Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ayumi Hamasaki/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:15, 31 July 2008.

Ayumi Hamasaki

 * Nominator(s): User:Thanatous
 * previous FAC

Self-nomation. I started work on the article in November of last year, at which time it was in need of cleanup: it lacked references, there were formatting errors, etc. Having undergone two peer reviews (which can be found here and here) and having recently passed the Good Article review, I believe that this article satisfies the Featured Article criteria: it is well-referenced, comprehensive (without going into unnecessary detail), and is neutral. The Habitual Nose-Picker Sometimes Known as Thanatous (talk) 02:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment En dashes needed for the Year column in the " Concerts" section Gary King ( talk ) 03:03, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed, thanks. The Habitual Nose-Picker Sometimes Known as Thanatous (talk) 03:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * At least two problems here. First, the English seems unpolished. Here's a sample (stripped of footnotes): Hamasaki's succeeding studio album, Rainbow (2002), was her first album to incorporate English lyrics. Although she did not compose to the extent that she did on I am..., Hamasaki was still heavily involved in the production of the album. The album incorporated a potpourri of musical styles and influences: Rainbow contained rock- and trip-hop-influenced tracks as well as "summery", "up-tempo" songs and "grand gothic" arrangements. Here's how I might reword that: Hamasaki's next studio album, Rainbow (2002), was her first to include English lyrics. Although she did not compose as much as for I am..., she was still heavily involved in the production. The album incorporated a potpourri of musical styles and influences, with rock- and trip-hop-influenced tracks as well as "summery", "up-tempo" songs and "grand gothic" arrangements. And here's a second (again stripped of a footnote): Some of Hamasaki's promotional videos are grand expenditures as well: the promotional videos of three songs, "fairyland", "my name's WOMEN", and "JEWEL" are among the most expensive music videos ever made, making Hamasaki the only non-American to hold such a distinction. My first attempt: Some of Hamasaki's promotional videos cost a lot as well: those of three songs, "Fairyland", "My name's women", and "Jewel" are among the most expensive music videos ever made, costing more than any video by any other non-American. Secondly, there's a bizarre use of capitalization. For all I know, Hamasaki may like "my name's WOMEN," etc, but assuming that she doesn't spell out "double you oh em ee en" it's "Women" or "women". (Indeed, this is so even if she does spell it out: consider Aretha Franklin's "Respect".) The "Concerts" section is a particularly odd collection of UNNEEDED CAPITALIZATION. See this for guidance. Morenoodles (talk) 09:23, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Edited the Rainbow paragraph and fixed the capitalization errors, thanks. However, I'm not sure about using "cost a lot as well" in the section about her music videos. It just seems unprofessional to me. But I'd like to get the feedback of other editors first. The Habitual Nose-Picker Sometimes Known as Thanatous (talk) 20:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You've zapped all (or almost all) of the instances of POINTLESS CAPITALIZATION: good. However, I do think that the prose needs more work. I've just gone through the introduction, doing such things as converting a lot of instances of "Hamasaki" to "she" or "her". To me, this doesn't merely save syllables, the result is a lot more idiomatic. Morenoodles (talk) 05:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And a question. Why the links at the end to all those official sites? (Does any of the non-English sites have an advantage over the English one for readers of English?) Morenoodles (talk) 09:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The foreign-language sites have some news and information that the English one doesn't (and vice versa). However, to most English users, they probably would not be of much use (this is, of course, assuming that most English-speakers don't read Japanese or Chinese fluently). The Habitual Nose-Picker Sometimes Known as Thanatous (talk) 18:44, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * OK Morenoodles (talk) 05:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE.
 * Fixed; replaced Template:Citation. Thanks. The Habitual Nose-Picker Sometimes Known as Thanatous (talk) 06:01, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What makes the following sites reliable sources?
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20051217103237/http://www.avexnet.or.jp/english/ayu/#profile
 * It's an archive of a page of Hamasaki's official site.
 * http://www.enotes.com/contemporary-musicians/hamasaki-ayumi-biography
 * I checked the facts against his references (South China Morning Post, Times International), and it checks out; I thought it would be more economic to use one reference rather than three.
