Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Australia women's national wheelchair basketball team at the 2012 Summer Paralympics/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Graham Colm 16:57, 29 March 2014.

Australia women's national wheelchair basketball team at the 2012 Summer Paralympics

 * Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:11, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

This article is about one of Australia's greatest sporting teams, and their campaign at the London Paralympic Games in 2012. It had a previous review, but did not make it due to lack of reviewers. Now that the holidays are over, I hope it will be promoted this time. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:11, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Feedback from Curly Turkey
I'm comically inexpert when it comes to sports topics. Feel free to disagree with any of the nerdish gibberish I may waste your time with below (some of which may not affect FA eligibility at all):


 * Overall well written, by the tone at times makes it sound more like a sports broadcast than an encyclopaedia
 * Alt text would be a nice, handicapped-friendly addition to the images

Prose
———Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * " round robin tournament ": is there some reason you do this, instead of " round-robin tournament "?
 * "Canada and the Netherlands, two of which, Canada and the Netherlands, had recently beaten them.": I might reword this to "Canada and the Netherlands, the last two of which had recently beaten them.", which sounds less repetitious and avoids some commas.
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "semi final against": not "semi-final" or "semifinal"?
 * Too right. The article is written in Australian English. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "Sydney and the 2004 Summer Paralympics in Athens, and bronze at the 2008 Summer Paralympics in Beijing": "Sydney", "Athens", and "Beijing" may be overlinking
 * Unlinked the city names. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "team mate Merritt": not "team-mate" or "teammate"?
 * Bloody oath. The article is written in Australian English. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "John Triscari acknowledged that Canada "will be a tough side to beat, as will the Netherlands, who historically have beaten us by just a few points on a few occasions"."; "Crispin told the media that "We will go out": a style I dislike—when read aloud, there's no indication where the quote begins, so the switch from third- to first-person is jarring
 * I like it. I can hear their voices. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, you would expect the author to. Imagine this going through a screenreader. Curly Turkey (gobble) 11:48, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "also known at the "Marshmallow" ": I get the feeling the "the" should be within the quotemarks
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "from watching some video tapes": "some" could safely be dropped
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "the score was 45–43": for who? It's not obvious until the next sentence
 * Add a bit to make it clearer. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We might want to avoid words like "acknowledged" and "admitted"
 * Replaced with "said". Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:08, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * "We can work on a few things"."; "It really was bad"."; "that was the key statistic".": in these cases, the period would go inside the quotemarks, even with the "logical quote" style.
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "Australia's top players were Crispin, who had 13 points and 15 rebounds, Merritt, who earned 16 points, and Chaplin, with eight points, five rebounds and seven assists.": this might be easier to parse with some semicolons before "Merritt" and "and Charlie"
 * Shelley, not Charlie! Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "in her British accent,": why are we being told this? Does the accent make the remark sarcastic or something?
 * This came up during the GA review, and Christine had me insert it. To me, the quote is subtly ironic, but she thought that readers would not get this unless they remembered the player bios at the top of the page. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "but Kean soon equalised,": is "equalised" a common way to say someone's tied the score?
 * Yes. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "The Dutch team threw everything they had": I'd expect to see this in news reports, but is this really encyclopaedic wording?
 * Re-worded. Sigh. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "improved 9/14 accuracy": what does "9/14 accuracy" mean?
 * Basketball speak. Nine scoring shots from 14 attempts. Which, incidentally, is pretty good. Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "key play maker": key maker of plays or maker of key plays?
 * Key maker of plays. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Then you'll want either "play-maker" or "playmaker" to kill the ambiguity. Curly Turkey (gobble) 11:48, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "The loss to Canada meant that the Gliders had won three out of four games, the same number as Canada and the Netherlands, but they were placed ahead of the Netherlands based on defeating them, while Canada failed to defeat Great Britain by a sufficient margin, and therefore finished third.": an awfully long sentence. Consider splitting it up?
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "biggest of the entire game": you could safely drop "entire"
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "Gauci then put points on the scoreboard for the Gliders.": not literally, I assume
 * Close though. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "who racked up twelve points"; "ultimately rack up": "rack up" may be too informal for an encyclopaedia
 * Very well. Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "the score at 50 to 27": until now I think you've unsistenlty been using the "50–27" style
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "by Stewart missed; but": I think if you're using "but" a comma would be more appropriate than a semicolon
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "In the semi final": not "semifinal" or "semi-final"?
 * Fair dinkum. |Dominant Gliders cruise into Semi Final v USA Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "down to the last second, with Team USA's Rose Hollermann missing one from inside the paint": I'm not sure it applies, but you may want to read WP:PLUSING
 * Eeek! Tony1! Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It apears you can summon him by invoking his name. ;) Curly Turkey (gobble) 08:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't the "wikinews" links go in "exteranl links"?
