Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Anarchy Online/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:12, 10 October 2009.

Anarchy Online

 * Nominator(s): Sebquantic (talk) 03:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it meets the criteria after a 2nd peer review, and a month of improvements. Its about a long-running role-playing game with a checkered, and I think interesting, history. Gakon5 was kind enough to copy-edit several sections. Sebquantic (talk) 03:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments by an odd name

Date formats are consistent in article text and in refs, and it's definitely got lots of facts about the game, so good job. I made some small changes and think the prose could be better:
 * This troubled launch, often echoed by modern reviewers, serves as a juxtaposition to the generally positive critical reception of the game and its expansions. Not least was the Shadowlands expansion which was given several Editor's Choice awards after its release in 2003. This seems a bit long; try This troubled launch, often echoed by modern reviewers, contrasts with the generally positive critical reception of the game and its expansions. Not least was the Shadowlands expansion that earned several Editor's Choice awards after its release in 2003. I think it could be even simpler but not sure how.
 * Went ahead and replaced this with your suggestion. Sebquantic (talk) 16:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Why "Plot synopsis" and not just "Plot" for the first section?
 * This section header has morphed a lot over the last few months. It started as "Story", then "Story synopsis", shortened to "Synopsis", and finally another editor added "Plot synopsis". I'm not sure which one is preferable. Sebquantic (talk) 16:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I want to edit this sentence further, but it's unclear if the difficulty is given by the player or by the game's mission system (I've never played AO).
 * Fixed this. Sebquantic (talk) 16:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I may list more above, but consider finding a second copyeditor to look over the whole article. It can't hurt. --an odd name 06:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input! I'll see if anybody at the copy-editors guild wants to have a look-over. Sebquantic (talk) 16:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * To make up for my prior laziness, I'm going through some of the article. --gakon5 (talk) 17:04, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * About the Morrison sentence, Craig Morrison was replaced by a guy named Colin Cragg around that time. I got confused and used the wrong name when writing this section. Sebquantic (talk) 16:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments by gakon5 (talk)

I copyedited the Release, Rendering upgrade, and Free Play program sections. In terms of broad issues, I'm finding that not enough context is always given with regards to when things happen. Some examples: I guess that's it for that, but there may be other examples elsewhere in the article. A few other issues:
 * The Free Play program was originally set to last one year, but its length has been extended every year since then as of 2009 Since when?
 * The original four-year story concluded soon after, although it has since been extended. Soon after what?
 * Two months later, Anarchy Online began offering free trial subscriptions, now common practice for other games in the MMOG genre. Two months after what?

Release
 * Despite a public beta test that had been conducted for two weeks before launch, the first month of the game's release was marked with many stability, registration, and billing issues. There's some POV in here, suggesting that the beta should have resolved any technical issues. In addition, your source only affirms that the beta exists, and doesn't link the beta and the launch issues to each other.
 * Removed the first part of that sentence. Took the pre-release paragraph from the Reception section, added a bit about the beta test, and put it in the Development section. Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. The whole "despite x, y happened" thing is POV unless you have a developer who said that. (see Development below)


 * Community manager Tor Wigmostad stated that "things did not go as well as we had planned," adding that the problems "could have been avoided by an extended release date and better planning." Give some context for when this was said.
 * Added dates here. Sebquantic (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. --gakon5 (talk) 23:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The last paragraph about RP events and player protests feels out of place in this section. I don't know where else it could go, though.  Also, it starts with "The official role-playing events", and I don't see where the context is for what these RP events are. --gakon5 (talk)
 * I agree it does feel out of place, but I couldn't think of where else to put it. I figured it might as well be placed chronologically in the history section like it is. Reworded first sentence here, and added a brief explanation of what the events are in the Development paragraph about the story. Sebquantic (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Major expansions
 * The first three expansion and booster packs, most significantly the Shadowlands expansion, helped promoted the game to a wider audience. 550,000 new customer subscriptions were created between 2002 and 2004. I don't see where this is backed up in the about.com article linked to:
 * Replaced the second ref for this sentence that got misplaced somehow. There were 150,000 total subs in June 2002, then 700,000 total subs in June 2004. I just subtracted to get the 550,000 figure. Does this count as OR by me? Sebquantic (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * From WP:NOR, under the section "Routine calculations": "This policy does not forbid routine calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, provided editors agree that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the information published by the sources from which it is derived." Doing math isn't against the rules, but you can't link the release of Shadowlands to a spike in subscriptions yourself. --gakon5 (talk)
 * Tried to disassociate these two things. Let me know if it still looks like OR. Sebquantic (talk) 04:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know, it just being there implies some association. If there isn't any, then you've got a few misplaced quips about sales data in your expansion/booster section.  The last two sentences about subscription numbers and revenue could stand to be elsewhere, although you have no dedicated sales section; most of that stuff is intertwined with other parts of the article.  It will make a short section even shorter, but to compensate you could turn the list of expansions/boosters into a paragraph of prose. --gakon5 (talk) 21:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Free Play program
 * The original four-year story concluded in 2005, although it has since been extended. This sentence is out of place, between two sentences about the game's decreased public profile.
 * merged with Development section story paragraph. Sebquantic (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's good. --gakon5 (talk)


