Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Artemy Vedel/archive1

Artemy Vedel

 * Nominator(s): Amitchell125 (talk) 07:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

This article is about a Ukrainian composer, little known outside his own country, who composed mainly liturgical works based on Ukrainian folk melodies, and who made an important contribution in the music history of Ukraine. The article received peer review comments from Gerda Arendt and Tim riley. All feedback comments would be, as always, much appreciated. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Comments Support from Tim riley
I suggested at PR that a section on recordings could be added. I still think it would be a useful addition, but a quick check on existing life-and-works FAs about composers shows that some, including such big fish as Mahler and Mendelssohn, have been elevated to FA without one, and so it must I think be accepted that the lack of one here is not cause for objection on grounds of FA criterion 1b (comprehensiveness).
 * I need to be pointed in the right direction with this one. There lots of recordings of Vedel's music that could be listed, but the information about them all comes from commercial websites, and there doesn't seem to be any reliable source that provides the information I need. The detailed WorldCat information available is already in the article's Authority Control, so there's not need to duplicate it higher up. Thoughts? Amitchell125 (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

A few minor comments on other points:
 * I assume the italicised sentence in the second para of the lead is inadvertent?
 * Yes, now sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)


 * There is a double full stop at the end of the lead.
 * Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:33, 14 November 2022 (UTC)


 * In the last para of the Imprisonment and death section, in "There was uncertainty about exactly when Vedel died ... The cause of Vedel's death ..." the second mention of Vedel's name could with advantage be replaced by a pronoun.
 * Agreed, done. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:34, 14 November 2022 (UTC)


 * In the Musical style section "Musicologists consider Vedel ... " is rather a sweeping assertion. The authors of the cited article so consider him, but that is not really enough to justify the implication of unanimity here.
 * Implication now gone. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:38, 14 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The last sentence is something of an anticlimax: "In 2016 the Ukrainian government announced its intention to commemorate the 250th anniversary of Vedel's birth in 2017". The reader may be forgiven for asking "And did it? How?" If you don't know and can't find out I think you should either say so or omit the existing sentence.
 * I think I've spent more time looking for how his anniversary was commemorated than was actually spent commemorating it. Sentence deleted accordingly. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I'll look in again with a view to supporting. –  Tim riley  talk   10:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for these comments Tim, and I'll do some research on recordings, with a view to adding to the article if possible. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:42, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * If the FAC coordinators are happy for me to contribute to the article having already supported its elevation (Ian, Gog or colleagues, what say you?) I shall be happy to run up a Recordings section for your consideration. Alternatively, if you fancy trying your hand at it, follow the link to WorldCat I put in my postscript to my comments at the peer review.  Tim riley  talk   19:37, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Of course, not a problem. Go for it. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Gog. I'll run up a draft section on recordings in the next day or so on the usual lines, for the nominator's consideration.  Tim riley  talk   22:45, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Alas having waded through the numerous entries in WorldCat for recordings of music by Vedel I find they mostly consist of multiple reissues of two recordings of a couple of pieces. I can't find anything like enough to base a Recordings section on, and I really must apologise for supposing there would be. Sorry, everyone, and I unconditionally withdraw the suggestion that we can have a Recordings section at all.  Tim riley  talk   22:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
 * After a final read-through I am happy to add my support. Good prose, clear exposition, evidently balanced and well sourced. The illustrations are no doubt as good as possible for this out-of-the-way subject. The article seems to me to meet the FA criteria.  Tim riley  talk   22:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Support from Gerda
I am happy with the changes made during the PR and support. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Image review

 * Suggest adding alt text
 * Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:38, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * File:Артемвй_Ведель,_меморіальна_дошка.JPG: as Ukraine does not have freedom of panorama, this needs a tag for the original work. Similarly File:Dvoeznamennik_17c_GIM.jpg, File:Дніпрові_кручі_у_Києві.jpg
 * File:Артемвй_Ведель,_меморіальна_дошка.JPG is of a modern sculpture, which appears to mean the image cannot be used. Did you have a particular tag in mind?
 * When was it created? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * 2008. (citation used in article). Did you have a particular tag in mind?
 * No - I agree without more information it seems unlikely the sculpture is PD. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Image removed, it's place now taken by the commemorative stamp. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:46, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * File:Dvoeznamennik_17c_GIM.jpg; File:Дніпрові_кручі_у_Києві.jpg; - Looking at c:Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory/Ukraine, which includes a statement about copyright protection for 3D works "expiring 70 years after the death of the original author (who is defined as the creator or designer) here". This appears to make them public domain images. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:55, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * We need explicit tags identifying why they are PD. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * File:Дніпрові кручі у Києві.jpg - own work by Alina Vozna, tagged accordingly.
 * The own work tag covers the photo - what is missing is something for the architecture. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Understood, but as the buildings date from the 11th-18th centuries. I, is there a specific tag available? I have searched for the correct PD tag for old buildings (including anything in photographs in FA architecture articles), without any success. Please, what is the correct tag I have to use? Amitchell125 (talk) 21:38, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * If you can confirm that all of the architecture pictured was erected in the 18th century or earlier, then PD-US-expired would work. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:16, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * File:Dvoeznamennik_17c_GIM.jpg - now done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:13, 19 November 2022 (UTC)


 * File:Pre-1811_map_of_Podil_(Kyiv)_-_cropped.svg: which rationale is believed to apply for Ukrainian status, and what is the status of the original work in the US?
 * Not sure, image removed. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:41, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * File:Kharkov's_Collegium_XVIII-XIX.jpg needs a US tag
 * Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Early 19th 20th century, or earlier. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:37, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay, but where though? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Kharkiv. It was published in the supplement to Dmytro Bahaliy's 2-volume История города Харькова за 250 лет его существования (1655-1905) (History of the City of Kharkov: 250 years of existence (1655-1905)), which was written in the first two decades of the 20th century.
 * When was that work published? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
 * 1912 (see link). Amitchell125 (talk) 10:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)


