Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alleyway/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:39 June 19, 2008.

Alleyway
Self-nominator I'm nominating this article because I feel it to have gone as far as it can, and it discusses the full detail of the subject matter as informatively as possible for every reader to understand. Please be as detailed as possible with any issues you have with the article so I may tackle them as efficiently as I can.Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments


 * Use cite web for web citations so they are uniform. Title, publisher, URL, and accessdate are needed at the minimum, and some are missing those.
 * Page ranges such as "pg 4-5. Nintendo." need en dash per WP:DASH
 * "Alleyway is good -- but" — use an em dash per WP:DASH
 * "in Japan in 1989,[3] and was " &rarr; unlink the year per MOS:UNLINKYEARS

Gary King ( talk ) 15:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The use of cite web is not required, although it is required that citations be in a uniform format. Karanacs (talk) 15:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I know, but it is easier for me to ask that cite web be used in most cases because it does all the work for you. I've sometimes asked that all references simply be uniform but have had to revisit the article several times because a few things were still missing. Gary King ( talk ) 19:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Since cite templates are not required on featured articles (or any articles), and since some of us hate them, you'd be better to refer nominators to WP:CITE/ES. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 03:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * Current ref 2 is lacking a publisher Video Game Rebirth ...
 * Same for current ref 5 Nintendo Database Alleyway...
 * What makes the following sites reliable:
 * http://www.vgrebirth.org/
 * Database site being used to verify release dates and version codes for the different versions of the cartridge, on par with Gamefaqs's means of gathering release date information. German version release information correlates with review dates from German magazines and version codes shown on auctioned cartridges on eBay.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, but WHY is it a reliable source for this information? Ealdgyth - Talk 00:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As I couldn't find a means to guarantee quality control and because it just relies on submitted material, I ended up removing this as a reference. It's only importance really was to confirm the 1990 germany release date, but that ended up in retrospect being too much detail. The version numbers didn't need a citation due to nintendo's standardizing of them.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * http://www.n-sider.com/index.php
 * N-Sider was created by an IGN Entertainment editor, and the staff have contributed articles to IGN, with a merger discussed at one point that became a partnership between the two for some time.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm. Iffy, and borderline in my mind. I'll leave this out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Is current ref 25 a book? If so, it's missing a lot of blibliographical information including page number (Super Game Boy Nintendo Stragey Guide)
 * The ISBN number doesn't work for that book. I can't find a title by that name at Google either, to correct the ISBN. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It would seem that wasn't a ISBN number listed, but a ASIN number, verifyable by Amazon.com here. From digging around, the book and several SNES strategy guides from Nintendo did not seem to have a ISBN (this one in particular was bundled with the Super Game Boy itself). Will that suffice?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's fine to go with the ASIN number. Main reason I clicked on it was I'd never seen an ISBN number formatted that way, I was curious! Ealdgyth - Talk 16:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Current ref 26 Game Rankings page on Alleyway is lacking publisher
 * Current ref 27 Gamespot Otherreviews page is lacking publisher information
 * Current ref 28 MobyGames page is lacking publisher
 * Current ref 29 http://www.kultpower.de/powerplay_testbericht_extern.php3?im=alleway.jpg what makes it reliable, and do they have permission to repost that review?
 * Game Rankings was the one to link to the scan of the review and used the excerpt mentioned in the article. Beyond that for the site itself I don't know other than it serves as an archive. Should I add a reference to the Game Rankings cited excerpt alongside it?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm. No clue, honestly. I'm not THAT up on copyright law, especially German. Anyone else? Ealdgyth - Talk 00:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well altered the reference to cite the magazine itself, and pointed the reference at the except on MobyGames (it wasn't Game Rankings in the end, mistake on my part). That should clear that one up...I hope.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Current ref 30, is that a journal article? Can we get more bibliographical data perhaps?
 * Otherwise sources look good, links checked out (except for the one above) with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I managed to fix all the errors thus far mentioned at this time, and corrected the citations as needed.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * New Concern - http://www.atarihq.com/tsr/index.html what makes this site reliable? Ealdgyth - Talk 00:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Site owner's information is based upon information covered in book authors (which he lists), and interviews he's conducted. I've changed the reference to a more direct one with ex-Tengen/Atari employee Ed Logg which states the same cited material more directly, and added a book reference that also makes mention of it (Game Over). Will that work?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - Quite a few issues to fix before I can support:
 * Why does the lead focus on the release dates/locations so much? A lead is meant to summarize an article, and as such the lead should mention the gameplay, and reception. It is a general rule of thumb to make sure every heading is covered in the lead in summary form. See WP:LEAD.
 * The release dates as mentioned further in the article played an important role with reception, notably due to the fact that in Japan it didn't compete with Tetris right out of the gate, but in the US and international releases, the two were put side by side.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And? The lead still does not include enough information about gameplay (levels, ball behavior) and you probably should mention some part of Development in the lead too. — Wackymacs ( talk  ~  edits ) 07:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "...much like the game Breakout" - Why not: "similar to Breakout"
 * Fixed.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Paddle speed can be made faster or slower by holding either B or A while moving," - Alright, let's assume the reader is an average joe who doesn't play video games. What is B or A. You might try: ""Paddle speed can be made faster or slower by holding either B or A buttons on the controller while moving," instead.
 * Fixed.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "...When released, the ball will always start off at a downward 45º" - Why not begin instead of start off?
 * Fixed.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The prose is good throughout, but video game jargon needs weeding out.
 * Your page numbers are inconsistent. Sometimes you use "pg." but sometimes only the page number. Please use p. and pp. to precede page number(s).
 * I should have all of these corrected at this time.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope. Check refs 8, 17 (page number in title instead of page parameter), 22, 23, 24, and 30. I might have missed some, so please go over all of them. — Wackymacs ( talk  ~  edits ) 16:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope. Check refs 8, 17 (page number in title instead of page parameter), 22, 23, 24, and 30. I might have missed some, so please go over all of them. — Wackymacs ( talk  ~  edits ) 16:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In current ref 24. "Nintendo Magazinet" - I think you mean Magazine, not Magazinet. Please check all refs for mistakes like this.
 * That actually is not a typo. It's actually a Swedish magazine.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

