Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ancient Trader/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ian Rose (talk) 07:18, 15 August 2014 (diff).

Ancient Trader

 * Nominator(s):  → Call me  Hahc  21  05:17, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Ancient Trader is a turn-based strategy video game developed by Slovakia-based studio 4Kids Games. It was released on 27 June 2010 for Microsoft Windows and the Xbox 360, and on 17 December 2010 for iOS. The game was designed using Microsoft XNA, and its year long development cycle was executed by six individuals. The game consists of a player exploring and trading in a sixteenth century cartography-influenced map with the ultimate goal to collect three artifacts to defeat the game's main antagonist, a sea creature called the Ancient Guardian.  → Call me  Hahc  21  05:17, 6 July 2014 (UTC) My main focus during FAC reviews is criterion 1a, so that's what I'll be judging below.
 * Review by JimmyBlackwing
 * "Slovakia-based" —> "Slovakian".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This referred to the lead, which still says "Slovakia-based". I went ahead and fixed it myself. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "(unrelated to 4Kids Entertainment)" — This should be removed. It has no source, it isn't part of the article body and it's basically irrelevant.
 * That was my add, not Hahc's, so don't blame him. I do think it's pertinent, though; when you mention "4Kids" to an English speaker, the unequivocal first thing that comes to mind is the infamous anime-dubbing studio (because what's worse than just acknowledging the US's messed-up standards of appropriateness to bring anime to a younger audience, right?), so I added a mention. Tezero (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I understand the concern, but it's blatant OR, and relatively few people know what 4Kids Entertainment (now 4Licensing Corporation) actually is. It needs to go. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It's blatant OR that a Slovakian game design studio isn't part of the American anime licensing corporation, but not that the map is in the style of the "Age of Enlightenment"? I'm not following. Tezero (talk) 02:16, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The Age of Discovery is the technical name for the sixteenth- and seventeenth-century European era on which the game is based. Cartography from sixteenth-century Europe is, to use its proper name, Age of Discovery cartography. The Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, which Chris Schilling compares to the game's visual design, is a famous Age of Discovery map. Just like abbreviating "1550-1650" to "early modern" (or "Doom, Unreal and Half-Life" to "first-person shooters"), it's simply a different way of phrasing the same information, rather than original research. On the other hand, the 4Licensing Corporation mention isn't a different way of phrasing information present in the sources, because it isn't in the sources. That's what makes it OR. If there's some source clarifying the relationship between 4Kids Games and 4Licensing Corporation, then by all means include it. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 02:32, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You don't need sources to establish a lack of a relationship when there is no evidence for such a relationship and the anime 4Kids, with its copious press releases, particularly relating to its business ventures, can be expected to have said something about it if they were affiliated. However, it's still something that readers could very much be confused by, because, well, that's what "4Kids" usually means in the American cultural lexicon. At the very least, I think a "not to be confused with" is appropriate.
 * Regarding the Age of Discovery, it would not necessarily be OR to note that the Theatrum Orbis Terrarum is an Age of Discovery map. However, it is OR to make the leap that all maps based on it in any way are inherently Age of Discovery-style cartography - perhaps Schilling was influenced by things about the map unrelated to its Age of Discovery nature. Tezero (talk) 03:21, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * If it has no source, then it's an original observation. That's all there is to it. The source can't be the work itself, like when Plot sections go citation-free, because the 4Licensing Corporation connection isn't part of the work. Plus, since there's no direct statement for or against 4Kids Games being related to 4Licensing Corporation, we can't (given Wikipedia guidelines) automatically assume either one as being the case. Also, Schilling is a journalist at Eurogamer (not a 4Kids member), and here's the passage of his review being cited:
 * But we can assume that the things could be confused, which leaves open the viability of a "(not to be confused with ...)". That doesn't need a source, just like "Not to be confused with ..." tags at the tops of articles don't need sources. Tezero (talk) 05:08, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Obviously, site navigation templates don't have to follow WP:OR. If 4Kids Games had an article, it would be appropriate to provide a disambiguation template at the top. But that's different from what you're suggesting, which is putting OR in the article text. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 05:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, so it's only OR if it's in the text as opposed to at the top, even if it's the exact same wording? That's a relief; I finally have an avenue on Wikipedia to place my belief that Sonic '06 is a postmodernist statement on losing your idols. Header, ho! Tezero (talk) 06:00, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Since that has nothing to do with site navigation, the point is irrelevant. Again, you're grasping at straws. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:55, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Its distinctive visual style is, naturally, the first thing that impresses. Artist Petr Vcelka, one of just six names listed in the credits, has taken inspiration from 16th- and 17th-century cartography - most obviously, Abraham Ortelius and his Theatrum Orbis Terrarum (the first modern atlas) - and crafted some beautiful, imaginative and exceptionally detailed art across the game's ageing, weathered maps."