 * File:Кирилівський_монастир_на_мал._Ф._Солнцева,_1843.jpg is incorrectly tagged, as is File:Vedel_-_manuscript_of_Concert_No._12_(first_page).jpg
 * Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * For the former, the date given in the description is both more recent than 100 years ago and after 1927 - is that not accurate? If no, when and where was this first published, and what is the author's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The artist, Fedor Solntsev, died in 1892. I have corrected the date given on the WikiCommons page, as 1943 is an error. The tag is (I believe) correct. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:51, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * When and where was it first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a painting, so I'm unsure if a publication date (other than 1843, the date it was painted, as stated on the WikiCommons page) is appropriate. Also, I don't think the place it was painted is known, but it is likely to have been somewhere associated with the artist (e.g. his studio), and I don't think this information is relevant. Am I incorrect?
 * You are correct - what we care about is publication, as defined here. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I may have found what was needed—this link states that the watercolour appeared in an 1843 publication, now held in the V. G. Zabolotny State Scientific Architectural and Construction Library in Kyiv. I've amended the text in WikiCommons to explain this. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:43, 24 November 2022 (UTC)


 * File:Кошиць_Олександр.jpg needs a US tag and author date of death
 * Tag sorted, the author is unknown, so I have put this. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:05, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * In Kyiv, then part of the Russian Empire. Koshetz is wearing his seminary clothes, so it would have been taken there at the time he was a student. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:59, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * That helps to identify when the image was created, but we need to determine publication in order to assess US status. Is that known? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I've looked hard, but nothing has come up, so for the moment the publication date is not known. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:00, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay, what is the first publication that has been identified? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I have not been able to find any examples of books that includes the photograph, only online examples, as listed in WikiCommons. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:23, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay. The current tagging is based on the work being published before 1917 - if we can't demonstrate that, the tag will need to be changed to something that can be supported. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
 * As I don't know which tag you might be referring to, I've replaced the image with one that I believe has no issues (this), although I would have preferred to use the one of him as a younger man. Did you have a specific tag in mind? Amitchell125 (talk) 09:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Nikki, Amitchell, is this the only outstanding image query? Can we resolve, if we haven't already? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:12, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The image has been replaced, so we can proceed on that basis. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:31, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Tks Nikki, just needed to know the new image checked out. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:05, 2 December 2022 (UTC)


 * File:UA055-17.jpg: the Ukrainian tag states coins and banknotes are PD, but not stamps. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Is c:Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory/Ukraine incorrect? Amitchell125 (talk) 06:52, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hm. Probably worth amending the tag's language to reflect the information provided there. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I can try and get that done, but it's not something that needs to be done for this nomination, is it? Amitchell125 (talk) 09:04, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * No. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Support from Smerus
Nice article - but a couple of points:

a) the lead seems to me rather 'top-heavy' and over-detailed - you may want to consider thinning it out. Do we need, for example, Koshetz's comment on the difficulty of performance quoted twice in the article?
 * Agreed - lead section trimmed down a bit. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:52, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

b) Where you are sourcing articles/websites in Ukrainian, you should make it clear in the citation that the original is in Ukrainian, and, most important of all, you must check your translations. Maybe you are using Google Translate? As examples
 * 1) 'ТЕЛЕПЕРЕДАЧА «ОЧИМА КУЛЬТУРИ». № 28. НЕСУСВІТНІЙ АРТЕМ ВЕДЕЛЬ' does not translate as ' "Television "through the eyes of culture" – No 28 Non-world Artem Knowledge" but as ' "TV show "Through the Eyes of Culture" – No 28 The unworldly Artem Vedel"
 * 2) "Ведель Артем Лук'янович – композитор, диригент, співак, скрипаль" does not translate as "Artem Lukyanovich in charge: composer, conductor, singer, violinist" but as (in English standard name order) "Artem Lukyanovich Vedel: composer, conductor, singer, violinist"

Please go through your sources and check the translations are accurate - otherwise this article cannot merit FA status.

Best, --Smerus (talk) 11:02, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Ouch! I thought I'd checked these, I have a friend who will help with this, I'll let you know when the Ukrainian has been re-checked. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:02, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Citations in other languages all noted. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:10, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Corrections to translations from other languages into English have been done—with thanks to Ата to helping here. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:52, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Great, I am therefore happy to support the article as FA. --Smerus (talk) 13:57, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Source review – Pass
Finding little to say—content wise—I feel I can best help here with a source review. Will do soon.  Aza24  (talk)   22:29, 28 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Formatting
 * I tweaked a few things
 * We sure its not transliterated as "Ihor"? e.g. Ihor Sonevytsky
 * I've changed any Igors into Ihor for Sonevytsky. There are Russians called Ihor and Ukrainians called Igor—and sometimes I have found both versions of the name for the same person—so it's not always clear what the transliteration should be. I'll do some double checking, and make changes if needed. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Why no title case for the English title of Tylyk 2018?
 * Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:12, 29 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Reliability
 * No issues


 * Verifiability
 * I was unable to find an OCLC or any other identifier for Potemkin, and assume you don't know of one?
 * Yes, I looked in vain as well. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:58, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * No worries, especially considering we have direct online access to the publication anyways


 * For FAC coords: I have not done formal spot checks, but some were done by Smerus above & the nom has a history of FAs.  Aza24  (talk)   22:44, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Pass for source review.  Aza24  (talk)   19:39, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 13:06, 2 December 2022 (UTC)