Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Art Houtteman


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:07, 22 June 2008.

Art Houtteman
previous FAC (04:36, 22 January 2008)

After having the article pass GA and having it looked at by several people, I believe I solved any problems from the last FAC, and am trying my hand at making this an FA again. Comments really appriciated, of course :) Wizardman  00:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments

Gary King ( talk ) 00:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Done Wizardman  21:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * Support All my concerns have been addressed. Very well-written, plenty of good info and well-referenced. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  00:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I don't lean towards unreliable on http://bioproj.sabr.org/ but some more information about how it's percieved in the media would help with other reviewers.
 * Can we get the titles of publications in italics?
 * What makes http://baseball-almanac.com/index.shtml a reliable source?
 * Otherwise sources look good. Links all checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec) I'm unsure about Baseball Library Almanac, so I recommend Retrosheet as a replacement. SABR is a well-known organization in the baseball world, so it should be possible to prove that their people are experts in the field. Since I'm watching the NBA Finals tonight, I'll look for media stories tomorrow. Giants2008 (talk) 01:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * While I'm here, some printed sources lack page numbers, which are needed for verification purposes. Giants2008 (talk) 01:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The baseball almanac ref I can move to retrosheet, as it's the same information anyway. As for the page numbers, I'm fairly sure that the ones that don't have them don't have them only because I couldn't find them anywhere. I can look through them again, but I put in whatever information I could find. Wizardman  00:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I found an editors page on the SABR site here and it appears discouraging. While it includes several book authors, it doesn't seem that they are all experts, and the Chief Editor's credentials in particular are uninspiring. This is crucial because the FAC is in deep trouble without this source. This is the page of Houtteman's bio author. It does say he is the editor of a trade publication in Washington, but nothing on what publication. Giants2008 (talk) 20:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * On the positive side, the biography does list its sources. Giants2008 (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks reliable to me. ff m  22:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Okies, now that I'm done with the horse show that was taking up most of my time, what's the status? Did we replace baseball almanac? And what's the status on SABR? Ealdgyth - Talk 15:23, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I went and changed the reference over to Retrosheet. As for SABR, it seems like it would be okay, at least for this bio because SABR does cite sources for its own bio. Plus, the author of Houtteman is a rather prolific one on the site, so it seems okay. Plus, without it there's virtually no chance of it even being a GA, since that's where all the family info is coming from. Wizardman  16:22, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll leave the SABR out for other reviewers to decide on their own. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Can someone verify how Warren Corbett meets WP:SPS? What trade publication? Need to track down that he is published by reliable, independent sources as an expert in the field. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 18:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * He's accepted as a baseball historian by Major League Baseball here. I'll try and track down some more. Wizardman  20:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That works. Can you do a lingo check?  I found some undefined terms in the lead.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll go through tomorrow and do cleanup/lingo checks where I can find any issues. Wizardman  03:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments Nousernamesleft copper, not wood 02:36, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Support My comments have been addressed. Good job with the article.  Black  ngold29   03:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * For the win-loss record, that's not a range, so I'm fairly sure it should just be a hyphen, not an en dash.
 * No, win-loss record requires an en dash. 7–9 not 7-9. See WP:DASH. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "He was called up to the majors into a pitching staff that lost players due to injuries and being called up to fight in WWII." - awkward, rephrase.
 * In the link "All-Star appearance," I think only "All Star" should be linked - put "appearance" after the link.
 * "He played three more seasons with the Tigers, then he was traded to Cleveland, where he pitched for the pennant-winning Indians of 1954."
 * "he finished his career in the minor leagues for a couple seasons, then Houtteman retired and became a sales executive in Detroit before his death in 2003." - erm, capital letter at the beginnning of the sentence? ;) Also, you first refer to Houtteman by a pronoun and then by his last name, which sounds awkward. One last thing - his death probably deserves a separate sentence, and it sounds awkward squashed into this one.
 * Done. Wizardman  18:30, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - prose looks good. Nousernamesleft copper, not wood 03:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments Not too bad for the most part. If I get time, I'll perform some cleanup myself in the next few days. Giants2008 (talk) 18:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Inconsistent number usage in the second paragraph of the lead. We have "age of 17" and "fifteen games". If the choice was mine, I would change the first of these to avoid having a number end a sentence, but it's up to you.
 * Capitalization error: "he finished his career".
 * Early life: Link 1927 since it is a full date and the remainder is linked.
 * Detroit Tigers, Hard Luck Houtteman: We don't need his first name again here.
 * Redundancy: "yet suffered an extra inning 2–0 loss despite this." Yet and despite this.
 * "Houtteman pitched 13 games as a relief pitcher" Try "Houtteman appeared in 13 games as a relief pitcher".
 * And before "an earned run average".
 * "At the end of the season, Houtteman was declared by six of the eight minor league managers as the top minor league pitching prospect in the International League." Reword to: "At the end of the season, Houtteman was declared by six of the eight International League managers as the top pitching prospect in the league." Also remove being from the next sentence.
 * Capitalize Hall of Famer.
 * In fact, his first victory".
 * "He then lost eight more" Needs to say games.
 * "when tragedy nearly struck". Be very careful with phrases like this, as they can easily be seen as POV.
 * Done with all of them except the final point. I understand your concern, however if someone dies in a car wreck, tragedy strikes. He almost died, so tragedy nearly struck. That's the way i see it, and i can't think of a good way to reword it. Wizardman  22:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I still don't like the tragedy part. The guideline WP:EUPHEMISM lists tragedy as a word to avoid. I would write "when he nearly died in an automobile accident." The rest of it looks okay, so I give Provisional Support due to source concerns. If the SABR site is not considered reliable, this FAC is pretty much done. If other reviewers okay the site, count me as a full support. Giants2008 (talk) 19:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright. I went and changed that sentence. I'll see if I can get more opinions on whether or not the source is reliable enough (I think SABR's one of those where a case-by-case basis would have done) Wizardman  22:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * My source concern looks to be taken care of above. The author seems to be a notable baseball historian, so I now give my full Support. Good job on the article. (Full disclosure: I made a few fixes myself, as I said I would above. Nothing major, just some minor edits.) Giants2008 (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

 Close to Support I've done some CE today. I know this fine article has been at FAC since the 9th, but could the nominator and User:SandyGeorgia spare me another hour or two in the morning? Graham Colm Talk 20:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * OK. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 21:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the one thing that's keeping it from being closed is a nice copyedit to fix some jargon and the like, so by all means take your time and do what you can. :) Wizardman  21:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * All done except for this odd sentence which I suspect is jargon: This was due to Jim Delsing who was caught stealing after a single, and the two batters that were walked were caught in double plays. It's the were walked were caught phrase. Graham Colm Talk 09:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I went and removed it, it really didn't contribute much and was indeed jargon. Thanks for reviewing it and fixing it up. Wizardman  13:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia: Have your concerns been addressed? GrahamColm seems to have taken care of the jargon issue. Wizardman 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.