 * Generally it's safer to use the best references you can, with printed news media sources being one of the better types you can use. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All right, I'll just use the print references then. Thanks. The Transmogrifier (talk) 01:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * http://metropolis.co.jp/biginjapan/379/biginjapaninc.htm
 * It is published by GPlusMedia, a company that publishes some of Japan's most popular English-language newspapers; their clients include Oracle and Hilton; they published the official site of the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan.
 * Keep in mind this is a living person, so we need to make sure that the sourcing is the best possible. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the magazines they publish are reliable, so... The Transmogrifier (talk) 01:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.japanvisitor.com/index.php?cID=416&pID=1560&pName=ayumi-hamasaki (I'm not sure that using a travel site for a biography of a living person is the best idea)
 * You're right. I'll use a more reliable source.
 * Has this been replaced? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's been replaced. The Transmogrifier (talk) 18:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20070814020743/http://www.askmen.com/women/singer_300/383c_ayumi_hamaski.html
 * It's an archive of a page from Askmen.com, a website owned by News Corporation and Fox Interactive Media.
 * Yes, but does the site itself have a reputation for reliablity? Or is it more of a blogspot? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's reliable. The Transmogrifier (talk) 01:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is it reliable though? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not a self-published source; it is not extremist or a promoter of fringe theories; content cannot just be submitted by anyone (there are hired columnists); and content is overseen by a team of editors. The Transmogrifier (talk) 18:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * http://avexnet.or.jp/ayu/en/special/rainbow/index2.html
 * Official site.
 * http://www.discogs.com/
 * I suppose it isn't very reliable, as it's a wiki-ish site.
 * Has it been replaced? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's been replaced with the official record company's site. The Transmogrifier (talk) 18:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.tokyograph.com/
 * I checked it against it sources, and it's factually accurate. But I found the original source, so I'll just use that.
 * Has it been replaced? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I replaced it with the original source. The Transmogrifier (talk) 18:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.yesasia.com/
 * It was officially affiliated with Avex Trax earlier this year to sell Ayumi Hamasaki merchandise.
 * But does that fact make it reliable? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as information concerning Ayumi Hamasaki, yes, since it was written by an Avex team member. The Transmogrifier (talk) 01:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.7days.ae/
 * All I can say is that it's the biggest English-language newspaper in the United Arab Emirates, but other than that...
 * http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/archives/cool/00-10-12/hamasaki.html
 * This site is officially affiliated with the Japanese government.
 * But not part of the government? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it has two URLs (both lead to the same site): one with a .com and one with a .go.jp; the latter can only be used by Japanese government sites, so I guess it's actually part of the government. The Transmogrifier (talk) 01:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I'd be a lot more comfortable with something saying it's affliated with the government besides it's url. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's the official government site; it lists a link to Web Japan on the front page and here also. The Transmogrifier (talk) 18:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/data/199000.html
 * This site is owned by CBS Interactive.
 * Yes, but as I understand it, a lot of the information is user-submitted. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the official soundtrack lists the songs in question, but can I use it as a reference? The Transmogrifier (talk) 03:11, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, for soundtracks, you can use a primary source for the information. It's perfectly okay to use the soundtrack itself to source what is on the soundtrack. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Referenced the original soundtrack. The Transmogrifier (talk) 18:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.irmnet.com/usn/chef.html
 * Official site of the program.
 * Was a decision ever reached on United World Charts reliablity?
 * The chart itself was deemed non-notable and its ranking scheme arbitrary. So, no, the chart should not be used. indopug (talk) 19:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Removed reference to the chart. The Transmogrifier (talk) 20:05, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Removed reference to the chart. The Transmogrifier (talk) 20:05, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The following sites are in a foreign language but are not so noted in the footnotes
 * http://www.sponichi.co.jp/entertainment/meikan/ha/hamasakiayumi.html (current ref 1)
 * http://www.oricon.co.jp/news/rankmusic/46603/ (current ref 8)
 * You are using multiple pages of the "Empress of Pop" and "I have very clear ideas of what I want" articles from Time Magazine, but the bibliographic information is inconsitent between the various footnotes.
 * Make sure you've listed authors when known. The Time articles have authors listed so they should be given in the footnotes also.
 * Current ref 86 (The DIY route to stardom) is lacking a publisher.
 * Fixed.
 * Current ref 89 is lacking a title.
 * The title of the TV series is Talk Asia. The particular episode with the interview wasn't titled anything special.