 * The MOS says: More precisely, box-type templates such as shown at right have to be put at the beginning of the last section of the article (which is not necessarily the "External links" section) so that boxes will appear next to, rather than below, the list items. Do not make a section whose sole content is box-type templates Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time to review. Much appreciated. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I totally forgot to come back to this article. I'm leaning towards support (especially since you've given into "the Man" with those hyphens), but I still don't like the "admitted" and "acknowledged"—they seem to give these opinions the weight of truth. Curly Turkey (gobble) 06:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. I've switched "admitted" and "acknowledged" to "said". I've also switched to the compound (British) form, having figured out the Round8 template. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:08, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Support on prose. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:12, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Comments Tony  (talk)  13:17, 8 February 2014 (UTC) Tony  (talk)  02:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Third sentence: could the names be within parentheses to avoid the colon semicolon colon jumble?
 * Split the sentence in two. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Any reason for the capped R in "Round robin"?
 * Nope, De-capped. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Suggest semicolon after "Canada", given the shortness of the subsequent sentence and its close follow-on.
 * "However, they won their final match against the Netherlands to finish at the top of their pool. They went on ..."—second "they" might better as "the Gliders", or "Australia".
 * Your edit could drop the "they". Tony   (talk)  02:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "the Australia women's national wheelchair basketball team, known as the Gliders"—what a clunky title, not use "Australian". I suppose nothing can be done about it now. But this string is almost exactly how the very opening starts. Do we need to be explicitly told so soon? Just "the Gliders" would do. "Prior to" -> "Until" might work, unsure.
 * Yes, per BEGIN. If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence. Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I fought against the clunky naming standard, but it is wiki-wide.
 * So why repeat this long clunky title so that the lead and first section start almost the same way? Do we need to be told again, soon after the opening, about the naming equivalence? Tony   (talk)  02:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you are suggesting. I introduce the team and its name quickly so I can use "Gliders" thereafter instead of the cumbersome (on Wiki) official form. That the team has a name was queried, and I had to prove reliable sources. The lead is no more than a summary of the article. The MOS requires that the article and the lead have to be able to be split up and run separately. Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "The official announcement of the 2011–12 team"—it's the membership or composition of the team, not the team, I think.
 * Yes, done. We had some problems with editors from other countries here. Unlike other countries, the team is not thrown together for the Paralympics; it exists all the time, with the players and coaches in constant contact with each other. I have prepared articles on the new players, but am waiting for the World Championships before moving them to the main space. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * " The team of twelve included nine veterans with 15 Paralympic Games between them"—mixed formats. I myself would write 12 nine 15, even though MOS suggests expanding all or none in a clutch. But no one is satisfied at the moment.
 * team-mate
 * Changed to "fifteen". Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "games, having"—try without comma ... might be smoother?
 * Removed. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't like the prominence of the boxes advertising Wikinews down the side. Is there a reason they can't be put into an "External links" section? And in any case why the ugly bold-plus-italics.
 * Because there isn't an External links section and the MOS forbids creating one just to hold the boxes. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Even so, the lewd boxes, italicised, bolded, and far larger than necessary, need to be toned down a lot. Why are there multiple boxes? I'm opposing this FAC until something is done about them. And remember that WMF sites are not RSs. Tony   (talk)  02:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The article is not sourced from WMF sites. Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The line you gave to Curly Turkey above about Australian English is ... to be polite ... false. Teammate or team-mate, please. Same for semifinal.
 * Those forms are deprecated, as far as I know... The Commonwealth Style Guide says not to use the hyphenated forms any more. Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Commonwealth Style Guide being some new Tory monarchist/colonial code for what used to be the Australian Govt Publishing Manual? I'm appalled if so, and disbelieving that it would suddenly deprecate hyphenation. In any case, I'm afraid the AGPM carries absolutely no weight in the language, and just as well. Please use normal forms—either closed or hyphenated, as CT suggested. Tony   (talk)  09:26, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's just called the style guide now. It's an "an outstanding Australian reference standard for all those who understand the value of effective communication." Buy your copy here. Anyhow, all you have to do to convince a tin hat wearing, tree hugging leftie like me is produce a reliable source WP:RS to back up what you're saying. Unfortunately "Tony on the talk page" doesn't usually pass muster. Sorry bout that. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:49, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose until the hyphens are fixed to comply with WP:MOS. Tony   (talk)  14:09, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The spelling complies with the MOS per WP:ENGVAR. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:57, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not accepting it. It's weird and unusual, and en.WP is not for Australian followers of that styleguide (of whom there are few). It's for all English-speakers, and needs to make the reading experience as easy as possible. Tony   (talk)  01:31, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Your argument that articles must be written in American English is not accepted. However, I have made the change. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:39, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * AmEng tend to hyphenate less than BrEng and AusEng—let's get it around the right way. But Americans would always hyphenate those compounds. Please disregard whatever seems to be coming out of AGPM, if indeed that is what is actually coming out. Tony   (talk)  13:48, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Comments
I tried, but couldn't get beyond the opening paragraph. The title states that the article is about the 2012 Paralympic team. Fine, but the structure of sentence 1 implies that the article is actually about the 2011–12 team, which happened to play at the 2012 Paralympics. Sentence 2 ("The official announcement confirming the 2011–12 team was made in July 2012"): how could a team for (part of?) 2011 be announced more than six months after that year had ended? I sneaked a look at the main text, but found no explanation there either. Sentence 3 ("The team of twelve included nine veterans"...): What is a veteran? It's a vague term. The sentence implies that it's based on previous Paralympic participation, but it's not clear. Sentence 4 ("There were three newcomers"...): What is a newcomer? New to the team is what I thought of first. Sentence 5 ("The Gliders had won silver at the 2000 Summer Paralympics"): But sentence 1 tells us that the 2011–12 team was the Gliders.