— Wackymacs ( talk  ~  edits ) 08:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Unreliable sources mentioned by Ealdgyth need resolving.
 * Comment Languages should be indicated for the non-English references (use the relevant parameter in the citation templates). Kariteh (talk) 16:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Added to each one. Should be fixed now.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * Maybe it's just me, but I really have no clue what the game is like after reading the lead. More needs to be said on gameplay, I think.
 * the screenshots (at least the first one) need better FURs. User:Giggy/FURs may help.
 * Fixed.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Also the first one needs a much better description/caption.
 * Fixed.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "until the player has over 10000 points" - does the game end at this stage?
 * "An additional paddle is granted for each one thousand points scored, until the player has over 10000 points." I'm a little confused how that sentence could be misunderstood...every thousand you get an added paddle is awarded until you get over 10000. How could that be taken any other way?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * ""this variant doesn't have much more to offer than the original."" - maybe it's just me, but what original?
 * Added alluded term within brackets.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Electronic Gaming Monthly also reviewed the game, giving it mostly moderate scores of 6/10, 6/10, 5/10 and 3/10." - what do each of these numbers mean?
 * Confused how that could possibly be taken wrong: you have a 3 scores that are midway out of 10 (thus moderate) and one that's below the middle.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but what do each of these scores represent? Gameplay, audio, graphics, etc.? Or something else? giggy (O) 02:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah understood. Added a bit at the end of the sentence describing the scores as covering the game as a whole. Hopefully that'll suffice.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's still unclear to me. "giving it mostly moderate scores of 6/10, 6/10, 5/10 and 3/10 for the game as a whole" is the current reading - the average Joe will have no idea why it was given four numbers, and what each number represents. giggy (O) 03:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "The two reviewers that gave the highest scores did state they felt the design was perfect for the Game Boy, one adding "It's also a very good game that combines some new features...with the original Break-Out theme" and closing with "...Alleyway is good—but a bit long."" - but who were these people?
 * Unknown. I can present you with a scan of the article, but it was a single column that never showed who the writers were.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, that's cool. giggy (O) 02:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

giggy (O) 07:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Support; the only other minor niggling is being discussed now, everything else is fine. giggy (O) 03:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments regarding images:
 * As Giggy mentioned above, the rationales on the non-free images are very weak. They basically just say "being used for illustrative purposes". The rationales need to address WP:NFCC by stating why they significantly contribute to a reader's understanding.
 * Image:Alleyway-balls.PNG should be cleaned up by having the "moment of contact" text edited out - it is unreadable at the image's rendered size in the article, and should be removed anyway per WP:PIFU. Another concern for this image is that it's sourced to Nintendo but has a GFDL license.
 * Image:Alleyway-bonus.gif should be in PNG instead of GIF format per WP:IUP. (It also has two rationales for some reason.)

Kelly hi! 19:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.