mentioned at the end of Rise to Chief of the Air Staff. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:23, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds fair. Apterygial  talk 05:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Was there something else, Apterygial? It looks like the comment has been moved down. - Dank (push to talk) 20:54, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, forgot to strike this one. No, I'm happy with it. Apterygial  talk 00:06, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * " Budgetary constraints imposed by the Great Depression". The Great Depression didn't directly impose budgetary constraints, it would have required intermediaries (presumably a cut in government defence spending). Perhaps "Budgetary constraints imposed during the Great Depression".
 * Fair enough, as expressed it was probably personifying the Depression a bit...
 * "all were determined to serve with the RAAF and more than pleased with the prospect of entering their chosen service early." Another "were" before "more than pleased" would aid flow.
 * Heh, believe or not I was thinking the same thing but thought I'd wait till the FAC had progressed -- so no prob... ;-)
 * I find it interesting that an RAAF officer was given command of an RAF squadron; was this a common occurrence? Did the two services regularly exchange airmen?
 * Not uncommon -- the RAAF welcomed the opportunity to give its officers exposure to the RAF's wider sphere of operations.
 * It doesn't strike me as enough simply to link to Morotai Mutiny when you mention it in passing; if it is important enough to mention a (brief) explanation would be useful.
 * Okay, I can probably put a sentence of context.
 * "would provide a "lifeline" for Australian forces" Who are you quoting here? Does it really need the quotation marks?
 * The word is straight from the source and seemed so appropriate I didn't want to change it, which is why I put it in quotes. I didn't really feel that saying "according to..." was particularly necessary for one word, however.
 * I reckon you could get away without the quotation marks, but it's not a big deal, so I've struck the point. Apterygial  talk 05:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Air Marshal Sir Alister Murray Murdoch" "Murdoch was promoted air marshal". Is it normal to have capitals when the rank is used as a title but not when it is simply a rank?
 * I prefer seeing them always in caps myself but the guideline here is only when used as a title.
 * "He further contended that helicopter operations in Malaysia had afforded the RAAF sufficient experience in the type of conditions they might face in Vietnam, though the former theatre offered "little if any hostile opposition, and there was none of the insertion and extraction of SAS patrols which was to become such an important part of the RAAF's Vietnam operations"." Is Murdoch being quoted here (which would be odd because it undermines his argument to some extent)?
 * It was another RAAF guy who wasn't notable in WP terms so I didn't name him, but I could put his position to clarify -- thanks for pointing that out.
 * "would contribute to the RAAF's battlefield helicopters being transferred to the Army." Might flow better as "would contribute to the transfer of the RAAF's battlefield helicopters to the Army."
 * Actually I might alter to "would contribute to the government's decision to transfer the RAAF's battlefield helicopters to the Army."
 * English Electric Canberra is linked both in Rise to Chief of the Air Staff and Chief of the Air Staff and Vietnam.
 * Okay, will lose the second.
 * "on what were later described as "misleading" grounds". Described by whom?
 * The RAAF's official post-war history -- I can spell that out.
 * The article is very dense with links. Do we need (for example) pundits, Malta, helicopters, Darwin and reconnaissance?
 * The original (B-Class) version of this dates back a couple of years when we did tend to link more than necessary. I'm quite happy to lose all of the above except Darwin, as I think it's helpful to link cities. Many thanks for taking the time to review! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Support. All of my concerns were dealt with, or satisfactorily answered (save one, but I'm confident it will be solved). Apterygial talk 05:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks mate, just had a go at that last one as discussed. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:59, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Support - no significant issues noted.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:27, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Cheers, Storm. Ian Rose (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.