Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alpine newt/archive1

Alpine newt

 * Nominator(s): Tylototriton (talk) 10:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Lockdown has its advantages: I now have time and, after a longer absence, came back to Wikipedia! The alpine newt is one of Europe's most common newt species and also one of the most beautiful... Looking forward to your feedback! Tylototriton (talk) 10:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

FunkMonk

 * Nice to see you back, the the circumstances are of course unfortunate. I'll review soon, some preliminary comments first. FunkMonk (talk) 16:32, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, FunkMonk, feels good to be back (though I admit I'd love to go outside and see those newts, they must be breeding right now)! Tylototriton (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * You still could alone, no? Or are you under complete lockdown? FunkMonk (talk) 08:11, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Strict lockdown with distance limit for walks where I am, unfortunately. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * They're probably happy to not be disturbed these days anyway, if we have to put a positive spin on it! FunkMonk (talk) 18:12, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That's true! Tylototriton (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The following sentence needs a source: "The western populations of the nominate subspecies I. a. alpestris, together with the Cantabrian I. a. cyreni and the Apennine I. a. apuana form one group, while the eastern populations of I. a. alpestris are genetically closer to the Greek I. a. veluchiensis."
 * Done (moved ref from sentence before). Tylototriton (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Do we have any photos of eggs?
 * Only one, not the best quality, on Commons. Have added it, can't seem to find a better free photo anywhere. Tylototriton (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * These two free photos on Flickr seem good, maybe a double image under description (or the taxobox)? The current image under description is kind of low quality up close, but still interesting, so could maybe be moved to the empty habitat section?
 * Thanks for having a look! I just think they might be a bit misleading, they seem to be newts in aquatic phase photographed on land. Tylototriton (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Generally, the taxonomy and evolution sections would come first, and subspecies would be covered under taxonomy.
 * Done. Tylototriton (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The image sunder Paedomorphy are kind of sandwiching the text, which is discouraged, could they maybe be staggered, both be right aligned, or similar?
 * Done, stacked them all on the right. Tylototriton (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I wonder if the genus article Ichthyosaura should be merged here, since it seems dubious the only other species belongs in it?
 * As long as the fossil species nominally belongs to Ichthyosaura and thus there are two species, I think it's justified to have an article for it. Tylototriton (talk) 15:34, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I see the subspecies might also be split off, so when the time comes, the article will come in handy. FunkMonk (talk) 08:11, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * In any case, the fossil relative should probably be mentioned here.
 * It's mentioned under Evolution, otherwise I think the nomenclature section should focus on the species and not the genus. Tylototriton (talk) 15:34, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, I think evolution should come after taxonomy for logical continuity, that's where I looked for the info, and where it usually is discussed. Seems pretty disjointed now, talking about populations and their split in one place, only to have to read half the article to get the rest of the related info. FunkMonk (talk) 08:11, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Moved up the Evolution section up, as you suggested. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Laurenti thought that males, females and larvae were different species." Did he name them all?
 * Yes – I've added the names now. Tylototriton (talk) 15:34, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "as monotypic genus Mesotriton in 2004 By who? And specify if it was a genetic study.
 * Added the authors now and also added separate references for the phylogenetics. Tylototriton (talk) 15:34, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe give full name as with the other authors? FunkMonk (talk) 08:11, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, done. Only a bit worried I'm introducing too many redlinks now. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * All names don't have to be linked, though. FunkMonk (talk) 18:12, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I've decided to go back to last names only (saves some space) and removed some author links. Tylototriton (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't it be "the monotypic genus Mesotriton"?
 * Done.