 * "16th- and 17th-century cartography" is Age of Discovery cartography. However, calling it "Age of Discovery cartography" prevents close paraphrasing, while at the same time making it easier to wikilink. On top of that, it's clearer and more specific for the reader than a generalized date range would be. I can see no reason not to prefer it. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 04:42, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * There are other ways to paraphrase without plagiarizing and without making original summaries of things not stated in the source. (The term "Age of Discovery" is, by your own admission, not there.) The best I think you can do is a source that describes the 16th and 17th centuries as unequivocally identical to the Age of Discovery, and even then only use it in such a structure as "sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, an era also known as the Age of Discovery". Tezero (talk) 05:08, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That would be tantamount to asking me to find a source before I called 1432 the Late Middle Ages. You're grasping at straws, here. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 05:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd want you to come up with a darn good reason to use a numerically vague term not supported by the source just for the purpose of showing off a bit of your worldly education, yeah. And it's the same here. Tezero (talk) 06:00, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It's supported by the source in slightly different words. And, for what it's worth, my knowledge of the Age of Discovery is based on Googling for a concrete era name when I thought that "sixteenth century cartography-influenced" was poorly worded. Your opposition here is bizarrely personal, on top of being irrational. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:55, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You know what? Fine. If you have a better idea of what OR should be than Wikipedia does, more power to you. You're the reviewer, after all. I have other obligations here. Tezero (talk) 16:39, 2 August 2014 (UTC) Sorry, that wasn't necessary. Let me rephrase: It's clear that we're not going to agree on this, but since it's a minor issue (and one that I have no idea how Hahc or anyone else would feel about), I don't think it's necessary to continue. You can keep it your way if you want. Tezero (talk) 20:36, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "It was released on 27 June 2010 for Microsoft Windows and the Xbox 360, and on 17 December 2010 for iOS." — Full dates are tedious to read. Best left for the infobox. Shortened version: "It was released in 2010 for Microsoft Windows, the Xbox 360 and iOS."
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "its year long development cycle was executed by six individuals." —> "it was developed in one year by six people."
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 13:47, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Sentence rewrite suggestion:
 * " The game consists of a The player controls a ship that exploring explores and trading trades in an Age of Discovery-style map sixteenth century cartography-influenced map , while seeking with the ultimate goal to collect three artifacts that will to defeat the game's main antagonist, a sea creature called the Ancient Guardian." (italics signify an addition)
 * The Age of Discovery part is OR, I think, but rewritten similarly. Tezero (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Age of Discovery is the technical term for what Hahc is talking about. The Age of Discovery article even features the Theatrum Orbis Terrarum namedropped in the Development section. Since "large map" isn't actually related to the article body, and "makes trades" is very vague, I think my suggested rewrite is preferable. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "The idea behind the game was influenced by board games and video games such as" —> "Ancient Trader's design was influenced by that of board games and of the video games".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 13:46, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, this was in reference to the lead. Also, removing the "of the" means, grammatically, that Elite and Advance Wars are both board and video games. I went ahead and changed this myself. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "Elite and Advance Wars" — Need italics.
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "to design the overall game's appearance, and with Milan Malik to compose the game's score." —> "on the game's graphic design, and with Milan Malik on the game's score."
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "received positive response" —> "received a positive response".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "Legendo Entertainment, and" — Comma isn't necessary.
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Sentence rewrite:
 * "The player controls a ship, and their main mission is to collect and seeks out three powerful artifacts needed to challenge and to defeat the game's main antagonist, a sea creature called the Ancient Guardian."
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 13:46, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Another:
 * "However, before being able to locate obtaining these artifacts, the player must explore the map and to gather amounts of three different commodities: tea, spices, and fruit."
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "The map consists of a main sea surrounded by land" —> "The map consists of a landlocked sea".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * A rewrite:
 * "Sea creatures and enemy ships appear randomly across the map as they and challenge the player for gold or loot commodities in a card minigame."
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "side quests" — Wikilink this to Quest (video gaming).
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "Whirlpools act as teleports that, when activated, take" —> "Whirlpools transport".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * A rewrite:
 * "The player can also sometimes encounters message bottles that clear away fog of war previously clouded areas of on the map to reveal hidden ports."
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "the entire map is covered by wind clouds that disappear" —> "the entire map is obscured by fog of war that disappears".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "moved across the horizontal and vertical axes, but not diagonally" —> "moved horizontally and vertically, but not diagonally"
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "steps" — Kind of a vague word. Perhaps, "moves" wikilinked to Game mechanics?
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "and then the artificial intelligence" — "after which the artificial intelligence".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "located at a port" —> "docked at a port".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "drawing cards" —> "drawing colored and numbered cards".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "the player will be allowed to buy the three powerful artifacts needed to defeat the Ancient Guardian and win the game" —> "the player is allowed to buy the three powerful artifacts and win the game by defeating the Ancient Guardian".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * A rewrite:
 * " Additionally, Defeating the Guardian awards the player with the "mythical treasure", which consists of additional loot and upgrades that were previously not unavailable in on the map."


 * I don't understand the discussion of the game's multiplayer component. Could you try clarifying it in the article?
 * "the progress will be unrecoverable if the game is closed" —> "all progress is lost if the game is closed".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 06:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

I'll be back later to finish the review. In the meantime, a review-back on Thief II would be most appreciated. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 00:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC) Sorry for the delay; I've been busy.
 * Why do you discuss the multiplayer mode twice? Redundant information should be merged or removed.
 * "Ancient Trader is the first video game developed by Slovakia-based" —> "Ancient Trader was the first video game developed by the Slovakian"
 * Review by JimmyBlackwing, continued
 * "Four people comprised the team that worked in the development of the game" —> "The development team consisted of four people".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 06:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)


 * A rewrite:
 * "The music score was composed by Milan Malik, while animations were designed and the graphics were animated by Jan Ohajsky."
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 06:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "a set of tools focused on video game development created by Microsoft" —> "a set of game development tools created by Microsoft".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 06:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)


 * A rewrite:
 * "The idea behind the game was crafted conceived by Levius, who was influenced by board games and by video games such as Elite and Advance Wars (released for the Game Boy Advance) ."
 * Uh... done, I guess? None of that text is in the article with either wording now that I look at it. Tezero (talk) 06:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)


 * A rewrite:
 * "Levius and his girlfriend dedicated tested and balanced the game's mechanics for around two months to test and balance the game's mechanics along with his girlfriend, as well as gathering groups of and they invited friends to play the game 'without explaining anything[,] to see if they can understand the rules and controls.'"


 * A rewrite:
 * " He Levius worked with Vcelka to design Ancient Trader's appearance . , and he contributed graphical Levius, who designed some details like paper textures and clouds. ,revealed that The map's texture was based on a base of the maps' textures was arranged from the scan of an old military map of Slovakia."


 * Maybe include an image of Theatrum Orbis Terrarum in Development to go along with Schilling's quote?
 * A rewrite:
 * "For the Xbox 360 version of Ancient Trader, the team introduced a feature options to reduce the color saturation in the game and to change the amount of color in the game allow players to decide how much color they wanted to have ."


 * "other recent genre-related" — Just drop this part.
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 06:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "and vividness" —> "and the vividness".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 20:44, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "gave the game a score of 8 out of 10" — We know this from the review box.
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 20:44, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "as to be a" — Drop the "to be".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 20:44, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "Legendo Entertainment, and" — Comma isn't needed.
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 20:44, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "included an improved AI, new player avatars and the save feature" —> "includes improved AI, new player avatars and the save feature".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 20:44, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "it was too far from the original indie game" —> "it deviated too much from the original indie game".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 20:44, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

The prose isn't too bad, but there are enough issues that I'm going to have to oppose until it's been tidied up. It shouldn't take too long to fix. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:27, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah it needs a bit of work. I'll do it later this week :)  → Call me  Hahc  21  04:06, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * , I've taken on some of these. I hope that's okay. Tezero (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Looking better, but there's still work to do. I left some comments above. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Almost there. As for the contentious points above, I'll wait for Hahc to give a third opinion before deciding one way or the other. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 03:03, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll be going to Wikimania so this nomination will be a bit stale until I'm back.  → Call me  Hahc  21  05:06, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Huh. I'd like to go to one of those, though I'll have to learn Spanish and cobble together at least a few hundred dollars for travel money if 2015 is to be realistic. Tezero (talk) 05:21, 3 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Comments from Dank
 * As always, feel free to revert my copyediting.
 * "Levius dedicated around two months to test and balance the game's mechanics along with his girlfriend": So, one of the goals here is to avoid being unintentionally funny, and that's funny: girlfriends generally take more than two months to test and balance. Change it to "Levius and his girlfriend".
 * Since Hahc's away, I made this fix. There's an argument that "girlfriend" is a less-than-encyclopedic tone ... that either she's involved enough that we should mention her name or a less tenuous connection, or she's not involved enough to mention, but I won't take a position. - Dank (push to talk) 15:36, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * User:JimmyBlackwing, and anyone else who likes to copyedit WP:VG articles and wants to take a look: I'm not a gamer myself, I just know a little of the lingo, so I'd appreciate any feedback.
 * I see that some of the things JimmyBlackwing caught weren't changed ... and AFAICT, I got all those in my copyediting. Feel free to go with Jimmy's suggestions instead of mine, he knows what he's doing.
 * Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 20:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * , you may wish to know that Hahc hasn't been around lately and has suggested that this is likely to close as no-promote soon. I suggest you come back whenever Hahc re-nominates. Tezero (talk) 21:17, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Tezero, that works for me. - Dank (push to talk) 22:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

It's been a week since Hahc's been around so I'm going to archive this and perhaps he can have another try later. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:49, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Closing comment

Ian Rose (talk) 07:18, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.