 * Most of the first paragraph is unsourced, but it looks like the two refs you do use in the first sentence cover most of this. Sprinkle those around.  Also, you need to back up the term "froob".
 * A quick skim through the game's dev blogs and it seems to me like public-facing employees actually go out of their way not to call them froobs, even though it's a common term with players. No sources found, removed it. Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Other online games have since offered indefinite free play with restricted content. Suggests that Anarchy Online influenced the free-to-play-with-ads model, but you don't back that up with a source.
 * Found some sources that should clarify what it was the first to do (first large western mmo with the the free-to-play-with-ads model). Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Despite the changes, Changes to what?
 * smaller public profile (less promotion, less media-coverage). Is this clearer? Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That works. I was interested in what these changes were that, despite them, the game remained steady and profitable.  You may want to add that, despite a smaller profile and the Free Play program, AO remained profitable.  Although, that's most likely POV, considering the word "despite" is used, similar to the beta/launch issues thing above. --gakon5 (talk)
 * The source you use there doesn't seem to reference the game being "steady" and "profitable" despite the changes, however. --gakon5 (talk)
 * Added more refs here. Its an ugly string of 4 inline references, but I guess it's needed. All the available financial reports between Q4 05' and Q3 08' describe it as "steady", "stable" or something similar. Sebquantic (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In addition, if you want to say "despite this, this happened," you'll need a developer/producer who said that. It can't be just you. --gakon5 (talk)
 * I'll look around and see if they said something like this in a press release or something. Sebquantic (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Development
 * Your link to IGN about Funcom leads to the game page for NBA Hang Time. I can't tell if it's intentional or not, since the game was developed by Funcom, but makes no reference to the "critically successful" Speed Punks.
 * Refs got mixed up, fixed this. Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. --gakon5 (talk)


 * Godager and many other developers saw the idea as "crazy," and he described the project as "very ambitious". Unlike Anarchy Online's science-fiction theme, existing games in the genre were based on a traditional role-playing fantasy theme. Maybe switch the positions of these sentences. The first sentence doesn't explain why AO is a crazy ambitious project.
 * Swapped, also added a sentence the might help explain better. Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. --gakon5 (talk)


 * The number of developers employed to the project slowly increased, reaching "over 70" by its release date. Increased from what?
 * added date range for this. Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. --gakon5 (talk)


 * The game software uses a system named "Sample-based Interactive Music", in which samples -short clips of music- are mixed together to form the continuous soundtrack. named → known as, the continuous → a continuous; use proper dashes (WP:DASH); I would say the system creates background music, not a soundtrack.
 * The Gamasutra article about the music of AO you link to does not reference the term "Sample-based Interactive Music".
 * Fixed. "Sample-based Interactive Music" was on the second page of that ref, fixed that too. Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn't see that. The second sentence in that paragraph needs rewording, though. --gakon5 (talk)


 * Also, if the game's music is dynamically generated, what does it mean that Morten Sørlie, etc. composed it? Did they create the musical elements that mix together, or is there an official soundtrack out there as well?
 * Added sentence about the released soundtrack on CD, but I'm not sure if vgmdb.com is a RS? Their "about us" section makes it sound like all the entries are reviewed, and a lot of the Japanese video-game articles the site as a ref (one Good Article), but didn't find any FA articles that use it. Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It is used in Music of Final Fantasy VI, which is a Good Article. I don't know, though. --gakon5 (talk)
 * A user here judged vgmdb as unreliable, as it relies on user-submitted data. I say replace it or remove.  --an odd name 23:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Added a different ref from IGN. Sebquantic (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

-- gakon5 (talk) 18:00, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I read through once checking for vauge "when" statements, and think I caught them all. Thanks again, and let me know if things still need work. Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've crossed out things I think are fixed, responded to some changes, and added some new things. Now to go through more of the article. --gakon5 (talk) 23:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * More updates. The entire History section should be just about there. --gakon5 (talk) 23:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: Watch what things you link and what things you don't. For example, you don't need to link to GameSpot more than once in the text, and you don't need to link to things like the United States, or other basic terms.  See WP:LINK. --gakon5 (talk) 23:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Reduced the amount of links in lead, removed links to major countries, corrected a few such as social networking -> social network, and made sure only the first instance of the terms are linked. Sebquantic (talk) 02:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's look at the plot section...