 * Give the meaning of the generic names if possible.
 * Added a sentence for the current name Ichthyosaura. Tylototriton (talk) 15:34, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * It seems all synonyms are not listed in the taxobox.
 * I thought the ~80 known synonyms listed in Frost et al. were a bit overkill for a taxobox, so I gave only the basionym and the two combinations found in recent literature. Tylototriton (talk) 15:34, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That's a lot, yeah. If you do wan to include them for completeness, you can collapse the synonym list, like for example at red rail. FunkMonk (talk) 08:11, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks – but to be honest, I prefer not having to format 80 species names ;) Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "The Handbook of the Amphibians and Reptiles of Europe (2003)" By who?
 * Replaced book title with author names. Tylototriton (talk) 15:34, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Maybe the images under description should be right aligned or staggered?
 * Right-aligned them. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Roček" Full name?
 * Done. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "premature in Amphibian Species of the World" Author and date?
 * Author and year given now (but removed title for brevity). Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Subspecies I. alpestris cyreni" This is lsited under alternative classifications, but isn't it identical to the standard classification? Likewise with "Subspecies I. alpestris alpestris".
 * This whole section is complicated, as the current subspecies don't completely match the lineages and the proposed species. Rafaelli's subspecies alpestris is only part of the current alpestris. I've tried to restructure the section and the table, hope it's all a bit clearer now. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * It seems it might have major ramifications for this article if the subspecies are split off? Are we prepared for this, or will the article disintegrate?
 * Most of the article would probably still apply to the nominate subspecies. Don't think it would be too much work to split this. Guess people are working on a population genetic study and hybrid zones, that's what's really missing to nail this down, like for the crested newts. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "according to a molecular clock estimate." By who?
 * Author added. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "and laterally compressed" Maybe use a term more familiar to most readers, sideways or form side to side?
 * Changed to "sideways". Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "wider heads that those" Than?
 * Yep, fixed. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Have any of the introductions been because these newts are known to have lived in said areas?
 * The source doesn't give more detail unfortunately. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "More distant introductions have occurred to Great Britain, mainly England but also Scotland,[17] and New Zealand.[18]" Do we know how or why?
 * Again, the sources don't say if these were accidental escapes or planned introductions. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "At higher altitude, maturity is reached only after 9-11 years, and the newts can grow up to 30 years old." Do we know why?
 * I guess it's just a matter of everything being slowed down under colder temperatures. Sources don't say that explicitly though. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Life and behaviour" Maybe lifecycle and behaviour? Life seems very general. Or the more common behaviour and ecology?
 * Went for "Lifecycle and behaviour" – I've used "Ecology" before but it's still a little technical for most readers I think. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Juvenile hibernating in dead wood" Is this an eft then? maybe best to be consistent in terminology? You also sya juenile other places instead of eft.
 * Usage of "eft" should be consistent now. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Experiments suggested that" Suggest?
 * Done. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "has usually several fathers" Usually has would sound more natural.
 * Done. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Larvae are 7–11 mm long" Conversion?
 * Are measurements below one inch common? Not so familiar with the imperial usage, is there any guidance? Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Probably ok as is. FunkMonk (talk) 18:12, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Any more info on the physical differences between subspecies?
 * What I get from my reading is that there are no consistent morphological differences. I can add some tendencies if that's useful. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd think it interesting, yeah. FunkMonk (talk) 18:12, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Done, added a paragraph under Description. Tylototriton (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Amphibian eggs and larvae, including the same species" of the same species?
 * Done. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "spiders or isopod" And instead of or?
 * Done. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "and secrete a milky substance." Of what function?
 * Source doesn't say. Added another ref about traces of tetrodotoxin. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "formerly Triturus alpestris and Mesotriton alpestris" I don't think listing synonyms in the intro is needed, unless if you specifically mention why they were named.
 * Agree and removed them. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Paedomorphic adults, which keep their gills and stay aquatic, are common" That's not the impression I get from reading the article body though, it seems to be more common than in other newts, but then only in the southern range. Could be consolidated better.
 * Changed this to "occur in the southern range". Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "have started to diverge" I think you could cut the "have", this tense looks odd for something that append millions of years ago.
 * Done. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "classified at Least Concern" As?
 * Fixed typo. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Looking good, added some comments above. Should be ready to support after next round (and sorry for all my typos). FunkMonk (talk) 18:12, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Added another image in the meantime (defense position). Tylototriton (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support - looks nice to me now, maybe put the eft hibernating in wood up under habitat so you can shift the rest of the images below up, now the last image collides with the references and creates white space. Or a few of the images could be left aligned to free up more space. FunkMonk (talk) 19:45, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review! Tried to move up some images now and stagger them, but I guess this is also screen dependent (I use a rather small one...). Tylototriton (talk) 09:52, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Image review
 * Suggest adding alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:54, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. Tylototriton (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

