Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alpine Chough/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:51, 31 October 2009.

Alpine Chough

 * Nominator(s):  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  13:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because it's been improved since GA, and I need to get this to FA to fulfil the requirements for the Bird project's first Featured Topic. None of the peculiar sexual practices of the Ruff, so sensitive readers need not fear.  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  13:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: Two pictures duplicate "supplementary" and these two are also very similar, the second seems only to add a bit of detail to the first. Consider differentiating. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've removed the ski lift image  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  16:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Re: "convergent evolution" - is there oversimplifications in the article? Snowman (talk) 18:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I understand why the beak of the Australian choughs and the European choughs evolved to be similar, because of he way they both forage for food. I do not understand why the rest of the body should be similar, because one habitats rocky high habitats. What its the evidence that the ancestors were different and did converge? Snowman (talk) 17:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've removed mention of convergent evolution since this seems speculative, just kept similar bill  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  18:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That is one way of fixing it. Snowman (talk) 19:06, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I see convergent evolution is back in the article again. Snowman (talk) 19:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * oops, I reverted myself, apologies  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed as earlier. Snowman (talk) 14:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Allen's rule does not help to explain convergent evolution - Australia is hot and mountains are cold, so the two species might be expected to have different extremities. Snowman (talk)
 * I think that the rules apply to closely related apecies/subspecies - White-winged isn't a corvid, so not a valid comparison  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  18:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed by omitting convergent evolution - see above. Snowman (talk) 19:08, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Trawl for possible omissions
 * Is there anything physiologically, biochemically, or anatomically special about the bird or the egg that enable it to nest at a highest altitude of any bird? Snowman (talk) 17:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I suspect that the eggs have fewer pores, and retain water vapour better at low atmospheric pressure, but there is no RS I can find for this, so has to be omitted Unsigned comment - Jimfbleak - talk 18:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC) Found a reference which discusses fewer pores less water loss. 19:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * To me that does not explain the eggs oxygen needs. It might help completion and be interesting to add some hypotheses about the requirements of high-altitude nesting. Snowman (talk) 19:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why should oxygen be a problem? The air isn't that that thin. Adults can fly actively at high altitudes, which uses much more oxygen than an egg just sitting there. It's water loss which would prevent say a chicken egg hatching at that altitude  Jimfbleak  -  talk to me?  19:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that the air is quite a bit thinner. It is a problem for humans going up mountains. I am wondering; "Why is oxygen not a problem for choughs at high altitude?". Snowman (talk) 19:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Added The eggs of bird species that breed at high altitude also containing haemoglobin with a genetically determined high affinity for oxygen. plus ref  Jimfbleak  - </b> talk to me?  06:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Super. Hit the jackpot. What is different about the haemoglobin (or Hb)? - Is it a different structure Hb? - Is it a temporarily present form of Hb (like foetal haemoglobin)? - do adults and eggs both have the Hb? - Or is it just adjusted oxygen disassociation (a modified Haldane effect)? Snowman (talk) 11:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This seems to be the only accessible paper that's at all relevant. I doubt that it's anything structural since other birds can adapt to high altitudes, it's just that in high altitude the adaption is genetically programmed, whereas for lowland birds it's physiologically mediated <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  14:51, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You did well to find that. Snowman (talk) 15:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The White-winged Chough is 45cm long, so Bergmann's rule would predict that it would occupy a higher altitude that the smaller Alpine, but it does not. Why is this? Snowman (talk) 17:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As above, it's not a valid comparison, it's like comparing a lion with a Wild Cat - the species are insufficiently close. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  18:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I did not know that. Snowman (talk) 19:10, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Where does P. g. digitatus live? Snowman (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added a sentence to clarify that <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  18:37, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Provisional impression: I have a conflict of interest, because I edit bird pages. I think that it is a well-written article, which covers the topic well. I am not aware of any omissions which would prevent it becoming an FA; however, it is possible a number of small issues might arise during the course of the review. Snowman (talk) 16:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reviewing and comments <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Support (moral or otherwise as WP:Birds member) I too am a wikiproject birds editor and have been involved on and off here. I have looked over it a few times, corrected material and can't see anything else to fix or add. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments - disclaimer: I passed this article's GAR; these comments are made with a more critical (read: nitpicky) FAC mentality :) Sasata (talk) 18:22, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Taxonomy
 * there should be non-break spaces after the genus initial when giving the short form of the binomial (as well as the subspecies); also in cytochrome b, and F. laetus later
 * Done, didn't realise this was need even after nearly twenty FAs


 * suggest to wlink specific epithet, synonymous
 * Done


 * it it necessary to include the flying altitude of the bird in the picture caption?
 * No


 * "The Australian White-winged Chough, Corcorax melanorhamphos, despite its similar bill shape and black plumage, is only distantly related to the true choughs: the resemblances are due to similar foraging methods." not following how the physical resemblance is due to behavioral similarity
 * And the ref doesn't support this, removed claim <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Description
 * wlink plumage
 * "37–39 cm (15–15 in) length" need a decimal place or something or this looks silly
 * I detest these convert templates, but other trust them unquestioningly. Hand calculated now <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "...but has a relatively longer tail and shorter wings than its relative." repeat of relative
 * proportionally