Too much is required of the reader, who is likely to be confused by the opening and put off from continuing. It looks like it's been spun out of a broader article, without enough changes to compensate for the loss of context. EddieHugh (talk) 19:47, 15 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The article has not been spun off from the broader article. I've made some slight rewording to try and make these points clearer. "Veteran" and "newcomer" means "to the Paralympics". In wheelchair basketball, the Paralympics is the Big Show.
 * Unlike teams from some other countries, the Gliders exist on a permanent basis. They have a full time coach (Tom Kyle) and assistant coach (David Gould). The players are scattered about the country and the world, but are in constant contact with the coaches. The team comes together for regular training camps and tournaments. And of course for a Paralympic year when they will be full-time players for the preceding year. However, the Paralympic rules (and those of some other tournaments) allow for only twelve players. So the team has to be whittled down. (This occurs in other sports too.) Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:53, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Comments from John
I will mainly focus on prose at first look.


 * Quarterfinal, quarter-final or quarter final?
 * We have two superfluous howevers in the Gold medal section.
 * "took a rebound and finally scored" would be just as good without the "finally"

More to come I am sure. --John (talk) 20:38, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I think we've decided to use the hyphenated form. The British sources consistently use "quarterfinal" while the Australian ones use "quarter final".
 * Remove the "finally" and two "howevers". This is one of my favourite parts of the MOS. It says: However, views which are properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions... editorial irony and damning with faint praise have no place in Wikipedia articles. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:54, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Mine too. Could we get a better source than The Sun for the Marshmallow nickname if it is important? Does Australian English use "tie" or something else for being level on points? --John (talk) 00:34, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The original source decayed so I used the Sun source. I've added a second source. I was rebuked by FIBA for calling it the Marshmallow, but I've kept the names as they were during the Games. So what Londoners call the O2 is consistently the North Greenwich Arena in the article. Australian English is heavily influenced by cricket, so a sharp distinction is made between a tie and a draw. Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:57, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Image review
 * Lead caption: probably worthwhile to explicitly state which of the two teams shown are the Gliders
 * File:IPC_logo_(2004).svg (in the portal bar) is based on File:Chinese_Taipei_Paralympic_Flag.svg, which is tagged as missing info and which has a licensing tag that does not make sense. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:28, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Graham Colm (talk) 17:17, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.