 * In the infobox it should be "present" not "recent" and Miocene should be linked
 * Done for "present", but the Geological range template gives me an error if I link Miocene. Tylototriton (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Brilliant lead photo
 * Agree! Tylototriton (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "The larvae grow up to 5 cm (2.0 in) before metamorphosing into terrestrial efts. Paedomorphic adults, which keep their gills and stay aquatic, occur in the south of the range." I find this unclear. The newt article says that eft is a juvenile phase, so does the newt go through two metamorphases or is an eft an immature adult? (You clarify this below, but it should be clear in the lead.) The reference to "terrestial" efts implies that the larvae phase is aquatic, but it would be helpful to spell this out. You also need to spell out the transition to adulthood, not just one aquatic variant. I suggest something like (if correct) "The aquatic larvae grow up to 5 cm (2.0 in) before metamorphosing into terrestrial juvenile efts after [period of time]. The efts then mature into adults at the age of [x], but some adults in the south of the range are paedomorphic, keeping their gills and staying aquatic."
 * Reworded now as "The aquatic larvae grow up to 5 cm (2.0 in) in around three months before metamorphosing into terrestrial juvenile efts, which mature into adults at around three years. In the southern range, the newts sometimes do not metamorphose but keep their gills and stay aquatic as paedomorphic adults." I want to make clear that paedomorphic adults do not metamorphose. Tylototriton (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Also eft redirects to newt and therefore duplicates the link to newt above.
 * I prefer to keep that link for clarity, since eft is a more narrow concept, even if it's treated in the same article. Tylototriton (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Populations of the alpine newt started to diverge around 20 million years ago." Is it known when the species first evolved?
 * Telling when a species emerged is pretty complicated, since we don't know about earlier, extinct lineages. This population divergence gives the minimum age. The divergence of the sister species, Ichthyosaura randeckensis could give a maximum age, but it's debated whether it actually is the sister species. So this minimum age (estimate) is all we have. Tylototriton (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Austrian zoologist Laurenti" You should give his full name at first mention.
 * See comments above, I finally settled on using only last names. Tylototriton (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "After this genus was found to contain several unrelated lineages based on genetic evidence," This is ambiguous. Maybe "When genetic evidence showed that the genus contained several unrelated lineages,"
 * Reworded as suggested. Tylototriton (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * No change needed, but it seems remarkable that the sub-species separated 20 million years ago. This predates the separation of the great and lesser apes, and implies that we are more closely related to gibbons than the sub-species of alpine newts are to each other.
 * Indeed! These are probably several species, and I guess they will be recognised over the next few years, as has happened already with the smooth newt and the crested newt. Tylototriton (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Amphibian eggs and larvae, including of the same species, are also eaten." Does this mean of their own species? This should be clarified.
 * Done. Tylototriton (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * This is an interesting article. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:08, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Dudley! Tylototriton (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:30, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Support by Jens Lallensack

 * Nice to see this here – amphibians are a rare sight at FAC! Only a few quibbles:
 * Thanks for reviewing! Tylototriton (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


 * "Ichthyosaura", Greek for "fish lizard", refers to a nymph-like creature in classical mythology. – Can this be more specific? Does it refer to a specific figure, or a category of creatures, and if yes, which?
 * There's no more detail than this in the cited source unfortunately, nor in the original mention of Ichthyosaura by Sonnini & Latreille. Tylototriton (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Several authors argued that the ancient lineages of the alpine newt might represent cryptic species.[3][16] Four species were therefore distinguished by Raffaëlli in 2018 – The "therefore" implies a logical followup, but I'm confused why they distinguish only four species based on five ancient lineages?
 * The five lineages correspond to the four current subspecies, of which one includes two lineages. The proposed four new species split one of the current subspecies (alpestris) in two species but retain two subspecies/lineages (western alpestris and cyreni) as one species. Yes, it's complicated, I hoped the table would clarify this? Tylototriton (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Populations from Vlasina Lake in Serbia have mitochondrial DNA that is distinct from all other populations and may represent a ghost lineage inherited from a now extinct ancestor population. – The ancestor population can not possibly have gone extinct, otherwise this species would not exist anymore. Also, this part of the sentence doesn't say much since all populations have ancestor populations.
 * The reasoning is that this ancestral population went extinct after its mitochondrial DNA had introgressed into the gene pool of other populations that still have descendants today. mtDNA introgression is common between close newt species, e.g. the Carpathian newt has the smooth newt's mtDNA but its nuclear DNA (and morphology) are clearly distinct. Tylototriton (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I still do not understand what the ghost lineage would be here; a ghost lineage cannot be inherited. If a little more is added it might get more comprehensible, but decision is yours. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:28, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Tried to clarify, hope it makes more sense now: "Populations from Vlasina Lake in Serbia have mitochondrial DNA that is distinct from and more ancient than that of all other populations; it may have been inherited from a now extinct "ghost" population." Tylototriton (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Maybe worth to add body weight, as this is an important biological factor.
 * Done. Not a very common info in books on newts, but luckily there's a detailed monograph about this species. Tylototriton (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Paedomorphy (or neoteny) – those are not the same. Neoteny is a form of paedomorphy.
 * In the newt literature, the two seem to be used interchangeably. I've removed the parentheses with neoteny however for consistency. Tylototriton (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Maybe it would be good to add a bit more on those introduced populations in the UK and New Zealand. When were they introduced, what areas do they occupy now in which numbers, and "eradication was recommended" in New Zealand – why exactly? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 23:00, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * See also comment from FunkMonk above. I've added some more detail on the New Zealand populations. Tylototriton (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Support. Just discovered some of these critters in our local forest, made me quite happy. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:28, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Coord note
Am I missing the source review? --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:29, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Looking now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:39, 25 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Earwigs is copyvio clear
 * References look reliable and represent a mix of peer-reviewed journal articles and books. Consistently formatted.
 * FN 16 - used 6 times. text in article consistent with source (though in source author concedes as a one-liner at the bottom that the species could be split into two rather than four for a more conservative apporach but not a big deal)
 * FN 21 - used twice. text in article consistent with source
 * FN 22 - used twice. text in article consistent with source

Overall all good Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 06:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC)