Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Appalachian Spring/archive1

Appalachian Spring

 * Nominator(s): MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Martha Graham's ballet technique was one of the first American styles of dance, and it was beautifully executed in Appalachian Spring, a ballet commissioned for Graham and the composer Aaron Copland. Graham's unique choreography and the suites created from Copland's serene score remain essential in the American repertoire. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Mirokado
One of my favourites. First impression is: a well-written article. More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * §Background: last para: "bizarre scenes" (or whatever phrase is used in the source) should be quoted so it is not in Wikipedia's voice.
 * §Commission and composition
 * is "composing on the music" American usage? It seems incorrect to this British reader, I would expect "composing the music".
 * "and the rest of the community attends a revival meeting": perhaps American usage again? I would expect "the rest ... attend ...".
 * "Despite a new December deadline": It would be clearer to say "December 1943 deadline" here, since presumably "fall 1944" is meant after "spring of 1944" in the previous sentence.


 * All fixed- no, those aren't AmE spellings, just typos on my part, thanks for catching them! Clarified everything else MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:42, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * §Commission and composition: "The original scenario...": I'm familiar with the music but not the ballet, so it was a bit confusing that the main characters first mentioned in the content are not those mentioned in the lead. This is clarified later, but an extra clue here would be helpful. The shortest way of doing this would be to say "... used characters (later changed) based on..." or similar.
 * §Production:
 * Perhaps "collaborator with" is better than "collaborator of".
 * Quote "Fear of the Night" and any other references to episodes.
 * §Premiere and reception: "Copland himself took a modest opinion...": "had a modest opinion", we have an opinion but take a stance or position.
 * §Later performances: "Lynn Garafola compared Copland and Graham's collaborations to that of Stravinsky and Diaghilev": should be "... collaboration to that of ...". (I have verified that the reference provided supports this content).
 * Referencing: multiple-page ranges need the param in sfn.


 * All fixed, added an efn for the first comment instead of parentheses- many thanks again! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 15:05, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * §Later performances: have there been any notable performances of the ballet outside the U.S that we can mention? The current para has only U.S. performances.
 * §Themes: "Crist describes this as an embodiment of the link between wars among generations: as World War II was linked to the Civil War, the Bride brings together the life on the homefront in the 19th and 20th centuries." I'm not at all sure what is meant by "World War II was linked to the Civil War". Unless there is a causal link I am unaware of, I think we should rephrase this sentence to reflect similarity of circumstance and experience rather than any direct link. (I have verified that the reference provided supports this content, so I am also disagreeing with how Crist has made her point).
 * §Instrumentation: the layout of the columns is weird (on my system using Chrome on linux with a largish monitor): the columns in the first group are widely spaced and in the second group, the first column is wide and the second and third are narrower but seem to start where the second column of the first group ended. I don't see anything obviously wrong with the source, so some investigation is needed.
 * Thanks. I have tweaked further so that both first columns are 38% wide and the final column takes the remaining space. The columns line up and the total specified width does not exceeed 100%. -- Mirokado (talk) 10:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Reworded the themes issue, and I think I got the columns thing fixed, let me know if it's still displaying wrong on your end. For the foreign performances: I can find very little info about performances. Most of the info I did get about performances was, as you noticed, from US newspapers. I can't find anything about a European or Asian premiere; I did find this 1946 article about a London performance of the suite, but it doesn't explicitly state that it's the European premiere. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:13, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Not much we can add about performances without sources. This section would need to be updated if more information becomes available. -- Mirokado (talk) 10:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 10:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * §Prologue: the description moves from present tense to past tense. I think it needs to stay in the present tense apart from "The four Followers join the Revivalist, who has observed the land with the Pioneer Woman." which is correct so.
 * §Eden Valley:
 * "Halfway, the music calms down...": "Half way through, ..." would I think read better.
 * "... cued by a short phrase by a woodwind.": "... cued by a short phrase from a woodwind." would avoid repetition of "by".
 * §Wedding day:
 * "The music becomes heavier for and the jagged rhythms return ...": "The music becomes heavier for a while and ..."?
 * 'The second part of "Wedding Day" depicted the "old fashion charivari" mentioned in the scripts.' Is this referring to something which was later removed? If so we need to clarify, for example "Originally, the second part..." and perhaps say what replaced it. Otherwise, "depicts" should be in the present.
 * §Interlude: present tense tweaks needed here too.


 * Fixed all - the tense should be all good, and the charivari thing was supposed to be present tense, thanks for spotting that! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:13, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I have just checked with some other articles about musical works, and generally the present tense is used, so I think a few more tweaks may be needed. If it seems too complicated to describe the changes, I may make a few (more) copyedits and you are welcome to change further, discuss here or whatever. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:22, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:22, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * §Commission and composition: "old fashion charivari" needs some context here. We could wl Charivari which says "In some communities the ritual served as a gentle spoof of the newlyweds, intended to disrupt for a while any sexual activities that might be under way." Since that is half way through the section, I suggest an efn as well as the wikilink.
 * §Interlude:
 * "greatly connected": I think "strongly connected" would be better.
 * "..., the Followers following along.": well of course they are, it's their job! Can we rephrase, perhaps "..., accompanied by the Followers."?
 * §Fear in the Night, ...:
 * "... he warns the couple of their love." The problem is presumably the impending separation, or whatever, not their love itself. Is it possible to rephrase this?
 * "His agonized, frenzied dance was informed by the experiences of Peter Sparling, a dancer in the company who would dance the role in later productions." What experiences – the linked article does not give any clues? The article says he danced with Graham from 1973–1987, so was he really involved with her in 1944 or thereabouts? If he influenced later productions, we could say "has been informed" rather than "was informed".


 * Fixed all- I just linked the charivari because I couldn't find a citation for an efn. I clarified the Sparling fact, but that may be dangerously OR-y, since the article uses rather vague language. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 23:33, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Your changes are often better than my suggestions. -- Mirokado (talk) 23:55, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate it; I'm impressed by the fine details you're catching. Still working on my encyclopedic tone! Also, I think I;ve fixed the past/present tense issue- details about the music/dance are present tense, and details about Copland's composition of it are in past tense- let me know if I missed any. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:00, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is the distinction we need to make: for music/dance we use the narrative present tense, which may mean we use a past tense for something like what the music has just accomplished. For what Copland or Graham intended and so on, we use the past tense. "Copland achieves this ..." is fine in the present tense. I'll continue our discussion in further bullet points below. -- Mirokado (talk) 20:04, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Support. -- Mirokado (talk) 22:54, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * §Background: "consisted of" was correct as originally written: see for example Merriam Webster. (notifying user:ZKang123) -- Mirokado (talk) 09:26, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for catching that! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 10:59, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * §Prologue: "The two-minute opening set up the themes present throughout the ballet, and Copland employed the upwards building of chords ..." Here the first phrase describes what the music has just done, so should be narrated from the present point of view. The second phrase describes what Copland did, so is correctly in the past. Thus: "The two-minute opening has set up the themes present throughout the ballet, and Copland employed the upwards building of chords ..."
 * §Eden Valley: 'The melodies ..., used elements of an "old-fashioned swing" described in the early scripts.' Here, what the melodies do should be in the present, whereas what was described is correctly in the past, thus: 'The melodies ..., use elements of an "old-fashioned swing" described in the early scripts.' -- Mirokado (talk) 20:04, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mirokado, both fixed- thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 21:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for the thorough review! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 00:13, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Something I have just noticed which will not affect my support one way or the other:
 * There is generally no need to link to the publishers in the citations, I don't remember having seen that in other articles. -- Mirokado (talk) 12:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, this was per a consistency comment by Gerald below. Some of the pubs were linked, some weren't- I opted to link them all because there is no option to delink Oxford Press in Template:Cite Grove. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 00:46, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Whether publishers are linked or not seems to me neither here nor there, and for obscure publishers it might be helpful – but who decides that? Anyway, it possible to have Cite Grove emit output without linking the publisher:   gives: . This method of overriding the template's default behaviour is not obvious; it's a fortuitous byproduct of its implementation as a wrapper template. BTW, I'm not recommending that this should be done here, only pointing out that it can be done. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:01, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clarifying! @Mirokado, if you feel the pubs should all be delinked, I don't feel too strongly about them, but leaving them is no net negative in my eyes. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 10:59, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you Michael for the clarification. I would prefer that the publishers be unlinked in general. Linking one or two for a good reason such as "not well known" would not imply an inconsistent format. Most articles do not link all the publishers and our featured articles should present good examples for editors to follow elsewhere in Wikipedia. user:MyCatIsAChonk: I will be happy to make this change if you ask me to. -- Mirokado (talk) 22:52, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mirokado, I very much appreciate that- go right ahead. I've gotten a bit busy IRL, so this is very much appreciated. If you ever need a future review for DYK, GAN, FAC, FLC, etc, I'd be happy to help. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 23:19, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Mirokado (talk) 12:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Weak support from ZKang123
I will take a look at this. I had studied the composition before in my A levels days, and I might have some understanding of the ballet.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Lead:

Background and commission:
 * "Appalachian Spring is a ballet and orchestral work by the American composer Aaron Copland and the choreographer Martha Graham."
 * From my understanding, Aaron Copland composed the music while Graham did the ballet choreography. This article talks about both the music and the ballet. The way its ordered at the moment seems to imply the choreographer was involved in composing.
 * I will rewrite to "Appalachian Spring is a ballet and orchestral work by American composer Aaron Copland, with the original choreography by Martha Graham."
 * I implemented this with a small change to phrasing; technically, both Graham and Copland devised the scenario, so I kept them together with "created" MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "It was composed for Graham upon a commission by Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge" – "Commissioned by Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge, Copland composed the ballet for Graham"
 * "The work was very successful after its 1944 premiere, winning Copland the Pulitzer Prize for Music the following year." – "The music saw its success in the 1944 premiere, earning Aaron Copland the Pulitzer Prize for Music in the subsequent year."
 * Wikilink Great Depression
 * "Copland's political ideals began shifting further left" – "Copland's political ideals aligned towards the left"
 * Also wikilinke "left"
 * Remove the semi-colon with a comma.
 * "as a result, he had the idea to create ordinary music for the public, music that was easy and accessible enough for the general citizen to understand."
 * "As a result, he began composing ordinary music that were easy and accessible enough for the general citizen."
 * "He used this idea" – "He incorporated this concept"
 * ", and the final result drew from a number of the revisions." – I find this clause irrelevant after you mentioned of various revisions before
 * I have to admit you included a bit too much of Copland's backstory into this article. I would simplify further to focus more on his compositional tutelage and cut away stuff about his family (which I can read further in the composer's biography).
 * E.g. "The Copland family lived above their Brooklyn department store, which his parents spent much of their time managing; as a result, Copland was entrusted to the care of his older siblings." – this could be removed and skip over to him being close to his sister
 * "Exposed him" – "introduced him"
 * "consisted of" – remove of
 * "Copland wrote much of the composition on the West Coast" – I'm curious, why was he on the West Coast? If I recall he's from New York
 * Not stated in the sources. Franko says he was just in Hollywood, and Graham says he was "far" from her New York location MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Might then say he was also working at Hollywood. Was also checking with Oxford Music Library (Grove Music) on his biography by Neil Lerner which stated "Dividing his time between East and West Coasts, Copland continued to score Hollywood films throughout the 1940s." --ZKang123 (talk) 01:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "an Indian girl to represent the land" – would clarify Native American instead of Indian. Also might wikilink Native American
 * Used "American Indian" instead, since it more closely aligns with the sources. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd rather if you use "Native American", unless it's a country jargon (ex: Indian Reserve or statute Indian in Canada).--ZKang123 (talk) 02:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "contained an extra episode" – "included an extra episode"
 * "the premiere was pushed to the fall." – I guess of 1944?

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:07, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * All have been implemented; I replied above if I didn't implement the comment in its full form. Thank you! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Production, reception:
 * "the Daughter, now the Bride", "the Citizen, now the Husbandman" – would rather write "the Daughter to the Bride; the Citizen to the Husbandman" etc
 * "Four Followers of the Revivalist were added to the cast for a total of nine dancers." – So there are nine dancers in total overall? Or 13?
 * For the last two paragraphs of the production subsection, as it's more about the commentary and comments by critics, why is it in this section instead of the reception section? I will keep the parts of the intentions, then shift the actors' performances to the reception section.
 * Wikilink "The New York Times critic". Also John Martin

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:24, 19 September 2023 (UTC)


 * All fixed! On point three: these sentences are supposed to describe the choreography. I had a hard time deciding what counted as a review and what was effectively describing the dance, so I've cut some things. Let me know what you think- thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Also fixed native american and added the west coast fact- thanks for finding that source! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:20, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Before I go on, may I know why the music and plot sections combined? I don't see as such for The Rite of Spring and The Firebird, though also for Petrushka (ballet).--ZKang123 (talk) 10:11, 21 September 2023 (UTC)


 * @ZKang123, there is no particular reason to divide the two sections. The story and the music are closely connected, and explaining them at the same time is intuitive and helpful. Philip 2018 explains the plot and music the same way (though, with less detail). MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:02, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, I tried modeling much of this article and The Firebird after The Rite's article, since The Rite is a FA. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:21, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Alright thanks for the above explanation. And yes, I can see the parallels made, though bear in mind they are slightly older FAs. Continuing.

Music and plot:
 * "Suddenly, an energetic melody" – "A sudden energetic melody". Or just remove suddenly and write "burst forth" instead of "come forth"
 * "Swing-like" – further elaborate how the melody is "swing-like". Like, is it the rhythm, or the intervals?
 * Might also show an example of "jagged rhythms". Like, is it a dotted quaver - semiquaver?
 * The sources don't really elaborate on this. Pollack also describes the rhythms as "mov[ing] jaggedly"; based on my knowledge of the score, I can say that "jagged" is describing the 3/4, 2/4, to 5/8 metre change, but I can't find a source that reflects this; and, IMO, adding another musical excerpt would be a bit extensive, but if you think it's needed, I'm not vehemently opposed MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "caring melody" – "soothing melody"?
 * You mention of a duet (Eden Valley). You didn't mention what instrument was playing the energetic opening of this movement. Further elaborate. Or is this duet referring more to the ballet than the music? If so, then duo
 * The energetic opening was played by the upper strings and piano, so mentioning an instrument is sort of a moot point since it's half the orchestra. Otherwise, I've clarified that it refers to the dance MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "this time with louder and more forceful strings" – "this time accompanied by louder and more forceful strings"
 * "Copland achieves this by relating the music to American folk themes" – might further elaborate on other inspirations and folk elements incoporated
 * I can't find much other than the fiddling mentioned after and the relation to County Fairs mentioned before that sentence MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "such as the harmony or which instruments are playing" – "such as the harmony and the instrumentation."
 * "The music of "Fear of the Night" jolts and twitches, similar to the "Gun Battle" in Billy the Kid." – Jolts and twitches... I guess in mode (angry, sad etc)?
 * Added nervously, which is the only emotion described in the source MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "becomes rushing and agitated" – "becomes rushed and agitated"
 * I might also note the slower tempo and harmonies (is it tonal and/or dissonant?) in "The Lord's Day" subsection
 * Can't find any sources for the music part. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I recall in my American music studies about the "openness" of the ballet to reflect the "prairie" of the American countryside, with the wider range of notes and notably also illustrated through the longer-held notes for the slower sections. I'm not sure of the source, but I think you can relook into your sources. Optional if you can't find it.
 * I can find a good bit of information regarding the association of the prairie with Billy the Kid, but nothing about Appalachian Spring. There's certainly some level of association between Copland's Americana music and the idea of the Wild West, but the writings I found talked about Billy the Kid instead. Certainly a good point though- thanks for bringing it up! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * No other prose problems in the suites and recordings section.

That's all for me.--ZKang123 (talk) 09:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , thank you very much for your review- I've replied to some above, but I addressed them all! Many of the ones about expanding upon the description of the music or themes could not be implemented since I couldn't find any sources. That was one difficulty in rewriting this article- many sources talk about the history of it and the general idea of the plot, but few actually go in depth into the music or the themes (it's a miracle I was even able to have a themes section, you probably noticed it only uses four sources). Thank you for the review! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You might want to refer to Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring By Annegret Fauser, from page 39 onwards. If you can, try to dig up this article from The American Music Teacher. There are also doctoral dissertations on the music you can refer to, but I might urge caution given WP:PRIMARY. Tonal Coherence in Copland's Music of the 1940s (Kleppinger, Stanley V.), Copland and Stravinsky on the parallels between "APPALACHIAN SPRING" AND "APOLLON MUSAGETE", and Tonality and harmonic motion in Copland's "Appalachian Spring" (Rober, Russell Todd). I will hold off giving my support until more is elaborated on the music.--ZKang123 (talk) 14:05, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @ZKang123, thanks for finding these sources. Fauser page 83 disproves the "open prairie" idea; it says that the idea of the frontier as a prairie was found in Rodeo but disregarded for Appalachian Spring, replaced by the idea of a peaceful settlement. The slower tempo in "The Lord's Day" has been added; found little about about the harmonies, but added some about the restatement of the Eden Valley theme. I clarified the American folk themes detail too. Note that I didn't look through the theses yet, but I've found in the past that theses are often extremely complex when discussing music theory, so I hesitate to use them. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:41, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification of the other bits, especially the "open prairie" idea. However, I personally believe the "music and plot" subsection is still pretty thin on music theory and commentary, with a bit more weight on the overall plot. There are general descriptions of what theme/mood each music tries to convey, but fails to describe how, without sufficient references to the musical features (rhythm, tonality, texture, instrumentation). I'm more aware of the lack of details given I have studied the music before. This would be more forgivable if this were a GA nomination instead of an FA candidate. Henceforth, I am opposed to promoting this article to FA at this stage on the grounds of failing criteria 1b (comprehensive) and 1c (well-researched). For further references, you can consult Symphony No. 8 (Mahler), Sonatas and Interludes (more modern music by John Cage), Carmen and other musical works which have more comprehensive commentaries of their respective music.--ZKang123 (talk) 12:46, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @ZKang123, I have attempted to expand upon the music and techniques used based on the Fauser book. Thanks again for finding this source, and I apologize for the delay in response- I hope you are willing to reconsider based on the revisions made. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 21:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Other minor points.
 * cued by a short phrase in the woodwinds. – short motif
 * [141][103][139] – order of references
 * Per WP:REFORDER, it ain't mandatory to arrange refs by number.  Gerald WL  17:04, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I am able to offer a weak support. I personally think this article would fare better at GAN than FAC as it still requires some work, and could see better writing by someone more familiar with American music. Understandably, this is also a rather modern piece which might not have sufficient coverage or commentary just yet and also more for a general audience than someone studying music.--ZKang123 (talk) 13:23, 9 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Fair enough then. I appreciate the shift, and thank you for the full review. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 00:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Image review

 * What's the copyright status of the music itself?
 * As a music student, as far as I'm aware this piece was composed in the 40s, and I doubt the copyright has expired.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * File:Coolidge_Auditorium_under_construction.jpg: where is this believed to have been published in 1925?


 * File:Pulitzer_Prizes_(medal).png is tagged as a 2D work, but medals are generally considered to be 3D. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:18, 17 September 2023 (UTC)


 * @Nikkimaria, I'm not sure what you mean by 2D tagged- can you clarify? The LOC website for the Coolidge Auditorium photo says it was published in 1925, and it was very likely published in the US since it was taken by a capitol architect. The music is under copyright internationally, but I believe the use is minimal, as in other FAs about copyrighted works like Short Symphony and Symphony No. 3 (Górecki). MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 12:17, 17 September 2023 (UTC)


 * PD-scan is based on mechanical reproduction of a 2D work - it can't be used for 3D works.
 * The LOC website says "published/created" - we don't know whether that means published and created, or just created, without more information.
 * Brief quotations from non-free works are allowed, but inline citation is required. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:39, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nikkimaria: for the pulitzer medal, I added PD-coin, because I can't find anything else that would fit it. If this isn't proper, please let me know what is needed to verify that it's PD.
 * Coolidge auditorium: I am having an extremely difficult time finding information about this photo's provenance. The LOC listing says its found in a published guide called "Washingtonia Photographs". The (thankfully public domain) guide can be found online, but the page that mentions this photograph doesn't actually display the photo (see LOT 4021). Though it mentions a name on the back, I cannot find any information about a "John Crane", so the death date is unknown too. PD-US-unpublished won't work, since anonymous works must be created over 120 years ago to be PD, but I also can't prove its publication. Does the mention in "Washingtonia Photographs" qualify?
 * Added citations for the musical quotations. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 16:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)


 * A simple mention without the image doesn't qualify, no - have you found any publication of the actual image? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:58, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nikkimaria, no, I have not. The only place I can find it is in the LOC exhibit linked under sources. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 00:16, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Okay. You've stated that it was taken by a capitol architect - is that certain? I see "probably secured from" at the given source. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:23, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nikkimaria: I didn't think "probably secured from" was sufficient- do you think it's enough to say it's PD since it's taken by a US gov't employee? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 00:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * No - unfortunately without more information I don't think we can use it. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:29, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nikkimaria Cut MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:36, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nikkimaria, does the image review pass? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 23:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:25, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

GWL
Hey there! As an appreciation for the plethora of comments you put on my PR, I thought perhaps this would be a fun little QPQ.  Gerald WL  07:33, 20 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I think I've gotten everything; if I didn't respond to a comment, I implemented/fixed it without question. Thank you so much for the thorough read-through! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Your welcome! I've responded to two comments, you can notice them by my signature.  Gerald WL  04:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gerald Waldo Luis Fixed both MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Support -- I think it looks much better now, wish this FAC all the best!  Gerald WL  03:43, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments and support from Gerda
I am pleased with changes made in response to remarks in the PR, and will read it once more as if I hadn't seen it before. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox Lead
 * In the pic caption, I'd give the full name with a link, - this is not her article with her full name on top.
 * "The music saw its success in the 1944 premiere", - it may be my language, but can't imagine the music "seeing" anything ;)
 * "most well-known works" - same, why is this not "best-known works", and - more important - what will a reader think who never heard any of Copland's music, just came for the dance?
 * "the Bride, a brave woman; the Husbandman, who is to marry the Bride; the Pioneer Woman, the mother of the Bride; and the Revivalist, an evangelist ..." - that reads a bit unfair:
 * the Bride is brave, but the others have no character
 * that the Husbandman is to marry the Bride comes as no surprise, while it has indeed to be explained that the Pioneer Woman is her mother
 * Perhaps just the role names in the lead, and (more) detail later?
 * Chronology: somehow it irritates me that, after having read details about the ballet's production, we get to the composer's background and style (before the commission). If the commission went to him because of it, it should be mentioned sooner.
 * I also think that there's much detail of Copland's background but almost nothing about Graham's.

Background
 * Just by size, here as well is much more detail given to him than to her. Much of that detail it is not particularly related to creating a ballet, such as the name of his theory teacher (just as an example).
 * I cut the unnecessary info about Copland. IMO, what's left is important to understanding why the ballet's score is so simplistic with modernist touches; if you still think some is unnecessary, go ahead and just cut it, I trust your instinct. For Graham's background, there wasn't too much that was needed to explain the context- the mention of American Document explains her like of American themes and general style, and the commissioning fact helps one understand why she wanted to commission Appalachian Spring. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 02:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Commission
 * I wonder if the 1960s image of Copland helps this article.
 * There is no other free image of Copland available (that I could find), and I believe a depiction of the composer is needed in any article that has a musical aspect- though, I do understand how the time difference is odd. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 02:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * What do you think of mentioning the rather small orchestra in the lead?
 * I find it a bit confusing that the characters have different names even in the "final scenario", - Citizen vs. Husbandman, for example.
 * Tried to clarify with efns, let me know if more is needed. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 02:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Production
 * Can the final name come sooner, reading that the poet inspired the scenarios already?
 * I'm not sure where else to put it, since placing that para in "Commission and composition" is chronologically incorrect. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 02:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I read about "a wedding not really being depicted but emotions" twice, and rather similarly, - yes, one is press, but still.
 * And shouldn't the press part be under "Reception"?
 * The press quote mentioned is, IMO, not being used as a review- it's being used to describe the choreo, which is what that para is about. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 02:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Premiere
 * "on January 23" - please add year
 * There's no hint at a U.S. tour in the section header, nor in the lead?
 * Talking about the tour is important to understanding the initial reception; I changed the section header to "Initial run", but did not add it to the lead, as the lead doesn't discuss performance history (albeit the premiere). MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 02:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Themes
 * Why not beginning first?
 * Understanding the war themes (para 1) is important to understanding the Pioneer Woman's unique character (para 2), so it's ordered by level of understanding. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 02:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "The lyrics of "Simple Gifts" had a connection to the ballet's themes of war and peace: "'Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free"." - Why "had"? And what's the connection?

Music and plot
 * I suggest to use one set of character names for this section, either those from the "final" scenario, or those assigned in the first performance.
 * All the character names used in "Music and plot" should be the ones from the final scenario; if there are any mistakes, let me know, but I couldn't find any. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 02:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I'll look at this more closely later. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * , all have been fixed except a few that I responded to above- thank you very much! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 02:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, appreciated! - I was busy all day yesterday to improve a biography, and am behind with a few more, - patience please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * One quick reply: we have only one image of Bach, and he is old, and therefore we have few of his works showing an image of the composer. We have many of Rossini, and it was fun to assign them to his operas by time frame, and further even with a smile for the buffa and serious for the seria ;) - Some editors absolutely want an image of the composer, and others think it has nothing to do in a work's article. I don't like old Handel being pictured in his youthful works, but can't prevent it for articles I didn't write. Take Rinaldo. Not too long ago, that even was the first image you saw, because it came with the side navbox. Now deleted. If you never saw that you didn't miss much ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You make a fair point- cut then. I worry about the lack of illustration in that section, but there's not much to be added. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 00:41, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Before going over the responses (which I all read) I'll read to the end.

Prologue
 * "a shepherd-flute like reiteration of the triad" - is a second hyphen perhaps missing?

Eden Valley
 * I wonder if we need quotation marks for Prologue.
 * They were added per someone else's comments, can't remember who- but, it is the title of an episode rather than a general section, so I think it makes sense. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * link call and response?

Wedding Day
 * please fix "The uneven rhythms disappear are replaced by consistent eighth notes".

Fear ...
 * "As the music begins to calm, the chorale returns as the Husbandman briefly comes back" - too much "as", no?

Suites
 * I think the movement titles - even if only tempos - should be given, perhaps even be connected to which part in the action they correspond.
 * Added tempos- I didn't add the actions since the dance is not relevant to the concert suite. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Recording
 * I would probably say Suite when this particular suite is meant, as for the first recording.
 * I believe it's important to clarify that the orchestral suite was recorded, since there are multiple suites- after that, just "suite" is used. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * May we know the performers of the first rec of the Suite, and of the first of the Ballet.
 * I added Hodes' involvement, but I can't find any other info about the performers in the 1958 film. The first rec suite performer is already named: NYPhil. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * May we know about how many of the total recs are Suite, and how many the Ballet?
 * I cannot find this information- Presto Music only lists total recordings. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

That's it for now, I'll be back. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:12, 12 October 2023 (UTC) New run across, with a few new comments below. I accept all your previous replies (even if I would probably do some things differently if "my" article).

Lead
 * link suite, please
 * How about Graham and her background first, as the ballet idea was more, and first, related to her?
 * I believe that first performance, reception, tour and recordings deserve a little summary, - more important to me for this article than four links to his other successful pieces.

Background
 * I don't believe we need the background of what he all did for financial stability in such detail.

Commission and composition
 * I suggest to include scenarios into the header, and perhaps drop composition, as not much is said about it here.
 * Used "writing" since that encompasses composition and scenarios. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

 Production
 * something went missing in "Despite being set during in such a scenario, the choreography does not explicitly depict a wedding"
 * "The Bride's movements featured quick patterns that stayed within an imaginary box around her." - I don't understand the box, but ignore if I'm the only one.
 * This is more or less what the source says short of quoting- it has to do with how her movements were very square and restrained, but I'm not sure how else to phrase this. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Initial run
 * ref order after "public"

Later
 * Licensing - is there a link to that kind of creator's rights?
 * It's probably just one of "my" personal issues, but I try to avoid this "under" (someone, someone's baton ...), suggesting hierarchy. We talk almost 2000 here, with a bit more colleague atmosphere than subordination, - one hopes.
 * What is the fine difference betweenn the MGD company and the MGD center, - why two links I mean. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:03, 13 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I do not see any links to the MGD center present- am I missing something? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 20:48, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * In that section, piped "Martha Graham Center". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:05, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gerda Arendt, I'm not sure what to clarify. The dance company is for actual performing and the center includes her estate and the dance school with her name. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 23:52, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Now that's something I can understand, thank you ;) - Perhaps bring as much clarity into the introduction of the Center? --GA
 * @Gerda Arendt, all addressed- I don't think there's any link for licensing that makes sense for this, so I think it's fine as is. Thank you! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 20:52, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:42, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Coord question
, three and a half supports and it's been over 21 days- may I open another nomination? Thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 12:07, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid not, it also needs to have passed image and source reviews. Ask again once it has. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:08, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gog the Mild, image and source reviews have passed- now may I? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You may. (Apologies for the delay, I have been away. You may get a swifter response from {{@FAC)) in future.) Gog the Mild (talk) 13:18, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Source review
Spot-check only on request and qualifying that I am not familiar with the article topic. The archive links for Dickinson, Peter (2016) and Salas, Juan Orrego (Autumn 1948) are probably unnecessary and somewhat inconsistent with the use of archives elsewhere in this article. The sources in the "Sources" section include some choreographers; are these "high-quality reliable sources"? It seems like the source formatting is consistent and the necessary information is available. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:16, 14 October 2023 (UTC)


 * @Jo-Jo Eumerus, cut archive links. I don't see why the choreographer-written sources would be low quality since they're either about dance or memoirs of people involved with the production. de Mille 1991 is used for choreography and the production's film history. That's the only source I can find that matches your description- are there others you're concerned about? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 18:47, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of the few sources whose authors have linked Wikipedia pages that call them choreographers. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Jo-Jo Eumerus, in that case, de Mille is the only one, and I've stated my case for her above. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 19:22, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not the only source - Martha Graham is another one. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:27, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Jo-Jo Eumerus Whoops, forgot about that- but, still, Blood Memory is a memoir. The citations to it are used to support details about Graham's life and how she produced the ballet. IMO, this usage is appropriate and a "high-quality reliable source" for details about her life. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 00:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * OK then. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Jo-Jo Eumerus, to clarify, does the source review pass? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:10, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, with the abovementioned two caveats. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:26, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Phlsph7
This is not my field of expertise so I'll focus mainly on some general observations without properly assessing things like factual accuracy, undue weight, and comprehensiveness.


 * WP:EARWIG shows a few matches. One is a pdf-file containing a simple copy-paste of our article and the others are due to quotations.
 * All passages in the body of the article have references.
 * Some references use the short citation style and are listed in the subsection "Sources" while others present the full source in the citation and are not listed in the subsection "Sources". Maybe there is a good reason for this. If not, consistency would be better.
 * My logic was that if only one page from a book/article was used then there was no need to put in "Sources". MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 19:05, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The manual of style requires consistency but does not specify a particular style. Since the article seems to be consistent in this regard, it shouldn't be a problem. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Some of the sfn-templates use the parameter "p" when the parameter "pp" should be used because they refer to several pages, e.g. and.


 * "19th-century" has a hyphen when used as an adjective:
 * : "wild west" should be uppercase
 * replace "its" with "their"
 * I think this should be "attends".
 * replace "more stiff" with "stiffer"
 * This sentence could benefit from a slight rephrasing for clarity. Would be better?
 * replace "makes" with "make"
 * I think "sends her into turmoil" would be better
 * add "in" before "October"
 * replace "roll" with "role"
 * I think "sends her into turmoil" would be better
 * add "in" before "October"
 * replace "roll" with "role"

Phlsph7 (talk) 08:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The 1st lead paragraph already states that Coolidge commissioned it so I don't think it needs to be repeated in the 2nd lead paragraph.
 * This sentence is formulated as if "the choreographer" refers to someone else than Graham. Maybe replace it with "Graham".
 * The first part of the 2nd lead paragraph discusses background information. Would it make sense to make the relation between this background information and the work itself more explicit?


 * @Phlsph7, thank you very much for the review! Replied to one above, and on your last point- I'm not too sure what you mean, but I added something that I think matches your suggestion. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 02:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * One example of what I meant was that the paragraph talks about other Americana ballets by Copland but does not mention that Appalachian Spring also belongs to this style. I was thinking about something along the following lines: But take this more as a neutral point to consider than a required change since you are more familiar with the topic and this type of article to decide whether this would be an improvement.
 * Overall, the article seems to be in great shape. A few more observations:
 * replace "depression" with "Great Depression"
 * Is there wide academic consensus on this point or should this be attributed?
 * I'm not sure what to make of the last phrase "clarified by the closing waves of goodbye". What about replacing it with a sentence like "This is reflected in its final scene, which features waves of goodbye"?
 * This sentence could be clarified. I assume their behavior suggests hysteria. What about
 * Phlsph7 (talk) 10:01, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Phlsph7, all addressed, and I tried changing some stuff in the lead- take a look and let me know if it's what you meant. As for the second point: I do not know if this needs another ref. That statement is currently referenced to Pollack's book, which I formerly accessed through Internet Archive, but access to it has now been removed (probably due to the lawsuit) and the Google Books preview doesn't include the referenced page. Though, I'm quite sure I would not have referenced something unsupported in the source. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:56, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether Pollack is a primary source on this claim (making his own assessment) or a secondary source (reporting a widespread opinion in the academic discourse). In the second case, there is no problem. In the first case, one solution would be to attribute the claim to Pollack. Another might be to weaken the claim, maybe something like "distinguishing Copland's versatility as a composer". Phlsph7 (talk) 08:05, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Phlsph7, weakened the claim as suggested, thanks for that MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 16:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, looks good now. I think all the main points have been addressed and I'm happy to support this nomination. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for the thorough review! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 12:40, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

FrB.TG (talk) 18:10, 22 October 2023 (UTC)