 * Otherwise sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. I was not able to evaluate the reliablity of the non-English sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:56, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Reviewing only image licensing: I'm not sure that the Boss Coffee screencap is useful. Otherwise it looks good. --NE2 12:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well-written and well-cited. Therefore I support, although I am not the best person to judge the prose.--Yannismarou (talk) 16:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Checking suitability of Japanese-language online references:
 * What is the point of refs 3 and 35? Is it just to show that she had songs released under the Drizzly label? The reference links are currently to product information pages, where you can order items. There must be a news report or press release somewhere regarding this. As I see it, these two references are unsuitable.
 * Replaced the reference with the official site. The Transmogrifier (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ref. 60 is probably not needed. The information is already cited sufficiently by Ref. 61. Ref. 60 is just a personal message from Hamasaki. Maybe, it's fine, I'm not sure.
 * Just getting the information "from the horse's mouth" for an extra level of verification. Also, since it's a personal affair, and the singer has been secretive about the circumstances, there's obviously going to be a lot of speculation and whatnot, so presenting the singer's side of it "evens it out", so to speak. The Transmogrifier (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's probably acceptable as it was released through the record company. --Polaron | Talk 15:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ref. 72 is also borderline. It links to the marketing page for the movie. The point of the reference is to verify the some information regarding the movie. Isn't basic info about the movie found in some entertainment magazine report?
 * I found an Oricon Style mini-article about the movie; however, what's wrong with using the official site? It's reliable, and it's only being used as a reference for the plot of the movie. If it were sales figures or something like that, then it would probably be best to get the information from a disinterested third-party source, but Avex isn't likely to lie about the plot to make the movie seem better. The Transmogrifier (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's fine with me. As a rule though, I would prefer we not use publicity releases as references. --Polaron | Talk 15:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Used the Oricon article instead. The Transmogrifier (talk) 15:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ref. 118 links to a commercial site product information page. Ref. 117, which is a press release, is sufficient for what you're trying to reference.
 * Ref. 117 doesn't mention the collaborations with Panasonic and Ash & Diamonds. The Transmogrifier (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If there's no other reference available, I suppose we're stuck with it then. --Polaron | Talk 15:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I found a Barks (Japanese music magazine, like Billboard) article on it, so I'll use that. The Transmogrifier (talk) 15:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ref. 119 - I don't think Yahoo Japan is an authoritative source for the spelling of the movie. Does the movie not have an official website or something?
 * No, but the singer's official website lists the title in kanji/kana, so I'll use that. The Transmogrifier (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * --Polaron | Talk 23:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - I've made some changes to the lead and elsewhere, and have a few more comments.
 * There are still at least two references to the United World Chart in the text, which has apparently been deemed not notable. A few other comments:
 * Gah, I missed that. Removed mentions, thanks. The Transmogrifier (talk) 03:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The split, which came as a surprise, as reporters had speculated that Hamasaki and Nagase would wed, prompted various rumors among Japanese media speculating the cause of the split. Hamasaki, however, has yet to confirm a reason. - very oddly structured sentence
 * Reworded: "As reporters had been speculating the Hamasaki and Nagase would wed, the split came as a surprise and prompted various rumors among Japanese media concerning the cause of the separation. Hamasaki, however, has not released details about the split." The Transmogrifier (talk) 03:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * nineteen of which were western nations - any use of "Western" to mean "Western civilization" should be capitalized
 * Fixed, thanks. The Transmogrifier (talk) 03:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Is the speculation about the cause of her hearing loss from one or more of the sources? Speculation about the medical history of a living person should be very specifically cited, I think.
 * Yes, one of the sources speculated that it was tinnitus, the other, Menniere's. The Transmogrifier (talk) 03:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The footnotes should probably be moved to be immediately following the named condition then. Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed, thanks. The Transmogrifier (talk) 03:17, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If the source for the Avex stock price dropping explicitly says there's a causal connection, make that explicit in the article. Don't just imply it.