Plot synopsis:
 * They tried in vain to fix the problem, but discovered they had gone too far; the planet would soon collapse. If I recall correctly, the Xan were drilling into the planet. Explain what "going too far" means, and why the planet will soon collapse.
 * Looks like you cleared that up. --gakon5 (talk) 21:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Their scientists' tinkering with the mutating effects of notum on the colonists in a quest for efficiency lead to huge numbers of failed experiments; these survivors Survivors of the experiments, I presume?
 * Is this better? The game's synopsis page is pretty vauge about this, and its really only in the article to give some context for the Shadowlands expansion. Sebquantic (talk) 04:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Better. --gakon5 (talk)


 * This whole selection is looking a lot better than it did in Peer Review. A few small things I'll change myself, but I don't have many problems with it. --gakon5 (talk) 00:59, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Skill System:
 * I'm finding the same problem with this section I found in PR, and that has to do with skills. I see there are D&D-style Strength, Agility, etc., there are weapon proficiencies, and there's this third group of other random things.  And, of course, the game has abilities of some kind.  A single-target heal.  A crowd control maneuver.  A rez.  Are these also called "skills"?  The reader is left wondering what it means that any class can use any skill, or what "putting points into skills" means.  I can only assume the following, having not played the game:
 * Every character, regardless of class, has Strength, Stamina, etc.
 * Each class has a specific set of weapons they have access to.
 * Utilities, I don't know.


 * What are the 83 skills? Are they 83 different castable abilities?  Do they include Utilities?  Do they include anything else?  Do you put points into individual skills to improve their effects?  If there are any other terms that can better differentiate between skill types, by all means use them.  Also, once you've introduced 3-4 types of skills, you can't just use the generic term "skill", unless it really pertains to every skill type.  Example:
 * Any character can access and use any skill. The character's profession, however, provides unique "perks", "alien perks", "research", and "nano programs" that put additional points into certain skills.


 * --gakon5 (talk) 21:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Combat: Dynamic missions: --gakon5 (talk) 23:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * After reading this section, I now get what "abilities" are, or at least I think I do: nano programs. And maybe also perks and research?  Perks sound like passive abilities, but I suppose procs can make things active anyway.
 * Combat between two or more human players, colloquially known as "player vs player combat" PvP is a pretty common term, used by many MMO developers. Is it really only a colloquialism (slang) in AO?
 * Generally, this arbitrary percentage approaches 100% in major cities Wikipedia's own page on Arbitrariness says that it is "a term given to choices and actions subject to individual will, judgment or preference, based solely upon an individual's opinion or discretion." It implies that less thought went into deciding gas levels than actually did.  It probably wasn't random, since it's used to mitigate PvP in certain areas like cities.
 * This type of fighting can take place in areas approaching 0% suppression gas What type of fighting?
 * Another example are the "battle stations" I had to back up in the text to figure out what you were giving examples of: PvP-dedicated areas. At the end of the third paragraph (or at the start of the fourth), give some context for what you're about to delve into.
 * Can you better back up the idea that dynamic missions are one of AO's most unique elements?
 * Each mission has a visual theme based on its location: the interiors of mission areas involving an alien mothership, for example, will all share the same theme. The second part of this sentence doesn't expand on the idea that each mission has a visual theme based on its location.
 * I don't know about AO, but quests are a core part of most MMOs. There may not be much more to say about them, but they only get a passing mention in this section, and not anywhere else.  Perhaps you can introduce quests farther up in the text, and then in the Dynamic Missions section show how they're different from those.