 * "The sexes are identical although the male averages slightly larger than the female" identical in appearance
 * done


 * need to mention what bird is in the right side of the image
 * done


 * wlink alarm call
 * done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Behaviour and ecology
 * "It is constructed on a ledge or in a cave or similar fissure in a cliff face, or in an abandoned building." -> maybe pluralize the locations so it doesn't sound like it's talking about once specific nest
 * The bulky nests are composed of roots, sticks and plant stems lined with grass, fine twiglets or hair, and may be constructed on ledges, in a cave or similar fissure in a cliff face, or in an abandoned building


 * "they are incubated by the female for 14–21 days to hatching" -> "prior to hatching"?
 * done


 * "and fledge in a further 29–31 days fom hatching." sp.; also, this fledge should be wlinked rather than the later occurrence in the next sentence
 * done


 * "The eggs of bird species that breed at high altitude also contain haemoglobin with a genetically determined high affinity for oxygen." Doesn't sound right to me to say the eggs have hemoglobin, when its the gooey contents inside that actually has it
 * The unhatched chicks (I don't think foetus applies to eggy species ]


 * wlink pellet, tree line
 * Done


 * "...the winter diet for the Red-billed Chough was almost exclusively Gagea bulbs" Bulbs are underground structures... does the bird dig them up and/or pull them out of the ground?
 * added dug from the ground

Status
 * "The Alpine Chough has an extensive, though sometimes fragmented, range, " don't think the comma is needed after fragmented
 * done


 * "and the reduced range of Red-billed chough in the islands" Chough not capitalized here, in contrast to elsewhere
 * done


 * ref formatting needs some cleanup, e.g. "pp." used for single pages; there's hyphens instead of an ndash in current refs 46 and 47; last ref has an extraneous colon; some refs have author initials, others full names; ref 15 needs genus italicized; inconsistent capitalization of Book titles; etc.
 * I've not finished these, will do so later. I'm not happy about having to standardise initials/full names, that's never been a requirement before. Thanks for reviewing, and i'll finish sometime today <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I think I've found them all. Note that where the common names of the two chough species appear in a journal title, I have kept the capitalisation used in the paper, since practice varies, so there are some "Alpine Chough" and some "alpine chough". I've also kept "Chough" in one title where it is a synonym for Red-billed Chough, so capitalisation is not wrong. As above, I don't think it is an MoS requirement to have just full names or just initials - it's never been raised as such at previous FACs. If it's a sticking point, I'll change it all to initials, but I'm reluctant to remove information, minor though it may be. Anyway, many thanks for taking the time to review this article, <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  10:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

My quibbles addressed, I now Support. Looks like a FA to me. Sasata (talk) 21:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for careful review and support <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Alt text done; thanks. Please add alt text to images; see WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 06:01, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops, foolish oversight, done now <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the alt text that was added looks good. The "alt text" button at the upper right of this review article says that two images still need alt text, though: File:Pyrrhocoraxgraculusmap.png (please use the range_map_alt parameter of Taxobox, and please see WP:ALT for guidance) and File:ChoughsDiff.svg. Eubulides (talk) 21:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Map now has alt text, the other image had alt text, but I'd put alt = instead of alt=, so hopefully OK now <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It all looks good now; thanks again. Eubulides (talk) 02:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment The toolbox reveals a few dead links. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:57, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Replaced with good links, the new link to Systematic notes on Asian birds. 45. Types of the Corvidae works, but the link checker doesn't like it, not sure why <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:46, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:34, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Support - for a very well-written and engaging article. There are a few expressions that I would not have chosen to use, such as "large numbers of" (many) and "whilst" (while), but these are mainly personal preferences. Thanks, I enjoyed reading this. Graham Colm Talk 18:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for review and support <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:55, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Oppose on criterion 3
 * File:Dohlen42vils alps 2006.jpg - It is unclear from the image description page who the copyright holder is. It seems that it is the uploader, but this needs to be made explicit. Please ask the uploader to clarify that is a self-made image.
 * Disputed image replaced with File:Male Ciche.jpg <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Please add an English translation to the description. Awadewit (talk) 03:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Added translation "Male Ciche ski lift" 06:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Gould alpine chough.jpg - The license for this image claims PD by virtue of "life of the author plus 70 years". Please add death dates for the authors to establish this.
 * Amended to ''John Gould (1804-1881), painting by Edward Lear (1812-1888) or Elizabeth Gould (1804-1841) <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak  - </b> talk to me?  07:10, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

These issues should be easy to rectify. Awadewit (talk) 04:19, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ye godz, John Gould (d. 1881) is pre-eminent among ornithologists...Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Striking oppose. Awadewit (talk) 03:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for image review <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.