 * Fixed, thanks. The Transmogrifier (talk) 03:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * he influence of Hamasaki's music, sometimes considered one of the major forces in shaping Japan's current music trends,[79] has been attributed to the "progressive sound" of the music as well as her self-penned lyrics,[79] while critics credit clever marketing strategies for Hamasaki's success. - another run-on sentence
 * Changed to "The influence of Hamasaki's music, sometimes considered one of the major forces in shaping Japan's current music trends, has been attributed to the "progressive sound" of the music as well as her self-penned lyrics;critics, however, credit clever marketing strategies for Hamasaki's success". The Transmogrifier (talk) 03:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Also among the artists whom Hamasaki has shown admiration for are American musicians Michelle Branch, Kid Rock, and Joan Osborne as well as Japanese artists as Seiko Matsuda, Rie Miyazawa, and Keiko Yamada; - badly worded, and extra as
 * Changed to "Hamasaki has also shown admiration for Michelle Branch, Kid Rock, and Joan Osborne, as well as Japanese artists including Seiko Matsuda, Rie Miyazawa, and Keiko Yamada".
 * Her remixes, found on many of her records including her remix albums, European releases, singles, and vinyls, span different genres - badly worded
 * Changed to "Her remixes, found on many of her records, span [...]"; I guess from reading the rest article it can be inferred that her discography includes the removed list. The Transmogrifier (talk) 03:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I now support. Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The wordiness I mentioned weeks ago lingers. Here's a sample chosen pretty much at random, with three comments indexed in subscript: In a January 8, 2008 entry on her TeamAyu blog,(1) Hamasaki revealed that an inoperable condition, possibly tinnitus[5] or Meniere's Disease,[66] had caused her to become completely deaf in her left ear. She disclosed in a statement(2) that she had been diagnosed with deafness in 2006 and that the problem dated back to 2000.[73] Supposedly as a result of her hearing loss, Avex experienced a thirteen-yen decrease(3) in its stock price.[74] And now my comments: (1) The location of the revelation can be relegated to a footnote. (2) I don't understand the difference between disclosure in a statement and plain disclosure; conceivably the former means a press release but if so then this too can be relegated to the footnote. (3) Unless it's a large percentage of an unusually low stock price, 13 yen sounds very little. Anyway, simpler to say that Avex stock dropped by X percent. The thing to do here is to print out the article on paper and read it out to somebody else, watching to see when that second person's eyes glaze over. Cut, cut and cut, with a red pen. NB this is not a vote against promotion to FA, because if I vote against I should then stick around with an open mind and prepare to be impressed and to change my mind, but that won't be possible because I'm likely to be away on vacation. Morenoodles (talk) 09:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Definite oppose—sorry to come along so late. This is not fixable in time. The prose is technically faulty, seriously so, and the tone is wrong for an encyclopedia in far too many places.
 * Ref. previous reviewer's "wordiness". Yep. "She is also the first Japanese artist to have her first original eight studio albums top the Oricon charts,[6] as well as the Japanese female artist with the most number-one singles, most Top 10 singles, highest singles sales, and most million-seller singles (the last shared with band Pink Lady and singers Namie Amuro and Hikaru Utada.)[7]" This is hard on our readers. Why not split it? Remove "also", which weakens the flow. "artist whose original ... topped ..." ... [semicolon after "-seller singles"? then add "she" to the next clause?]
 * Ungrammatical: "her father had left the family when she was three and never came into contact with her since." There's a problem in the tense of "came" plus "since", I think.
 * "Because her mother was always working"—a looseness that's OK in oral mode, but not here. Didn't she sleep?
 * Another snake: "At the age of fourteen, she moved from Fukuoka to Tokyo to take various modeling stints as well as acting jobs in such productions as doramas like Miseinen and b-movies like Gakko II and Ladys Ladys!! Soucho Saigo no Hi." Why not "14", to shorten it a little? Remove "various". "to model and to act in such productions as doramas (like M ...). Oh, this is not good.
 * much success—much is unquantifiable, and we like precision at WP. It's informal. Ouch "got good grabs", no, this is the wrong tone. I'm not proceeding! Tony   (talk)  09:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Point taken; I guess this article does have quite a ways to go (prose-wise, at least). Where might I find collaborators or someone to give a thorough critique of this article, though? The projects the article is part of won't be of much help; Wikiproject Japan doesn't have a "request for collaboration" or anything like that, and Wikiproject Biography's "request for collaboration" is a bit...dead. The two peer reviews the article has undergone haven't mentioned any serious prose issues, so... The Transmogrifier (talk) 01:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.