 * Comments -
 * What makes the following reliable sources?
 * http://internetgames.about.com/od/gamereviews/fr/alieninvasion.htm
 * Replaced this with an IGN reference, and a Gamezone reference. Sebquantic (talk) 02:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * http://pc.gamezone.com/gzreviews/p26494.htm
 * This page should confirm gamezone.com as a RS. Sebquantic (talk) 02:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, this was my fault for not reading more about reliable sources before responding the first time. Replaced all gamezone.com sources with others. Sebquantic (talk) 03:14, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.gwn.com/news/story.php/id/237/Anarchy_Online_Turns_One.html
 * This was a copy of a press release from the company. Replaced with a link to GameSpot talking about the same press release. Sebquantic (talk) 02:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.mmorpg.com
 * I didn't see any other discussions about Mmorpg.com on the RS Noticeboard, or archived FACs, but here is my argument for using it: The site might not be a RS on its own, but the two pages referenced are interviews with Anarchy Online's two most recent game directors. All of the quotes and information taken are from them, not from anything written by the site. The interviewer in both cases was mmorpg.com's "Managing Editor" since 2007 Jon Wood, so it doesn't seem to me like random user-generated content. Sebquantic (talk) 02:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Same as above. Replaced with other sources. Sebquantic (talk) 03:14, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.massively.com/2008/01/23/anarchy-online-team-releases-teaser-for-revamped-graphics-engine/
 * Replaced with a link to one of Wired.com's blogs. This suggested to me that a blog run by Wired should be ok. Sebquantic (talk) 02:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Replaced with a press release and direct link for this sentence. Sebquantic (talk) 03:14, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE.
 * Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using cite news, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Templates should be sorted now. Sebquantic (talk) 04:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it has to be "science-fiction-themed". There's a similar glitch in "science fiction-setting"—a type of fiction setting? Please see User:Tony1/Beginners'_guide_to_the_Manual_of_Style.
 * The second sentence is a flow-on and needs a semicolon instead: "This troubled launch, often echoed by modern reviewers, contrasts with the generally positive critical reception of the game and its expansions. Not least was the Shadowlands expansion in 2003 that earned several Editor's Choice awards."
 * As ''The Guardian's" online style guide says, "very" is usually very redundant.
 * Again, a triple compound is created but not hyphenated: "one-thousand-year lease". Why not remove "one" to avoid the triple? Hyphen audit required throughout.
 * Why is US$ linked? And "US$1 million" would be easier, yes? Why is "AD" linked?
 * Newly-arrived: see the hyphen link above.
 * After 8 years: see User:Tony1/Beginners'_guide_to_the_Manual_of_Style.
 * The Xan were "perfect", but "greedy and arrogant"? I think you need to say "initially perfect" ...(?)
 * Why is "peacekeeping" linked?
 * "A billboard in the Omni-Tech controlled game zone"—hyphen issue? You can always reverse the order ... "A billboard in the game zone controlled by Omni-Tech"? And there's another one: "an in-game advertising supported business model". This is a feature of someone's writing style, and should be moderated. Please minimise the gobbledy compounds. Let me know if you don't understand what to do.
 * Are the FU images all OK? I doubt it. For example, is the Omni-Tech image necessary for the readers to understand the article? Is it necessary to have as many images? I'm pinging User:Black Kite.
 * Captions: final period required if there's a semicolon internally. See MoS on "Images".

An independent copy-edit would be good: it's not too big a job. Tony  (talk)  09:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I've fixed all your concerns above. A lot of the hyphenation was removed or reworded after reading your hyphen guide.


 * Of the five images, The gameplay and billboard screenshots I think are the two most necessary. The first helps illustrate many concepts in the gameplay section. The billboard shot illustrates the concept of Anarchy Online's in-game advertising, which is a major part of its history and has its own subsection.


 * The two dynamic mission screenshots I think help illustrate one of the game's most unique gameplay features, and gives the reader an idea of how the it was developed.


 * The Notums Wars box art picture probably doesn't add much, and could be easily removed in my opinion.
 * -- Sebquantic (talk) 19:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Image Review. The Notum Wars box art picture is excessive and should go (WP:NFCC, WP:NFCC). The screenshot of the terminals can also easily be described in text (WP:NFCC, WP:NFCC) and should also be removed.  Remaining non-free images are OK. Black Kite 20:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Removed the two images. Sebquantic (talk) 03:14, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't have time to do a full assessment of the article, so I won't support or oppose. However, I noticed that the Reception section was a bit thin. There are a couple of reviews for the game over at the Online print archive that should probably be included. I saw that the article quotes an article that quotes PC Gamer's review out of context, in regard to the "next great MMORPG" line. PC Gamer actually said, "When we say Anarchy Online is the next great MMRPG, understand that we mean it will be sometime in the future — not at this very moment. As the office resounds with the cacophony of angry gamers venting their frustration about crashed games and terrible lag, it’s clear that there is some serious work to be done before Anarchy Online fulfills its potential of being an EverQuest-killer. But it will become just that." You can see this and more in the full review, found in the Online print archive. Also, Game Informer's review of the game is available on their site. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.